The disintegration of speech and language depth in lyrics is not a fact about "taste" but about mind conditioning in an uneducated controlled social fabric..
I will never agree with such an over simplified statement, as I am an American Father who has raised a very well educated Son, and he is the one who educated me on this so called ’Rap Music’ whom some say it is not music at all and is of no relevancy whatsoever. You need to open your eyes (and ears). Within the last 3 to 6 months this ’kid’ has released about 2 to 3 albums worth of material that has rocked the music industry world, especially with his iconic ’They not like us’. This ’kid’ won a 2018’ Pulitzer Prize for MUSIC, for the song entitled DAMN -
’For distinguished musical composition by an American that has had its first performance or recording in the United States during the year,’
(The)Recording released on April 14, 2017, a virtuosic song collection unified by its vernacular authenticity and rhythmic dynamism that offers affecting vignettes capturing the complexity of modern African-American life.
The above statements are good enough for me. Kendrick Lamar has also won grammys and the artist is scheduled to perform at the upcoming Super Bowl on February 3rd 2025, imagine that.
The decline of the poetic content and value of music goes with a simplification of chords, harmony, and the reduction of musical time complexities to a mere beat...
"Beat is not music, it is mind under control using bodies said my training G.I. sergeant; who himself never dance"-- Groucho Marx cool
@mahgister , you’re my guy and you have taught me so much, but I disagree with you on the ’Beat’ thing. The one instrument that someone tried to teach me in a very formal ways were the Drums. The drum(s) has held an still holds too this day a very powerful position in music by holding down the beat. In the continent of Africa, no matter where you lived, or what tribe you came from, the drum (beat) was the most powerful piece of (mass) communication. It was said that when someone played the drum(s) they were ’Evoking The Gods’.
And this MUSICAL tradition has lasted for thousands’ of years. To which has been passed down to many on the North and South American continents and continues, to this day.
Even in ancient (Europe) Rome and Greece, and other European countries/cultures the examples drums were used to monitor the speed of the oars men and the drum was also used in the Military Application of displacements of fighting mens regiments. Not to mention for the Social and Cultural Impact in Religious and Sacred Ceremonies. Indeed, I have to say the Drum or Beat, is part of the fabric of humanity itself.
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This 'kid' I'm talking about...His name is Kendrick Lamar
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@stuartk
Where does it say that Rap music doesn’t have Melody or Melodies? The Rap that I’ve had the limited amount of time to listen to not only has melodies but very good musicians backing the artist, whether live or recorded. Key word - artist. Even in rap itself the phrase ’the beat(s)’ is actually a misnomer. In rap a beat is a construct of many different musical components designed to hold a groove. Whether it be a melodic ’love’ rap or a rap dance song, not just a (computer?) driven drum beat.
Although rap is not a favorite of mine I have been fortunate enough to has enjoyed some of the ’club bangers’ as the kids have called them over the years of rappers music with music samples of some of the best music ever. I just had to respond to some of the absolutism or is it elitism here.
The disintegration of speech and language depth in lyrics is not a fact about "taste" but about mind conditioning in an uneducated controlled social fabric..
And about vibration(s)? I’ve already made lengthy responses to that subject, here on Audiogon. And Rick Beato, I wholeheartedly agree with you on him, I've responded to him once that I was not in agreement with some of his comments
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Uhhh, I did NOT say I was a 70 year old boomer.. That was someone else and I think that post was taken down, maybe?
We were very fortunate, Dad served in WW2 and was able to get decent employment with the federal government and he had one of those I was think it was a Motorola console? I think they were called that? And he let my sisters play whatever they wanted, but that was only on Saturday, maybe Sunday, and when he was working during the day.
He wasn't hard on them he just liked to keep them busy around the house because they were his girls...It's funny cause I remember as a little kid Pops, had a lot of Frank Sinatra 78rpm's he collected over the years as a young man.
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The lyrics of many of these songs, especially modern Hip Hop/R&B are absolutely horrible. They are venal, vulgar, misogynistic, and disgusting. Some are just banal but there is a pretty big subset of lyrics that were unimaginable 40 years ago. I drive along at 70 mph with my mouth agape hardly believing that I’m actually hearing what I’m hearing. I recommend that you break out of your bubble and listen to this stuff to get a sense of what young people are hearing.
"Sweet Little Sixteen" by Chuck Berry (1958)
Sweet Little Sixteen, she’s got the grown-up blues - tight dresses and lipstick, she sportin’ high heeled shoes. Oh, but tomorrow morning She’ll have to change her trend. And be sweet sixteen. And back in class again.’
Oh and Chuck wrote a plethora of pedo type rock songs. But hey, you’ve got to have somebody to blame, right?
"Run for Your Life" by the Beatles (1965)
’You better run for your life if you can, little girl. Hide your head in the sand, little girl catch you with another man, that’s the end, little girl.’
"Good Morning, Little School Girl" by the Grateful Dead (1967) ’Good morning little schoolgirl, can I come home with you? Tell your mama and your papa I’m a little schoolboy too - Come on now pretty baby I just can’t help myself. You’re so young and pretty I don’t need nobody else.’
"Young Girl" by Gary Puckett & the Union Gap (1968)
’With all the charms of a woman, you’ve kept the secret of your youth. You led me to believe you’re old enough To give me love.And now it hurts to know the truth. Young girl, get out of my mind - my love for you is way out of line.’
"Brown Sugar" by The Rolling Stones - Do I really need to post the lyrics here?
"Christine Sixteen" by Kiss (1977)
’I don’t usually say things like this to girls your age, but when I saw you coming out of the school that day. That day I knew, I knew, I’ve got to have you, I’ve got to have you.’
Oh and let’s not forget about Ted Nugent. A guy who by his own admission said in a 1977 High Times magazine article that he faked symptoms (being unhygienic to appear mentally unfit) and used meth before his military physical to get out of serving. And to this day is a ’highly regarded’ rock & roller in many other ahem, "circles" of high regard.
There’s a video of him and his daughters discussing his interactions with teen girls who were about the age of his girls when he was touring. And in a word Disgusting, indeed.
"Jailbait" by Ted Nugent (1981)
’Well, I don’t care if you’re just thirteen, you look too good to be true. I just know that you’re probably clean, there’s one little thing I got to do to (you) - Jailbait, you look so good to me. Jailbait, won’t you set me free.’
I’ve become (a little) crotchety in my old age too. I’m usually a very easy going and thankfulness kinda guy but when I see someone come after (the) younger folks in and of my community, well let me remind others of their community and what lyrics have also been written and listened too. And these songs were played on AM and FM radio stations as if nothing was wrong. Receipts - SiriusXM my a**.
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I here you Big Brother @mahgister, but this may surprise you. Today, Rap and (modern) R&B music is played not only on AM, FM internet (stations) streamers but also in different languages, all over the world. Rap and the so called (modern) R&B ain't going away. I come to audiogon with an open palette and try very hard not to be negative or combative in anyway. But sometimes...You gotta...Just, stand up...As Bob Marley would say.
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@immatthewj
'While some interpretations of the song would like to see it primarily as a celebration of a drug counterculture, any pretence the phrase “Brown Sugar” is other than a reference to a black woman falls away in the final lyric of the studio album.'
Just like a black girl should.
'This combination of sexual imagery and illicit drug references in the song’s lyrics contributes to the culturally transgressive place the Rolling Stones occupy in popular music history.'
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There is great music in rap or R&B but this genre are (is) very difficult to do with(out) musical mastery...
@mahgister, you are making my point for me. James Brown, himself used rap in his music, and in fact he was called ’Brother Rap’ in my community.
Issac Hayes, used rap in his music, and also in fact he was called ’Ike The Rapper’ in, my community.
The Jazz artist Gil Scott heron introduced to the world to the rap group The Last Poets who appeared on Gil Scott-Heron’s 1972 album .Black Spirits - Festival Of New Black Poets In America and in that album The Last Poets recorded "And See Her Image In The River" and "Song of Ditla, part II" live at the Apollo Theatre in Harlem, New York for the album.
Rap music, just like some parts of Jazz, comes from a community in the early ’50’s or even earlier maybe, as the correct date is not known. But it came about because young people wanted a place to just ’Hangout’ as it were. All you had to have was a nickel (5¢) to get a cup of coffee and some cigarettes to sit in little ’Hip’ cafe and socialize. That’s it. Folks would recite poetry with or without a band. As they (we) still do to this day.
@mahgister I’m trying not to be rude. This rap stuff is a long part of my history, culture and community and I think I may know more about it than you do.
And it gets a little frustrating, at times when someone who’s not of my culture, speaks as if they know more about Rap than I do, and doesn’t even listen to the music genre, and writes and speaks about Rap, as if they do!
No offense here, I’m just trying to exchange knowledge of a music idiom that I have a familiarity with, in a positive way of course, that’s all.
The reason why rap music can be so raunchy at times is because it has always been apart of the ’culture’. For gosh sakes! Has anyone ever listened to Ma Rainey or Bessie Smith! And they had a backing band too!
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Now of course there was ’gangster rap’ that emerged in the 70’s but from that came the ’Neo Soul’ movement which was a subset of (gangster) rap which got it’s start in the mid 80’s. In this particular genre those young kids brought back the cafe style of rap as a softer form of rap where poetry, books, coffee and wine was shared amongst like minded folks.
They even had a snap your finger technique they would do after each person’s rap of poetry. And yes, sometimes it was with backing bands and sometime it was not.
You never hear about that subset of rap because it didn’t make the evening news. Nevertheless, it was massively important to the community because it brought us these young musicians and for a short time there was a New York city based form of rap called ’New Jack Swing’. And out of the out of the ’New Jack Swing’ era we got a type of music that these new artist called ’Neo Soul’. And this movement gave us artist such as:
Erykah Badu
D’Angelo
Lauryn Hill
Floetry
Jill Scott
The Fugees
And many, many others. Was this Rap persay? Yes, because they not only rapped but sang too. It was all connected and this was the first time musicians played live and studio sessions with instruments over recorded music ’samples’ or what some call ’beats’ today.
Rap has evolved just like any thing else, and it’s a shame that only the bad things are remembered, by some. And I will admit that some of this so called rap music that some put out is straight garbage. But I will not let an entire genre of music music be categorized, judged and generalized by some of that garbage.
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P.S. I like a lot of Country music too. Just the other day I listened to some George Jones...
Speaking of Jones, I'm of the mind of Quincy Jones who said a record (or album). 'It's like a photo or snapshot in time.'
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@immatthewj, I had older sisters too! I remember my father getting my ’big baby sister’ a small 45 rpm record player for her birthday I think, and believe or not, my Dad got a policeman he knew to cord off with wooden horses right in front of the house in the middle of the street so she could have a ’sock hop’ for her as that’s what she wanted! Amazing, you got that memory out of me! I couldn’t’ have been more than 5 years old. That 45 rpm record player was the one first in the neighborhood that any young person had got and he made a way for her to have a blast of a time! Wow! I think those positive thoughts made my blood pressure go down some! And yes it was that same sister that got me Yeah, yeah she loves you too a host of other Beatle records as the years went by.
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No problem Matt, the only reason I looked it up is cause I’m getting older and I thought my mind might have been playing tricks on me! Cause I sure did remember hearing
Just like a black girl should.
right at the end of the recording, not only when I was a kid but later in life when I was still doing a lot rockin out! 
@mahgister, of course we’re good big brother! I looked up Beato and it seems he’s had a recording studio in Stone Mountain, Georgia since 1995? Funny thing is, I’ve been in the Metropolitan area of Atlanta, Georgia since 1979 and I’ve never even heard of the guy?
And I’ve seen just about every major recording artist in and from the Atlanta, Georgia area and among a host of other shows of touring artists and been to every music venue in the area also.
Heck, I’ve even been a ’Roadie’ in my very young life just to get into concerts for free! And I still listen to rock & roll, public college, r&b, funk, and a little rap radio stations.
 The only place I’ve seen or heard of this guy is from a youtube algorithm. Expert in music? I don’t know?
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@devinplombier
That you mention Billie Eilish, I think she is in a category all her own, to me...The only other person I can think of that even comes close to her writing skills at such a young age is her brother...
And her singing, I don’t think she knows how good she is, yet...Her phrasing is crazy...
I like what Sza does too. She kinda reminds mey of a thinking woman’s Josephine Baker...If one can imagine that.
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Ahhh...! ’Time in a bottle’ I told you I’m getting older!
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@stuartk
Please link me to some Rap in which melody is as prominent as the rhythmic delivery of the lyrics.
This is off the album ’The 18TH Letter’ from the Rap Artist - RAKIM with the rap/song ’Guess Who’s Back’ 1997 The beats/sample music is from the album ’Hands Down’ from the artist Bob James from the song ’Shaboozie’ This is an analog audio only version. Guess Who’s Back
This is a video off the album ’The 18TH Letter’ from the Rap Artist - RAKIM with the rap/song ’Guess Who’s Back’ 1997 The beats/sample music is from the album ’Hands Down’ from the artist Bob James from the song ’Shaboozie’ This is a live version recorded at The Blue Note in NYC 02/09/23 Rakim - Guess Who’s Back with Talib Kweli, Black Thought & Bob James at The Blue Note NYC 2-9-23
I wanted to show the live version so you can see these young men paying homage to one of the most melodic composers I’ve had the pleasure of listening to over these years and also them paying homage to back in the days when poetry was recited in the New York clubs over a cup of coffee with yes, sometimes a band.
This is a video off the album ’DAMN’ from the Rap Artist - Kendrick Lamar with the rap/song ’LOVE’ featuring Zacari 2017 The beats/sample music were made in the studio by in house studio producers. This is Kendrick Lamar’s attempt at making a love song. A very melodic love song if you will. This video is of its time and is very visually descriptive and forward but offers no disrespect to women. Kendrick Lamar - LOVE featuring Zacari
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@immatthewj
Anyone with ears knows Joni, Paul, and Gordon have no equal.
Be sure to keep your dial glued to the oldies stations so that you will never have anything to compare with.
I'm sorry to laugh, but that was funny!
Actually, @tyray , at the time your post made me think of those lyrics (". . . memories can be friends . . .") I could not remember the name of the song. I did a google prior to that post, and the song title was Recently, and I just did another google, and that was released on the I Got A Name album. Which, as an aside, may have been the first cassette tape I ever bought, when I was a teenager, for my "stereo, which was a little portable cassette player. However, I also thought that Photographs And Memories was a pretty good song.
Yep, once I went back and googled Recently and Photographs And Memories it all made sense. Thank you
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Yeah, your right about the plain Amish bread. I grew up around the Indiana/Ohio state Amish community. Good stuff and good people. You see, you get what you put out...And I don’t agree that being enthusiastic equates to being pathetic. Pathetic is a harsh word and carries a very negative vibration with it. And with all due respect, who is he to judge.
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@devinplombier
That beato character appears to be a bit controversial. Perhaps some folks reacted to him rather than to the questions you posed, which are very good questions indeed.
Maybe, you’re on to something? But I will tell you this, if you lead with a negative (negativity).
«Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad» Rick Beato
Don’t be surprised when you get a negative (negativity) thrown right back at you. It doesn’t matter who you are. It could me, Rick Beato or even our good friend @mahgister.
Karma, the Universe or whatever you want to call it/her, has a way of bounding back at you. It’s a simple universal truth. It has nothing to do with culture, education, taste, lyrics, music or even the internet. It just is... A simple universal truth. Period, full stop. There's no need to philosophize.
Now again, maybe/if when we/you lead with (positivity) something positive like this.
Rick Beato - The Album That Changed My Life
We all can/could have more (positivity) positive responses to the subject at hand and to each other.
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@stuartk,
Thanks for asking me the question, giving them a shot and looking! Have a good weekend!
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We’re Only In It for the Money
And boy was Frank Zappa ahead of his time. And just in case anyone is confused about my statement here? I love me some Frank Zappa
Frank Zappa - Don't Eat The Yellow Snow
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@stuartk, +1 for the post and the rip!
How à propos! And everyone please excuse my very, very bad French, this Saturday... You can tell that young’un listened to a whole lot of Joni...
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Based on my experience with young people who bother to listen to music at all, young boys and men these days generally listen to rap/hiphop stuff and they’re primarily interested in whether the songs have a good beat or a thumping bass.
Admittedly these are generalizations, but I don’t think the generalization is unfair. Many in this thread have noted how there are a lot of great songs being written by Americana artists. How many young people today are listening to that stuff, much less blues or jazz?
About that thumping bass thing, I’ve been a bass head from the time I heard Larry Graham of Sly and The family Stone and the acoustic intonations of Ray Brown on an upright bass. I don’t think the above statements are necessarily true about kids, or should I say young women and young men theses days.
For example this first link is from MonoNeon with Ghost-Note "Live at the Jamm Jam in Los Angeles" and if you notice, it’s packed with general admission standing room only young folks. Or what we would call back in the day a "jam Session". Kinda similar to what their grandparents did many years ago when going to a concert.
In fact I think young people all over the world listen to jazz and blues. This is Ghost Note featuring MonoNeon in Germany, tearing up the stage. Ghost-Note - Featuring MonoNeon live at the Jazz Club Unterfahrt in germany
And the idea that these same young folks don’t listen to blues is totally false as well. NAMM 2016: Eric Gales & Mono Neon Live At The Dunlop Booth
As you see here in this post, young folks not only listen to jazz and blues, but more importantly they play live jazz and blues quite well, if I don’t say so myself. Here’s one for the road. Check out MonoNeon on acoustic bass. MonoNeon with Ghost-Note: "Phat Bacc" | Sugarshack Sessions
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@ezwind,
If I wanted to take the time, I’m quite sure I could find videos from dozens of jazz and blues clubs and concerts all over the country and you’ll see very few young people in the crowd.
It sound like to me you’re just guessing? And you have no clue? I wondering where you live and what live venues you go to see Jazz? Jazz (and blues) is the one music that is our own. It is played all over the US and the world. I don’t care what city you are in, whether it be suburbia or metropolitan areas, there are Jazz clubs all over the US.
And when and artist gets a big following they may be fortunate to get a tour that takes them to small venues, to big venues and everything in between. Meaning when a band tours there is no rhyme or reason where they might or might not play, it’s where the band’s next gig is.
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One of my favorite music genre is Yoruba talking drums and Indian tabla, i love rythms but it will never go around the earth as jazz did ...
I beg to differ. I’ve actually seen a Yoruba ceremony in Salvador Da Bahia, Brazil chanted/sung in Yoruba. Not only has Yoruba made its way to Brasil but even as far away as the US. In Brazil the Yoruba religion is called Candomblé, in their native Portuguese.
And even in the US the practice of Voodoo or ’Vodou/Voudoun’ was practiced by Haitian immigrants in New Orleans, LA. Not to be confused with the silly ’TV’ Voodoo stuff.
The music played in Brazilian Yoruba ceremonies is the basis for what we know of today as ’Samba’. IMHO of course.
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@stuartk ,
Yeah, and other reasons the ATL area colleges and promoters support (jazz) musicians a lot. Kinda similar to when back in our day when a lot of music groups went to (toured) college campuses cause the had the already built facilities to hold such venues for students with a somewhat disposable income, and reasons to party! And the Culture of Jazz too, of course!
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As a side note, in the youtube link I posted above, Lalah Hathaway is singing three, yes I wrote, three notes at one time. Notice at almost the end of the video the drummer looks like he’s about to fall off his drum stool. She gets her singing chops naturally from her father, the Great Donny Hathaway. Lalah Hathaway Stuns Robert Glasper By Singing Three Notes At Once Even if this in not your cuppa tea, you should check this out. Simply Fantastic y’all.
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@goodlistening64 +1! Hah! You don’t say!
I like the idea of providing proof (works cited) to back up an opinion with facts as you have done. It’s what you learn in college when you take breaks from binge drinking.
To be fair, however, much of the information you shared is some 14-17 years old. Meaning that 14-17 year old music fans are completely left out of your hypothesis.
Audience: The number of Americans who like jazz has increased, with one-third of adults reporting they like it, and 5% saying it’s their favorite genre.
New audiences: Jazz is becoming more popular with younger people, including Gen Z. Some say that jazz is connected to rebellion and is easily adapted into other genres.
New artists: New artists are breaking into the scene, and mainstream artists are featuring jazz on their albums. For example, Kamasi Washington worked with Kendrick Lamar on an album.
Media presence: Jazz is being featured in mainstream media, including the Pixar movie Soul.
Club scenes and festivals: Jazz is being celebrated in vibrant club scenes and major festivals.
Streaming: Jazz streaming is growing, and eGift cards allow people to give jazz streaming platforms as gifts.
Education: Jazz education is growing in Asia, including China.
Cultural diplomacy: In South Africa, the government uses jazz as a tool of cultural diplomacy.
As a side note, I live in Metropolitan Atlanta, Georgia where there is a plethora of Jazz in the city’s metro areas. And the number one and biggest festival in Atlanta, GA by far is The (free) Jazz Festival held at Piedmont Park every year, and it goes on for days...So I probably have some positive biases in this subject of Jazz. Or is it Jass?
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Now you've piqued my interest on what would be the top 10 lyrics that defined 2024 'faroutmagazine.co.us'?
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