I [...] mostly treat the vocals as another instrument.
I also like music that have vocals in languages I don’t understand
@oberoniaomnia is making an excellent point about the relative importance of lyrics.
I grew up listening to music in a language I did not understand, so I too treated the voice as an instrument. Those voices conveyed feeling and emotion, but about what? I did not know, and that was okay.
Later, I discovered that songs I really liked actually had embarrassing lyrics and I had to stop liking them, and the other way around.
To this day, I enjoy listening to music in languages in which I am not fluent or that I don’t understand at all.
I like darkwave too, and I don’t know why darkwave artists insist on singing. A good example is Hante., her lyrics are terrible (she writes in English, a language she obviously does not know well) and her voice is awful, but she’s a fabulous DJ. If only she kept her music instrumental.
|
@immatthewj - My parents didn't like long hair, especially when I let my hair grow, but they were pretty tolerant of new music. You mention Dylan and the Beatles and they are a great contrast with most of the popular music of today. The lyrics from the early Beatles were simple, clever, love songs and the tunes were catchy. Dylan put out some amazing poetry that was hard to dismiss by the older generation at the time.
Much of the stuff coming out now is either cliche ridden drivel or profane and abusive. There are good lyrics in some of the alternative artists but it takes a lot of work to seek them out.
|
Speaking of lyrics in a language that I, personally, cannot understand, I really like the cover, that Gal Costa did, in Brazilian, of It's All Over Now, Baby Blue.
|
No problem Matt, the only reason I looked it up is cause I’m getting older and I thought my mind might have been playing tricks on me! Cause I sure did remember hearing
Just like a black girl should.
right at the end of the recording, not only when I was a kid but later in life when I was still doing a lot rockin out! 
@mahgister, of course we’re good big brother! I looked up Beato and it seems he’s had a recording studio in Stone Mountain, Georgia since 1995? Funny thing is, I’ve been in the Metropolitan area of Atlanta, Georgia since 1979 and I’ve never even heard of the guy?
And I’ve seen just about every major recording artist in and from the Atlanta, Georgia area and among a host of other shows of touring artists and been to every music venue in the area also.
Heck, I’ve even been a ’Roadie’ in my very young life just to get into concerts for free! And I still listen to rock & roll, public college, r&b, funk, and a little rap radio stations.
 The only place I’ve seen or heard of this guy is from a youtube algorithm. Expert in music? I don’t know?
|
@8th-note , I recall my two older sisters listening to them (The Beatles and Dylan) when I was growing up. There was a pretty good age gap between them and me, and back then I didn’t have a real appreciation for music, however I did find a lot of what they listened to interesting, and I now credit their (my sisters) influence to be why I became a fan of Dylan as I grew older.
Speaking of offensive lyrics, I remember them playing a protest song quite loudly (my oldest sister’s bedroom had the "stereo" and it was down in the basement) and what I remember was "GIMME AN F!! [. . .] WHAT’S That SPELL!!" I remember that rather clearly. I think my oldest sister did that to piss my folks off. I also remember some interesting songs off of the Hair (was it a sound track?) album. The one I am thinking of at the moment was titled Sodomy. The line that got my attention back then was, ". . . masturbation can be fun . . .". I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason she played that was also to get on my folks ’nerves.
|
@immatthewj, I had older sisters too! I remember my father getting my ’big baby sister’ a small 45 rpm record player for her birthday I think, and believe or not, my Dad got a policeman he knew to cord off with wooden horses right in front of the house in the middle of the street so she could have a ’sock hop’ for her as that’s what she wanted! Amazing, you got that memory out of me! I couldn’t’ have been more than 5 years old. That 45 rpm record player was the one first in the neighborhood that any young person had got and he made a way for her to have a blast of a time! Wow! I think those positive thoughts made my blood pressure go down some! And yes it was that same sister that got me Yeah, yeah she loves you too a host of other Beatle records as the years went by.
|
In the sixties and seventies there was a measure of musical artists that went "...yes, but do they have anything to say?" This was certainly applied to Dylan and many of the song writers mentioned in this thread. And many of them did. History may well decide that that period was a cultural renaissance and that we were blessed with a lot of music that not only entertained but also spoke to the political times and the human experience on many levels. It seems much of the lyrical content today only seeks to entertain.
In 1970 Grateful Dead lyricist Robert Hunter wrote ‘Ripple’, ‘Brokedown Palace’, and ‘To Lay Me Down’ in a single day! As he himself said: "Oh would that those days would come again. Oh, they will-but not for me."
|
P.S. I like a lot of Country music too. Just the other day I listened to some George Jones...
Speaking of Jones, I'm of the mind of Quincy Jones who said a record (or album). 'It's like a photo or snapshot in time.'
|
@tyray
". . .Memories can be friends
they can take you to a place
That you never thought you’d be again
And take you to a place
That you never ever thought
That you would see again. . ."
Jim Croce/Recently
|
The only place I’ve seen or heard of this guy is from a youtube algorithm. Expert in music? I don’t know?
Beato is just a guitarist musician among others.. I never say that he was more...He does not claim more either.
But i like his video because he had no pretense save saying his mind in a funny way...
And he know guitar music and a little more ...
I select this video as start of discussion not because he was an authority but because for me there is truth in what he tried to convey ...
|
So the gist of this thread appears to be that a Steely Dan-loving YouTuber decreed that "Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad".
This is such a laughably stupid statement that it was soon amended to "maybe there are good lyricists working today, but they're obscure, they don't sell, and they're all 40 or 60 anyway, while the young ones who sell out arenas all suck".
Billie Eilish is not my cuppa, don't worry. But to be fair, her lyrics are more than passable, her music perfectly serviceable, and at 23 she's more successful than all the nostalgia acts mentioned in this thread put together.
|
@devinplombier Funny you mention Hante. Have to agree on her singing in English not adding to the music. But love the label synth religion with slogan forgive me for my synths, which is a really funny play with words.
An infamously bad foreign language remake is Nena's 99 Luftballons [in German] that was re-issues as 99 red balloons in English. The German is quite a bit better, even if rather corny and a bit of a commercial sell out even back then.
|
Uhhh, I did NOT say I was a 70 year old boomer.. That was someone else and I think that post was taken down, maybe?
We were very fortunate, Dad served in WW2 and was able to get decent employment with the federal government and he had one of those I was think it was a Motorola console? I think they were called that? And he let my sisters play whatever they wanted, but that was only on Saturday, maybe Sunday, and when he was working during the day.
He wasn't hard on them he just liked to keep them busy around the house because they were his girls...It's funny cause I remember as a little kid Pops, had a lot of Frank Sinatra 78rpm's he collected over the years as a young man.
|
"And the meek shall inherit the earth"
|
@tyray , LOL! I didn't shoot you those old Jim Croce lyrics because I thought you were a 70 YO 'boomer; I just thought, after reading your last post, that you might appreciate the sentiment.
@devinplombier , funny that you should mention Billie Eilish. A few years ago I made a friend on another audio forum (a forum that I never go to anymore) and he is not someone who I would imagine liking Billie Eilish. A while back ago we touched base about some music and some vacuum tubes, and he recommended her to me. I almost forgot about that.
|
@devinplombier
That you mention Billie Eilish, I think she is in a category all her own, to me...The only other person I can think of that even comes close to her writing skills at such a young age is her brother...
And her singing, I don’t think she knows how good she is, yet...Her phrasing is crazy...
I like what Sza does too. She kinda reminds mey of a thinking woman’s Josephine Baker...If one can imagine that.
|
|
Actually, @tyray , the Jim Croce lyrics that I posted came to my mind after I read your post
@immatthewj, I had older sisters too! I remember my father getting my ’big baby sister’ a small 45 rpm record player for her birthday I think, and believe or not, my Dad got a policeman he knew to cord off with wooden horses right in front of the house in the middle of the street so she could have a ’sock hop’ for her as that’s what she wanted! Amazing, you got that memory out of me! I couldn’t’ have been more than 5 years old. That 45 rpm record player was the one first in the neighborhood that any young person had got and he made a way for her to have a blast of a time! Wow! I think those positive thoughts made my blood pressure go down some! And yes it was that same sister that got me Yeah, yeah she loves you too a host of other Beatle records as the years went by.
and truly, nothing negative was meant to be implied.
|
@oberoniaomnia
I actually saw Nena on stage at the Roxy or the Whisky a Go Go, can't remember which. She was great. Thanks for dredging up that memory :)
Being into darkwave and from Germany, I am sure you already know and maybe enjoy Bohren und der Club of Gore. A forum member here turned me on to them recently, and I've been listening (almost) nonstop. No lyrics and none necessary, the music is enough.
|
@devinplombier Actually Swiss (Basel), living in Santa Barbara, just north of those two clubs.
Don't know either of them. Will have a listen. Thanks for the pointers. Just listened to the new Rue Oberkampf, also Hackedepicciotto, Necrø (still waiting for record to arrive) are currently high on my list. And Videotraum from Hamburg. In case you are interested I have a darkwave centered insta account with music reviews of odd acts: @undaobscura
|
Ahhh...! ’Time in a bottle’ I told you I’m getting older!
|
Re: "Good Morning, Little School Girl"
While the Grateful Dead was one of many groups and artists who performed and/or recorded it, the song and lyrics are generally credited to Sonny Boy Williamson. Like most blues songs, however, Sonny probably borrowed and adapted it from someone else who borrowed it from another someone else and so on and so forth.
|
@oberoniaomnia
"Bohren und der Club of Gore" is the name of one band, sorry
I'm familiar with Rue Oberkampf, I'll check out the others. Thanks!
|
@devinplombier Yeah, found Bohren on Bandcamp. You might also like Throwing Snow, rather electronica, but no words either. His other project Snow Ghosts (synthy neofolk?) is also great, IMHO, but that has folk-leaning female vocals.
|
Probably so many good artists worldwide whose music many of us never hear. So much out there which astounds once heard. The trick is finding it and listening.
|
It seems some people dont get the point...
1----There is plenty of great lyrics today because the number of talented people in all genre is roughly the same %
2----But there is not a collective positive movement created by the lyrics as it was a case few generations ago... ( negativity is easy to create by sheer provocation but it is not art)
3---- And if we compare the poetic content and value of what is heard and favored on many medias the levels of quality is lower ... Thats Beato point as i understood it ..
My own takes about this : The corporations power over the artist deveopment and content are more heavy nowadays and it result in a mechanization of the minds and of the products...
Jonie Mitchell and Madonna are not the same on artistry level... Sorry ...
But the 2 are very talented....
One is an artist on a musical and poetical way , the others is more an influencer and a provocative asset... She sell herself as a product...Many "artist" nowadays sell themselves as a product name...
Now the poetic value of a lyrics is a litterary quality not a question about taste or nostalgia ...It is not related to the singer talent either, some vocalist could move crowd reciting the telephone book ...
|
Times change. The poetic zeitgeist of the 60s is gone. The social, racial, and political lyrics zeitgeist of the 80s and 90s is pretty much gone. To @mahgister s point of their not being a "collective positive movement" - well, he’s right. We have become a niche culture in music and just about everything else. And there are few artists that can speak to many different niches. And unfortunately, this thread also exposes the tendency of the older generation to dismiss and be wary of Music they didn’t grow up with.
|
@tyray
Please link me to some Rap in which melody is as prominent as the rhythmic delivery of the lyrics.
|
Rick is pointing out the obvious.Young people in general have a usable vocabulary of a shockingly minute size nowadays.Its not cool or hip to use an uncommon verb or adjective when a ten cent word will do.Just listen to the personas on radio who dont just dumb down vocabulary but ARE dumb and are unable to go into their word bag.Don't get me started.
|
People will cast aspersions on Rick or whoever intimates that the past was superior to the present moment.Anyone with ears knows Joni, Paul, and Gordon have no equal.
|
The impoverishment of vocabulary and the separation of music in narrow niches is a way to control the masses and are not random events...
Corporations pilot education as well as music industry as a manufactured product...
This is implied by Beato observation and not spell clearly...
I am not nostalgic by the way i discovered new genius in music each month.
But they are not in the popular hit parade ...
When i was young anyway i did not listen really much to any popular music, be it Beatles and all groups music, i was in classical music and poetry. If i feel nostalgic of my young years i will listen, Bach , Josquin des prez, Gabrieli, Vivaldi, Léo Ferré a poet, and Ravi Shankar and Moondog and Bob Dylan or Blind Gary Davis with magnificent text lyrics...
I did not had any albums of pop or rock .... Then count me out for nostalgic listening of pop music by old age ...
I discovered Jazz recently 30 years ago...
i was handicapped in my music exploration young because of my exclusive love of music before Mozert,... I discovered Bruckner and Scriabin recently 30 years ago....
Poetry and text in lyrics matter as much to me than music...
It is why i like Kurt Weill so much....
|
You can say that there is a bit to unpack here, but to me, all that street thug bravado comes from very limited life experiences; poor education, little or no family structure, access to a world just outside there own of violence where gang life becomes family life. All of this regurgitated through some producer who finds a profit to be made, selling a product to the same audience. Something like that. And yet there are people, artists who break through this wall, this uphill battle and produce profound art.
Lennon on the other hand while not having an idyllic childhood, WWII, had a loving mother who did impress music, culture that extended outside just there world. He had access to some education and from this somehow, with a bit of luck timing, helped alter the music culture of a generation. "Across the universe" comes at the end of the Beatles life, written after a juggernaut of experiences few ever will know.
|
Anyone with ears knows Joni, Paul, and Gordon have no equal.
Be sure to keep your dial glued to the oldies stations so that you will never have anything to compare with.
|
Ahhh...! ’Time in a bottle’ I told you I’m getting older!
Actually, @tyray , at the time your post made me think of those lyrics (". . . memories can be friends . . .") I could not remember the name of the song. I did a google prior to that post, and the song title was Recently, and I just did another google, and that was released on the I Got A Name album. Which, as an aside, may have been the first cassette tape I ever bought, when I was a teenager, for my "stereo, which was a little portable cassette player. However, I also thought that Photographs And Memories was a pretty good song.
|
@vitussl101 oddly enough, the main market for that street thug music that you so generally described are suburban white teenagers.
|
"Anyone with ears knows Joni, Paul, and Gordon have no equal."
True, just like anyone with ears knows that Kendrick, Kacey, and SZA have no equal.
|
People argue about "taste"...
This question is not about taste if it was we can surmiss that some will defend the idea that marvel comic book beat Shakespeare and Beckett ...( i prefered marvel comic when i was under 10 )
The Beato cry was about the decreasing lyrical poetics content quality in popular chart...
Not about genres, not about tastes, not about nostalgia...
But it ask too much for people to think about why this phenomenon even exist instead they felt their taste is attacked and they argue about their innate right to their taste written in some chart ...
It is not a philosophical forum for sure but an audio one... Then i am faulty...
I apologize asking people to think ....
  
|
I discovered "blues" and "Gospel" in some mix of genius by Blind reverend Gary Davis, very long time ago...
I was not a fan of blues at the time nor of jazz...
I was flabbergasted not only by his voice and guitar playing but by his text and lyrics inspired from bible and prayers...
Truly moving ...
Then words matter...
I can listen to him with the same amazement today :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W9PuLcoZMM
Now recommend me an artist with the same authenticity today . They exist for sure but not on the top chart of music sorry and not in so great numbers than 70 years ago in the US but there is many around earth ...
What we lost in North America play chart is compensated by our access to world music in all genre ...
We have geniuses today as i said but the industry of music here has killed many artists...
|
Try this..... "She’s Making Friends, I’m Turning Stranger" Purple Mountains
|
^Actually, I suggest anyone interested in great music out of mainstream, check this out
Lyrics that invite, lyrics that have intrigue, lyrics that connect
|
Anyone with ears knows Joni, Paul, and Gordon have no equal.
My Dad,kind of thought the same thing, except he was in to The Lawrence Welk Show. I think it was "champagne music" or something like that. He thought it was pretty good and his mind seemed pretty much closed off about anything else.
|
Try this..... "She’s Making Friends, I’m Turning Stranger" Purple Mountains
I like it... Kind of reminds me of Michael Chapman
|
@stuartk
Please link me to some Rap in which melody is as prominent as the rhythmic delivery of the lyrics.
This is off the album ’The 18TH Letter’ from the Rap Artist - RAKIM with the rap/song ’Guess Who’s Back’ 1997 The beats/sample music is from the album ’Hands Down’ from the artist Bob James from the song ’Shaboozie’ This is an analog audio only version. Guess Who’s Back
This is a video off the album ’The 18TH Letter’ from the Rap Artist - RAKIM with the rap/song ’Guess Who’s Back’ 1997 The beats/sample music is from the album ’Hands Down’ from the artist Bob James from the song ’Shaboozie’ This is a live version recorded at The Blue Note in NYC 02/09/23 Rakim - Guess Who’s Back with Talib Kweli, Black Thought & Bob James at The Blue Note NYC 2-9-23
I wanted to show the live version so you can see these young men paying homage to one of the most melodic composers I’ve had the pleasure of listening to over these years and also them paying homage to back in the days when poetry was recited in the New York clubs over a cup of coffee with yes, sometimes a band.
This is a video off the album ’DAMN’ from the Rap Artist - Kendrick Lamar with the rap/song ’LOVE’ featuring Zacari 2017 The beats/sample music were made in the studio by in house studio producers. This is Kendrick Lamar’s attempt at making a love song. A very melodic love song if you will. This video is of its time and is very visually descriptive and forward but offers no disrespect to women. Kendrick Lamar - LOVE featuring Zacari
|
@immatthewj
Anyone with ears knows Joni, Paul, and Gordon have no equal.
Be sure to keep your dial glued to the oldies stations so that you will never have anything to compare with.
I'm sorry to laugh, but that was funny!
Actually, @tyray , at the time your post made me think of those lyrics (". . . memories can be friends . . .") I could not remember the name of the song. I did a google prior to that post, and the song title was Recently, and I just did another google, and that was released on the I Got A Name album. Which, as an aside, may have been the first cassette tape I ever bought, when I was a teenager, for my "stereo, which was a little portable cassette player. However, I also thought that Photographs And Memories was a pretty good song.
Yep, once I went back and googled Recently and Photographs And Memories it all made sense. Thank you
|
The Beato cry was about the decreasing lyrical poetics content quality in popular chart...
Not about genres, not about tastes, not about nostalgia...
But it ask too much for people to think about why this phenomenon even exist
Fair enough, allow me to take a stab or two
1. As has been pointed out previously, the zeitgest has moved on (can we say reversed itself). The 60s / 70s were a time of youth, newness, daring and creativity. You were not to trust anyone over 30. Heck, you were not to be over 30.
In the present era risk management reigns supreme, and what's safer than proven sellers?.Hence New Beetle, New Mustang, 80-year-old rockers selling out arenas all decked out in ADA ramps, the Marvel Universe, Mission Impossible 12, McIntosh amps, whatever.
This arc moves in unison with the XXL-sized boomer demographic passing through the boa constrictor of time.
2. What was once culture is now known as entertainment, and Internet has made possible its present, extreme granularity. This is rather a good thing in some ways: without Internet, many of us would have never known many of our favorite musical artists, and with the Internet there is no way that talentless British bands could ever turn the wholesale appropriation of Black folks' music into billion-dollar careers. If the Rolling Stones came up today, they would hustle to book gigs in half-empty taverns.
The downside is that a shared culture and a common language have been lost. Whether you loved the Stones or laughed at them, you knew them. Were you a rocker or a mod? Stones or Beatles? It's probably safe to say there is no equivalent today. Not that we ran out of reasons to fight each other, but that's a different conversation.
@mahgister
That beato character appears to be a bit controversial. Perhaps some folks reacted to him rather than to the questions you posed, which are very good questions indeed.
|
Thanks a lot for this great post!
the zeitgest has moved on
Right! And each zeitgeist reveal and take with it new sensibilities and new realities, then we cannot fault the zeitgeist nor the people born with it...
but we can observe his effects on us...
What was once culture is now known as entertainment, ..... The downside is that a shared culture and a common language have been lost.
Thats the problem Beato spoke about without being clear as you are in this post because he only observed one effect , the poverty of the lyrics....
Now thanks to your post we see more clearly the problem in our social fabric : the desintegration of the social fabric imposed by many new factors but also the new technology (the internet) .
The poverty of lyrics came with this disintegration of the social fabric and his manufacture by the corporations...
music is only a canary in the mines...
A.I. will do way worse...
I am not a luddite by the way...
Thanks to internet i read all books and science articles i want, which i could never dreamed about young because i did not have enough money...( i had bought 2,500 books at age 29 and i compute that the price was a big deposit on a big house i "lost" in useless studies for some )
Same for the music...
I like my computer...I am not luddite..
But this does not means that the internet is not a problem : we must recreate the social fabric in a conscious way from the bottom up. If not A.I. will finish the destruction of the social threefold fabric : culture/ free education-political participation-economical integration, A.I. will flatten this three dimension of man conscious activities to one dimension of total control under big corporations ( it is already the case in many fields as medecine, agriculture etc no more freedom ).
Going back to music and lyrics.
Culture is not about taste but about education.
When education is no more free in all sense of the word free, artistic work lost all meanings, and any product is there to satisfy an animal pleasure instinct, thats all ...
Crocodiles had taste. We must know why we love something and why we dont love something else . We must think, we are not crocodiles exhanging about the way to taste cadavers in the river bed or listen to this or that and it must be good then ....
And perhaps if we think we will know how and when and why lyrics are bad or not ...
Bob Dylan "taste" more Gerard Manly Hopkins than Marvel comics, i bet this is not a question of "taste" precisely.
«For sure i am elitist in the crowd»-- Groucho Marx
|
@mitchagain I agree with a lot of your examples and would add more like Patti Smith, Tom Verlaine, Richard Hell just in the 70s (poet/singers) and say the Raincoats for the late 70s and early 80s and Gang of Four in the 70s. I could go on and on.
In the 21st Century, I can think of Sufjan Stevens, Molly Rankin, Aimee Mann, James Mercer, Alex G., Angel Olsen, Adrienne Lenker, Madison Cunningham, Kristin Hersh, Trish Keenan (RIP), MIYNT, Courtney Barnett (a real wordsmith), Robert Smith is still at it, Sleater-Kinney and Sadie Dupuis just off the top of my head. I don't listen to rap very much but I don't discount the fact that some rap artists are really writing good stuff.
There is still probably about the same disproportional amount of bad lyrics to good lyrics. All you have to do is to look at the lists of the top 40 or so songs from each year and most of it is crap. You have to dig deeper to find the gems and there are many more women leading bands, writing songs and playing leads who are writing interesting stuff.
|
Throughout history, all art forms (acting - music - painting - writing) and sports go through periods of drought when it comes to someone achieving true and/or transcendent greatness. In those unfortunate times, what tends to happen is that the "very good" will probably get elevated to greatness by default.
Which makes for lively debate; and, this thread has certainly achieved that! So, kudos to all that have participated.
|
@devinplombier +1 on your post. The idea of culture morphing into entertainment and, truthfully, everything being an iteration of Gaming. It's like Taylor Swift timing her album releases to keep other artists off the charts. Everything seems to be a cult of personality race.
|
My # 1 criteria for good lyrics is: "Does it impress me on any and/or multiple levels?"
I forgot to mention Billy Bragg in my initial post. I submit the following examples, which all come from the same song ("Accident Waiting To Happen"):
Goodbye and good luck to all the rubbish that you've spoken - Goodbye and good luck to all the promises you've broken - Your life has lost its dignity, its beauty and its passion - You're an accident waiting to happen.
One of these nights you're gonna get caught - It'll give you pregnant pause for thought - You're a dedicated swallower of fascism (KINKS reference)
Time up and time out for all the liberties you've taken - Time up and time out for all the friends that you've forsaken - If you choose to waste away like death is back in fashion - You're an accident waiting to happen.
And my sins are so unoriginal - I have all the self-loathing of a wolf in sheep's clothing - In this carnival of carnivores, Heaven help me.
|
