I apologize in advance for many of you who have heard this before . . . I am a big fan of the sealed bass in the CS3 and 5 series. In fact, Thiel was philosophically committed to sealed bass in its upper models, while allowing reflex bass in its lesser models with the cost savings reflected in the lower sell prices. The main advantage I see in sealed bass (whether equalized or not) is the phase / time coherence all the way down to the low limit, and then 12dB/octave to subsonics. That is radically different from reflex bass which attenuates the woofer at 24dB at its bottom and the port at 24dB at its bottom and top rolloffs. That puts the foundational deep bass a full wavelength behind the upper frequencies. That's 20+ feet, depending on actual tuned frequency. Philosophically that runs contrary to Thiel's committment to wavefront integrity.
When that direction was coming to be in the 3.6, the mood was more relating to what others' products (even with 6-figure prices) were getting away with. Some of us are more sensitive to the philosophical integrity, and others notice the sonic discontinuity of reflex bass. Note that Thiel reflex bass is executed as well as I've heard it. Look at the clean graphs and the tight tuning. But . . . it's still not the real thing.
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duramax747
2nd- that is quite a sweet collection of Thiel loudspeakers. Nice score! on model CS 1.6
I look forward in learning more about your Musical tastes and gear in the Test Room.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the early adopter/roll-out on Models CS1 - CS 3/3.5 loudspeakers.
It must be pretty cool to discover fans and owners of CS1 and CS2 speakers, after all of these years. Keep up the excellent R&D.
Happy Listening!
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@duramax747 ,
A pair of CS 3.7 are on my list to purchase. They have to be in very good condition and within a reasonable driving distance for me to purchase as shipping is not an option with the high risk of damage.
With that said, as upgrades are being made I can test what Tom mentioned on a pair that I hope to get and can report back.
Please do report back on this when and if. Excellent news. Thank you.
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Speaking of fans my Music Fan reduces speaker baffle and room boundary effects. Makes for more focus within a larger soundstage. Bass has greater articulation like applying a giant comb.
I would expect Doug and Tom’s film approach could've be applied to room surfaces as well as many different brands of speaker baffles. Congratulations to Team Thiel and all their cooperative and diligent work!
I am working on an applied formula that has a negative Poissons ratio and when applied to surfaces reduces their shear velocity. The closer a material’s shear velocity is to the speed of sound is in air the better the transfer of musical energy. TomD
Congratulations to Team Thiel!
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tmsrdg
Good to see you here today.
Happy Listening!
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theaudiotweak
Good to see you here today. Thank You for your contributions and Audio tweaks.
Interesting work on improving musical energy. Keep up the excellent R&D.
Happy Listening!
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pwerahera
PM (email) sent. Happy Listening!
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All -
over on U.S. Audiomart there are a pair of 3.6 loudspeakers PLUS a spare OEM tweeter. Baltimore/Towson area. I hope these loudspeakers find the next good home.
Happy Listening!
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I'm listening to my Viewpoints through my Dragonfly red and Creek 5350 SE and it's so great. Not good, great. Hardly anyone gets this, appreciate it.
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jon_5912
I will 2nd- the Creek 5350 SE. It is an excellent Amp, sonic match for Thiel speakers.
Happy Listening!
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Hey all, wondering if anyone could provide any insight to an issue I'm having with a pair of Thiel CS 2.2's I'm working on for somebody.
The woofer in one of them just won't stop farting/bottoming out.
They're both OEM woofers and I have an OEM replacement and it does the same thing as the old driver.
I don't know if they have different max power handling capabilities but that is what it sounds like.
There are no tears from the cone to the spider, the voice coil isn't rubbing, there's no sag in either driver, they test within spec, and they sound fine at low volume.
30Hz tone test makes this ghastly flapping sound, and turning anything with heavier bass on causes this to happen. Meanwhile; the other speaker sounds great at all volumes.
I've already repaired the surrounds on the passive radiator and nothing is rattling in these rock solid cabinets.
I'm at a loss, anybody have any ideas?
Could this be a crossover issue?
Thank you!
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Is the test tone being played by a vinyl record?
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caseywkc
Welcome! Good to see you here today. There are a few fans/owners of CS 2.2 on The Panel. Stay tuned until one of our experts chimes in to address your query.
I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening!
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caseywkc - you have ruled out the woofer. Have you tended to the inner passive surround? There's an outer and inner surround.
Here goes a strange and wonderful exploration. I've used my pair of 2.2s as workhorses since 1990 and conducted my early Thiel Renaissance explorations on them. The problem you describe has been considered a design limit since their introduction- although your symptoms may be worse than typical.
'Your' problem actually happens on some other Thiel models, but the 2.2 is the worse. The root cause is electrical field interactions between the woofe, the crossover and/or the hookup wire. Taking the XO out of the cabinet and/or moving it to the cabinet bottom, and/or attaching the hookup wire to the cabinet fixes it. The simplest element of the problem is a feed wire vibrating against the cabinet or driver. But your case sounds more dramatic than a simple wire buzz.
Troubleshooting this problem led me to a systemic improvement applicable to all models, which I call 'Serpentine Feed'. We eliminate potential bucking fields caused by feeding and tapping XO circuits on the same side of the XO panel. By feeding from the back and tapping from the front, fields always blend rather than buck. The improvement is not subtle. I go further in my new XO layout to leave considerably more space around components for more propagation field management. A random element is that reversing feed direction or orienting a coil 180° can fix 'it'.
I don't have a specific 'fix prescription' for your problem, but this is the nature of the riddle. Feel free to contact me privately for further coaching.
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I'll throw this out there as a possibility , you might have a cabinet leak .
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tomthiel
Thank you for offering your expertise on this matter. No doubt, you know model CS 2.2 intimately. I hope that you are well this August night.
Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
Thank you for offering a different perspective regarding Cabinet leak. Interesting and hopefully not applicable in caseywkc loudspeaker.
Happy Listening!
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Cabinet leak is a good idea. External is unlikely unless there has been cabinet damage. Loose driver screws could cause a leak. Also between the large/woofer enclosure and the 6" midrange tube enclosure. Check that by pressing the midrange and seeing if the woofer / passive radiator move.
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I don't know if latex caulking was used on the 2.2 but if you find a leak you will have to remove it and then reseal it .
Also I would suggest placing the speaker on it's back with the speakers facing up , this will allow you to see if there is a large or small leak .
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Tom Thiel did you or your brother Jim ever study or observe any benefit of the structural placement of driver's or port tubes as they relate to laminar flow inside of a speaker cabinet. Are there any published studies on turbulence generated by internal cabinet shape or attached support obstacles? TomD
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theaudiotweak - Tom, I don't remember ever studying port position. When we were developing our knowledge base, the opinions, even among the academic / gurus was wide and varied and often contradictory. We found that ports placed near boundaries, such as a baffle corner, exhibited more turbulence evidenced by misbehavior in its upper rollout. Best results were with the port placed as close as practical to the woofer, with no insulation between them. The biggest deal turned out to me the port terminations. Roundover entry and exit works well. Take a look at the SCS4 and its graphed performance. Two ports reduce flow to half. The external opening is a tractrix horn and the internal tube gains diameter going toward its inside terminus. I've never seen a quieter port.
Rob says that geometry was Jim's original work.
My work with Doug has further reduced turbulence by addressing surface propagation boundary effects. The improvements are significant.
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Thanks Tom.
I was thinking of the internal shape of the cabinet and bracing as well as the shape that is displaced by any port of any shape or length Those right angles of corners, braces and oddly shaped ports must generate turbulence and interference and blowback that impede airflow of the intended cone motion. Maybe I will make a clear top panel and place a smoke device inside so I can view the turbulence generated by all the contained boundaries. A passive radiator or two maybe the cleaner way to travel especially inside a poured or cast cabinet. TomD
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What are your thoughts on the Thiel CS7 speakers? There are a pair near me and I would sell my CS3.6 to get the CS7. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
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As with all Thiel products, the first generation breaks ground and the next generation(s) add refinement. I can speak directly to the CS7 which went into production at the end of my tenure. Its primary problem is its concrete baffle - an error in my assessment. Concrete shrinks and eventually cracks, most notably at the sides of the woofer and/or passive radiator. That can be repaired with epoxy. The 7.2 switched to a mineral/polymer casting without the shrinkage problem.
The biggest performance difference is the next-gen drivers in the 7.2. Those years from 1994 to 2000 showed significant progress in motor and diaphram design. The 7.2 tweeter (if memory serves) has 20dB more dynamic range than the 7 tweeter. (Lessons learned developing the CS6 which came after the CS7.) The other drivers also sported enhanced motor shunts and driver geometries that added significant refinement.
Rob says that most of the CS7s were field upgraded to 7.2 drivers and XO tweaks while retaining the CS7 cabinet as-is. Broken baffles were sometimes factory swapped to CS7.2 baffles.
I have a pair of CS7.1s - 7.2 drivers and XOs in a CS7 / concrete baffle cabinet - with cracks that don't bother me. I directly compared the 7 vs 7.2 at Rob's CSS in 2012 and reported that the 7.2 is cleaner / more pristine and dynamic. The CS7 has an 'easier', more laid-back presentation. I'm told the frequency and phase responses are virtually identical. The upgrade is in the faster, more dynamic, more linear driver response of the CS7.2 drivers.
I would suggest that the CS7 should sell for significantly less than the 7.2 on the used market. FYI: there were around 1000 pair of 7s and 2500 pair of 7.2s sold which fits the general pattern of next-gen sales increase ratio.
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tomthiel
Thank You for the Thiel history lesson on CS7 loudspeakers.
Happy Listening!
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velocityofhue
Thank You for the CS7 follow up and link.
Happy Listening!
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Thank you for the info about the CS7!
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Tom D - theaudiotweaktheaudiotweak
All the factors you mention led us away from ports except for small / inexpensive speakers. A passive radiator obviates most of the problems you cite. For those ported models, my new work introduces both surface flow and film resonators to make the port very much more ideal. The difference is significant. Those technologies are suitable for any / all ported speakers. I hope to have beta-ready trial kits this year.
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biannuzzi22
Keep us posted if you purchase the CS7 loudspeakers.
Happy Listening!
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There currently a pair of CS3.6 at Audiogon. Quite tempting.
Could anyone compared the CS3.6 to CS3.7? I've heard the earlier Thiel tends to sound a little bright.
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andy2
Good to see you again. Stay tuned until one of the Panel's CS 3.6 & CS 3.7 speaker experts chimes in to address your query.
What Gear is in your current set-up?
Happy Listening!
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What Gear is in your current set-up?
DAC: Ayre QB9
Pre: Pass Labs X10
Amp: Sim Audio W7
Speakers: Home made
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andy2
Very nice System! A pair of Thiel loudspeakers will fit quite well. Keep me posted on your purchase decision.
Happy Listening!
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@andy2 CS 3.7s tend to be bright, in my experience poweful tube amps like VAC or Jadis is what works best for them.
I have tried many different SS amps in the past few years and there was always something missing with my 3.7s.
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Must have high quality upstream electronics. I've listened to Thiel CS6 at a friends w/classe mono blocks and it sounded bright. Room setup & speaker placement could have been partly to blame.
My CS2.4 Speakers sounded bright before I got BAT VK-600 @ 300w per channel.
Even recently my new PASS X150.8 amp isn't as enjoyable to hear as the Balanced Audio Technology. Something about not only the high frequency but a glorious sweet sounding full midrange. The pass is a very fine amplifier and does have its own secret sauce but with another speaker perhaps...
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velocityofhue
Thank You for citing B.A.T. VK-600 & CS 2.4 loudspeakers. While I have not heard B.A.T. products, I can vouch for the Pass Labs X150.8 power amp and CS 2.4 speakers.
Happy Listening!
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thieliste
Thank You for citing Jadis and VAC tubed gear for CS 3.7 loudspeaker. Add P.S. Audio to the list as well.
Happy Listening!
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Regarding amps for the 3.7's which i have owned since 2018, i have had great success with the PS Audio BHK amps (both stereo and then mono blocks), and a Coda 16. I wrote about this preamp earlier, but the introduction of the BAT VK-80 completely transformed the sound of my system. i greatly prefer it over the three previous preamps (Pass, PS, Coda) that i had been using. https://balancedaudio.net/vk-80-preamp
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Per unsound above and along with the cs3.6 and cs3.7s, Thiel cs5, cs5i, cs6, cs7, and cs7.2 impedance loads are down around 2-3 ohms and demand a powerful amp. Yes there are all makes and types of amps but make sure to power your big Thiels properly as you can’t just go buy a new pair anymore. Existing speakers aren’t as numerous and finding original replacement parts is more challenging.
Be careful with your cs2.3 and cs2.4s as well for the same reasons.
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unsound,
Good point. When I went to Lexington, Thiel had the Krell FPB 700cx powering a pair of CS 7.2. Could Pass 250.8 amps be used? Sure. Will they have the dynamic headroom or slam the larger amp has? No way.
ronkent,
Glad to hear you are enjoying your VK-80. I’m seriouisly considering a VK-90 myself as BAT gear mates well with Thiel.
velocityofhue,
Great amp for your CS 2.4
Years ago I was in Nashville and stopped into a Thiel dealer. they had the CS 7.2 on display mated with Mac 1kw amps.
I sat and listened to the dealers arraged playlist. After a few tracks I asked if they would mind if I went to my vehicle to retrieve a few cd’s I had that I’d like to listen too. They said "sure"
I gave them the cd and they asked which track and I said just hit play as it doesnt matter. As it started to play I turned up the volume at a decent volume to fill the room. I saw a nervous look on saleman’s face as the red clipping light started to flash. Shortly after I ended the audition and excused myself and thanked them for the opportunity to listen.
Immediately after leaving the store I jumped on I-75 to Lexington where I heard the same CS7.2 with the Krell FPB 700cx amp. I thought I was listning to a different speaker it was so different. The authority the speakers possessed with a rock solid bottom end with no grain or grit on top was ear opening.
My point. If I would have left my first experience regarding Thiel speakers with that audition in Nashville I would have never bought Thiel speakers. When I heard what the right amp could do it was what the man himself, Jim Thiel, wanted his lesteners to hear.
Now I have a stable of Thiel speakers that I can switch out any given day because of Thiel selecting the right amp for their speakers.
Amps matter.
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duramax747
Nice points all around. Not every Audiophile can set-up the infrastructure for a Krell power amp. Some models require more planning than others. I look forward to meeting you in the future.
Happy Listening!
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Hi All! I will be selling a pair of CS3.6 through the Music Room in September. They are Birds Eye maple. If anyone is interested in the Colorado area, let me know.
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