Total cost of ownership - how to reduce it
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To sound better than many great sounding tube amps you need to spend a lot more for that SS amp, and the difference will cover your tube cost for decades. I found a slightly used Dennis Had "Firebottle" single ended amp that is hand made by a circuit manipulating genius, and it is profoundly good. Needs efficient speakers...but still...I enjoy trying new tubes, looking at tube glow, talking to the tubes, dusting their shiny little heads...you're not likely to unsolder your transistors to look at them, and tubes provide that connection to life forces, space heaters, and better living through a steam punk esthetic. |
For me the need to downsize/simplify on the cusp of retirement has broadened “ownership cost” to include minimizing component number, footprint, weight and maintenance without significant sacrifice in musical enjoyment. Almost a year into the transition, I have weathered the learning curve of migrating from physical media and “separates” (TT/phono stage/CDT/DAC/linestage/monoblock amps - all tubed, along with 200 pound plus loudspeakers). I found myself doing so at a most opportune time. Music servers have matured, Roon exists and, most importantly, the current crop of integrated amps includes units with onboard DAC and Roon ready streaming capability. The Naim Uniti Star I use functions just like my old circa 1970 “receiver”. Back in that era you connected a TT into it and a pair of speakers out from it and you were done. Today server goes in and the Naim outs to my speakers. I have radio again along with “on demand” music (Spotify). The return to solid state amplification with the Naim was no biggie. My downsized loudspeakers weigh 65 pounds each and sound way good (ATC SCM40s). The makers of my gear have a solid reputation for reliability. This system fits easily into a multi use living room and will travel well if I must relocate. I’m in a real good place with cost/benefit as I define it. |
Thanks, jb0194 - interesting to know how downsizing can be done without too much sonic loss. Wolf_Garcia and Elizabeth - OK, tubes can be "too much", but does it need to be so? I agree that tubes give better sound (to my ears). That’s why I changed from a Krell FPB600 solid state system. I have had troubles, yes, but I think they can be solved. The main factor of component breakdown, I think, is time x heat. If you give a component a lot of heat it will last shorter. If this heat come from solid state or tube amps or preamps is not decisive. Class A solid state runs very hot too. To cool down - literally - my own cost of ownership, I now have two computer fans mounted on the wall behind the most heat-prone components of my system. After I adjusted them down to low volt, the fan spinning slower so I cannot hear it, still giving a cool breeze over the components, I am very happy., A 100 USD investment, or so, to increase the chance of components holding up. Even here in Norway, it can be come very hot in the summer, it was 32 celsius, a week ago. |
I tend to keep stuff until it fails or is just really old. I just retired my 12 year old HT receiver when I saw a deal for a new (refurb) one at a more than 50% discount. When something fails, or the remote is almost as hard to find as a diamond in my backyard, it goes. Sometimes it ends up on my PC sound system, but usually goodwill gets it. My stuff looks new at 25 years old. Some hints: If it gets much warmer than body temp, put a fan on it somehow. Suck the cat/dog hair/dust out of it once a year or so. Make SURE the fans work! My old PC's $$$ video card cooked itself when the fans literally fell apart due to them being molded out of defective plastic. I kept seeing white dusty looking stuff on the bottom of the case, and I didn't realize it was the fan blades disintegrating until the thing cooked. Put a UPS on your PC, and TV. I lost an expensive TV when the power surged and the UPS I had it on had failed and I stuck a cheap surge protector on it temporarily. Don't chase rainbows and buy into nonsensical tweaks and endless upgrades. A few years ago, my mom's TV finally decided to go all green after 35 years and we figured the cost of owning it per day was less than a penny, not counting the power it took as a CRT set. |
So much for saving a ton using a headphone set up. My better tube headphone amp had a channel go and the manufacturer has been out of business for a long time. So what do I do? I buy another all tube unit, this time 2 6SN7s driving the 6AS7G , 6080, 5998 etc,(X2) power tubes. Sounds good and manufacturer direct, did not cost a fortune (Felik's Audio), sadly I liked the other better, but the guy is hated for stealing so much money. At least I had all of the tubes I might have been tempted to roll.I must say, in all honesty, that I want my regular big rig back, but I have no space to put it in. Yes you should all feel for me. I will put together another rig but smaller by necessity. |
Mechans - yes a good headfi system is a low cost basic. I’ve learned a lot from this over the years. My Audiotaylor Jade otl heaphone amp led me to otl amps in my main rig - no regrets. A good way to keep costs down if you have a good sounding analog system is to record it. I use a Tascam Da -3000 with very good results.. Recently my cartridge broke down - the diamond fell off the cantilever. I calculated. The diret vinyl listening has cost ca 3 dollars per hour. The digital recording just a fraction. |
An update:Two fans running, very low cost computer fans, adjusted for low noise, without problems - behind my most critical tube components. Regarding heat x time: I think soldering close to mechanical parts is especially error-prone. Like volume potmeters, or even cable contacts that are much used. Examples:My Jade OTL amp has developed scratching noise, once more, when I turn the volume.Last time it was poor soldering. Seems to be the same, now. My Aesthetix Io phono preamp had to be repaired and the main error was in the volume controls (with a lot of soldering), they had to replaced. |
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Replacing tubes every couple of years is a negligible expense, as many great tubes aren't expensive, unless your amp has 14 tubes. Mine has 4. Besides, most tube amp owners enjoy trying different tubes and wind up with a collection of the things that insures decades of backup tubes, and rarely replace them simply due to them wearing out. The cost of a SS amp of equivalent musical quality can often be more than a simple tube amp's cost, obviating the tube cost issue. An exception could be when a tube amp owner finds a particular tube and has to stick with it as it offers something better than others...I just switched to Gold Lion KT77s in my SEP amp (it only has 2 power tubes) and can't imagine a better sounding tube in this amp, so more of these are likely in the future. There goes my tube theory. |
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If you want to stay with tubes, it's simple: get yourself a Music Reference amplifier. Roger Modjeski makes push/pull pentode, push-pull triode, single-ended triode, OTL's, direct drive amps for ESL's (no output transformer, no ESL input transformer!), and assorted oddities. His amps run the tubes conservatively (plate voltages), the output tubes in his amps having an unusually long life span, some as much as 10,000 hours. |
Most gear is reliable, the cost is mainly the capital investment. Once you own it, you should just be paying the utility bills. If you really want almost completely fuss free equipment, by reasonably powerful SS stuff and play it at lowish levels. The overbuilt amps and such also have better resale in the end as opposed to small played out gear. You get the idea. I don't do that myself, I love tubes. So much so that I roll them a lot and have had to replace only 2 in the last 15 years. Emphasis on the "had to" part, like I said I roll different tubes into my stuff frequently but it's a luxury. |
I too have owned a lot of tube gear without any problems. After reading some reviews I bought a used Wells Audio mono amp and sold my VAC 90 tubed mono blocs that I had for a number of years. I upgraded those at some point and if was an absolute waste of money.There was no discernible improvement in SQ. The Wells amp is a keeper. I do use a tubed preamp. Tubes, with the exception of one time, always came from Andy of Vintage Tube Services. |
Wolf_garcia, I do think costs can be reduced - by investigating before you buy, by taking the right kind of care of the things you've bought, and so on. Trying to reduce the chance of failures / repairs. Beyond just turning the system off. With lots of tubes, like I have, the problem becomes larger. But it concerns all equipment. Cartridges not least. Cleaning records - and so on. You know it. But so often, its like a shot in the dark. You send box B to a repair shop because they did the job with box A a while ago. But now they can't do it, and what is more, nothing happens, they just sit on it. I was thinking maybe Audiogon experience, called and collected, could reduce that kind of incident. But maybe not. |
Regarding vinyl playback - besides record cleaning, stylus cleaning, arm and cartridge adjustment, correct anti-skating and so on: dont drop the stylus on the lip of the record, so it skips. This means wear and tear on the cartridge. The "lip" is like a hill, and placing the stylus in the groove on the top of the hill is asking it to run downwards fast with no warmup. Instead, go a bit further in, adjust the arm slightly to the left, before lowering the cartridge on to the record. The correct starting point may be hard to reach on some LPs. Often the song has already started. If needed, first turn the volume down, and then go up when the stylus is in the groove. - Some LPs dont have lips, or only a very slight elevation in the beginning, but most have. |
I'm into buying things that aren't expensive but well regarded anyway...my factory modded Jolida 502P was bought new after looking everywhere and reading everything I could find about it, and it was inexpensive relative to anything in its performance class. Great amp...replaced by a hand made "work of art" Dennis Had Firebottle HO...that was barely used at around 1100 bucks...a steal, but the new price is only 1500 or so. Schiit Freya preamp...giant killer tube preamp with features no other pre has and costs peanuts (relatively). I like finding great stuff that isn't so pricey, and with patience and close listening you can assemble a world class system. |
Here is a quick tip - how to get your cartriddge to last longer. After a lot of experimenting, here is my "regime" for playing vinyl records.- 1) Use the Mofi record brush to wipe away dust. Before playing a record, let the record spin some rounds, using the brush. This brush goes further into to the grooves than others I have tried..2) Clean the Mofi brush with a toothbrush or similar. It should be 100 percent clean. 3) Use a small carbon brush to clean the stylus. This is sensitive, don’t overdo it. Keep the volume up so you can hear what you do. 4) For every ten LPs or so, I clean my stylus with a wet cleaner (Lyra LPT). "Careful" is a key word, here. Without the cleaning, the pickup tends to pick up much dust and dirt. With poor sonic results and reduced lifetime expectation. The last thing you want, with an expensive cartridge, is that it fails due to record wear, knocks and shocks, and whatever. So, a strict regime for removing dust and dirt is useful. |
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Many of us don't keep gear forever...therefore, looking to the automotive world, Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds and others...it doesn't take long to see that the highest cost of ownership is depreciation.....which is a subject often discussed in various audio forums as people express their frustration over resale prices. We can't predict with absolute certainty how much a given piece of gear will resell for in five years...but we know that certain brands hold their value better than others. Therefore, if TCO is high on your importance list, then stick to buying brands that are known to hold their value. |
Snapsc - I agree, depreciation is an important factor, but not the only one. Cost factors, not just money but also time, must be seen with the benefits in view. If your listening enjoyment is poor, it is nice to be able to sell the well known brand component without too much loss, but it does not really help you. So I would add "components" not just brands. Maybe the brand is not so well known, but the specific component has recieved good reviews and user feedback. And the risk of losing money is of course far less if you buy it used, when the price has already "settled". |
Keep it simple. Also if tubes you have to have a good tube tester to find the problem or keep spares around to swap one at a time to isolate the bad ones. Also good point with tube gear to try and find gear designed to help with tube life. Also I've found Class D integrated amps can deliver very competitive top notch sound reliably and the efficiency of operation also helps keep TCO down. |
+1 Keep it simple Could we agree on two rules? 1 Total cost of ownership = money plus waste of time (repairs etc). 2 Also, cost must be judged relative to benefits in the ownership period. So for example - you can invest in a safe brand to sell later, or invest in potentially best sounding gear, even if the resell price will be lower. Different folks, different takes. Since I have a lot of tubes in my system, I've invested in a tube tester (Beck RM-1) despite the fact that it does not fully measure what is needed in the components I use. It would be interesting to hear what class D can do. So far I've been hesitant, and happy with OTL class A. |
Hi, generally tube gear is less sensitive to major repairs, is easier and less costly to upgrade, as long as it follows a relatively simple design/construction. You have to change tubes regularly though to have it in perfect shape. Solid state generally is more complex and needs more parts to be replaced if something goes too bad. Speakers will determine if the amp will be tube or ss. You can make true savings by never fixing a used cartridge (few exceptions are Koetsu, VDH or any MM type), get a new one by exchanging, try to DIY your cables (power, signal) after borrowing and testing samples, do not hunt too expensive or too many NOS tubes for better sound, it is wallet draining from start, you can find much cheaper alternatives that sound equally good. Check for second hand alternatives, downsize where and if necessary. Be patient and learn your system. |
Mike-in-mc Yes and maybe better sound would need less whisky - or you would enjoy a vintage more - ; Say no to vinyl and tubes - for me this doesnt work. I am not mainly investing in my gear to sell later. I am searching for the best possible listener experience. However these considerations must be balanced of course. Petg60 I mainly agree with your advice though maybe sometimes cart repair does work out. Tubes - yes searching for good Nos tubes can be difficult and expensive. Yet again I would modify this rule. That is: search for the best NOS tubes that are in the most important positions in your system. Like the first tubes that receive the cart signal. Go from there and experiment if you have the chance. But often getting a new stock tube set from the manufacturer is the best way. Example There is still life in my 4Telefunken 12ax7s in the first and most important gain stage of my phono preamp Aesthetix Io. I prefer them for musicality even though JJ 12ax7s in a recent stock tube set from Aesthetix are more silent. However the price for the Telefunkens is now extreme. I can live with the JJs also. |
Back to the topic, TCO is made up of two factors: original investment cost and repair&maintenance cost. You have control over both. As far as OI goes, make a short-list and choose high quality equipment that meets but doesn’t exceed the “must-haves” on your list. For instance, don’t pay for a high end DAC if you are only listening to analog sources. As far as R&M goes, choosing quality in your OI goes a long way, but you must still account for replacement of wear and tear items such as styli, tubes and speaker components. Buying equipment that’s suited to task and not pushed to the limits most of the time helps. Cleaning, handling, power supply and environmental factors helps also. Learning to tackle some or all of the R&M work can reduce your TCO if you already have some of the tools, equipment and inclination for those tasks. Bottom line for me is maximizing my enjoyment of music and my equipment by being deeply involved in the R&M side pays off in spades. I carefully selected vintage gear and built a system that cost me less than $5K but performs at the level of many $30K systems. That $25K differential pushes the threshold of diminishing returns far beyond my wants. And I’m having lots of fun in the process! |
I hope the lack of recent debate in this thread is due to everyone keeping their systems in shape and their costs acceptable. Just a comment to wolf_garcia: it is tubes with me too. I also am amazed by how some NOS tubes esp driver tubes can be ca ever-lasting, for example in my Gibson guitar amp. My rule is to cut down on the hours when my tube stereo system is on, to increase tube life and decrease heat problems. It needs an hour or two to warm up. I try to limit this to ca 5 hours "on" per day, since it needs an hour or two, to warm up fully and sound its best. It is not extremely different from running a solid-state system, but a bit more demanding, yes. But then, when warmed up, there is no comparison, tubes rule. To my subjective ears. |
Sleepwalker65 - thanks for a good summary that agrees with my experience. There are no absolute rules, but paying for "flagship" level may help later, yes. Or what you call OI investment. Whatever the level, it can help to be involved with the company, invest in upgrades, within reason (can be hard to determine), ask about repair possibilities. Being informed regarding RM investments can help reduce them. Do a bit yourself - and you'll experience many low-cost rewards. |
wolf_garcia - this is much like my experience, with a Les Paul GA40 amp and Fender Telecaster. Very robust indeed. Tubes - we agree. Back to topic, for vinyl playing: get a clear strong light above the player, e g a LED light. Since this is annoying turn it off before listening. Use it to get a visual impression of the dirt on the record. Use your record brushes and eventual disc washes, until most of the pollution is gone. You will get better sound, and save money - more playback hours before your next cartridge upgrade. |
