My main system is a tube system, tube amps, tube pre-amps, etc. I am in a choice of a new tube or R-2R ladder DAC. I have no doubt about a tube DAC, but I also have heard a lot of good things about the R-2R ladder DACs. May any of you share your opinions?
Try both, or three, or four! I alternative based music genre, mood, low level listening vs LOUD, and whatever I’m looking for that, day, night, etc. Integrated tube amps, a 300b SET, a 300b driving 845s and a vintage SS Crown DC300A, a superstar performer in its day, and still. Klipsch Horns, Focal Arias, early JMLabs, Vienna Acoustics and 4 way vintage Infinity’s for the Crown.
DACs include Pontus II fed by an IRIS DDC from a fan-less mini PC and ethernet wired Qobuz. My best sounding combo, detail, expansive soundstage depth, holographic presentation, the Klipsch disappear. A Topping D90LE, one of the highest measuring SS chip DACs ever. Detail, detail, ,detail, but not harsh or fatiguing. Not as expansive soundstage as the R2R, perhaps more pinpoint id of instruments and vocals. Definition of transparent.
Next up is a quad Cirrus chip Topping. Paired with the Crown and Infinity’s is a warm, tight, big sound. Even my older CXN V2 with its fixed upsampling and ancient, by today’s standards, burr brown chips sound very musical paired with the 300b amp and slightly less resolving JMLabs and Vienna Acoustics speakers.
Next up on order is a Musical Paradise MP-DX with ess chips and tubes in the analog output stage. It’ll go up against the Pontus II and my reference 300b/845 amp. Curious how that will compare, will let y’all know. (It was either that or a new Browning skeet shotgun. The DAC is 1/3 the cost! But I’ll probably end up with both before all said and done.)
Your best decision, in my opinion and experience, is stick with tubes to get the best of digital and analog. I have an all-tube system (Octave MRE 220's with SBB) and an Octave Jubilee Pre). Admittedly, my server is all SS (Antipodes K50).
I bought the Lampizator Pacific DAC w/300B tubes. It is the best audio purchase I have ever made. The Lampi Pacific produces an analog-like sound, which rivals the best turntable, tonearm, cartridge and phono-amp combination money can buy, but with noticeably more bandwidth in the audio spectrum - so it ups the ante in terms of delivering unprecedented realism.
Wait for it! Soon the sound of the skeptics and critics, who will pull out their rifles filled with homemade amo cast from the forges of their misery, envy and frustration. Fire away my sadlizes! I won't be able to hear you over the beautiful sound of my Pacific DAC.
@bigkidz, That sounds like a very fun listening experience. I know that you have several transports to choose from. Were you all using the Pro-Ject RS2 Transport? Charles
@hshifi - "I would say stick to chip based DACs with tube gear" Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Just finished a 4 hour listening session with tube Sabre 32 bit chip dac and a R2R DHT dac in an all tube system preamp and Class A mono blocks. We all said to each other, that not one of us has heard any system ever that sounded like this, ever.
I've had my Musical Paradise mp DAC mk3 for a while. It has user changeable caps (no soldering) and uses both 5 and 6.3 volt rectifiers, and 12 or 6 volt signal tubes. You can even change the chipsets from AKM's to ESS Pros. I've done a couple r2r's but keep going back to my MP. It will do up to DSD 512 and will handle high sampling rates. I like the fact that I can change to sound by swapping tubes and caps.
I had been using a DAVE + M Scaler as input to my Eddie Current tube headphone amp, and ended up replacing it in that chain with a Holo May R-to-R DAC, which I liked better there. I've since moved the Chord gear to my 2-channel system to replace an MSB 'Analog' DAC....
debating technologies in d/a conversion as well as differing output stage types is fun fodder to banter around for audiophiles
one can muse and debate to no end (and no end result)
but at the end of the day it is about the quality of the engineering to make any chosen tech/configuration work, and the taste/ear of the designer/listener who makes and choses the product
the very best sounding dacs out there use all different methods of getting to the desired goal and level of sonic purity and signature desired
Check out the Border Patrol SE-i. R2R DAC, tube rectified power supply. Doesn't do DSD or crazy-high PCM sampling rates, but sounds heavenly to my ears. And, Gary is great to deal with.
As others have said, it's not a tube vs r2r comparison, but rather tube vs. solid state and/or r2r vs delta-sigma.
My main amp is a Line Magnetic LM-218ia -- an 845-based integrated SET amp. I have two DACs: a Black Ice D-S Tube DAC (GlassFX Tube DAC DAC DSD Wifi) and an Audio GD r2r Solid State DAC (R2R-R1). They are both connected to the SET amp and both play through the same Omega Outlaw Super 3XRS speakers (with built in 8" subs).
*the Black Ice was modified by Radu Tarta with some nice upgrades.
I find both of these DACs to be excellent, and honestly they are more similar than they are different even though they are using different conversion techniques and utilizing different output stages. In neither case would I say one or the other was a bad match for my SET amp -- they are both excellent.
If pressed I would say that I prefer the Audio-GD. I think it's a bit more revealing and I find the imaging and separation between instruments to be slightly more defined. Both of these DACs are in the $900-$1200 range and I just think they are both a testament to the quality of sound that is attainable at a relatively accessible price (by audiophile standards where an interconnect can cost as much and does far less).
Actually just citing some successful alternative examples that DAC designers apply to avoid reliance on the ubiquitous OP-amp. My DAC I/V conversion is via a single passive resistor and has very good sound quality in my opinion. SW1X audio for example offers the choice of active transistor discrete or passive resistor with good outcomes from either option. I/V conversion has an influential role in determining sound quality that I believe is underappreciated by many. Charles
@charles1dadsI I must be missing your point,since i addressed why one of those options is commonplace and sub optimal, and the other has serious issues. Could you clarify what you are pointing out, or want to know? G
@itsjustme, Some DAC designers prefer the sound and simplicity of a passive resistor and want to avoid the use of OP-amps due to what they consider to introduce sonic degrading NFB. I do recognize that another approach is active I/V conversion via a discrete circuit again avoiding OP-amps.
I know that Audio Note utilizes transformers for I/V conversion duty. Given their reputation for very good sounding DACs I have to assume that the chosen transformers are of excellent quality. Charles
Learning now! Entirely passive seems like a tough proposition since the output will have a variable impedance and a high one at that. For a home/hobby project where you can control the next stage maybe its feasible - but in commercial proactive that sounds, to me, like suicide.
Transformers are a natural for the task, but are typically big and expensive ( and most that are not , are not very good) . I have not experimented with any custom ones. I plan to use discrete circuitry, combining FETs and BJTs where each as an advantage - and keeping it pretty simple. (what was it that Einstein said? "as simple as possible, but no simpler" :-)
The output characteristics of bitstream DACs vary quite a bit too- some only give a voltage output - meaning an onboard opamp i presume. The real world gets messy. But again, still learning. All my DACish work so far has been on the other end of the chain - input, isolation, clocking etc.
@itsjustme, Do you have any particular opinion regarding I/V conversion method, i.e. passive (resistor) versus active. Transistor vs transformer vs OP-amps? Charles
there seems to be some confusion with terminology. Multibit = R2R. They can be discrete resistors soldered onto a PCB or thin or thick film hybrids on a IC; but they are both ladders, and both take in PCM and spit out PAM.
Bitstream is a different animal, based on pulse density modulation.
Arguments can be made for and against chips based R2R but the real reason for the proliferation of discrete DAC is that R2Rs vanished from the market place long ago. AD has re-introduced one that is used by several, including Schiit, but it is not designed for audio and glitches.
Whether you place a tube I/V and filter after it or the same deal with transistors is an independent question. tubes of course help get glowing reviews (ducks for cover after bad pun).
My SET w/ KT 88's and Denafrips Ares 2 ($800) is fantastic. Soundstage goes Waaaaay back behind the spkrs. talk about holographic. Or the Pontus is double the Ares2 in price w/ slightly better performance.
@jsal3689 and others with Denafrips Terminator experience, I am about to home audition the Merging+NADAC. I am wondering why I'm not seeing it mentioned in most DAC chains? Do any of you have experience with the Merging? I am wondering what I may be able to AB with the Merging while I have it, but only if you have found something superior or equal in terms of air and realism. One note on the Merging, and what sold me on it versus others having observed it in the component stack in countless videos from hifi shows / events. It must be worthy if so many speaker manufacturers, etc. selected it for their demonstrations? It's top of the mark, price wise for me, so I need to make sure it's going to be the best bang for my buck. I hope this adds to this chain as something to consider since the terminator plus was mentioned and a piece I seriously considered, and may yet.
It would be helpful if you had a DAC and listed what you don’t like about it and what direction you want to go, otherwise we are just guessing on your preferences. Without context, all we can do is suggest DACs that we like rather meeting your preferences.
Hello, I would say stick to chip based DACs with tube gear unless you are going to a Holo May or a Denifrips Plus for DACs $5k or less which have a special over sampling function. Last but not least is the RME Black pro. It has tone controls. It will let you dial in the sound that you want. For $2k that is not bad. One of the best R2R DACs I have demoed was the Electrocompaniet. Very smooth without loss of detail. That’s the biggie. The loss of detail or sparkle when you pair DACs with tube gear. I have tested this. It’s about budget. If you can, please demo stuff on your system. If you cannot then heed my advise. The one I liked for the money was the first gen of the M2Tech young DAC. It had a touch of sibilant. When a friend installed it on his full Rogue tube system he said it was awesome. You can get these pretty cheap. If you want to take this to another level get an SBooster linear power supply for it. This sound will smoke a basic DAC. I hope this helped. This store in the Chicagoland area has this DAC. https://holmaudio.com/ I don’t run tube gear. If I did I would have this DAC for the price. It’s probably $1K with the SBOOSTER. You will have to check.
The Denafrips Terminator plus r2r is the best DAC I have ever owned. It sounds great with my Cary SLP-05 per and Primaluna Dialogue 7 Monoblocks. A friend of mine has the Ares II and it sounds good, especially for the cost. Here is a review from someone I trust. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xS8_iWwtCs&t=295s
I’m having difficulty with “or”. I bought my first external DAC and am really happy with it. No complaints at all. Then I bought another one of a different type “just to try it out”. It’s pretty damn good, too. The thing I’ve noticed is that the differences aren’t necessarily better, just different. There are shortcomings in each I don’t think I’d have ever noticed without the other to A/B compare. But I think I’m getting a better idea of my personal preferences and now I have 2 reference points for comparison when I inevitably start looking for my next DAC.
Choices are nice. There’s really no substitute for experience. “You can’t get what you want, ‘til you know what you want.”
Great experience with Aqua La Scala - R2R with tube output stage. It nicely blends with both SS and tube gear. I personally used it with a tube pre (Lamm) and SS monoblocks (MSB). It is detailed, yet very musically enjoyable.
@idolindian It would be helpful if you had a DAC and listed what you don’t like about it and what direction you want to go, otherwise we are just guessing on your preferences. Without context, all we can do is suggest DACs that we like rather meeting your preferences.
I use a Denifrips Ares ii with Vincent Audio Hybrid Pre / Power amps a really nice pairing. I have tried several tube amps but miss the really low bass I personally enjoy.
I've had very good results with a very rare DAC, a GeorgeMark Audio from the early 2100s. It's a tube gain stage with volume control and an MSB DAC board built in with tube output stage. I drive it with Cambridge CDX drive running into two Monarchy anti jitter stages in series.
Previous to this I used a Melos preamp with built in DAC and a tube output. Again excellent performance. Tubes seem to make good DAC output stages.
Solid-state IC DACs verboten? I feed the output from one into an integrated tube amplifier. Maybe that is how the system produces a well-defined and musical sound.
We make both tube DACs. One with the Sabre 32 bit chip and the other with the R2R board. The Sabre uses a single 6SN7 with a single rectifier (GZ34 - 5R4, etc.) and the R2R is a 101D direct heated triode design. They have similar sound characteristics, but the 101D is a much more sophisticated design.
In my own analysis of this it seems like the most compelling DACs in these categories may be: R2R Ladder: Denafrips Terminator Plus Holo Audio May KTE Tube: Doge Audio Clarity 7
Don’t put yourself in a corner. There are many excellent dacs besides R2R dacs the classic Multibit dacs are used still by many companies like Analog devises 1955 chips used by Briscati BB1704 used by several companies ,and other Multibit dacs which are R2R in practice they are all incorporated on one chipset and were very precision built all laser trimmed and very time consuming that’s a big reason they were discontinued . in fact Briscati upper dacs incorporate a choice of filters ,Multibit dac ,as well as R2R dac, as well as a great Roon ready streamer module.seperate DSD ,as well as high quality analog preamp section .
generalizations are not true and it really comes down to implementation.
Bingo. When they are true its someone using a brute forcet echnology to overcome design limitations. "I cant make it warm and natural so I'll throw in some tubes". Pass, with apologies to Nelson LOL.
Whys is tubes and R2R a choice? Why not both if you happen to think they are to your liking? Orthogonal decisions. Like "V8 or red car?" Anyway i personally think that choosing by technology type is not particularly valid. I can make FETs, BJTs and Tubes sound pretty much alike. Choose the product that you find musically enjoyable.
@idolindian, You were given excellent and wise advice from @verdantaudio. Don’t over generalize, implementation is more meaningful and worthy of consideration rather than strict R2R vs delta sigma dogma.
"I can show you warm, musical delta-sigmas and cold and bright R2Rs." Truth! Charles
I use Chord Qutest with 300B SET with Altec 604E 15" coaxial with compression horn mid-high driver. Qutest is very detailed and neutral sounding DAC. But with SET the sound is warm. They work great together. It is completely different league compared to my R2R Cary 303 mk1 CD player. I still use Cary 303 as transport.
I know there are good modern R2R DACs around. But I’m not sure that you need to soften sound if you have a tube amplifier.
You can't universally connect the preamp stage of a DAC into any power amp and expect great results. Sometimes you can but not always. If the amps are too sensitive or you have an impedance mismatch, you may not get a great result.
Tube vs R2R, again, don't assume all R2Rs are warm and engaging. I can show you R2Rs that are bright and cold. The analog stage matters greatly in terms of imaging and soundstage. Some R2Rs have tube output stages.
It is tough to make generalizations. There is a common belief that R2Rs are more musical, have more texture but are generally less detailed than delta-sigma counterparts.
Delta-sigmas have a reputation for being brighter, more clinical and more detailed and tubes will tame the brightness.
These generalizations are not true and it really comes down to implementation. I can show you warm, musical delta-sigmas and cold and bright R2Rs. The Rockna Wavedream Signature is one of the most detailed DACs I have ever heard (if not THE most) despite being R2R. Bricasti is one of the most musical DACs I have ever heard despite being a chip based delta-sigma.
What is your budget? What tube gear do you have? XLR or SE? This will help zero in on some items that you might want to consider.
I use the Eleven Audio Sagra ladder DAC and have been extremely please with the performance. The sound is very organic and detailed ( a rare combination) while still being dynamic. Good Luck!
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