Nice thread! I've actually been thinking about "where are the Thiel owners these days?" as well.
I was on here quite a bit last year as I fretted about which set of Thiels to buy. Huge fan of the old CS6s, and struggled between buying a second hand pair of the "newer" 2.7 or 3.7.
I ended up with a nice pair of 3.7s from audiogon and have had a great time pairing them with my CJ monoblocks and even sometimes with my tiny Eico HF-81 (flabbier bass...but oh that huge, golden Eico midrange combined with the Thiel clarity and transparency is pretty magical).
I've got them working very well in my smallish room, very even sounding, no bass bloat. But at this point I'm wondering if I might have been better off with a pair of 2.7s that I had been interested in. They had my favorite composite ebony finish. They would have probably been a better fit aesthetically for me.
So sad the real Thiels are no longer....
(And the Thiel website doesn't even seem to be up to date or working either. I wonder how they are doing).
|
Many Thanks! Carmenc.
I know you will return to Thiel someday. |
I missed most of this posting until now, but reading al of it I must say it is good to hear some of the comments that confirm some of my feelings about Thiel speakers....namely the older models. One comment was from a member that owns both the CS6 and 3.6 - he preferred the 3.6. There are a lot of favorable mentions of the 2 2. I myself own multiple models and use in 5.1 and 2 channel systems. I have a couple smartsubs, four PCS, three MCS and four 2 2. Some of these are extra (Back-up) because I never want to be without Thiel in my system and after Jim's passing, in my mind the legacy ended. My point is, that even though the 2 2 has given way to newer models, I can't seem to let myself part with them. They sound so good that it is not worth selling since they are WAY undervalued in the used market. I have no room for this stuff! How do people part with something like that and not have regret?
|
I've had good results with Harmonic Tech and Acoustic Zen, namely the Sartori. They added a warmth and fullness to the Thiels. I eventually switched to MIT magnum during my last year or so with my Thiel CS 2 2. Both brands worked really well I felt depending on which amp I used. Hope that helps. By the way, I miss my Thiels. They certainly may be in my future again if I get a larger listening room. Take care Jafant and enjoy your journey!
|
I'm something of a fan for Anticables, but I'm now using Goertz Veracity cables with bananas all around. Anticables have a habit of becoming loose when I occasionally have to move the speakers. They're very stiff.
(I just bought a Primare i22 integrated, class d amplification, 120 watts into 4 ohms...)
I actually prefer the Goertz cables a little over the Anti's, I believe they offer a somewhat fuller resolution overall, with the Anti's perhaps being a little brighter.
But then again, I like "bright" sonics in my speakers. I haven't cared much about a few hertz here or there in the lower registers since I dismantled my 10+ year old Klipsch CF-3 speakers a few years back. My 3.5's are 20hz-20khz - the whole megillah.
Long live Thiel!
|
Guys-
which other brands of Speaker cables are you using and/or have tried with your Thiel loudspeakers? Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Having a local Transparent Cable dealer/retailer is sweet!
These are very fine cables and cords that get better the further one goes up their chain of products. A very generous upgrade program as well.
Keep me posted & give a shout-out to your local Audio shops!
Happy Listening!
|
Right On! guys-
no need to tilt these speakers nor raise them above their respective outriggers. It is all in the design by JT. Keep the info flowing.
Happy Listening!
|
The bottom placement of the speaker terminals might be nuisance when auditioning cables, but once one's decided upon their favorite cables, I find their unobtrusive appearance and the hidden from children, pets, etc. a bonus. I would think again about raising the speakers. BTW, why travel to get cables when cables can come to you; http://fatwyre.com/ http://www.usedcables.com/
|
use the Vandersteen manual to pick locations. very similar design philosophy w Jim. ignore the tilt, taken care of for you w sloped baffle, but the slope creates the limit of the 9-12' ish sweet spot. just design trade...
|
|
jafant...
I'm also thinking of raising my Thiels a few inches higher than their bases situate them currently. I read much about Maggie 1.7's here and used similar information to good effect when I had those. (I love Magnepan, too.)
MHO: Thiels are Maggies with more bass...
I don't know if that will improve anything sonically, but it will certainly help in connecting different cables to them. I doubt it will suffer anything, either.
My local store just became a Transparent dealer which saves me a 50 mile trip - maybe even money! I do suggest using spades on the speaker connections since their location and that little tunnel to run them through can be a nuisance with banana connectors. |
Thanks! dar57, carmenc, and oblgny-
very insightful intel indeed. Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
jafant...
I played the CJ MF200 for a few hours yesterday and I can say that it's a pretty impressive amp for its age. CJ doesn't offer a power rating into a 4 ohm load like my Thiels, but with 200 watts into 8 ohms I will assume I won't be stressing either.
Anyway, I'm currently using an ARC LS 3 solid state preamp, and it may be only my aural imagination but I am not getting any of that "warm" CJ sound - which is a positive. (Not that the warmth of CJ equipment ever bothered me.) I thinks its more their preamplifiers that impart that trait in many user's opinions. (I've had other CJ amps and preamps as well.)
I also have a Classe preamp...model number eludes me right now, and THAT imparted warmth. I'll be hooking that up and comparing sometime this weekend.
Overall the CJ and the ARC preamp are a good match. I heard excellent low end response from my Thiels at a very moderate listening level. I sit approximately 10 feet away from my speakers so that's a good thing. I use Ginger Baker's "Cyril Davies" cut off of his most recent release "Why?" as a canary-in-a-goldmine reference since it has dynamics all over the place. I then use some New Orleans jazz - if an amp can render this and that well its a keeper!
PS: I got the amp for under $700...
|
You might consider a Belles amp. Perhaps the Soloist 1 integrated even. They have a full, tuneful and robust sound to me that would mate quite nice with Thiels. However, as a previous Thiel owner, I'd go with a solid state amp, think Levinson, Krell, Conrad Johnson, BAT, Classe or Belles. Then add a tube preamp which will help to flesh out the sound from the Thiels. As Thiel's Kathy Gornick was once quoted as saying, " I never heard a Thiel speaker that didn't sound better with a tube preamp." For cables, go Straightwire, Transparent or MIT. Keep us posted and enjoy your Thiels.....they're worth it. Best.
|
unsound, jafant, others,
Thanks very much for the encouragement. I think the next step will be to borrow some very long cables from the local shop and try various speaker locations. I am pretty much in agreement with everything said and will post (when I have time over the weekend) any progress. Thanks again!
|
Anything NAD is not going to have enough "juice" for Thiel loudspeakers.
Keep me posted as you massage your CJ amp into your system.
I am interested in some of the new models from CJ. |
Just for the heck of it today I stopped in at my local bricks and mortar shop right here down in good old Lake Grove, NY. I'm about to invest in SOMETHING new.
Anyway, after talking with my sales guy for a while regarding new amps I spotted a used Conrad Johnson MF200 solid state amp with a really good price tag attached to it. I came home and hooked it up and...pretty darn good!
The only amp that my Thiels did not like was a NAD 375bee integrated. |
Musical Fidelity & Anthem products are a sonic match w/ Thiel speakers. |
VAC/VTL are reported to match well w/ Thiel speakers!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Pops, thanks, but perhaps except for the long wall placement; it's more like reading the manual :-). I have tried other placements, the Dunlavy approach was especially insightful, but Thiel's recommendations seems to work best, at least for me.
|
|
dar57-
it is good to continue reading about Ayre being a sonic match w/ Thiel.
Ayre gear can be matched w/ Transparent cabling to boot.
I concur with the panel, sit 8-12 ft from speakers, as they throw, a wide and deep soundstage. Most certainly not a near-field listening speaker.
Additionally, I would not place any furniture in the path between you and your speakers. Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Unsound could write the manual! I have tried many locations for my Thiels and Unsounds is about where they sound best for me as well.
Experimentation with placement however is a must.
|
dar57, Most rooms vary enough, that there are no hard rules. My room is very similar to yours, though I do have a rather high ceiling. I prefer the long wall placement when it can work. I have my Thiel's backs out 3' from the wall behind them, 10' apart center to center, >5' from speaker cabinet wall to side wall, with my listening position close up against the opposing wall with a large piece of thick foam with thick fabric covering, speakers are about 9' from the listening position firing straight ahead, without toe in. Of course one could use other approaches, i.e., rule of thirds, etc.. With Thiels do try to keep 8'-12' from listening position to speaker. Keeping the entertainment center cabinet well away from the speakers is a very good idea! |
Maplegrovemusic, ones room and listening position will ultimately determine speaker positioning. The Thiels are very accurate off axis to begin with, and straight ahead positioning can help provide a wide soundstage as well as negate some brightness. More importantly to attain driver integration and wave form fidelity; one should sit at least 8' from Thiels. |
I had a pair of CS2.4's and recently traded them in for CS2.7's. I don't find that toe-in is necessary at all. The imaging is fantastic from almost anywhere in front. BTW, the 2.7's definitely have better articulation than the 2.4's and don't seem to lack for a full sound (compared to other speakers of a similar price range; I compared with Aerial 6T and 7T).
I do have a question (and being a newbie, please let me know if a different forum might be preferable). My room is approx. 22' x 13'. I have my entertainment center on the long wall with the speakers fairly close to the large cabinet. I figure I'm sitting maybe 8 to 9 feet from the speakers. When I'm sitting, my ears are pretty level with the mids/tweeters and the speakers are still too bright (I have Transparent cables and an Ayre Integrated, so the perceived shrillness is not due to these components). If I stand against the opposite wall the whole system sounds very good. Sorry for the long prologue. I am wondering if I either need to eliminate the cabinet's interference with the speakers or if the ultimate solution will be to move my system to a short wall so that I can move the speakers away from the wall and cabinet and also move the sitting to a range greater then 9' away? As things are now, the bass is getting lost somewhere. I'll eventually experiment, but I'm wondering if others have had experience with this? |
How do you guys setup your Thiels . I have read that no toe in is recommended ? Why is that ? |
I had a pair of 3.5 (or 6)...anyway, my wife passed and I needed a present so I replaced them.....but I really thought they were wonderful.
|
should have checked before my last post.
they have:
CS 2
CS 3
CS 3.5
|
used gear shop u district Seattle almost always has a pair or three at fair prices.. |
Hard to go wrong with used thiel these days. Especially with the right amplification. I may pick up a pair a t some point as well |
|
Listening to my pair of Thiel CS2.4s connected by Audience AU24SE to the 4ohm tap of my phi upgraded VAC PA100/100. |
|
Gentlemen, I agree, the Thiel's are an incredible value on the used market, great speaker's in general, ahead of their time really. |
^The CS 5's are wonderful, but besides the need for an appropriate room, they really need a large amplifier budget. |
Unsound...
Thanks for the information, I was not aware of that. The only thing that would make me move these into storage would be moving up the food chain. I've been watching a pair of CS5's....but they're too large for my current domicile. *sigh* |
Do Model 02 count ?
IMO Jim and Richard Vandersteen are on the short list of engineer / designers / music lovers who get it..RIP Jim
We moved a bit of Jims stuff with Audionics CC2 amps....back in the day..
|
Hi jafant, I'm working my way this year to a new front end and speaker's, an endeavor I dread! , likely, build my own speaker's to compete with stupid money speaker's, you know, they have state of the art machine shop's here in mobile, al,,, thinking cabinets like magico! |
oblgny, the older Thiels such as your 3.5's (I'm a big fan) were much more accommodating to tube amps with very steady impedances that didn't drop below the 4 Ohms. Thiels such as the CS 5's, and later ones with concentric drivers presented a very different load to amplifiers. |
oblgny-
Yes, Pass Labs is a terrific sonic match indeed. I want to demo their integrated amps for sure. This is the 2nd or 3rd time that I have read about Transparent cabling being use w/ Thiel. Also, good to learn that Transparent matches Pass Labs.
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
lp2cd-
Many Thanks! for sharing your listening experience. This is the 1st time that I have read about Classe' being used w/ Thiel. Very nice intel indeed!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
|
jafant...
I've driven my Thiels (2.2, 3.1, and currently 3.5's) with both tube and solid state amplifiers and have found that they are excellent with either. The one complaint I have with these "vintage" (minty!, in eBay parlance) designs is the speaker cabling, specifically where Thiel located the binding posts themselves. On the bottom!
This rules out using the "garden hose" variety of speaker cables since keeping them off of the floor proved to be problematic. I've used Goertz Alpha Core, Transparent Music Waves, and now I have AntiCables level 3 - which I've long been a fan of. That aside, very few loudspeakers have impressed me as much as Thiels do. My 3.5's are full range, 20hz - 20khz, and I've never used a subwoofer. They still continue to deliver outstanding sonics.
I think my favorite match up with mine was a Pass Labs X150.5, 150 watts into 8, 300 watts into 4 ohms which the Thiels are. My listening level is very conservative, and I've had fun listening with a McIntosh MC275 Mark VI tube amplifier, 75 watts per channel into virtually any load. Also a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum integrated, 100 watts per channel. In retrospect I think I have to give the nod to the Pass Labs. Having all that extra headroom made me believe I was treating them right even if my listening level wouldn't stress a modest amp.
I've just purchased a Peachtree Audio 220SE integrated which will out put 350 watts into 4 ohms for the heck of it. (Pretty good deal direct from them.) I'm also looking at an Audio Research 300.2 amplifier - which is class T, capable of 500 watts per channel into 4 ohms.
One thing I will never do is part with my 3.5's again. The first pair I owned I gave to my nephew when I purchased a pair of Counterpoint Clearfield Metropolitans, an Alfred Von Schwiekert design. They were physically HUGE speakers. A few months ago I found another pair of the 3.5's right here not he gone and bought them without contacting the seller first. Regardless of price Thiels are some of the best loudspeakers out there. I love 'em. Good luck with yours! |
^classe and Thiel classic for sure. Congrats on knowing what you like and liking what you know!!! Rare amongst audiophiles. |
How about Thiel 2 2s (no decimal point)? Mine are 20(!) years old now, and whenever I hear another pair of speakers that sound really good, I go back and listen to the 2 2s, and realize that, nah, it really doesn't get much better than this, at least not for any rational amount of money. I drive them with a Classé CA-200 amp connected with Kimber 8PR cables. The system also includes a Mirage BPSS-210 sub, and its active tune-able crossover crossed @ 60 Hz, which isn't loud but is undistorted and remarkably flat and enables the system to go cleanly well below 20 Hz. State of the art at the time, and still darn good! Not so good with most turntables, however. Infrasonic TT rumble can make the sub nuts to the point I have to take it out of the system.
I haven't spent much time auditioning the newer Thiels since I bought the 2 2s, but at the time it was certainly the case that Thiel speakers in general, being rather inefficient and often a bit challenging to drive, were decidedly best with solid-state amplification. Pairing them with a Classé amp was, and likely still is, a match made in audio heaven.
|
Thank You! dgarretson for the "special sauce" of this SE loudspeaker.
Do you own Thiel speakers? Have you DIY'ed the ESA product(s)?
Or know someone whom has performed this mod?
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
|
Much Thanks! guys-
everyone has been very helpful. Yes, I will welcome any comments, thoughts or impressions on Thiel and the gear that makes them great!
Pops, you nailed it on timbre' and tone- this is the upper hand of these speakers, IMO.
|
Congratulations jafant, you finally getting a system together, I like to come listen to your system when you get done building it, cheers. |
^Interesting, your impressions of the MI 2's vs. the MI 3's were so different than mine. I found the MI 3's to negate the emphasis of the brightness region (mid to lower treble), centering the sonic midrange, and though appearing contradictory; making the bass both tighter and richer . Perhaps it's due to different model Thiel's, with different amps, in different rooms through different ears. :-) |
Unsound you are correct and good call out! Straightwire Maestro II is the most consistent match that I go back to alot - it is also my base to compare other cables. It does everything I like. I owned SW Virtuoso for a while but it was a little grainy compared to Maestro.
I also like and own Goertz M-2's, need new zobel networks, mine are broken. I tried the M-3's but the larger AWG seemed to make them more on the bright side.
|
I can't comment on Pops current cable recommendations, and I know he's previously tried some of the following, but I'll put them forward any way: Alpha-Core Goertz (w/ rc networks or zobels) Ocos Straightwire Wire World Enjoy! |
While some might enjoy these Thiels with tube amps, ultimately I don't believe tubes are the ideal match:
|
