I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
I was only referencing amps in my experience how I came to become a Thiel owner. It wasnt intended to tout one amp over the other.
The point to walkway with is, high current amps perform much better with the Thiel’s. Thats how they were designed. What brand one chooses is on them.
When one thinks their amp seems to perform well there is no further thought that really goes into it. When they get the opportunity to hear a higher current amp then they will know what they have been missing.
I mostly try not to act like a weirdo on here but I got my 3.7s hooked up and I'm listening to the brandenburg concertos on youtube. Nothing is better than this.
Hi everyone, I am curious about the differences between CS5 and CS5i. I couldn't find the info online so I thought I'd ask here. CS5 are rare on the market and CS5i even more so. Thanks in advance!
Welcome! Good to see you here today. We have a few fans/owners of model CS5/CS5i loudspeakers here on The Panel. Stay tuned until one of our experts chimes in to address your query.
Think of it like the CS 7 to CS 7.2 conversion. Same cabinet but drivers upgraded and vital cover parts. In the CS5i the bass drivers were upgraded.
The CS5i is the way to go. With the right amps and room it would take a considerable amount os scratch to better them. After the future upgrades that will be offered that will be even harder to accomplish.
They go lower than any sealed cabinet speaker on the market still I believe. I have two pair in walnut and rosewood and they hit like a hammer in the bass.
This is my personal favorite Thiel speaker. I'm tweaking the room for them to perform at an even higher level.
Again monster amps to clear the throat from these beasts. The front baffle is incredible. Never have I seen one like this before.
I have better sources, I like the video I think it adds to the experience. My trusty Cambridge 840s are still doing great as monoblocks. Benchmark DAC 2 is good enough for me. Bryston BP26 preamp is also good enough for me. I just want to be able to enjoy the music. This system is great for me.
The CS5 was designed 'on demand', most notably for the Japanese market which wanted a 'Hear God' loudspeaker from Thiel. As such, the CS5 displaced a potential CS4 which would have been an incremental advance over the CS3.5. The CS5 was also on a forced time-table because the market was brimming with new 'statement' models from many manufacturers. Contrary to street talk, the CS5 was not a 'price no object' product. It respected and solidified Thiel's approach to working within budgets determined by eschewing superfluous costs and concentrating on high-value, cost-effective solutions. Our internal, working retail target was $15K/pair, but by trimming fat, we brought it to market at $9300/pair. As manufacturing director, I advocated unsuccessfully for a higher price with further enhancements - notably more advanced cabinet construction.
By 1988, Jim had taken the plunge into Finite Element Analysis which he applied to driver design to develop many solutions that subsequently became embedded in the industry at large. His first FEA-enhanced design was the 1988 CS1.2 tweeter with a copper voice-coil shorting ring which shunted voice coil eddy currents to meaningfully increase onset transient integrity. That driver paved the way for the more ambitious CS5 UltraTweeter with underhung motor topology and 1/10th the distortions of previously available drivers (at any price.) The UltraTweeter served the CS5, CS5i, CS3.6, and CS2.2. It was dead-ended by our choice of coaxial tweeter-midranges to solve the inherent vertical interference problem of first order x time-aligned drivers. The CS5 upper midrange was an off-the-shelf MB-Quart 51mm dome. Those two top drivers are the same in the original CS5 and the later improved CS5i version.
The CS5i applied newly developed motor changes to the lower midrange, woofer and two subwoofers. Specifically, we had identified pole-piece eddy currents as a previously invisible, but sonically important distortion mechanism. The first-generation solution was to taper the diameter of the pole piece from its required diameter at the voice coil, gradually diminishing toward the motor back plate to better manage the magnetic fields. These improvements were made possible by developing our in-house driver development lab in the early 1990s. We iterated dozens of proof of concept drivers with 1-day turnaround rather than 1 month turnarounds working with our Danish (Vifa / ScanSpeak) supply partners. We made all elements including cones which we spun with our shop-made mechanical/hydraulic spinner. The hand built prototype driver was driven 40 miles to Eminence Speaker who had made our 01 / 03 woofers and had the first Klippel development system in North America. They authenticated / verified our lab measurement results and projected Thiele / Small parameters.
Bottom line is that we upgraded the motors of the Focal lower midrange, and ScanSpeak woofer and subwoofers with tapered pole-pieces and tapered-edge top plates. Those drivers use the same moving system and crossover circuitry as the original CS5 while substantially improving fidelity. Most CS5 owners upgraded to the CS5i. That upgrade kit included the 4 new, drop-in drivers only.
Rob at CSS has no CS5i drivers, but he does offer moving system replacements which are the same for the CS5 and CS5i. The only visual difference between the 5 and 5i is the mass loading of the subwoofers. The original rubber mats proved troublesome via eventual corner lifting of of the mats. The 5i MDF center plugs perform the same loading function without the hassles. If you find a pair of original 5s, the bottom 4 drivers have state-of-the-art 1988 technology. The CS5i subs, woofer and lower-midrange drivers substantially better that performance in the low end.
I'm not the only one to appreciate the Cambridge 840w as monoblocks. Doug Schroeder reviewed them that way when they came out and thought they were exceptional, describing them as "the best sounding SS amps I have used regardless of cost." I'm not a reviewer and haven't heard dozens of amps in my system but I've never been tempted to upgrade. They replaced a pair of Classe CA200s and I thought they were better than those. This system is so good I'm never really tempted to replace any of it. If anything I'd upgrade the room treatment but it hasn't been a priority since kids. I think I'd have to spend a fortune to get a significant upgrade and I'd miss the money more than enjoy the improvement if there even was one.
@tomthielThank you for this fantastic write-up of the differences between the two versions.
Most CS5 owners upgraded to the CS5i.
Great to know that some of the CS5 out there may actually be functionally equivalent to CS5i
The only visual difference between the 5 and 5i is the mass loading of the subwoofers. The original rubber mats proved troublesome via eventual corner lifting of of the mats. The 5i MDF center plugs perform the same loading function without the hassles.
I read this a few times and I am still a little confused. First thing that came to mind was a MDF brace at the back of the woofer motor, but you say the difference is visible so that couldn’t be it. If you could clarify what the difference looks like, that would be really great. Also, would that difference be there in CS5 that have been upgraded to CS5i spec, or just in factory CS5i? Thank you!
devinplombier - guess that was somewhat dense. Let's try again.
If the 2 subwoofers have visible rubber mats on their cones, they have not been upgraded to CS5i status because the CS5i MDF plug replaced the rubber mats for mass loading.
The MDF plug looks like a small hockey puck where the dust cap used to be. Those plug drivers have the new motors, and at the same time the woofers and lower midrange were replaced with the new motor version, even though those 2 drivers look the same as the original CS5.
Rob says the 5 to 5i upgrades were all in 4-driver sets, so there probably aren't any mix and match hybrids around.
Scratch that- you do not have a message option on your account?
For your consideration- there are (2) pairs of CS5i loudspeakers offered by High Performance Stereo in the Miami FL area. Walnut finish plus Wood crates for shipping. Keep me posted on buying decision.
Over on eBay there are a pair of CS5i Scan Speak woofers being offered in Asheboro NC area. I hope these drivers and loudspeakers find the next good home(s).
Thanks for the tip. I researched High Performance Stereo in FL around the time they started advertising these two pairs. The online feedback was not particularly confidence-inspiring: it painted a picture of a business where a knowledgeable audiophile would be comfortable doing business in person, but online buyers reported horror stories that sadly sounded all too credible.
PayPal protects online purchases to some extent, but may require goods to be shipped to a third party after settlement, at buyer's expense. That would be an issue :)
I agree with you about the grills off and I too wish the woofers were black ,
I'm not sure if an aluminum baffle frame would be an improvement but since the woofer and the baffle are the same as the 2.4 ( of which many more were built ) maybe someday the dream will come true .
A while back I had tried adding resistors in series with the coaxial speakers , they didn't sound good . Tom suggested tring a bypass capacitor on the 1uf bypass capacitors on the tweeter and the mid speakers , I found a pair of .01uf Cardas capacitors and installed them on the tweeter I can highly recommend this "upgrade" . I only did the tweeter because I think these were the last 2 capacitors for sale since Cardas stopped making their golden ratio caps a while back (bummer) .
Can you talk about the presentation and sound after adding those Cardas .01uf capacitors? Feel free to cite your fave musical tracks that saw an improvement "upgrade".
I usually use symphony orchestra music Beethoven's symphonies or Dvorak's "New World " 9th symphony by the Chicago Symphony with Fritz Reiner conducting. I will also use David Crosby's first album to listen to the chiming guitar sounds and how they linger and fade away .
If one feels that your Thiel's are to bright then the adding of a .01uf cap on the tweeter solves the problem , the violins now reach the highest levels without sounding bright or brittle , the hall sounds larger than ever , and this was done after installing Mills resistors and Clarity Purity 15uf caps on both the tweeter and mid crossovers .
over on U.S. Audiomart there are (2) OEM CS 2.3 coaxial drivers avail. Located in HI from a former Thiel dealer/retailer. I hope this pair find the next good home.
Good to see you here today. Been a long time- I hope that you are well and still building those wonderful Racks-and-Stands. Thank You for the tip on SAE in Chicago.
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