"11-23-14: Swampwalker
Zd- I think we are talking past each other. I was referring to distribution through internet sales instead of B&M, not both modes for the same lines, and thought that you were, too. I see that you were not."
Yes. I should have been more clear. I was referring to companies that really can't do business any other way than a B&M store.
"I would note, however, that in the case where internet sales reach a market where B&M is not available, then they would not compete w each other. So IF that were true, then MD's 60 day policy would not be the death of B&M. I know that's a big IF, but we are talking hypothetical."
I agree with that, as well. The only thing I would add is that when a company distributes both ways, they usually force the internet type company to sell at list price. Otherwise, it will be direct competition. |
Zd- I think we are talking past each other. I was referring to distribution through internet sales instead of B&M, not both modes for the same lines, and thought that you were, too. I see that you were not. I would note, however, that in the case where internet sales reach a market where B&M is not available, then they would not compete w each other. So IF that were true, then MD's 60 day policy would not be the death of B&M. I know that's a big IF, but we are talking hypothetical. |
Well done Ctsooner-
I like having B&M stores. We cannot listen to gear over the net. Furthermore, it is a wonderful thing to establish a relationship w/ an owner of a B&M operation. This cannot be accomplished over the net. Happy Listening! |
If you look at most of the big, well established brands in high end audio, they only sell through B&M stores. And they are very selective about who they let become dealers. I don't see any other way they can do business. |
I was at a dealer yesterday with a bunch of audiophiles (many who do buy online). Most felt that if a boutique manufacturer was able to get their wares into a B&M, that most would do it in a heartbeat as their advertising costs can actually be higher than you think. They must do shows which cost a lot and they have to have their internet presence along with getting their products reviewed etc... There are two business models here that will co exist for the foreseeable future and that benefits all of us in the long run. |
They will keep on trucking forever. |
"11-23-14: Swampwalker
Zd- my point is that I have to assume that the motivation to go to a direct or internet sales model is to be able to lower the price to be able to be more competitive. If you did that and then allowed the internet dealer to set the price at or close to what a more traditional sales model would require, then you'd be shooting yourself in the foot."
That's not the case, though. For the most part, a company that has both type of retailers makes the internet seller charge the same price. They do it to just reach places that have no local dealers. Also, internet sellers are not supposed to sell in zip codes that are reserved for B&M stores. A good example is Music Direct because most people here know them. They sell brands like BAT and Rega. I know they're not supposed to sell them in areas that have local dealers. There may be exceptions, but this is generally how its done. |
Zd- my point is that I have to assume that the motivation to go to a direct or internet sales model is to be able to lower the price to be able to be more competitive. If you did that and then allowed the internet dealer to set the price at or close to what a more traditional sales model would require, then you'd be shooting yourself in the foot. |
"I don't think that there is any question that B&M stores have the potential to add value. If the internet direct price is the same as it was w a B&M dealer, why would a manufacturer go internet direct?"
They would go direct to sell in areas where they don't have dealers. As far as pricing goes, the companyÂ’s that do sell both direct and through dealers, usually only sell at full list price. If they sell for less than list, they would be competing with their B&M dealers. |
Isn't it possible that they are charging the same price that a dealer would sell the same product for in their B&M store, and just keeping the extra profit for themselves? I don't think that there is any question that B&M stores have the potential to add value. If the internet direct price is the same as it was w a B&M dealer, why would a manufacturer go internet direct? There would be no motivation for the manufacturer to continue that arrangement. I would very surprised to find that manufacturers do not deal with an on-line dealer the same way they would w B&M stores, setting minimum selling prices. |
Why does everyone think that if you buy from a company that sells product's directly to consumers, avoiding the middleman/retail store, that you save money? Isn't it possible that they are charging the same price that a dealer would sell the same product for in their B&M store, and just keeping the extra profit for themselves? |
That's fine guys, however high end audio is still and will continue for the near future to be about emotion...The music and not the product of the month. That's the difference that some of you don't understand. I'll put my system up against any other system put together for what I paid for it all. most of the B&M guys are doing it for love still and there will always be some room for that. I've always taught my kids that it's only a good deal if you get something that you love for less....I'm happy for you KNG as well as the rest of you who only deal online. You can point out why YOU like online better than B&M and established brands, but that doesn't make you right or wrong, just like my opinion is just that....That said, I've lived long enough to hear the demise of so many things because of computers, then online etc...and for most things I'm still waiting..... |
Chrshanl37 I was going to email you so as not to hijack this thread but I didn't see anyway to do that. Sorry. It's on Matt's DAC shootout thread that is very very long right now. He lives near Audio Connection and we have a few posts over there about Richard Vandersteen's visit and meeting up.
IRT this thread, I think there are pros on both sides. Just like any business, we will continue to see all B&M stores needing to 'keep up' with what the customer's want. They will do this or they will go out of business. For years now, all I've heard is that online is putting the stores out of business.
I've been around this business since 1970 and have gotten to know many in the industry as I'm a networker type of person. One of my closest friends closed his doors around 2002 or so because he thought home theater was going to put him out of business as his prices were so much higher. The irony is that in speaking with Richard Vandersteen last year when he did his yearly AC visit, he spoke about going to the very high end speakers as THEY were the ones selling the best. For whatever reason there is a huge rift right now in audio....I'll use the $300pr speakers to say 3k a pr (just to give an idea of what he was saying) and 6k-unlimited a pr. There are big markets still for both. We can and will all live in harmony for a while still regardless of a return policy that the OP has said is one thing, but on the MD site it says something totally different.
There have been many points brought up in this thread and so far I don't think we've seen any absolutes, do any of you? I do have one other question that's been talked about a few times in this thread and that's how anyone can audition anything in a show environment. When I'm spending over 20k on something I just can't justify buying anything that I haven't heard properly vs at least a couple of other products. I'm lucky as I'm in CT and there are still at least 4 or 5 stores in my state alone and then I have Boston, NH, NYC, NJ and even DE ..... I'm lucky as I recently upgrades my whole system. That is the biggest reason I've heard soooooo many products that are out there and that includes the very small companies products that are sold via 'home stores'.....Some I've liked, however there are some well known 'direct' type of companies who sell via mail order, but have a few 'home stores' that carry their products and none of them impressed me. I've heard a few others that impressed me greatly, but I was still concerned about the future and getting parts etc. if something went wrong. I'm older and older school than many of you who will only buy used on the net or via the direct route. I fully understand both sides and my personal opinion is that there is still room for both sides and will be for a fairly long time. JMHO |
I certainly wasn't suggesting I am happy to see the end of B and M stores, just that their day may be over. I think we will all lose without them. There simply aren't enough Audiophiles around to make them viable and those who are left have adopted a new model for making purchases. Many of us are looking for buy direct or second hand bargains and won't pay the premium for personal service in a store.
Store owners need to wake up and smell the Roses, and do that soon. Giving up the Main St store and working from home or a cheaper lock up small industrial unit, open by appointment. There are many ways to develop interest, small shows run by a single store in a local hotel, having open evenings with wine and canapes demonstrating how good music and film can be with the right kit. Business's in the UK are doing that now and I am sure they are in the US. You can't just sit there in an empty store waiting for the odd customer to come in. They also have to be welcoming. All of us have experienced the assessment as you walk in a store, mentally weighing your wallet, before they even deign to acknowledge your presence. If you are welcoming, maybe you won't make a sale the first time, but the 3rd or 4th time they come back |
11-20-14: Ctsooner
On topic, I don't understand why some of you come across as hoping that B&M stores go away.
Why can't there be all options? In the end, that's the best thing for everyone. 11-20-14: Dill
Look at it this way, if all the B&M stores evaporate, you would be left only with two options to audition & buy new audio gear.
1) Buy the item from an online dealer and have it shipped to you.
2) Listen & buy the item from an audio show.
Both 1 & 2 will cost you money if you want to return it.
Only option 2 allows you to listen to it before you buy.
Most B&M stores in this country will let you listen for free, some will let you take the item home for audition for free.
Now, if you do not want the item option 1 & 2 will cost you money, while your local B&M store might not.
Bottom line, without B&M stores it will cost you to audition gear in your home system. I don't wish for B&M demise but their business model cannot compete with more efficient models. It's a new economy and just taking advantage of all the positives. There are reasons malls are food courts, haven't use ATM to withdraw $$ for 10+ years, all bills are paid online ... World keeps on evolving and I'm trying to evolve and adapt to it. I'm not the commander and chief and with a stroke of a pen, sign an executive order to save B&M. With the internet and technology, there are more efficient ways to sell products. Commander and chief is working on an internet sales tax. When gov picks the winners and losers, we ALL lose. I digress ... With technology, home based businesses are popping up in my area. They drop components off my house to demo or demo in their homes. With lower overhead, I get a better deal so both parties win. One owner grossed $1,000,000+ last year working part time while keeping his full time job. |
Ct could you give me the link of the thread you mention? |
I actually meant to say Bess is one of the best analog guys in the country. I used to deal with the best analog guy in the country but he passed away 3 years ago. The one and only Mr. Brooks Berdan. |
Taters and Yogi, thanks for calling me out on that post. I have MS and deal with cognitive issues at times. I thought I was posting on another thread where many of us were discussing meeting up on Saturday.
On topic, I don't understand why some of you come across as hoping that B&M stores go away. Why can't there be all options? In the end, that's the best thing for everyone. It gives those of us the ability to go listen before we purchase and it keeps many of us who can afford nice components a place to purchase them. That still leaves plenty of room for the rest of you who want to play hit or miss purchasing online. I realize times change, but I've lived through the demise of vinyl, which has never gone away for many of us. There have been some bold statements made in this thread as if it's an absolute that B&M are going away. It makes no sense and neither does it make sense that the MD guy is the best analog guy in the country. I think when you make statements like that, it takes away from some of your other points that are interesting (at least for me). Like I posted earlier (I think it was in this thread), I like MD and have dealt with them since they started, so it's not like I don't like the guy or his business. Just think that your original post is wrong and that just because he offers a return policy that REQUIRES an explanation (it's written on their site so it's irrelevant what they tell you on the phone unless you can prove it in court, which would never happen), plus you are also out the shipping costs. I just can't see how this type of policy would ever do anything to hurt a store.
In addition, based on the brand they carry, I haven't found anything that I'd have in my system other than some digital stuff as I went cheap until things work themselves out. When you deal with higher end audio, many folks want the whole experience of sitting and listening to their own music and hearing how things work together as a system. Even my kids like audio stores and the oldest is 18.
Again, I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. |
Knghifi said: "Well said David12 except I don't feel much lose with B&M demised. Positives definitely outweighs the negatives to ME."
Look at it this way, if all the B&M stores evaporate, you would be left only with two options to audition & buy new audio gear.
1) Buy the item from an online dealer and have it shipped to you.
2) Listen & buy the item from an audio show.
Both 1 & 2 will cost you money if you want to return it.
Only option 2 allows you to listen to it before you buy.
Most B&M stores in this country will let you listen for free, some will let you take the item home for audition for free.
Now, if you do not want the item option 1 & 2 will cost you money, while your local B&M store might not.
Bottom line, without B&M stores it will cost you to audition gear in your home system.
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Well said David12 except I don't feel much lose with B&M demised. Positives definitely outweighs the negatives to ME. |
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Business models are constantly changing with the times, entrepeneurs change with it or become extinct. A good example, I live in the UK, where there is a big shift from out of town superstore groceries, to buying online and small shopping trips on the high street. Tesco, the UK Walmart, much beloved by Warren Buffett, the Sage of Omaha, is in freefall and even under investigation for possible fraud, trying to hide declining sales.
The HiFi market has changed irrevocably, live with it.
1) We are no longer a mass market, as in the 80's but a niche market, which can not easily support a B and M store.
2) The customers left are by and large pretty canny. They won't pay retail, but buy second hand, look for a good deal, a discount.
3) HiFi is not an impulse buy, if it ever was. Nowone walks past a store and says "that reminds me, I need a new $20000 amplifier", so why have an expensive store, to attract the passing trade. We all research a purchase, go to shows, read reviews, chat on line and then look for a cheap option.
4) I am not the first to say, the explosion in shows, large and small, has partly removed the need for stores, though shows are'nt the best environment to audition new kit. I look at it this way, if a system sounds good to you in a show, it must be very good indeed.
5) the rise of small manufacturers selling direct, reduces the cost and puts you in touch with the man who should know about the product. I am looking at a Music First Audio Baby reference pre. I phoned the manufacturer who said, when do you want me to come to you and bring one to audition in your system. That is easier in the UK, with smaller distances to travel.
All that being said, there is a role for B and M stores, or rather the new model that has arisen in the UK. The knowledgeable dealer working alone, from home, not a store, to reduce costs. There are many of those in the UK and I have had great service from a number of them. They rend to deliver and set up, advise on tweaks etc. In fact, give some value to the extra cost entailed in using a B and M store.
There are real advantages as well as losses to us customers, in cutting out the dealer. A small manufacturer in the US, who is a friend, but I won't name, talked to me about cost breakdowns in the High end. He said an $80000 speaker, sold through distributors and retailers, would have a material, labour and factory fixed costs, of $20000 at most. A lot of that excess costs is in dealer and distributor margins, but a massive amount in advertising and marketing. The small guy has none of these costs, relying on word of mouth.
So we all lose in the demise of the Band M stores, but there are real gains too, particularly in price. |
Taters,I was wondering about the same thing. What does that have to do with your MD post? |
Dill, very well stated. Even mail order retailers can't and won't give carte blanche full refunds, and even when a full refund is given, the shipping and handling fee is deducted, plus you have to take care of return shipping, which many consider a hassle.
There is a lot to be said for auditioning a product before purchase, especially in one's system. |
Ct sooner, what does this have to do with Music Direct? |
Anyone going to see Richard Vandersteen on Saturday at Audio Connection? I'll be there from start to finish as I am looking at a few upgrades and it's a long drive so it's fun to hang out. let me know if you are going so we can meet. |
Dill, if they are so negative on returns like you Insist. Why would they offer a 60 day return privilege? It doesn't make any sense. |
Yogiboy, that is a good question. I'll send them an email and see what they say. |
Taters (sudz) says:
“I just confirmed with Bess at Music direct that it is indeed a 60 day return privilege and not a 60 day warranty like some of you had said. You have 60 days to review a product and at the end of 60 days if you are not happy with it you can send it back for a full refund”
Not true and lots of hurdles to jump over.
-From the MD website:
Music Direct offers a 60-day money back guarantee on most equipment/accessories (excluding fluids, pastes, aerosols and special order items, none of which are returnable)
- "Most" being a key word.
We'll require an explanation for the return (defective, damaged, etc). Don't be surprised if we ask you some pretty detailed questions about the reason for your return.
Returns will not be accepted without a Return Authorization #, or RMA# which must be obtained by phone or email. An RA must be obtained within 60 days of the purchase, and Music Direct must receive the package within 15 days of issuing the RA. Note that after 60 days all sales are final.
If your return package is deemed acceptable after inspection, Music Direct will refund the purchase price of the returned item. Shipping costs will NOT be refunded.
- "Deemed" another key word.
Please note that if defective merchandise proves to be non-defective upon inspection, or if Music Direct otherwise determines the customer is exercising chronic abuse of the return policy, the customer will be charged a re-stocking fee at Music Direct's discretion. Music Direct also reserves the right to impose a re-stocking fee at our discretion for any returned item that is damaged, cosmetically dinged or returned missing accessories. Also please note, if you received Free Shipping with your initial order and you returned the non-defective item, we will deduct the initial shipping fee from your refund. Any and all packages that are refused delivery and sent back to music direct without an RMA number will not be refunded the initial shipping charge and a restocking fee will be added to the return.
- A simple saying: " I don't like the way it images in my system and I want to return it", I bet just won't cut it. It's going to cost you, especially heavy items. You will not get a FULL refund, maybe only the purchase price minus expenses. |
So when you buy from MD you might be getting something that
has been used for 2 months so do they resell it as used? I am
not comfortable with that policy! |
Whart, I agree with you regarding SE. I've been dealing with Dave and Alan there for the past few years. They're still the most old school store I know of around here. I have a store literally around the corner from where I live which used to be a good store - it still is if HT is your bag. Problem there is they stock ZERO. I've auditioned equipment there and after once having waited 6 weeks for a REL sub I gave up. After that, it's been SE for me - and they're 55 miles away. |
Bess at MD really knows his analog. I call him every now and then. Nick at Audio Connection really really knows his analog. I buy from Audio Connection if I am looking for something carried by both places, like my latest Dynavector cartridge. For those items not carried by Audio Connection and other local dealers that I like, Bess at Music Direct is it. |
Zs542. Regarding Music Direct -- they indeed may have changed. You mentioned that you haven't dealt with them for a few years. I've only dealt with them for a few years -- and have never sensed that I was dealing with a high pressure salesperson. That would have turned me off.
OTOH. Based upon the folks that I've dealt with, I can't give an opinion regarding their product/industry knowledge. |
They may not put Audio Connection out of business because he is one of the most knowledgable dealers in the country. Most dealers are not Audio Connection. Most dealers are marginal as it is. Something like Music Direct offering a 60 day trial period could really hurt those marginal dealers. At this point all Music Direct has to do is convince some of the big hitters out there to come aboard and you will see dealers dropping like flies. Don't think it can happen, we'll just look at some of the lines Music Direct carries now. It would of been unheard of 10 years ago. Places like Music Direct are doing big numbers out there and some of these big boys who have recently been acquired by conglomerates are all about the bottom line. Not to get off subject but even a well known company like Ferrari is going to start producing more cars. People said it would never happen. Things are changing in the market place fast and one day you will see companies like Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds carrying a lot more high end brands. These companies have more exposure to the market via their website and mail order catalogues than small specialty retailers. |
Business has and continues to change. Going direct is indeed good
business and one can indeed save big sums of money. Often times the
gear is also much better. Small boutique companies making extraordinary
gear out of passion and innovation. We are all buying online more and
more for most things.
High end companies are increasing prices very sharply as the demand and
volume continue to decline for their products. These expanded prices and
margins are further exaggerated with high dealer mark-ups. This ever
expanding pricing cycle of high end gear is simply out of control for many of
the big brand, dealer pushed products.
Yes, exceptions exist, but goodness the prices asked for amps with so so
parts quality is astounding to me. $20,000 speakers with 50 cent resistors
and $10 caps. Tube amplifiers with puny power supplies, cheap parts and
so so trannys for $10,000 - $20,000.
As a long time Aphile I am getting more and more disturbed by the
unreasonable pricing so evident in our hobby. |
I can promise you that Nick at Audio Connections knows as much about set up and sound than all the other old timers. How can say that Bess knows more than anyone else in the country? How do you know since you don't got to B&M stores? I have been to many great stores recently. These guys all know a ton about analog. Does Bess know how his turntables, arms and cartridges sound with preamps they don't sell? How about how well they mate with my Ayre integrated amp and Vandersteen Treo's with top AQ cables? I bet he has no clue unless he recently went to a B&M to listen to Ayre and Vandy's, which I doubt. I get that you love Music Direct and I use them for vinyl purchases. I have nothing against any good dealer and I consider them a very good dealer, but aren't putting anyone out of business. Those of us who shop B&M don't want to deal with mailing stuff back etc.... |
The guys that work at Audio Advisor remind of guys that work at Best Buy. They are basically retail clerks with no knowledge. |
"11-16-14: Taters
Zd 542, I totally disagree with you. They have a guy that works there named Bess. He probably knows more about analog than any other dealer in the country. I would bet music direct sells more turntables than the top 5 audio dealers in the country. Besides Bess they do have some other knowledgable phone reps. If you want to deal with reps that have no knowledge call Audio Advisor."
With something like this, I've got no problem with being proven wrong. I haven't dealt with them in a few years, so maybe they fixed a few problems. Although, I don't know if I would agree that they know more than any other dealer in the country. I can name a few others that may be just as good. I also agree on Audio Advisor. They set the bar pretty low. Its hard to believe, but they used to be really good. It was a long time ago, but they used to have a great reputation. |
I just confirmed with Bess at Music direct that it is indeed a 60 day return privilege and not a 60 day warranty like some of you had said. You have 60 days to review a product and at the end of 60 days if you are not happy with it you can send it back for a full refund. If you send it back you will have to pay for shipping and insurance. The only items excluded are fluids, cartridges and special order Items. He said it is the best return privilege in the audio business. |
Schubert- true, and since my niece, a millennial, seems perfectly content to watch a film or listen to music on her computer with a small ancillary sound system, this stuff has functionally replaced hi-fi and even 'home theatre' gear, rather than just being a diversion to something else. |
Home Theater and Computers, SmartPhones, ate up the income that used to buy audio.
For 90% of the buyers it was never the music, just what was kool at the time. |
Oblgny- I don't know if you remember what made the Stereo Exchange special in the early days- it was a bazaar of used high end- you could walk in and find the last flavor of the month at a decent price compared to retail or the usual discount. I bought tons of stuff from Dave in the old days- after the used market shifted to A-gon, the store lost that mojo. And, SE shifted to home theatre, as a lot of dealers did. I have fond memories of the place and used to enjoy some of the staff, who have moved on in different directions. I still speak to Dave occasionally- he is a good guy. |
I'm with Ctsooner -- good point!
Guess now what will happen with prices and with mark-up... |
Some of you guys don't understand how business works. Sorry, that's the reality here. We've heard the stories about returns...I too have had a problem similar in the past. I just won't buy that way. You don't save money in the long run either. Shows aren't great places to hear products that you want. The rooms stink and you can't hear your own music for hours...YOu hear only what they have in the room. Good luck with your mail order.....There are and will be top stores....the top ones will stay in business and the lousy ones will leave..just like a real market... |
"11-16-14: Bifwynne
So how is it that companies like Audio Research, Wilson, Magico and the hundreds of other high-end manufacturers are able to push their product. Who are the first buyers of this class of gear? What are the supply and distribution chains?
I agree that B&M stores are falling by the weigh-side (sp?), so how are these companies getting their product to market ... and ultimately into the hands of retail customers."
They control their dealer network. If a dealer wants to sell the brands you list, they sign a contract that lays out everything they can and can't do. Most, if not all, of the companies similar to the ones you list, will not let anything other than a B&M store sell their product. |
Bifwynne...Audio Shows open to the public is having a huge impact on the market. Yes, there is a lot of equipment sold at the shows, but more than that it allows audiophiles to hear/experience many different options and go home and order the equipment or find it on a site like AudioGon. The Audio Shows, like the one I recently attended in Denver, brought in people from all over the country. I believe there will always be a place for high-end audio shops, but there may be fewer of them as time goes by. There are lots of Home Theater installation companies doing well without store fronts. High-end two channel only stores are almost a thing of the past. The high-end world is changing and not necessarily for the worst in my opinion. |
Bifwynne, high-end USA audio manufacturers, like the companies you listed, have USA based dealer networks with locations typically in major metropolitan areas. Many of them also do a thriving overseas business. |
Music direct gives you a 30 day trial to try out the equipment and see if you are happy with it. Now they are offering you 60 days. I don't believe this has anything to do about warranty. I will call music direct tomorrow and ask them why they are now offering 60 day return policy. Then I will report back my findings. |
Zd 542, I totally disagree with you. They have a guy that works there named Bess. He probably knows more about analog than any other dealer in the country. I would bet music direct sells more turntables than the top 5 audio dealers in the country. Besides Bess they do have some other knowledgable phone reps. If you want to deal with reps that have no knowledge call Audio Advisor. |
So how is it that companies like Audio Research, Wilson, Magico and the hundreds of other high-end manufacturers are able to push their product. Who are the first buyers of this class of gear? What are the supply and distribution chains?
I agree that B&M stores are falling by the weigh-side (sp?), so how are these companies getting their product to market ... and ultimately into the hands of retail customers.
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