bellesfan
Thank You for the link and post.
Happy Listening!
Thank You for the link and post.
Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,518 responses Add your response
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-2-3-vs-2-4-the-real-difference If anyone else is interested, I found an old thread comparing the differences between the 2.3 and 2.4. In a nut shell, there are slight differences in the mids and uppers. Not as big a difference as sdecker claims (2021). According to him its “not night and day” ,and “NOT big differences”(2003). I’m thinking maybe his 2.3s didn’t have the upgraded coaxs, so with my 2.3s upgraded there should be even less of a difference. |
sdl4 I believe in careful yet prudent calculations when building a reference system. I do not care to have cabling sourced to china in my system. This has been quite an exercise because too many U.S. companies are cutting corners. Nordost and Synergistic Research, are noted for not sourcing to china, I have inquired each of these manufacturers. Happy Listening! |
sdl4 - The 2.2s are quite good, aren't they? And they're highly upgradable with better XO components and related goodies - when the time comes. Regarding cable, I have rotated a dozen or so interconnects and speaker cables through my setup over the past couple years to reference my ears in my room and system. My favorite is Morrow. You might consider it, with their generous take-back trial deal. |
jafant, I am impressed by your patience in your search for the best cables for your system. As I face my rapidly advancing years, I am finding myself becoming less and less patient in making decisions about my audio gear. I've come to realize that researching gear online is a lot less rewarding than listening to new gear at home, so I'm making faster and more quickly researched decisions. Lately, I've been upgrading my streaming gear, and the music keeps sounding better with each new change. Fortunately, my Thiel 2.2s have welcomed each upgrade and are not holding back my system in any way. |
solobone22 My pleasure. I once owned Transparent Super MM2 interconnects (IC) and speaker cables (SP). I have not auditioned the GEN5 series. I will try to demo the ARC CD6 as soon as possible for a comparison to your impression(s). It could very well be a matter of 'newer is not always better'. I concur w/ your assessment and evaluation of the CS 2.7 loudspeakers. Are you using Transparent speaker cables? A mix-match of cabling could act as a culprit to "rounding" as well. Happy Listening! |
@jafant always appreciate your perspective I was using Transparent Super XLR. I have a much older pair and the dealer gave me a pair of the recent ones to try. The newer pair was better in the bass however I still couldn't live with it. I've read great things about the ARC CD9 and Aesthetix players however would be hesitant to buy either without auditioning them at home. I will say this - the depth, width, dynamics, and tonal qualities of the 2.7's never cease to amaze! |
solobone22 Thank You for citing your system. It does seem a bit unusual with the CD6 presentation and sound. I wonder if ARC cut corners on this spinner? Over the years, I have read that the CD7 is the best cd player ARC made. I did not detect any "softening" with the CD5 nor CD9. I auditioned each player in an all-ARC system. I suspect that a touch of synergy was going on there. Which cabling are you using with the Krell and CS 2.7 ? Sidenote - I did find the ARC CD9 and Aesthetix Romulus equally excellent in a shoot out. Additionally, each of these 2 spinners feature a killer DAC (if this is a consideration?). Happy Listening! |
Had the opportunity to put an ARC CD6 into the system with Krell FBI and Thiel 2.7. The top through midbass was amazing...the best this system has ever sounded. However once you got into the bass it had no bite. Symphonic bass drum sounded like they were being struck with pillows. Double bass didn't have the grunt on the front of the note where appropriate. Overall I would describe it as "rounded". Has anyone compared the CD6 to other ARC spinners with Thiels? My 3.6 are currently damaged and awaiting repair so I couldn't test those. |
OK, sounds like you officially have a homework assignment. I was just listening last night, and decided not to move the speakers because I was very happy with the soundstage and imaging. But, I guess it can’t hurt to try. It may take me a few days, but I will report back what I find. also, I do have some treatments on the wall and a very thick shag rug on top of the carpeted floor. Also, I believe the open rafters help break up the sound as well. I do notice when I said closer to the speakers, the imaging is still good, but the realism is not as convincing. |
I'm still going back and forth between the borrowed Bryston 4B3 and my CJ premier 12 tube monos (140w/side). Basically the same impression every time. The Bryston has a bit more grip from top to bottom, a bit more tonal precision and clarity (well...tough call about clarity...both sound clear, the Bryston just a little bit more informative). But the CJ is no wilting wallflower tube amp. It has at least as balls-to-the-wall energy and punch as the Bryston. And it has that "breath of life" tonality, where instruments and voices sound more texturally filled out and present, airy and "there" like I'm seeing through the electronics to the real event. My dream is to try something like the Conrad Johnson ART amplifiers (e.g. original ART 275W/side, or the new ART 300 monos or ART 150 stereo amp). As I understand it those give the closest to the best of SS and the CJ sound. I'm also currently playing with a JL Audio 110e subwoofer with my Thiel 2.7s. Buried way back in this thread, 3 years ago, I was talking about integrating these subwoofers. Yes they have actually been sitting around that long because THAT is how much I dislike subwoofers! :-) Anyway, it's getting interesting. I've been unable, as was the case last time I tried. to fully keep the midrange and upper frequency character I love about the speakers when using the subwoofer. I have a Dspeaker anti-mode I'm going to use today to see how that helps. |
@bellesfan I still have my 2.3s and have been listening primarily to my 2.4s since 2006. I can tell you despite the similar external appearance, there are MANY changes between the two speakers that make them very different. Some tweaks may be made to the 2.3 XO, but you'd be nowhere near to a 2.4. If you want the full list of changes I can PM you, but it might depress you... |
bellesfan Thank You for the CS7/7.2 update per Mr. Rob Gillum via CSS. I suspect that the CS 2.4 has an updated cabinet with an Oval passive radiator. Outriggers to match. Possible newly designed crossover (XO)? Regarding the CS 2.3, it is good to read that your pair has the upgraded Coax driver(s). I wonder if this model has Outriggers to match? Happy Listening! |
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I contacted Rob at Coherent Source and he no longer has upgrade kits for cs7’s to 7.2. He also informed me that the coax drivers in the 2.3s were upgraded near the serial number 4567. The upgraded one has two magnets. My question to those in the know, what else besides the passive radiator and crossover was changed or upgraded in the 2.4? Can any improvements be made to the 2.3 ? my serial number is 5313, so I already have the updated coax. Thanks, happy listening |
Marqmike, thanks for the heads up, I’ll check out those power cords. That’s a nice sounding amp. Years ago when the first 150 reference came out, I did get to hear it and compare it to the hot rod. I immediately heard the difference. I haven’t been able to hear anything else from Belles since then because local shop stopped carrying the products. Thanks |
Unsound, thanks for the advice. I did just spend a bunch of time adjusting speaker placement. Its amazing what a 1/4 inch of toe in will do. To be accurate, if you are measuring from the center of drivers, the speakers are 14’ apart. My room is dual purpose, 2ch and theater. That being said, there is a little wiggle room to move in the direction you recommend. I’ll give it a try. I didn’t mention, the left speaker is only 2 feet from the side wall, and there is no wall near right speaker.Thanks |
Jafant, the local dealer that sold me my Belles, Shanling, and Primaluna, let me audition the Primaluna Dialogue HP (high power) integrated at home before I pulled the trigger. It’s a killer tube amp, but I liked the solid state Belles better with the Thiels. Was looking for a 150 reference or an SA100 when I discovered John at Audio Connection. He pretty much has me talked into a Virtuoso. We’ll see what happens. |
Bellesfan I have a Belles Ref 150a V2 on my Thiel 2.4's. I have a wireworld silver electra 5.2 power cord on it. It was a nice noticeable improvement. I paid about 250.00 for a used one. It might be worth trying a cord or two. Two others that were on my radar when I got this one was JPS Labs Power+, Triode Wire Labs 7 +. |
bellesfan I would venture to say that if you enjoy the Belles house-sound, then, move up the amp chain. On the other hand, if you enjoy the Primaluna house -sound, then, add one of its amp to your system.Best practice is to visit local dealers/retailers to demo competition products.I practiced this very advice 10 years prior to assembling my Reference system. It is an incredible Audio journey. Fun too! Happy Listening! |
@bellesfan, If I may be so bold to recommend (and I offer this without knowing all room dimensions) that you try moving you speakers 3’ in so that the centers are 10’ apart, and moving the speakers further out from the wall behind the speakers so that the speakers are 10’ from your listening position. This could remove more of the sound from the room, providing a greater degree of direct listening, while maintaining ideal driver integration. |
Jafant, now that my system can breathe and function at its full potential, I can justify experimenting with tweaks. In my old house it just didn’t make sense. Perhaps you could make some suggestions to steer me in the right direction, as I am a novice audiophile. As much as I love my Belles hot rod, I have been thinking an upgrade in my amp would make the most sense. If I do upgrade, a power cord would be a must. Thanks, happy listening. |
The biggest improvement to my system has been moving into a new room. We have a very large open basement and I made a theater room at one end. The Thiels are 13 feet apart, 3 feet from the rear walls, and 16 feet from my listening seat. The sound stage and imaging is glorious. The vocals are dead center, very holographic, and up into the ceiling at times. A lot of the sound stage improvements also come from the addition of the preamp, and the CIFTE NOS tubes I installed. There is no comparison to the old corner of the basement in my old 900 square-foot house where the speakers were crammed up against the wall and my listening chair was literally touching the furnace. Not ideal by any means, but I made the best of it. happy listening |
bellesfan Absolutely! I have read about Shandling over the years and most fans stay with the stock PC. This is a testament to quality engineering.A dedicated line certainly helps as does a conditioner/re-generator (much will depend on your locale). Reading this thread all of the way through, you will discover, that I am the first to stand up for cables/cords.By all means, experiment and have fun, in the process! Happy Listening! |
Thoft, I agree with you. When I visit the audio stores, I rarely hear Speakers that I like as much as Thiels. It just seems something is missing. I have listen to some really high-end, high dollar, systems locally and was thinking to myself “my system sounds better“. Jafant, when I moved into my new house, I had a dedicated 20 amp line installed just for the power amp\stereo system. I run the Belles straight into the wall, and the rest of the system through a Panamax power conditioner. The Shandling has a pretty decent power cord, and I ended up with a spare one that I use on the Primaluna. Would like to eventually play with power cords to see if they make a difference in my system. happy listening |
@thoft as your comment above is aligned with my recent comments of perhaps finally hearing the reality of coherence for the first time in 20 years of Thiel ownership, I'll of course throw in my 2 cents worth with a long essay :-| I've been going to the big audio shows annually (Montreal in recent years), auditioning in the better brick-and-mortar stores to assess the latest and greatest at all price points and design approaches. All components, but ultimately the speakers used are the 'gatekeepers.' After all these years I can recognize great sound, not-so-great sound, and a very 'different' sound. And hear the best soundstaging and clarity, primarily, that exceed what I'm used to at home. But every time I return home with a weekend of high-end audio fresh in my head, there's a certain 'rightness' to the sound in my room that more than makes up for the improved specific attributes of various systems I heard at shows or showrooms. I can focus on the attributes my rig doesn't do as well as the uber-systems, but that doesn't alter the listening satisfaction. This does prevent major upgrade fever, and also makes it very clear when I do make a tweak for the better. Some of this is long-term familiarity with my electronics and room acoustic, but from recent posts, I think a lot has to do with my 2.4s presenting my audio signals out of the power amp more realistically than the mostly non-coherent speakers I'd been auditioning. IOW I'm not missing the coherence when listening to other speakers, but relaxing back into it when I return to coherence. But this seems a long-term thing. I don't recall the Thiel or Vandersteen or Zu rooms sounding 'relaxed' or even that great, but I also don't hear this coherence 'difference' when comparing speakers back and forth. |
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So I’ve been thinking. With the purchase of the amps it would be hard to squeeze in the 7’s. Think I should just stick with what I have for now and just save for 3.7 or the 7.2. 7.2 might be better cause of the mineral polymer baffle instead of straight cement." The 7.2s are harder to drive than the 3.7s and of course are not as efficient (7.2s were tested by a magazine at 85.5 and 3.7s were tested at 90.7). Remember, that some 7.2s could be upgraded 7s (and I'm not sure if all 7.2s had the composite baffle or early ones had the concrete one). The concrete baffle weighs a bit more (I think about 15pounds or so per speaker so it is about 155 lbs vs 170). The 7.2s will play a bit lower than the 3.7s (but not tons, depending on the room). They sound different. I'd think that some people heavy into classical music could prefer the 7.2s but the 3.7s are smoother. |
bellesfan, Excellent! Good to read that Acoustic Zen (AZ) and DH Labs are a sonic match w/ Thiel loudspeakers. The Shanling is a fine spinner as well.Is this company still in business?Your ears do not deceive. A Pre-Amp, is the heart of any Audio system.Yes, an Integrated amp counts as well. Happy Listening! |
It’s funny. I go around listening to thes epsekaers people have for sale. Speakers that cost more than mine even and they all just miss something these thiels have. How real they sound. How they make the voices sound like they’re singing in the same room as you. Only the Ar9, certain kef models, dahlquist, vandersteen, and sonus faber even get close. None match the coherency the thiels have at all except for the vandersteen. Obviously I’m missing a few others but those are the speakers whose sound I can remember very well and is familiar with. |
Jafant, I’m running Acoustic Zen Wow interconnects and DH labs Q10 speaker cables. Haven’t invested in power cables as of yet. Just added the Primaluna to the system a couple years ago when I moved into a bigger house with a room big enough to support serious listening. For about 17 plus years I was running my Shanling tube cd player straight into the Belles 150a hot rod, using the preamp in the Shanling. The improvements from adding the Primaluna were so great ,I started wondering what a better amp would do. |
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Thanks for the response, that pretty much answers my question. I think I will stick with my 2.3’s for now." There's also a post of mine here from December 3, 2019 - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2?page=143 Later 2.3s, I believe right before the introduction of the 2.4s had vented tweeters as noted in the above post. |
Thanks for the response, that pretty much answers my question. I think I will stick with my 2.3’s for now. I am currently running a Primaluna tube preamp through a Belles150 a hot rod. Was getting the urge to move up the Belles line of amplifiers to see what my system is capable of. Don’t get me wrong, the hot rod sounds amazing but you know how it goes. I had my sights set on the new virtuoso, when the Cs7’s popped up and got me thinking. I could probably buy the Cs7’s and a used amp for the same or less than the Virtuoso. Was wondering what would be the bigger step up. |