Townshend Audio Podiums: The Full Review
To jump before you’re pushed, fall upon your sword, or even self-censor is sometimes a noble act. At other times it could be tantamount to paranoia. In my opinion censorship is dangerously close to dishonesty and often invites a misuse of power. I find it disturbing that the kind of censorship we once used to see described in communist countries is now becoming increasingly famiiar in the ’free’ West. Imagine if someone was to make some facile comments such as the following, some of which I’ve read here, you should still be allowed to read them, should you not? [Eg women are too stupid to be into Hi-Fi, the Chinese can’t make decent products, the 2020 US election was totally above suspicion, BLM are a peaceful organisation, we should trust all Hi-Fi reviewers, the Covid vaccine is 100% safe, Auto-tune is the best thing that happened to vocals, MP3 is crap, all digital sources sound exactly the same etc]. You are welcome to add any of your own, and let’s not pretend we don’t have any. We now live in an age where there doesn’t seem to be any public figure left who has not uttered words that someone, somewhere may find offensive - and I’m not just talking about the witch-hunt that follows Morrissey - even the sometimes robust talking Max Townshend may have once said a few things that some might bristle at. So what? We might do well to remember that censorship applies to the freedom and liberty of BOTH the writer and the reader. Surely it should be left up to the reader to decide the veracity of the words they are reading, should it not? How else are we to have these debates? Is this not a fundamental democratic right for every adult? If audiogon has a censorship policy in effect, perhaps it would be best to explain it some detail. On the other hand deliberate trolling is a real problem because it serves no purpose whatsoever, unless it can make you laugh of course... |
cd318 This isn’t exactly an audio issue but an issue like this can creep up in any great number of circumstances and it seems to me that it makes sense to deal with it wherever you encounter it. I agree with both the examples and the sentiments you expressed above. Who is fit, able, justified or competent to decide what I want, would like or otherwise absolutely have the right to read or hear? I am and you are not. The idea and practice of censorship seems to me to be close to if not absolutely no better than a crude form of control. It’s not important if I agree with it or not - it’s important that I can hear it, say it, write it. The George Carlin 7 forbidden words USSC case of many years ago was not only amusing but Carlin was certainly on point. I was interested in the post on the Townshend Podiums but it suddenly ended. Why, who wrote what could be that offensive? Millercarbon, ozzy and I were continuing notes on our experiences with these Podiums and I can't even find that discussion now. I understand this is a private forum and we have to play by the rules but then again??????? |
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Just added some new system pics, showing the Podiums, Pods, and a few other changes. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
millercarbon "I was interested in the post on the Townshend Podiums but it suddenly ended. Why, who wrote what could be that offensive? Millercarbon, ozzy and I were continuing notes on our experiences with these Podiums and I can’t even find that discussion now. I understand this is a private forum and we have to play by the rules but then again??????? Actually no, it is not a private forum. They have one here you pay money to do the same thing as here only with a smaller audience, so pay more get less. This one anyone anywhere in the world can view. It is public as public can be. In this case, again, perfectly within his rights to pull his own posts. Unforgivably irresponsible to do that to others. As I hope he is learning." My reference to this being a "private forum" was misunderstood. What I was referring to is the fact that non-governmental institutions are not required to assure your 1st and 14th Amendment rights of freedom of speech whereas governmental/governmental supported institutions absolutely must protect your free speech rights. "Private" entities can abridge your right to free speech by censorship or otherwise anytime they choose with no legal consequences. It is non-the-less an offensive practice but private entities are within their legal right to so piss people off. My reference to "private" had nothing to do with who could, or could not, view and participate -i.e. post, in the site |
Okay. Gotcha. In that case, still wrong, but for a different reason. The mods will probably pull this post, they hate it when I explain certain things. All internet sites such as this one are granted protection from prosecution for libel and other acts that would apply to things like newspapers and TV shows, on the theory these sites are public squares. If you were talking about a newspaper, where an editor reads everything first and then decides whether or not to publish, fine. But that is not what we have here. Not at all. This site, pretty much all websites, Facebook, Youtube for sure, are deemed the equivalent of the public square. If you call someone up on the phone and plan a bank robbery no one can sue the phone company as a co-conspirator. Websites such as this one are granted protections under USC Section 230 because they are supposed to be nothing more than a pipeline. As opposed to and distinct from newspapers that exercise editorial control over everything they publish. Therefore, if a website goes around pulling certain things as you think they are able to do, then yes indeed you are right they have the right to do that. But then they lose that protection and we also have the right to sue them. Today as things stand they are trying to have it both ways. Censor when they feel like it, while still claiming special protected status. You cannot have it both ways. The jury is still out. But I had some valuable information, intellectual property you might say, heck I will say it! Can't just go around stealing that and not expect someone eventually to come looking for their legal remedy. |
Millercarbon Not still wrong but for a different reason. You are talking about protection from libel suits for publication or re-publication. I am talking about the protection of 1st and 14th Amendment rights of free speech and who must protect it and who has no legal obligation to do so. Because I am protected from actions for libel has nothing to do with whether I must also abide by and protect your rights of free speech. I can delete your post if I don't agree with or otherwise deem it inappropriate and that has no bearing on my protection from libel. The comment I delete, for example, may be something to do with one's political views that I simply don't agree with and not at all libelous to begin with. I'm talking about an obligation and you are talking about a protection. This forum can delete any views it deems objectionable without in any way affecting its protection from actions for libel if in deed it has such protection - a government or government supported body cannot do so but must honor your rights of free speech. |
Just to let EVERYONE know, anyone can delete their own "Thread". You don't have to request anything... So if you don't want your stuff deleted then start the threads but don't delete them.. Everything else including YOUR thread can be deleted by the Moderators and YOU.. The report button is just that, to report.. I've used it for "buy this to make you're dong long" a couple of times.. 10 of those weird threads show up from Tim Buck Too.. 3-4 hours later still there.. Who's moderating what? A lot of the deleted STUFF is SELF imposed, just like what kenjit was doing... He'd start one of his rants, then delete the THREAD, not just his comments, EVERYONES... He's shown up a few times after that.. Different name, but he's still lurking, I have no doubt.. Regards |
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Podiums are indeed good. New pics show my Moabs are on Podiums with BDR Cones and Round Things. Podiums are so low-profile they only raised the Moabs an insignificant amount compared to what they were before, maybe about an inch. Don’t know. Didn’t measure the before and after height. Only location. They are precisely where they were before. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
Credit John Hannant. I gave him the weight and dimensions, he did the rest. These things being where they are you don't get down on the floor much to get a good look at them, but looking at the pictures I am reminded just how good they really do look. The paint is a special coating made in Texas, looks great and incredibly durable, not one mark from walking these 150lb speakers into position. Perfect width, about 1" wider than the Mobs, and about 3" deeper which is perfect to allow them to be placed a little further back for balance. |
@pmiller115, Carlin was certainly an interesting character. Unfortunately we heard very little about him here in the UK (or had anyone remotely equivalent) but there's still plenty of his stuff online. I've also tons of respect for Max Townshend. He's certainly not one of those trying to cash in on the sudden boom of interest in loudspeaker isolation. There are now even products (usually some type of foam block) specifically made for pro use in studios. Max was talking about this issue way back in the 1990s (if not even earlier). He seemed to have started off advocating pneumatic (air bladder) isolation and eventually graduating to using damped springs. It's obvious that he's given this subject plenty of careful consideration. It's also quite reassuring to know that these current podiums, with their considerable lineage are receiving some very good feedback. |
CD318 These podiums and the principles upon which they a re based is apparently another example of something hidden in plain sight. As I previously commented, it really makes you wonder how many other things that would produce considerable improvement have gone right over our heads only to be "discovered" by us years later. I am convinced that it is a hobby because you are compelled to continue the search for improvement even though it sometimes leaves you scratching your head wondering why you didn't "catch on" sooner. As I have also previously said, once you become convinced that no further improvement is possible or you are no longer interested in continuing the "search" for improvement, your system will become just a little bit more interesting to you than a chair or a coffee table. |
@pmiller115, Yes, there is definitely more to this hobby than just listening. As for missing the obvious or even going round in circles, I think the classic case has been the switch from the original rubber feet used on equipment (inc loudspeakers) back in the 60s and 70s to the recommended spikes in the 80s and onwards and then gradually a return back to rubber feet / isolation of today. Just why this happened is not clear but perhaps the prevailing audio fashion went from the 50s era warmth and richness to a more clean and lean sound in the 80s and onwards and is now returning back once more. Some, like our friend @mahgister, even recommend a second set of isolation springs to provide additional damping for the speaker top. "2 set of springs boxes instead of one with small difference in load on them will damp the internal resonance...It is very audible... Audible immediately in the naturalness of timbre....." Interesting times. I can still remember the original Townshend Rock turntable with its unique headshell damping trough. Wasn’t that the turntable that gave you rock solid bass? |
Then or now, I think most people buy the story as much as the sound. Hardly anyone ever bothers to compare. Not that it's all that easy to do even if you wanted. I started out like many do thinking the whole idea extremely farfetched and therefore not willing to spend a dime on what I know will turn out to be a wasted effort. But it is a hobby and I do have a keen interest and so I tried, first phone books and of course that made hardly any difference at all but the fact it made any difference was telling and so one thing led to another and soon I was trying all kinds of things. Along the way I learned that not only the material but the size and shape of the material makes a difference. For decades it seemed the last thing you wanted was something soft and squishy like a spring. Because sorbothane and other soft stuff like that did lower the noise floor and did reveal some detail but also sucked the life out of the music. Spikes on the other hand went completely the other way, only instead of sucking they are adding etch and emphasizing a top end that a lot of guys seem to mistake for detail. Now looking back it is clear all that was ringing, and all the different spikes and cones were tuning the ringing to what people like. Even today all that is going on with a lot of these things is people using different materials and shapes to tune out some of the more unpleasant peaks in the ringing. That is what Gaia do, they are sort of springy but too damped. Ordinary springs are better, at least in some ways, but have the resonance problem. Mahgister uses springs above and below and that is another way of tuning out some of the objectionable resonances that come with springs. If you have one sort of spring below with one mass it will have one set of resonant frequencies. If you then add another set with another mass it will have another and they will average out smoother. Similar to the way a lot of subs in a DBA is smoother and better than just one sub. The beauty of it is once you get the hang of it there are a whole lot of applications. Simply removing the hot glue from the board my crossover is mounted on and using some sorbothane for crude isolation improved the crossover. Rubber bands are a sort of spring and so I figured out a way to use them to hold my phono leads that reduces ringing and vibrations being transmitted up the cables into the tone arm. The opportunities are endless. |
Every once in a while I will notice an expression on my wife's face as I explain to her how moving the speaker an inch of two in one direction or another or how moving a plant in the listening room makes a difference, etc.. That expression I see on her face expresses exactly how I imagine I would be reacting to someone explaining things like this to me - EXCEPT, slight changes in speaker direction/elevation, moving inert things in a listening area, etc., etc. really do make a difference and as hobbyists we agree with and recognize those differences. Where else except in a forum of hobbyists could Millercarbon explain how rubber bands can improve the sound or me explaining how minute differences is speaker direction can make a difference and we all take that information as instruction, as progress and we appreciate it as that and not as a sign of mental instability? I, for one, after my positive experience with the Podiums will be exploring the feasibility and best means to isolate other components. |
It is going on like 30 years now that I have known cable elevators work. Read the comment on my System page, Deborah had her eyes closed when she "heard" me remove them. Done the demo for many others many times. Definitely beyond a shadow of a doubt for real. Only recently however did I come to understand why. People had all these theories, and I went back and forth. Now I am quite certain it is vibration control. Getting the cables up off the floor allows them to vibrate on their own with all the same improvements we hear with Podiums and Pods. I wasn't really certain of this until I tried the rubber band trick. That clinched it. The improvement was definitely there, and no other explanation is left. Once proven on speaker cables I did power cords, and then the interconnect. The phono lead took longer. Had to rig a block of wood with a couple nails into a rig to hold the phono leads. Once adjusted they are not touching the rack or anything else, and there is a bit of a strain relief curve going into the turntable. Right now the only two things left to be suspended are the sub amps and the step down transformer. Those two are still on Cones. Oh, and the AC. I should probably get something to suspend the AC from the meter. Right now it is nailed to joists just like in some non-audiophiles home. Or should I say non-serious audiophile? 😉 Time for me to get serious! 😂 Can't believe I crawled around under there painting TC and wrapping Mats and neglected to suspend the wires. What was I thinking???😂😂 |
Well thanks to MC and Tvad I am now listening to my system with the speakers sitting on a new set of Townshend Seismic Isolation Bars. They replaced IsoAcoustics Gaia II footers. After 2 hours of listening I am certainly most impressed. Too many sonic improvements to list here. I will boil it down to the fact that each individual instrument sounds more real and in focus while any last vestige of glare and noise is now gone! Most pleased. More fidelity and less other junk mixed in. |
I plan to talk to John about the Pods for use under my rack and/or individual pieces of gear. His products are not low priced, but I can see them staying in place for a lifetime unlike others I have tried or owned. In the end, cost of ownership may be a net savings vs less expensive and less effective products. |
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Thanks Tvad. John told me to order the Seismic Corners for my rack. The type S and Blue weight range. They will be perfect under my 200 pound Sound Anchors 5 level rack. Total weight with my gear is 340 pounds. I just looked at them on his site and they will be very easy to install. Great solution for me. Total of 8 pod cells on these Corners (2 per corner). Looking at some $1300 so this is a future goal. |
grannyring- I plan to talk to John about the Pods for use under my rack and/or individual pieces of gear. His products are not low priced, but I can see them staying in place for a lifetime unlike others I have tried or owned. In the end, cost of ownership may be a net savings vs less expensive and less effective products. This is a point I have been trying to make for a very long time now. When we buy a component it is good for anywhere from a few months to some years. It improves the system until we sell it, always at a loss, and spend more on a better one- that we hope will be better but often times turns out merely different. But a good tweak is pretty much forever. A lot of them don't really ever wear out. If we like what we have the tweak only makes it better. If its a great tweak like Pods it makes it a LOT better! Without changing the fundamental character of what we had, which is the big risk with component upgrades. My rack is so super massive I've never felt the need, but the more of you guys trying springs if you get good results I might just have to try it and see for myself. Some day. So many projects.... |
One of the key element of superiority of Townshend springs, save the fact they are well tuned and well designed, must be the damping method and it is of the utmost importance for the springs to be well damped.... (I dont own them, i affirm that repeating the positive reviews here and the glimpse i had in the inside of this product)... Then i decide to add something to damp my already very positive own springs solution... I added to my double asymmetrically compressed 2 sets of 4 springs boxes, one set over the finely tuned loaded speakers (around 80 pounds) and another under them (80 pounds +the speaker weight), some sorbothane spherical pieces duro 70, but with no sorbothane touching the speakers side (very important).... And the improvement was very audible.... I dont think i am too far from Townshend results now... And anyway my cost including the sorbothane piece is a liitle over 100 bucks.... S.Q./ price ratio over the roof.... |
The optimal amount of damping is very low, a few percent at most. Townshend accomplishes this by putting the spring inside a rubber bellows. A very small hole in the top plate allows a small amount of air to move in and out. Squeeze a Pod in your hand, you can hear this air whooshing in and out. Without the hole the air would be just another spring. With the hole it loses some energy each way, just enough to damp out resonant behavior. Zero moving parts, zero wear, very ingenious. Before going to Townshend I tried various plain springs and tried an experiment or two with sorbothane. But while I am pretty good and creative and put my share of work into it I cannot hold a candle to you, mahgister. 👍 |
Anybody enjoy being praised....Thanks... But truth is more precious....I am not crafty and my audio knowledge is minimalistic.... Truth is with only small amount of imagination and very basic materials, ANYBODY who DARE to try and experiment without esthetical consideration will obtain surprizing results inspired by many tweaks or costly device.... Then thanks but many others here are more knowledgeable and more crafty than me but dont dare because they dont need and dont mind to experiment with trivial materials at peanuts cost...Millercarbon being one and some others.... |
One can but admire the Alien Level technology and Swiss watch build quality of the Townshend Pods / Podiums.... $1800 of pure quality... https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/anyone-try-isoacoustics-gaia’s-and-townshend-seismic-podiums.... |
Funny you should mention, I was fine tuning my Moabs yesterday and once again impressed with how smoothly the level adjusters work even with these 150lb speakers, and how easy it is to get them perfectly level. As I recall, Ozzy noted in his review the Podiums are quite a bit better than the Gaia he had before. Thanks for the link and the reminder how good these things are. |
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I shall let folks draw their own conclusions as to the build quality and ‘Value’ of this much ‘hyped’ and ‘promoted’ product . |
Just installed the Podiums Taking the Persona 5f’s to a new level. For about 6% of the cost of the system sure gives a 15-20% boost. Love the ability to set the rake with a few twists of the knob. Everything is better. Will have to re tweak the swarm system though as the bass seems to have changed a bit. Will give it a few days for the system to settle back in. Definitely worth the cash. |
Millercarbon, I have a question for you, once I put the speaker on the podiums do I undo the top adjustment knobs all the way open until they click or do I just use them to adjust the podium so my speaker is level? nothing is bottoming out even when I put my speaker on the podium with the cells top adjustment knob screwed all the way down.
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