I've had my B&W N803 for a while now. Love them. But have a craving for a different type of sound.
I want speakers that play all kinds of music equally well. Excell at soundstaging, imaging, resolution, are NOT analytical, sound natural(this is very improtant...I hate artificial sound), and do the bass so you not only hear it but feel it as well.
I started building a list of potential candidates. Here goes it: 1. B&W 803D 2. DALI Helicon 800MkII 3. DALI Euphonia MS4 or 5 4. Dynuadio S5.4 5. Sonus Faber Cremona
from the list I am familiar with S5.4, 803D and Cremona. I have never heard DALI speakers.
Room width is about 14 feet. Length is 18 feet. Speakers are on the short wall. Behind the speakers corners are treated with 8th Nerve Rectangles and Triangles, there is an area rug in front of speakers.
I listen to rock music, jazz(vocal and instrumental but dynamic stuff...no smooth jazz at all), acoustic music, solo, chamber and large orchestral classical(Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Bartok, Shoenberg, Shostakovich, etc). I would like the orchestra to be rendered as large and real as possible within the natural limitations of my room, system, listener.
I like to listen on realistic levels when I can, but since I have a 5 year old who goes to bed early, low level resolution is VERY IMPORTANT. I do a lot of late night listening at low levels and want to hear as much information out of the speakers as possible. My B&Ws excell at playing loud without strain. I want this quality to remain with the new speaker as well.
The speaker upgrade will most likely force me to use my Bel Canto DAC3 as a preamp for a while.
I am selling my BAT VK-51SE preamp right now to raise some funds for the speakers. Once I sell the preamp I plan to sell the B&Ws.
DAC3 isn't that bad direct into my Pass Labs X250.5 and I have a feeling I can deal with it for the time being. No plans to change the amplifier, or anything else. Just the speakers.
I upgraded out of a pair of B&W N803s (which I enjoyed very much) to Wilson Audio CUB2 and then Sophia Speakers. The Wilson Speakers were vastly better than the B&Ws in every way, in my Room with my Electronics, there was no comparison. I kept the same Amplifier with the highly-efficient CUB2s, but eventually upgraded into a PASS X250.5 + X1 with the Sophias and the sound exceeded all of my expectations.
A used pair of Sophia1s could be had at a reasonable cost, and will push your system to the next level. The PASS Amp. worked-out best for me, in comparison to BAT, Krell, McIntosh & others that I tried. The X250.5 that you own, is "the best" sounding SS Amp. that I have yet to hear on Sophias.
How about another speaker. I just forgot to add it in the original list - Opera Callas Divina. Anyone familiar with it? it received a very good review in Stereophile few years ago. I never heard these speakers. if anyone has, please share your thoughts on their sound qualities.
do they belong in a group with B&Ws and Dynaudio - dynamic and powerfull, or are they more like Sonus Faber Cremona, laid back and forgiving?
Johnny, my problem with Thiels is this, 3.6's have been my speaker now for about 9 years and I don't know what I would ever go to. When fed right which I've done the resolution and coherence is addicting. Your right though you have to work a little and be ultra careful with upstream components and wire. I used a Blackbird cartridge for a while which leans towards the sharp side, however, my ortofon jubilee is perfect and when everything connects that is when Thiels are really hard to beat for me.
09-01-08: Audphile1 I recently heard Thiels, the new models...3.7 may beIwith a round top)? But didn't like them too much. Thought they were a bit analytical for my tastes. No warmth at all.
That's the dilemma with Thiels--they tend to be cold and analytical, but they present a challenging load to amplifiers (wild swings in an impedance curve that drops down to 2 ohms), so they don't mate well with tube amps. The one solution seems to be using a tube preamp to soften things up a bit before feeding to a high current SS amp.
As for me, life's too short to try to live with Thiels if you want to enjoy your music disc after disc (or record after record).
Okay, I guess I'll chime in here, as we've spoken over email about this, but maybe this will be helpful for others. I own the MS4's and am happy with them. They can be though, as Tvad said, analytical. I find them extremely sensitive to changes up the line (especially with cables) and am going to spend some time trying to find a nice synergy in my system before I entertain switching to something else. They're not necessarily forgiving speakers, and are going to reveal weaknesses in bad recordings, but they do wonderful things with sound-staging, micro-dynamics and vocals. Low-level listening is very pleasant, although I tend to listen at higher volumes. I think given your amplification, most of the speakers you're entertaining will sound good at low levels, because of the Pass's Class A bias.
Now are they the perfect speaker for you, I don't know. I think you should listen to them, but I think that something else to hear is the Verity Parsifal Encore. I really love what these modestly-sized speakers do, especially at low level. They are nothing close to analytical, but are still resolving and articulate. They're pricier new or used, but I think that's a speaker you could be happy with for a long time. It's also nice that you can position the woofer to fire forward or backward depending on your room's setup. They're also beautiful in the Makore finish, IMO.
I recently heard Thiels, the new models...3.7 may beIwith a round top)? But didn't like them too much. Thought they were a bit analytical for my tastes. No warmth at all. I think it could have been the room they were in, but in any case I don't think this is the sound I am looking for. Thanks.
Hey Audphile, I'm on it, just sounded like you might know. Have you considered Thiel. Sounds like you have a large room and Thiels sound so open and transparent with about 9 to 10 feet between them.
Newbee--offer (as email) much appreciated. Here in central Virginia is an audio wasteland. In that regard I miss Ann Arbor. McIntosh, B&W, Thiel and PS Audio are all that can be auditioned in town. Punto. And if they don't float your boat, 2 1/2 hour drive in three different directions to next towns with audio stores that carry anything interesting. And so it goes. Sounds like the makings of another thread...
I believe they have have dealers on each coast as well as the Chicago and Texas areas. I don't know how much of the line they stock. If you want to trace one down call or e-mail Alan Yun at Silverline. He is very responsive. He will also deal with you direct at an advantageous price if there is no dealer in your area, and of course you could always hear them (by appointment) at his shop. This was not the greatest environment IMHO - he is not very anal about demo's, set up wise. I listened at his shop but wasn't nearly as impressed as when I brought them home and set them up. FWIW, if this is a serious 'listen' for you, you are always welcome to come to my home, but I do live in the boonies in Northern California (so few have asked). :-)
Newbee - no the email and pointers. I read both reviews and some others linked to the Silverline site. Do they have dealers (I could find no link on the website) or do they largely deal direct?
Tvad, Not for you specifically. You are too sophisticated to be influenced by my observations. I just don't want my opinions of equipment that I did not chose, to be the basis for others when making their purchase decisions. Those that are serious about speakers I chose vs did not chose will have to ask and have to settle for e-mail. I'm too wordy to burden down the forum with my specific opinions. :-)
A speaker that comes to my mind given your criteria is the Legacy Audio Whisper. It's physically imposing, but unlike most speakers that size, its free-air woofers function as dipoles, making it easy to place them closer to side walls. The woofers can also be amped and attenuated separately, so it is relatively easy to dial the speakers in to the room size and avoid bass overload.
Finally, the Whispers are aptly named if the multiple reviews are to be believed. The reviews consistently report that they are particularly good at low level detail and holding the musical presentation together at low volumes.
Also, given your criteria for detail plus engaging musicality, the Sonus Faber Cremona is a must-listen. The SF's all have a very natural-sounding tonal balance, the antithesis of hyped-up "hi-fi."
You might just like the Bolero's. They really fits snuggly into the description of the sound your are looking for. I have been extremely pleased with mine. I've had them a year now and have NO reservations whatsoever.
I use them in a 19x13x9 room and listen primarily to classical and jazz music. If you are seriously considering them and want a 'testimonial' e-mail me. BTW, although I'm sure you noticed, unlike other Silverlines, they have all Dynaudio drivers, including the Esotar tweeter, and they are voiced very differently than the other Silverlines.
Mechans, I agree with you. I totally realize that there is a potential for a system that resolves a lot of detail at lower level, to become unpleasant to listen to at higher levels for prolonged periods of time. I am trying to avoid this scenario. This is NOT what I want the system to do. Thanks for your advise.
Truman, let me tell you a little story. I have heard CarderSound and loved it. No , I will not pay someone 10K if I can build it for 3.5K and with upgrated Lowther drivers (not Fostex). That was my plan. To make long story short, my Vandies went up for sell to pay up for my upcoming projects. Unfortunatly my other half saw the plans and almost got a heart attack. I have promised that I won't build those "ugly" boxes. Now, she loves the way Vandys look........it wasn't always the case though. I might end up keeping the Quatros but my point is that CarderSound can break up the marriage .......just a warning.
A system with speakers that are very detailed at low volumes is generally highly regarded. According to a particular renegade audiophile whose opinions are dogma, the best way to evaluate a system is based on low volume detail retrieval. I have had the experience of battling my attraction to very analytical components. The system was highly resolving. In the end it had an almost undefeatable downside, fatigue. This becomes especially problematic when you turn it up. Fortunately Tube power amps with a miraculous little pre came to the rescue. To address your question, the best speakers for times when when I can't play my music at enjoyable volumes are AKG 701 headphones. When used in combination with a superior dedicated headphone amp they are great. I have a Singlepower audio "Extreme" an OTL headphone amp. I used to get up early to read the Gon every morning . My family did not like any genre of music at 5 am. I really think you should consider it instead of going through a complete revision of a system you like otherwise. Headphones are not something everyone, including myself, love but it is a potential solution. This is a thought only because this new breed high end* custom made amps make true high end tubed sound possible. These amps are incredible, if you haven't heard them you should see if you can audition a couple. I can tell you that they are anything but mass produced and virtually always a one of a kind, made to meet your likes and wallet. SinglePower amps start at about $800 and go up to about 3K but others are less. Mapletree audio out of Canada for instance is less $ and you can get it as a preamp to boot. He offers amps which use the plain old 6SN7 which I like, or 12SN7 or XX SL7 or with a switch to let you pick between two tube types... for about $500. Believe me the OTL modern tube amp I got, with just a couple of upgrades to the base model, absolutely crushes than that old headphone plug on your old integrated or 1970's receiver. *(Excluding Stax which have been around a while.)
Treat yourself to: http://cardersound.tech.officelive.com/CarderSound.aspx and move ten spaces forward. Read the Ty-Bone reviews. [Check WAF.] Put your speakers up for sale on Audiogon. Call me in the morning, you'll feel much better. -Especially with low volume levels, efficient speakers probably are the way to go. ( No business association with Cardersound, but Jeff is a great guy who will give you the straight story.) It's a long, strange trip its been - but fun.
# 1 - speakers should not look like coffins(or else I will be packed in one of them and burried by my significant other).
#2 - no electrostatics, no panel speakers.
#3 - I am leaning towards major manufacturers in case the speakers won't work out for me and I need to sell...just don't want to get stuck with something I don't like.
#4 - not as important as 1,2 and 3, but the goal is to get a good sounding speaker of a normal size and appearance. Not the behemoth. The biggest/tallest is the size of Dynaudio S5.4...and if that can be avoided, great!
Samhar, the Wood Quatro (my dad owns them) is not only a cosmetic upgrade but there is improved parts taken from the 5A so they offer I would say close to 10% better performance over the sock Quatro. Sure the biggest expense is cosmetic but it also comes with a bit better musical performance aswell.
I agree!! I think the wood is rated higher but I don't know why! The internal EQ is also a fantastic option to have, the ability to adjust the speakers to the room and your taste is a huge advantage over most other designs!!!!!!!
If you can, take a listen to SP Technology. They do all the things you are looking for extremely well. They would also work well with your existing Pass Labs amplifier. There's lots of information about SP Technology at Audiocircle. I've had quite a few speakers (some very expensive) and settled on SP Technology Continuum 2.5s.
If you want to listen at low volumes and still get dynamics you should check out Nola Viper Reference. Should be a good match with your amp, although I've not heard that combo myself. When you were describing things that are important to you these speakers came to mind. Maybe there is a dealer near you so you could check them out. I don't own them, but I have a friend who does. I used to own Alon IV,s which is the same company but they changed their name. Just something to look at.
The Vandersteen Quatro is offered in a standard finish which is a wood capped speaker with cloth surrounding the entire body of speaker, the wood version is a typical wood speaker but comes at a $3000 premium, but for that you also get a bit better trickle down technology from the Vandersteen flagship model the %A. Call Richard Vandersteen himself for any and all questions as he is a refreshingly straight shooter among a world of slick sales efforts and hyperbowl. The Quatro models are across the board well reviewed and highly recomended by all who review them . There are far better folks to talk to about this speaker line but I will help if I can.
We just had a good discussion of some of these issues on a different thread. I'll say again here that many of us professional orchestral musicians agree that still the best way to get as close as possible to the sound of a full orchestra in a good concert hall is a very old one - very highly efficient horn speakers, driven with tube electronics. Horns are excellent at soundstaging, imaging, and they have incredible dynamic range. They also resolve extremely well all of the very different timbres in the orchestra. Yes, they are very direct - but so is live music. If you want to keep it real, there isn't a better way to go. You can also find really good vintage horn speakers of greatly varying sizes at prices that are comparatively very low - certainly for far less than the Cremonas you mentioned.
I would add Von Schweikert to your short list. I've owned a few pairs over the last four years and I've not been disappointed by any of them.........John
I think I'll stick with more or less major, more common loudspeaker manufacturers. This Audio Kinesis stuff is nice, but since the direct sale only, no place to audition, I'll pass.
HI, Love the CD3 MKll thanks again!!! What about Vandersteen Quatro they seem perfect for your needs, room size and your amp. For jazz and rock they have an enclosed powered sub, which mimics your amps characteristics, can you imagine the speed and snap of the bass,I owned a Pass X150 with 3A Sigs and I can still hear the speed and impact of the bass!! I think they play the music you list very well; fantastic with acoustic instruments, chamber, vocals and they through a big sound stage!! I just heard the Wood Quatro at my local Vandy dealer and they were impressive, a little quicker and more detailed than the 3A Sigs with 2Wq's subs. Mrjstark has a pair for sale in NY, you should give them a listen you'll be surprised.
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