Tonearms: Ripoff?

The "haves" are not ruining this hobby, they are helping to fund it. Just think about it; if you had a reputation for a good product, and you could build a slighter better product and charge an obscene price for it, that was way over your acceptable profit margin; "Why not".

Conrad Johnson is my favorite preamp, and here are some prices. When inflation is taken into consideration, they're probably not too high.



    http://www.thestereoshop.com/conradJohnson.php

When funds allow, I'll get the RB 2000 tonearm, which is listed at $2,195.


          https://www.needledoctor.com/Rega-RB2000-Tonearm


          http://www.rega.co.uk/rb2000.html


The reason I'll get this tonearm is because it comes with the Rega RP10 which is my next TT.


If I wanted to play with something, I would have gone into electric model trains; I want to hear beautiful music reproduced in my listening room as good as possible. The pinnacle of success in my book is to feel as though you are at a concert when you are in your listening room, and I will take all shortcuts available to get there.

A bit more resolving (or not) just for extra $10k (or even extra $50k) compared to the Technics EPA-100 mkII, Fidelity-Research FR-64fx and FR-64s, Lustre GST-801, Micro Seiki MAX series and many more highly regarded vintage high-end toneamrs.  

Same old positions as usual on this thread, as on the thread I started about the cartridge nightmare. Plenty of people who don’t like the questions and positions posed by the OP ( for whatever biased reasons that they have)- and so they resort to the old retort..you’re a ’troll’. That is so old and weak!

Are tonearms a rip off...yes they are IF they are doing nothing special for the sound, are poorly designed and made, and they are being sold at a huge inflated price. OTOH, IME,most decently designed tonearms are actually either more resolving than what they replace, or more capable in one way or another...bass control, high frequency air and ability to control the cartridge tracking. Unlike cartridges and my OP on the nightmare cartridge thread, I think the opportunity and likelihood of at least hearing a tonearm under consideration is much greater. Leading to a more defined, and in all likelihood, acceptable result once acquired., IMHO.

When are the Moderators going to ban the Op from posting for 1 Year!

Nope, I can't. I'm just glad no one has stated that they all sound the same. 

I never post, just lurk. Multiple people have noted that this is a troll thread, and yet folks keep banging their heads against the wall trying to win an unwinnable argument with the OP. I dare you all to stop posting in this thread. Betcha can't do it.

All the reviews like Rega tonearms, they also like Rega TT's; so if you want to listen to music, as opposed to playing with audio toys, that are very easy to mess up, why not use the arm that comes with the table; for example, Basis likes Vector; they must be a match.

So, there's a few Durand arms that've come up today. One is a Talea for $5k, and the other is a Telos for $14k -- setting aside the Telos which this guy is asking for an amount that costs more than my enitre vinyl rig including the $1k I just spent on a Hashimoto SUT -- the Talea at $5k seems to be a huge amount for what you're getting. Let's say I drop the seller down to $4.5k...what am I getting with this arm that the $3.5k Helius Omega Silver Ruby with cryo silver wiring won't give me? Or the 3k for the Clearaudio Universal with VTA? I like the Universal because it looks cool, but it's offputting there's no reviews of it out there.

BTW, Durand also sells a record weight for $3.5k.....

This has tread has sure created some Nastiness ,
over opinions about the cost of tonearms over $1000.00
being a " rip-off " .
I have stated that I don't think they are ,
one might argue that the  Profit Margins  on higher end tonearms
( equipment ) are excessive .

Elizabeth , I disagree with you about the " haves " ruining the hobby .
I believe that they help all levels of music lovers by not only stimulating
the continued advancement with their money but also with simulating the second and third markets for average income audiophiles .
At one time all of my equipment had been pre-owned ,
thanks to people who can afford to buy the latest and greatest .

I really like the Thales concept.  Does it have a similar sound as the SME IV or V is the question?   I wonder if the bass is as robust with those narrow arms and more delicate looking rear assembly.  Otherwise, I prefer it to the VPI unipivot arms.

Went from a  MG-1.1 Air bearing Linear Tracking Tonearm to a THALES Simplicity II...same Lyra Skala cartridge.

Won't be going back anytime soon!!! lol

Tom Port of Better Records recommends the Triplanar and uses one.  My SME IV also has great bass, probably not as good as the Triplanar though.

I doubt my system could resolve the subtle details that a great arm such as a Triplanar or Graham, Fidelity Research, Reed, Moerch could and so on.

One thing the Triplanar gets right is the bass, which so many other arms do not. You don't have to have resolution for that- just enough bass response.

For me, its diminishing returns. I am sure the Tri-Planar on the 1200G is fantastic, but on my humble system, the stock arm is really good on the 1200G, especially with MM cartridges. I doubt my system could resolve the subtle details that a great arm such as a Triplanar or Graham, Fidelity Research, Reed, Moerch could and so on. I have heard great arms and I’m pretty sure they make a difference in the subtle details which in high end IS a big deal. The only thing is when you start to get to these levels, everything makes a huge difference, your isolation makes a big difference, like, you better have the system in the basement or slab on grade and so on. lol

What defines high end? Is it simply a price point or something more complex?

Intention, more than anything else. It certainly isn't price.

Same old, same old format from the OP.  Quick look at his previous posts, and he's questioned cables, tonearms, companies, etc.  Always the same format. As if he's providing all of us a service by exposing the ugly truth about high end audio.

 I'm sure he'll lash out at me in some form or another for writing this.  Have at it bud.  

Although his spelling and grammar is atrocious, Raulirruegas is correct. What defines high end? Is it simply a price point or something more complex?

@vair68robert,

My questions are quite simple, Please answer them. What is your opinion based on. What is your experience with High End tonearms?

I have known you since October of 1971. We stood as friends until 2 +/- years ago. When did you get the thin skin? What happened? 45 years of supposed friendship over a hobby?  My advice, if you intend to post on Forums, Get Thicker skin.

Since you claim my post is a 2 cents attack on you, please explain on this thread. My questions deserve answers. Do Not send answers to my private email. You accused me on an Open Forum. Please respond and clarify on the same Open Forum.

vair68robert,

I Must respond to your accusation that my post was a  "2 cents attack on you".

Was my entire post a 2 cents attack on you or a particular part or question?  I will answer your question; Do I think that the money I have spent on my system is a RIP OFF ?  Absolutely Not. My system has evolved over the years since I embarked on my High End journey in October of 1988. I have auditioned a great amount of gear.since returning from Alaska in 1993. I currently have 5 High End shops within a 1 hour drive of my house, more if I am willing to drive 1 1/2 - 2 hours.

I have picked my system with the use of My Ears and long term auditions.
I am completely happy with my current system. 

I have used reviews in the "rags" and on the web as a starting point to search out gear that I might be interested in. I have only bought gear that I have used in Home Auditions. Most from local dealers but gear sent to me from out of state also. Yes, I paid the freight both ways.

I do Not use reviews by others or price. Actual Experience Only.

The Title of this thread is- Tonearms: Ripoff?

madavid0; His question is stated at the start of his third paragraph, " So the question is--are tonearms just a scam?"

I own a LP12 with Ekos arm for 30 years now. It has served me well.

At Axpona 2016, I bought a Kuzma Stabi with upgraded power supply and upgraded platter and 12" VTA arm. It too serves me well.

I bought a Technics SL1200G in March of 2018. I had it sent to atmasphere ( Ralph ) He built and installed the arm board; Tri Mai builds the Triplanar arms and mounted the Triplanar Classic SE tonearm that he built for me. This rig is a game changer IMO. My Lyra Kleos mounted on all 3 tonearms needs to be heard. The Triplanar takes the Kleos to a new level.

I am a DD convert and have no doubt that the Triplanar was spendy but well worth it to me. My Ekos and Kuzma arms are NOT in the same league.

My answer is, No ! Tonearms are not a scam. This opinion comes from owning 2 very good arms and a truly High End arm. Actual Experiece.

A good condition Zeta arm

The Zeta arm are good arms but the quality is very but very far from one Zeta to another.

I think this kind of rip-off ideas are very strange. If it was easy to create a cheap copy of any equipment there would be lots of cheap versions. Manufacturers also has to cover costs for Wales, marketing, support and R&D.

Not all small firms make cheap things. SAT is probably a small firm but makes very expensive tonearms. According to this article many of their customers are still happy.

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/listen-sats-original-pickup-arm-and-compare-it-new-lm-09-and-cf...

A good condition Zeta arm can be had for under a grand. Send it to Johnnie Nilsen at Audio Origami in Glasgow (a Zeta expert) for a rewiring (copper or silver) and checkout (bearings, etc.). A classic!

In my opinion vintage Technics EPA 500 with optimized arm tubes and the magnetic damper are unbeatable if in good condition. Getting hard to find!

I found this forum interesting because the Audiomods V reviewed here http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/audiomods/4.html is compared to an SME (I didn't catch which one, or not specified).   It was very clear as to the differences and most audiophiles would prefer the SME.  However, it was also noted that improving the internal wiring and the counterweight brought superior results to a stock unit and cartridge matching also provided further enjoyment.  So, the Audiomods V is a very fine and potentially, high end tonearm.  

I was fortunate to purchase an SME IV in 1989 for $1100.  The bearings are not ABEC 3 or 5 supposedly.  It sounds great with a Lyra or Benz cartridge on a VPI TNT VI mod.  The current price is about $4300.  I am not willing to spend a lot more unless I receive a lot more enjoyment from a newer, better arm.  It is also a reliable arm with over 13,000 hours on it.  Well worth the money over time.  I considered an SME V and a Triplanar.  I have an Ultracraft 400c on my VPI 19 for 78 rpm use.  I'm not as fond of the unipivot with variable damping although it appears to work great with a Grado 78 cartridge and minimal damping.

madavid0
"Now let's take two tonearms, the Audiomods V and the Durand Kairos. The price difference is very large, easily around 500-600%. Now, from an audio perofmance perspective is there a meaningful difference? How much better does the Kairos sound -- 100%, 50%, 10%, 2% ? Assuming both arms are well-matched to the cartridge in question, IS THE KAIROS A RIPOFF?"

I guess the discussion here is price verse value 
or in the audiophile world price verse improvement .
The cost of equipment verse the improvement can be viewed as a 
mathematical curve called a parabola where the cost factor 
is  the x and the improvement is the y ,
as the x increases the y increases at a much great rate not a 1 to 1
ratio .
Each of us has to decide how much we can spend to get that 
next bit of improvement RIP OFF  no,  just more and more expensive
to get the last little bit of improvement .

One solution for all of us is to Buy Used from the " Haves ",
they are NOT ruining it for all of us , they are making it available for all of us either directly with used equipment or indirectly by buying top of the line equipment that gives manufactures the resources for trickle down technology .


NKONOR ?
So other than your 2 cents attack on me ,
Do you think  that the money you have spent on your system
is a RIP OFF ? because that is the question !

My 2 cents 

+1
rauliruegas8,955 posts11-05-2018 5:03pmDear @madavid0: What needs a good cartridge from the tonearm?:

- pretty decent bearing ( it does not needs the " hardest " one. ) design.
- very well damped
- first rate (silver ) internal wiring with very best ( silver ) female cartridge connectors.
- accurate and user friendly cartridge/tonearm protractor.
- precise VTA/SRA/VTF, scating and AZ mechanisms
- non-unipivot design.

OP
 Rauliruegas nicely answered your question.  
The first few items he mentioned remove things like vibration (damped tube ) and heat (bearing ) and so allow for clearer sound (wiring/precise setting) and more consistent playback over the years. 

Like most  everything in this hobby it's a question of improving the weakest link. If you have a high end table and cartridge you'll hear more improvements from a better tonearm than if the other parts are so so. 
Another variable is that some cartridges need higher or lower mass tonearms. Audio dealer can help with all that. 
Good luck!

@elizabeth My choice of arms and cartridges has been listed here many times in different threads even with pictures, everyone who read this section of the forum is well know what i’m using and what i like when it comes to cartridges and tonearms. Even earlier in this thread i have described my philosophy (of choosing equipment). You have nothing special in your system, just good modern high-end as i can see, also you don’t use $50k tonearms and $20k cartridges, so you’re "normal", that’s good news.

I know people who can buy $12 000 record in VG condition to play on $100 turntable. I know many record collectors from all over the world, the rarity of the record is much more important for them than equipment. $300 for a rare 45 is an average price for them on auction or privately, but the "best" equipment they got is old SL1200mk2 with some worn conical styli (all for $300 on used market) connected to cheap dj mixer and a pair of crappy active monitors or average speakers. The value of their record collection is over million dollars, they don’t care about equipment, they are all about the music, believe it or not. Some of them are living in Japan where it’s much easier to find and buy some amazing audio equipment, but they don’t care. I know what i’m talking about, it’s not a fantasy.

At the same time the majority of the rich audiophiles with the most expensive systems are playin utterly bad music, and what the dealers playin at the high-end shows is rubbish, you can go from one showroom to another and all you can hear will be Diana Krall (same song). The new trend is to play some awful electronic music. Some of those elitist audiophiles have no taste as i said. Some of the most expensive modern equipment is simply the uglies design ever, so the designers have no taste too. The prices are insane.

Well, this is my private opinion, not to offend anyone.

@madavido you clearly have the wherewithal to purchase an inexpensive tonearm to go with your TA table.  Spring for a Jelco and judge for yourself.  I’d buy an SME V in a heartbeat if I had the cash and the right table to pair with it, and there’s lots of those. 

Surely this is getting a bit out of hand, doesn't it? We all know there is a group of people with excessive wealth and in our current economic system this can only go in one direction: further up.
So what do you do when you already have a dozen houses around the globe, a few yachts to play with, a bunch of cars, watches, should I continue?

Somewhere down the line of such trophies comes our precious little hobby. Even when only a very small portion of the global 1% takes a fancy to high end audio, there is still big money to be made. Which explains the existence of 10k+ cartridges, 100k+ turntables, etc. Audio designers are just like normal people with mortgages to pay, so if there's a market for such items, they will produce it.

Does this make such products rip offs? Not necessarily. There are serious and talented audio designers who have welcomed this market as a unique opportunity to work with a budget that will allow them to push the bounderies of technology and performance (and still make a nice profit). Other designers may consider this to be objectional (or even distasteful) and choose to focus their talents on making high performance products at reasonable prices for regular folks. Some do both.

But as in every market there are also likely to be fraudulent types who will step into this 'trophy' market, stick a silly price tag on some fancy looking mediocre product and hope to make a handsome profit by selling it to some ignorant with money to burn. That would certainly qualify as a rip off, but why should we care?

@elizabeth I do worry about myself, i do not buy $50k tonearm or any audio equipment with this price tag, i am not rich and do not pretend to be elitist audiophile. I don’t drink "Château Latour" and don’t drive Ferrari car. But i am considering myself a music lover and record collector, i don’t need $50k to enjoy music, my whole system cost less than $50k with 6 first class tonearms in rotation and about 20 cartridges. When i watch reports from the modern audio shows all i see is uber ugly overpriced equipment and absolutely awful music reproduced on them, in my opinion these people have no taste (just money). I’ve noticed than many distributors knows nothing about cartridges, this industry with its marketing departments forced rich people to spend more and more on audio equipment, i am happy to ignore this nonsense.

These guys reminds me those record nerds who can spend $12 000 on one single rare record in VG condition to play it on $100 equipment. The only difference is that most of the audiophiles normally playin horrible music on their audiophile pressing LPs with $70k tonearms and $200k turntables. Those two group of people deserve each other in this crazy world. At least record nerds have great and interesting music. If it's all for the music, then the music must be great first and then everything else. 

If my posts are annoying for you for this reason then do not read it.

But i have no idea what do you contribute on this site, any usefull information about analog gear for others?

@elizabeth 

I am certain I cannot even begin. Two people die EVERY SECOND.. most ugly horrible deaths. Face it. While I typed ONE HUNDRED people died. How many did you save? Do you think you made a dent in DEATH?

I said "help" not "save", how many $50k tonearm have you bought in your life? You don't even know what the tonearm is and why people are buying them, according to one of your post. So chillout and play with your automatic turntables. Your feelings about human life is very well described in your post. 

P.S. At least i know for sure than Michael Fremer do charity, Peter Ledermann do charity too. But some rich audiophiles are mentally sick and need help too. I can not seriously discuss $75k tonearms or $200k turntables, this is some sort of illness and it has nothing to do with the love to music. 

     

Instead of spending $50k on a f****g tonearm, drinking your "Château Latour" try to help children dying in some part of the world! The gap between rich and poor people is so huge. 

@vair68robert,

Is your opinion based on price / value only?  Do you have actual listening experience with High End tone arms? Such as the Graham, SME, Kuzma 4 point, Triplanar or any other High End tone arm. Have you auditioned any at a High End dealer? High End Audio show? Perhaps, an extended in home audition pondering the purchase of such an arm? Or are you a key board warrior basing your opinions based on reviews on the web, maybe needle drops on You Tube?

As folkfreak pointed out; you may need to expand your range of values to include actual experience. Not reviews by others and price.

Best

The Jelco is a large house that has built tonearms for many brands and has been building for itself for some time, tonearms from the affordable price and finished right for the required cost.

A good arm is also seen by friction, known that Jelco applies bearings on its tonearms with too high friction (30mg) not justified in the year 2018 if not on products of low or medium level but that is stubborn to apply to contain costs.

This friction could fit 30-40 years ago on high-level arms but now it is not the most desirable IHMO.

In my opinion, rather than spending $ 1000 for a tonearm Jelco I spend them on a vintage tonearm such as the Technics Epa 100 or Epa 500 which have friction of 5 and 7 mg respectively.

@madavid0 ahh the tyranny of numbers. 

Lets for for the sake of argument say that the Kairos is 10% better than a generic arm does that make it bad value?

What if I then posit that the only way of achieving that 10% is by spending on a better arm like the Kairos? No other change anywhere else in this system could yield that extra soupçon of versimilitude. Is the value equation now different?

The fact that in audio everything matters and the better the system the more likely it is that everything matters is what makes it so foolish to talk about “massive” improvements like the amp comparison you suggested. See elsewhere for a discussion of why diminishing returns in audio is quite the wrong framework, in fact at the high end you experience increasing returns from incremental changes as each change (like a better tonearm) unearths a new dimension (and new set of problems elsewhere in the chain)

@lewm SAT have not taken any price increases, these are just the prices for the second generation designs
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/sat-swedish-analog-technologies-begins-delivering-four-new-pick...

Personally id rather like that Telos if I could only accommodate a 12” arm but the “light up” effect is a bit cheesy 😏
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/02/durand-tonearms-telos-sapphire-tonearm.html

Wrote, not “Road”.

Folkfreak, if what you say is true about the cost of the 12 inch SAT tonearm, then one really ought to buy one as soon as possible. Because at its current rate of appreciation, it is a great investment. Every time anyone writes about it, the cost is greater than the last time anyone Road about it. But as far as the OP goes, he is just looking to make waves.

The price difference between, say, a Schiit Vidar ($700) and a D'Agostino Progression is about 3,000%. The audio performance difference is of course night and day -- in terms of an arbitrary numeric factor maybe somewhere around 500% better? The value isn't the issue; there are people who think the value proposition is acceptable, therefore it can't be considered to be a "ripoff".

If there was no audible difference between the Vidar and the Progression, we could definitely say that in regards to audio performance the D'Agostino is a ripoff.

Since there is a large and clear audible difference between the two amps mentioned above we can't call the more expensive one a ripoff in regards to audio performance.

Now let's take two tonearms, the Audiomods V and the Durand Kairos. The price difference is very large, easily around 500-600%. Now, from an audio perofmance perspective is there a meaningful difference? How much better does the Kairos sound -- 100%, 50%, 10%, 2% ? Assuming both arms are well-matched to the cartridge in question, IS THE KAIROS A RIPOFF?

@vair68robert you may need to expand your range of tonearms values. Top of the range SATs are currently $53K for the 12” and a Durand Telos with sapphire base is $75K so the top end of the market is well served 😉

madavidO

No they are not .  
Now lets use equipment prices as examples ,
an amp can cost $2,000 or $200,000  a 100x increase .
speakers can be the same 100x increase 
but a $1,000 tonearm or the top of the line Graham Engineering 
for $15,000 is only a 15x increase , So NO they are not a rip off 
in relative terms .

You didn't even bring up size or arm changeability .

@2channel8. The Jelco 850/950 is a significant upgrade over the Sumiko for little money. See my post about it.

sfischer1"as a recovered watch addict, people don’t justify expensive watches based on their time-keeping accuracy"

Addiction to anything is a very sad thing and by definition those who are addicted to any thing at all are not rational in any way they are destroying they're lives and acting out of some painful unmet physical or emotional need but that does not prove "There is no rational basis for extraordinarily expensive anything."