Bob Dylan's Philosophy of Modern Song
https://afternature.substack.com/p/bob-dylans-philosophy-of-modern-song
«Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad» Rick Beato
He know better than me. He is a musician and i am not. I dont listen contemporary lyrics anyway, they are not all bad for sure, but what is good enough is few waves in an ocean of bad to worst...
I will never dare to claim it because i am old, not a musician anyway, i listen classical old music and world music and Jazz...
And old very old lyrics from Franco-Flemish school to Léo Ferré and to the genius Bob Dylan Dylan...
Just write what you think about Beato informed opinion...
I like him because he spoke bluntly and is enthusiast musician ...
Showing 49 responses by mahgister
I cannot describe what is at the core of jazz which is such that all musicians in the world in many different culture had begun to adopt it and used it to improve even their own innate musical language or their traditional instruments...
Observe that this is a fact not my opinion or my invention. there is jazz influences in Russia, as in japan or South America or in mid-eastern countries. Everywhere almost... There is jazz using oud for example in a mix which is some mideastern music instrument used in a jazz way...
But i can gave my explanation...
In jazz i felt a specific musical flowing time and timing sense a freedom which is related to the way musicians feel what a good improvisation is and must be and if it is successful one...
In other musical culture the importance of the specific instruments timbre and chords traditionally used act as a restraint because the final goal is more linked to specific traditional chosen instruments playing than to the improvisation with many non specifically chosen instruments as such as in jazz ( hammond or tuba or etc)...
The rules in traditional musics are more constraining than in jazz concerning the chosen instruments in use and concerning the rules over the improvisation session itself.
For example in India the veena is revered as a gift from Saraswati, his improvisations are heavily codified and the way to play the sound go with rigid rules.Same for the tabla. As it is for the Yoruba talking drums...
The way to play instruments are not so heavily codified in jazz... It is why jazz expressions styles had changed so much from so many different names,( bop , hard bop etc of style in 70 years golden age.
Jazz spirit is more free more easy to adopt even in the confine of other music traditions.
It is why i claimed that Jazz improvisation is universally influential in a way no other world music ever be save european classical written music tradition. this is less my claims than well known observable facts.
Also these two western music styles goes together, jazz and classical, with the same chords language and with some common background. ( negro spirituals, folk music & hymns of the pilgrims for example ) and had more influence all around earth together than any other musical traditional cultures on earth.
( japan music, Indian music and African music, Chinese music , Turkisch music has not that much in common as jazz and classical has)
I am not a musician and yes i need frogman here to correct me or to validate in a more professionnal way what i try to convey ...
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For sure all music styles all over the world wrote their own syntax rules integrating if not potentially all instruments as for jazz a few even many (India-Persia). It is well known to anybody who like world music as i am ... But there is only one style which goes all around earth as an influences doing it at this scale and for such different cultures... No other genres did it as jazz did...I like Fado for example but it stayed in Portuguese world mainly and his syntax let no trace in Japan as Jazz did..
For sure all world music is based on improvisation... I like chinese music and japan traditional music, none of it let his syntax rules and chord scales imprint all around the world... Black traditional jazz begun to do it, it extended to all America, it reach Europe then it encompassed the world.. Is it pure jazz as in the golden age of jazz ? No.. Is it jazz at 100% like in the golden age now in all countries by those musicians calling themselves jazzmen? No.. But it does not invalidate my point that jazz became if not the only at least the main universal matrix of influence for all improvised music around the world so much that the classical folk music of many countries begun to kept jazz as an inspiration for his own growing transforming essence ... As Hollywood film making influenced all the world cinema... Is it a good thing ? For the Hollywood influence on other countries cinema i dont think it was only a good influence, it is a mix... For jazz it is almost all good influence... There is something new and universal in improvised jazz language at his core... As there is something universal exportable from this WRITTEN classical syntax european music ...So deep and original sophisticated are Indian and Persian music they were not exportable as Jazz or classical were... Yoruba talking drums language inspired the greatest acoustician i read but it is not universally exportable as a useful integrating syntax even if music is a universal understood language, not as exportable and integrating form as jazz improvisation rules and classical written language were...Because in all cultures the perceived meanings depend more of a specific instrument depth core timbre/tone meanings as physical instrument . Being Yoruba drums or tabla or all Veena variations or all various lutes family or flutes variation in Turkisch sufi music etc..
Frogman here being a musician can certainly better than me speak about it...
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Now i will link together what i said about jazz universality and classical music universality and the discovery of Dr. Essien.
All music is universal, in any genre from any countries by definition of this second article experiment above and by Dr. Essien great discovery...
Then why i spoke only about jazz universality and classical music universality ? Is it not contradictory ? No Jazz is the only language becoming universal by virtue of his improvising syntax set of rules integrating all instruments and music styles slowly but surely ... Classical European music is becoming universal by virtue of his WRITING syntax rule integrating all others world music language ...
All music of the world is universal in the sense of owning the potentials to be understood by all humans... Because music is a recognizing timbre/rytmic /tonal event based on mechanical invariant (Essien) affecting the human body in a similar way universally .. It is not Pythagorean mathematics harmonies abstraction and computations that makes music universal , it is the ability by the human heart-brain-body to be affected by it in the same way all around earth ... The sound sources vibrating communicate qualities and information about what vibrate and his state...This is the mechanical invariant of Dr. Essien... When a man speak to another man there is information communicating to one another about their psychological and physical states... i will stop here ... Read the book... |
This second important experimental study done independently of Dr. Essien prove Dr. Essien right about hearing acoustics fundamental theory : Bodily maps of musical sensations across culturesI apologize to go astray from my original thread post matter but what i suggest reading is very important news,.... https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2308859121
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There is african culture in africa and in south America for sure.. This dont contradict my point at all ...
Yoruba talking drums is not as jazz and classical a musical language that can be universal as jazz and classical are on all earth... This is not detrimental to yoruba talking drum music nor to raga music... When i talk about Jazz becoming universal i talk about the way IMPROVISATION language became universal in a jazz like manner... As Classical music became universal integrating all others musical language in his WRITING syntax...
By the way if you like yoruba talking drum as me i recommend to you the best book ever on theoretical acoustics by a nigerian genius which had hard time with the English academia and published his doctorate thesis at the Sorbonne... I bought it and thanks to him i understood theoretic acoustics because no other book explain it as he did and it was confirmed this year by 2 important independant studies Dr, essien is a youruba talking drums master and the yoruba drums is at the core of his acoustics understanding : One of the most important book i ever read but he is unknown because people take time to go out of a past 2000 years Pythagorean paradigm : https://www.amazon.ca/Sound-Sources-Origin-Auditory-Sensations/dp/1913289540
Listen to this 8 minutes video about Dr. Essien a true genius who come from Africa which is his original sin ( racism exist ) . Reading his 500 pages book i knew right away he was a genius because no one was able to explain acoustics of hearing to me till i study him... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-6vW8kVCO4&t=1s
Here are one of the 2 articles related to deep discoveries in musical perception acoustics confirming Dr. Essien right : https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.html Academia did not seem to has recognized Dr. Essien discoveries way before these 2 independent experiments demonstrating that his thesis is right... Racism exist. And Conclusion : 2,000 years of an error made by Pythagoras lead acoustics theory astray... The correction of this Greek teaching came from Nigeria. Not london, Paris or New-York... Acoustics hearing ground theory understanding is very important for philosophy and science. fundamental.
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Classical music is no more a white european phenomena. In japan and in China there is classical composers and musicians... Classical music is an earth global phenomena... Dont miss-read my intention in the above post... Music has roots but sometimes the trees send his seeds into another forest... It is the same process with Jazz... is it clear?
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You read me wrong... I never say that there is not many young in jazz... I said that compared to 1960 the % is lower for many reason : many different niche genres born from pop and folk ... Access easy to this new genres through a phone... I also said that the future of jazz is there and growing... You miss this... Because with the internet in all countries jazz music is trending way more than in 1970 now... Jazz is no more only black as in 1930, no more American as in 1960 it is universal music phenomenon as classical...it is born in black america but reach all earth in a way no other genre music did save classical... One of my favorite music genre is Yoruba talking drums and Indian tabla, i love rythms but it will never go around the earth as jazz did ... Jazz is now eternal... It will not fade into oblivion... But young generation need education to it as with classical for the same reasons: sophisticated music evolution need to be learned... |
I dont think that young people right now are into jazz... The tendence is to a falling number of young jazz listeners... With all the niche listening phenomenon , the increasing of the new medias Jazz cannot be an increasing favored genre ... It is evident...Jazz is now an old musical genre competing with new one... This statistics only illustrated a tendency which cannot be decreasing anyway after the generalization of the internet use and portable phone from which many niche genre music appeared. There is no reason for this statistics to had changed because an increase of jazz which is a more intellectual music genre is less probable and ask for an education to it...
Another phenomena is masked here by this statistics concerning jazz falling numbers of young listeners, is the influence of jazz and easy diffusion now because of the internet all around the globe in all culture... jazz listeners has increased in the same time as young listeners of jazz in America had deceased... Jazz has his roots in black America but it is no more an American event it is globalised and there is many jazz musicians of first order in all countries now...With internet since 25 years Jazz has be listened to freely everywhere..
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«This paper discusses the changes in the demographics of young people attending jazz events. Since
It is a UK study but it will be probably around the same % figure in the US.
«Stuart Nicholson argues for subsidy as a bulwark against the homogenisation of the market place for jazz: We are, then, at a key moment in jazz history. The music is being reshaped and reimagined beyond the borders of the United States through the process of glocalisation and transculturation with increasing authority by voices asserting their own cultural identity on the music. Non-American musicians want to connect with their own surroundings and want to give the music life and vitality that is relevant to their own socio-musical situation, so they are broadening the expressive base of the music in ways over which American jazz has no control. Key to these developments in Europe is that they are not a response to commercial logic. Sheltered by subsidy from the homogenizing effect of this marketplace, the music has been able to grow and develop in ways musicians want, rather than conforming to the expectations of the marketplace or shaped by the conventions of previous practice (Nicholson, 2005). On the other hand, Eric Hobsbawm in Uncommon People takes a different angle: Is jazz becoming terminally fossilized? It is not impossible. If this should be the fate of jazz, it will not be much consolation that Clint Eastwood has buried Bird in a celluloid mausoleum and that every hairdresser and cosmetics store plays tapes of Billie Holiday. However, jazz has shown extraordinary powers of survival and self renewal inside a society not designed for it and which it does not deserve. It is too early to think that its potential is exhausted. Besides, what is wrong with just listening and letting the future take care of itself (Hobsbawm, 1998). Many people wrestle with the word jazz; Peter Ind, jazz musician, environmentalist, painter and author says people “like the word but hate the music”. However, if jazz is that bad why do cosmetic companies, car dealers and car manufacturers fall over themselves to exploit the word jazz? A rhetorical question and best answered by the simple fact that there is a market out there with definable characteristics and with people who may only like one genre of jazz or a number of genres; or the “early adopter” who attends the innovative variety. Jazz is a broad church and when there is an altercation in the choir stall or the vestry, someone is busily adding an extension to the chancel. Hobsbawm is right to let the music take care of itself but we should use every tool available to market jazz from the classroom to old and new media. The answer to the question “how can you rebuild the audience aged 15-24 is inextricably bound up with access to hearing jazz. When you go to see a film you buy the ticket first ‘but music is different – and radio proves that whether it is a pop tune, a heavily political punk album or an experimental avant garde suite the key is very simple: people have to hear it – repeatedly if possible – and for free. After a while if you’re lucky people get to know and like the music. Sooner or later they are going to have to own it” (Dubber, 2007). Exposure has always been – for jazz – a defining component that affects the eventual buying decision. For example, thejazz, the UK's first 24 hours-a-day digital national radio station launched at Easter 2007, had 334,000 listeners in the RAJAR survey period ending in June 2007. By the period ending 16 September 2007 the listenership had increased to 388,000 or an increase of 16 per cent. In addition to the 338k 15+ listeners to thejazz, there were 53,000 children under the age of 15 listening in each week (Byrnes, 2007). thejazz came off the air in March 2008 due to a proposed takeover bid. To rebuild attendance at jazz events by the 16-24 year age group, the use of radio and new media is crucial and tactics need to be researched, developed and refined in a way that will enable promoters and musicians to gain access to the ears of young people and 16+ listeners.» Chris Hodgkins
https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/am-09-2013-0015/full/html |
Now listen to Beato opinions in 15 minutes about top songs of 2024 :
As i said i like Beato because he is like an open book persona: TOP 10 SONGS OF 2024??https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKYswE7wj1c
He is way more patient than me with songs lyrics and music... i want pure beauty and moving heart and total originality not just merely good professional work to listen casually ... I listen Bach casually not well done professional song ... The song i put above of Gaelynn Lea is better on all counts than all these 24 list ( save Teddy Swims, and Billie Eilish with my honorable mention )...None of them moves me 1 inches , Gaelynn Lea peirced the heart... I am not a good public...They all sound to me as manufactured product... Not Gaelynn Lea... Or Cosmo Sheldrake...Or "Rich men from Richmond" ..These three as for me true artists not performers in the quest for a hit...
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Certainly a great actual artist and great lyrics... Someday We’ll Linger in the Sun 🌅 Performed by Gaelynn Lea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HaSKgPjk6g Or this version of the same magnificent song by a true artist ( not a manufactured one) : |
I concur with ezwind...
I will only add that the media and the corporations work to manufacture not only the singers and products, but they manufacture a specialized niche public too, as pointed above in my article about South-Korean pop great success and exportation methods... Then:
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You are exactly right in my opinion... i also liked the song you mentioned for his sincere engagement and clever words... A song can have meaningful words without the poetry of a Nobel prize winner and touch us...It was the case with "Rich man" ... It was not a "manufactured product for a "manufactured" Zombies public... Thanks...
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Not necessary to apologize i do not understand your point anyway... :) The use of chat gtp and A.I. is my main focus point about society right now... I just begun to uncover the new "religion" aspect from it from mathematics to society... I am flabbergasted to say the least ..
I wish you the best of year and the health necessary to enjoy life ... |
South Korea POP is becoming a model globally ... They manufacture the artist as well as the public by controlling all steps of the product... The lyrics are no more created by an independant FREE poet or artist as Cohen, Dylan, Lennon, Mitchell etc were but the young talent is taken under a controlling corporate wings ... Is their lyrics will be bad? No not necessarily bad... Is their lyrics will be good ? No for the most of them... A manufactured set of lyrics tailor made for an artist and a tailor made public all controlled by the corporation made the artist work and sell... But forget poetry and inspired music... Thats was Beato point as i understood it and my point ... It is not and was never about taste or old age nostalgia... The change in the music industry goes hand in hand with a change deeper in the social fabric threefold organisation( culture/education-political participation-economoic association ) this change consist in the reduction and flattening of the threefold layers of the social fabric by corporate powers and A.I. to a single totally controlled unique layer... Over our head and under our feet as individuals we are taken in charge... ( the events of the last years are revelatory about that ) There is no free poet in a hive...the lyrics of the hive are neither good or bad they are standardized and tailor made... No nostalgia for me about Dylan or the Beatles , no hate of any young actual artist... I even mention one i just discovered above... Simply most lyrics on the chart sucks in a way or in another... This does not means that there is no more genius in music ...
Korean Music Companies Are Exporting More Than K-Pop: How They’re Changing the Global Music BusinessThe next step in K-pop’s growth may lie not in music itself, but in exporting K-pop’s disciplined development, production and promotion model.
https://www.billboard.com/pro/korean-music-companies-exporting-k-pop-model-globally/ If you want to read this instructive article: use the adress in the web site : "Browse a cleaner web" |
For sure you are right, it is just plain common sense.. But..... Any Bob Dylan songs for example is well written... Or Léo Ferré or Jacques Brel in french... The well done poetic content speak to anyone at any age... Anybody can feel "ne me quittes pas" powerful words even at 85 years old passed the teen days of girls letting him on the border of the road... It is certain that song content speak to some specific listener at some age. but this has nothing to do with his lyrical litterary value...And the reason why we listen Brel, Ferré, Dylan or Cohen today is for their litterary and musical quality...The listener age dont matter... The only one creating songs specifically for teen for example in the yéyé era were the singers working for a market identified by the industry... These songs had no more any interest save for nostalgia and are lying in the graveyard of bad commercial music..
We dont listen the Beatles best songs mainly by nostalgia for our teen years but because they are well written...
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You miss the point here. Zappa was writing this in an era where non sense in lyrics was not frequent at all like nowadays and he wrote it as "humor"...View from this perspective it is well written... Like you, by the way, but i was young and too serious ( in classical) i missed this wink from a great musician recommend as such as an original "wink" by my friend not as a model of song lyrical poetry ... This song worked well because he is always played on the wave...As a "wink" ...
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My best friends introduce me to Zappa when i had 15 years old, he was more educated musically so to speak... I under-appreciated completely it to say the least but today i gave him his due... I just spoke to this friend this week about this song ... He was the one who spoke to me about Cosmo Sheldrake... You dont want to loose friend from 60 years ago , he beat my wife by 10 years (this year) ...
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It is not about how kids wrote their music bad or good. It is about the social fabric transforming us into consumers of trash... I am not nostalgic... I listened only Bach when most listened Pop music in the golden age...
We are not in the obligation to accept mediocrity to be cool and to be able to go with the crowd...
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A negative motivated in a clear proposition can induce intelligent discussion... I think all responses were polite and interesting even those beside the thread question... Beato is not a negative person but an enthusiast... I like his posts because of his honesty, right or wrong, he is humorous and plain as Amish bread... |
Thanks a lot for this great post!
Right! And each zeitgeist reveal and take with it new sensibilities and new realities, then we cannot fault the zeitgeist nor the people born with it... but we can observe his effects on us...
Thats the problem Beato spoke about without being clear as you are in this post because he only observed one effect , the poverty of the lyrics....
Now thanks to your post we see more clearly the problem in our social fabric : the desintegration of the social fabric imposed by many new factors but also the new technology (the internet) . The poverty of lyrics came with this disintegration of the social fabric and his manufacture by the corporations... music is only a canary in the mines... A.I. will do way worse... I am not a luddite by the way... Thanks to internet i read all books and science articles i want, which i could never dreamed about young because i did not have enough money...( i had bought 2,500 books at age 29 and i compute that the price was a big deposit on a big house i "lost" in useless studies for some ) Same for the music... I like my computer...I am not luddite.. But this does not means that the internet is not a problem : we must recreate the social fabric in a conscious way from the bottom up. If not A.I. will finish the destruction of the social threefold fabric : culture/ free education-political participation-economical integration, A.I. will flatten this three dimension of man conscious activities to one dimension of total control under big corporations ( it is already the case in many fields as medecine, agriculture etc no more freedom ).
Going back to music and lyrics. Culture is not about taste but about education. When education is no more free in all sense of the word free, artistic work lost all meanings, and any product is there to satisfy an animal pleasure instinct, thats all ...
Crocodiles had taste. We must know why we love something and why we dont love something else . We must think, we are not crocodiles exhanging about the way to taste cadavers in the river bed or listen to this or that and it must be good then .... And perhaps if we think we will know how and when and why lyrics are bad or not ... Bob Dylan "taste" more Gerard Manly Hopkins than Marvel comics, i bet this is not a question of "taste" precisely.
«For sure i am elitist in the crowd»-- Groucho Marx |
I discovered "blues" and "Gospel" in some mix of genius by Blind reverend Gary Davis, very long time ago... I was not a fan of blues at the time nor of jazz... I was flabbergasted not only by his voice and guitar playing but by his text and lyrics inspired from bible and prayers... Truly moving ... Then words matter... I can listen to him with the same amazement today : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W9PuLcoZMM Now recommend me an artist with the same authenticity today . They exist for sure but not on the top chart of music sorry and not in so great numbers than 70 years ago in the US but there is many around earth ... What we lost in North America play chart is compensated by our access to world music in all genre ... We have geniuses today as i said but the industry of music here has killed many artists...
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People argue about "taste"... This question is not about taste if it was we can surmiss that some will defend the idea that marvel comic book beat Shakespeare and Beckett ...( i prefered marvel comic when i was under 10 ) The Beato cry was about the decreasing lyrical poetics content quality in popular chart... Not about genres, not about tastes, not about nostalgia... But it ask too much for people to think about why this phenomenon even exist instead they felt their taste is attacked and they argue about their innate right to their taste written in some chart ... It is not a philosophical forum for sure but an audio one... Then i am faulty... I apologize asking people to think ....
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The impoverishment of vocabulary and the separation of music in narrow niches is a way to control the masses and are not random events... Corporations pilot education as well as music industry as a manufactured product...
This is implied by Beato observation and not spell clearly... I am not nostalgic by the way i discovered new genius in music each month. But they are not in the popular hit parade ... When i was young anyway i did not listen really much to any popular music, be it Beatles and all groups music, i was in classical music and poetry. If i feel nostalgic of my young years i will listen, Bach , Josquin des prez, Gabrieli, Vivaldi, Léo Ferré a poet, and Ravi Shankar and Moondog and Bob Dylan or Blind Gary Davis with magnificent text lyrics... I did not had any albums of pop or rock .... Then count me out for nostalgic listening of pop music by old age ... I discovered Jazz recently 30 years ago... i was handicapped in my music exploration young because of my exclusive love of music before Mozert,... I discovered Bruckner and Scriabin recently 30 years ago.... Poetry and text in lyrics matter as much to me than music... It is why i like Kurt Weill so much.... |
It seems some people dont get the point... 1----There is plenty of great lyrics today because the number of talented people in all genre is roughly the same % 2----But there is not a collective positive movement created by the lyrics as it was a case few generations ago... ( negativity is easy to create by sheer provocation but it is not art) 3---- And if we compare the poetic content and value of what is heard and favored on many medias the levels of quality is lower ... Thats Beato point as i understood it ..
My own takes about this : The corporations power over the artist deveopment and content are more heavy nowadays and it result in a mechanization of the minds and of the products... Jonie Mitchell and Madonna are not the same on artistry level... Sorry ... But the 2 are very talented.... One is an artist on a musical and poetical way , the others is more an influencer and a provocative asset... She sell herself as a product...Many "artist" nowadays sell themselves as a product name...
Now the poetic value of a lyrics is a litterary quality not a question about taste or nostalgia ...It is not related to the singer talent either, some vocalist could move crowd reciting the telephone book ...
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Beato is just a guitarist musician among others.. I never say that he was more...He does not claim more either. But i like his video because he had no pretense save saying his mind in a funny way... And he know guitar music and a little more ... I select this video as start of discussion not because he was an authority but because for me there is truth in what he tried to convey ...
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No offence! You are right and knowledgeable more than me about Rap meanings and history... My point is about the mechanization of music , musicians and the public... The point made by Beato... There is genius poets in jazz music and songs as there is in all genre rap included...Even nowadays for sure... My point stemming from Beato video is about mechanisation and manufacturing of lyrics and music ... I had my taste but i am not deaf... I did not like blues for example till i listen Hooker and Waters and few others... There is genius everywhere... But there is also by the industry growing monster a mechanization of mind and public... And this mechanization reach a point of great power over artists and public molding their minds in the last 30 years...
It is my opinion but i am not an informed musician...
We need frogman ...
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There is great music in rap or R&B but this genre are very difficult to do with musical mastery... Why ? Because they are as powerful than instinctually simple... It takes genius not ordinary musician and singer...Sorry... Who can rival Muddy Waters singing blues ? Not many singers... I am not a blues afficionado at all but i like Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker and very very few others... I like them because they are great artist not because they sang blues... For me they are the blues in a way no other one can be...
Then there is geniuses in all genres... But i dont like most genres only few geniuses...
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Language exist in social context... Muddy Waters wrote great lyrics we called blues classics ... but the same thing today said by an another voice with the same words will be ridiculous. Then what define good lyrics and bad one are not only the individual singer but the social context and specific era....And the microtonal accents of his vocal chords....The same text read by X will sound atrocious and read by Y marvellous...
Poetry lives also in time eras... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyjRslYlC3A
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The problem is this : "meaning" is conveyed in language not on an uni-lateral way but in a multi-polar way ...Meaning exist not on one level but is articulated on many levels, from phonology to pragmatic levels... Grounded in biology and in the body gestures rythms and vocal gestures rythms and tones are the poetical level of meaning... Then there is a syntaxical level in speech which has nothing to do with the concept of syntax in the formal language, because human speech syntax is not a "formal" machine even if it can be analysed formally as Chomsky did. ( Gustave Guillaume goes deeper here) At the top there is analogy which is irreducible to logic no more than metaphor... ( A.I. use statistical engines to decodes it not logic) The scientific prosaic meaning is a mere half part of language meaning...The most efficient part but not the only and more important meaningfulness...( try to imagine a world of robot communication to understand my point , human social fabric is not a hive )
What is poetry ? Not non sense as superficial look can put it, but deep meaning : " a felt change of consciousness" caused by the way we use words said Owen Barfield in "poetic diction".. Litterature is as powerful as equations. Why did Grothendieck used the metaphor"dessins d’enfants" to describe the mathematical concept of some schemes ? Because it speak more directly about the meaning intended and it convey the way the mathematician mind felt the change from the top of the geometrical iceberg draught by a child to his inside hidden depth. https://www.ams.org/notices/200307/what-is.pdf
The meaning of poetry even when i dont understand the Farsi language in a song for example is there anyway between sounds...I "understand" it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS065XPSCFc
My point was that poetry in popular music is as much important as music and part of it... If the language degenerate in a culture the rest degenerate, even if we had A.I. and especially if we had A.I.
When we speak badly or partially staying on one level instead of using language multidimensionality we think badly... There is a difference between a bad journaslist and a great poet or a great thinker, but a common point : linear annoying day to day prose.
«We never fall in love "in" prose»--Groucho Marx |
An era cannot be defined by his geniuses nor his geniuses can be explained by the era where they are born... I believe in a synchronisation between the genius and his era... Bob Dylan was made by his era and he contribute to his era make-off , they were synchronised...
It is well explained by Richard Tarnas in "Cosmos and Psyche" ...
Our era is an era of corporates control to a level never seen in human history, than education, medias, arts, are conditioned at birth and all along to satisfy "the owners" and we are not these owners... It is no surprize that for the last decades the spirit of the era was the mechanization of the minds... How can a poet sing against A.I. as Dylan did against vietnam and the Beatles ? Is there no motives to sing a rebel song now ? The social fabric has been pulverized to pieces. Protestations are now expressions of divisions and not a union against our masters ... Music, lyrics, cannot go where our mind did not go... They comply ... And a cry which cannot be heard is never launched... A cry can made a beautiful poetical moving lyric if it is not just a refusal cry but a cry of hope too... I dont see much hope ... We dont lack geniuses , in music or poetry, we lack the grip on our own destiny and in our social fabric... There is nowhere in history great works of art without a firm grip by man in his social fabric... Technocracy is not expression of a firm grip on the social fabric by the people but by very few and not to serve people but their own survival... |
Do you know how many concepts are necessary to define rythm in music ? My point was not against the popular concept of beat or the musical one but against the mechanization of rythm and his simplification by an industry mechanizing our mind...
In the same way do you know how many concepts are necessary to define musical time ? The degradation of musical time in simplistic "beat" is a fact...
Now i attack no genre being "rap" or "heavy metal" or "pop" because there is great music in all these genre... My point is about an impoverishment across most genres... By the way rythm is the essence of music and the ground zero of music for reason linked to the gestural body, members and mouth.... my favorite music is African Yoruba speaking drum..... ( my favorite book about theoretical acoustics is written by a master of this instrument )
If we want to understand someone we must understand what he spoke about... I never intended to speak against rap or beat... ( there is plenty of great poetical texts in rap by the way ) But against their degradation by a process of manufacturation of the product and of the public which exist in almost all genres......
I dont attack musical taste, i claim that music has nothing to do with taste but with education of our taste...
I am not born with taste for some opo artist or for bach or for yoruba drum... I learned about myself discovering some ...
«My crocodile too had "good" taste»-- Groucho Marx
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In Herman Hesse novel "the Glass bead game" there is a quote about a Chinese emperor ordering the music master to his throne to be punished because of the troubles in the Empire.
In Imperial China in the golden era the link between the harmony in the social fabric and the high state of the music were fundamental... This is not just an anecdote but pure science or pure experience...
Now put a bad music which appeal to the animal and violent part of men with disintegrating lyrics near water crystallisation process... Then try it with a christian monk and Buddhist monk prayers... Analyse the resulting water crystallisations...
Music and audio are not about taste but about our own acoustic and musical education... Poetry in music is not about mere taste it is also about good harmony and complex musical time...
Then music is not about leisure time merely but about a "felt change in consciousness"... |
The disintegration of speech and language depth in lyrics is not a fact about "taste" but about mind conditioning in an uneducated controlled social fabric.. The mastery of language by song writer artist is a strong indicator of their mastery of music too. At least a genius musician can collaborate with a poet... The decline of the poetic content and value of music goes with a simplification of chords, harmony, and the reduction of musical time complexities to a mere beat... Music for robot is not a question of taste but a question about the social fabric inducing consumers habits.
Why do you think Joni Mitchell hated Madonna ? As a work of art hate manufactured product.
" Beat is not music, it is mind under control using bodies said my training G.I. sergeant; who himself never dance"-- Groucho Marx
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My three favorite more powerful song ever written Are : Jacques Brel : "Ne me quitte pas" Léo Ferré : "Avec le temps"
Bob Dylan : "Murder most Foul"
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Cosmo Sheldrake album is a good start... Nobody can replace Dylan or Cohen... But someone else different may come... This album i posted above of Cosmo Sheldrake is as good poetry than these 2 giants first album... Wait 30 years and we will see what Cosmo Sheldrake could do...
There is many others i dont know... My point is popular music nowadays is atrocious not by lack of geniuses in music but by the way the industry manufacture the public itself...and format any talent under his thumb...I will not give name because i dont want to hurt or provoke useless debate... It is called mind programmation and control... It is a science... If someone is not conscious of that he cannot understand anything around him...
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Another song by Cosmo Sheldrake : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzaCJHKwhpI lyrics is under the video....
Another good lyrics with meanings suggested as a flying impression : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYgF5VLKUtw
Another one i love to death: |
Now even if i hate most manufactured music with provocative non poetic lyrics... There is geniuses on earth right now but not on the pop chart... Here for example a proof of young talents which i admired... It remind me of Frank Zappa genius... Cosmo Sheldrake is the son of the famous English biologist... And poetry is there... I adore this song ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qigAJiydFWs
Lyrics: Old ocean, Thank you for holding me, Won’t be the same without you, Facts on the move again,
Truths on the hoof they say, Oh, can’t you see, It’s lost in the everyday, It slid so far away, From you and me.
Old ocean, Thank you for holding me, Rocked by an endless motion, Afloat in a ceaseless sea, Won’t be the same without you.
Loves on the loose again, Long in the tooth they say, Or lost at sea, Good has gone away, It seems it’s there to stay, What will be will be.
Old ocean, Thank you for holding me, Rocked by an endless motion, Afloat in a ceaseless sea, Won’t be the same without you.
Whether calm or weather stormy, Whether green or blue, Whether vain or whether haughty, Whether win or lose.
Whether truth or just a story, You can’t pick and choose, Whether blunt or whether thorny It’s not up to you.
Old ocean, Thank you for holding me, Rocked by an endless motion, Afloat in a ceaseless sea, Won’t be the same without you. |
For sure you are right! That was the era convergent complicities, everyone was ready to discover not so much consumate a product... The young generations was educated and very distinct from his fathers... We were lucky...
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The musicians of today so talented they are answer to their potential customer... The level of "poetry" in a lyric cannot be fake and cannot be judged by his popularity... At all ...And it is not related to musical ability... Add to this lyric any music good or bad it will not change the content and form value... I cannot listen more than one time a lyric with no deep or beautiful and moving content... I listen casually pop music in my car and i am retired then i am cut from the pop chart but most of what i listened too in the last 20 years did not move me a lot... The last time a pop artist move me it was Bob Dylan at 80 years old... And it is not by nostalgia but by his genius...
The truth is the public also must be talented and educated...No musician nevermind his genius can win over smartphone swift consumers pop with non sensical words... There is a science behind creating a product for immediate consumation... There is no science to create a spiritual moving event.... There is many geniuses artist today as much as there was 60 years ago but i am pretty sure they dont play often on the top of the chart... They surf for survival... Great artists emerge in specific era not only because of their talent but supported by a waiting and prepared public... I am not sure that Miles Davis would easily became a myth today as it was 80 years ago in a prepared environment ready for the trumpet Messiah he was...
Perhaps i am wrong i will wait for frogman informed opinion,.... |
Frogman as professional informed musician said it better and it is what i understood too from Beato video and the reason why i posted it as a step for a reflexion. it is not about "taste" or nostalgia it is about the musical sophistication levels and the popularity chart levels... There is as much good musicians than in the past today by the way...
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I am not a musician. I trust musicians more than myself to speak about music in general especially popular music which i cannot enjoy since the Bob Dylan and Beatles era.
I post this because i am curious to read others opinion and i like Rick Beato anyway .. .
My dear friend i disagree with you here...
Rick Beato as frogman are better informed than me about jazz, popular music and probably all other genres.. i respected musicians very deeply...
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