Thiel Owners

tomthiel
I would be very much interested in the use of an Oppo player togehter with an external DAC with HDMI input (in my case a Brystan BDA 3). Are you by any chance trying to do the same and make use of the HDMI output of the Oppo to route the DSD64-signal to an external DAC?
I see many people on the web who say SACD doesn't make much sense for stereo systems (but only for multi channel..), but I want to try myself...

lloydviii

Good to see you today. Until Tom addresses your query, the Oppo/Bryston DAC (BDA3) is the most popular combination that I see across other Audio forums.

Audiophiles really like this pairing of excellent brands. SACD, is great for multi-channel as well as 2-Channel musical enjoyment.

Happy Listening!

lloydviii

2nd Note;

there is a dedicated BDA-3 thread over on Audio Circle. Click Circles, then Bryston Limited thread, search for BDA-3 heading. Moderated by James Tanner of Bryston fame and very informative. This DAC won DAC-of-the-Year 2022.

Happy Listening!

lloydviii - I have not yet used the OPPO as a transport, but I plan to run a comparison when I collect the components in a worthy playback system, later in the spring.

So far, so good in the quality of playback from the Oppo’s analog outputs. Best I’ve had; an obvious upgrade from the Sony S9000ES, which is my only prior reference.

My intent was to have Bill Thalmann of Music Technology to provide this signature piece. He believes in it and I believe in him. I recognize that perspective as out of the ordinary, but it’s how I roll. This deck is his final iteration and I am honored to have it.

He and I chose this platform among others. The 105 has more connectivity and a few internals that Bill preferred to the 205. And the Darbee stuff was expendable because his work removed all the existing analog circuitry. This particular unit came from The Music Room which re-sells the units that PS Audio takes on upgrade trade for their own units. BTW: this Oppo deck was used in PS’s decks until they stopped production.

Following is an excerpt from Bill’s correspondence describing what he has done to the unit. He has applied his life skills including his prior career and close involvement with Conrad Johnson toward making his version of digital done right.

I will report when I’ve done some comparisons between his DAC and the Benchmark DAC3.

Bill Thalmann says:

The Oppo 105 uses an ESS SABRE DAC chip, which was SOTA at the time. ESS has come out with a few newer DACs since then, but none are really different in performance. The sound of a disc player still depends primarily on the design of the analog output circuitry and the type and amount of digital jitter. My upgrade squarely addresses both issues.

I’ve never compared it directly to a Benchmark DAC. My primary reference when I did this was my Oracle Mk VI turntable with an SME Series 300 arm and a Soundsmith Aida cartridge through a CJ Premier 15 (all teflon upgraded) phono preamp. While I still think the all analog setup had a slight edge with regard to sound quality, the difference was, IMHO, very, very slight. I am very interested in getting feedback from you even though, at this point, it’s somewhat academic to me as I have no plans to build any more of these.

I don’t have specs on the upgrade beyond frequency response (flat to 50k – intentionally rolled off above that) and subjective testing for the most part with regards to noise and rise time.

and more:

Hope you get lots of good listening from the Oppo.  Very interested in hearing what you think of it once it’s had a chance to burn in. 

Basically, I built two discrete power supplies (each with their own power transformer). One provides regulated 35V to run the discrete JFET analog amp/filter and the other an EXTREMELY low noise 3.3v power supply to power an 80 MHz very low jitter clock module for the DAC section. The clock frequency is higher than Oppo used, but is optimized for audio.  Oppo evidently optimized for video performance.

The 3.3V supply is as clean as a battery, and may be cleaner, and its output filter is a 1 Farad cap. It is highly regulated using IC’s from Maxxim designed specifically for clock supplies.

I take the signal directly from the DAC chip and feed it into my amp/filter board where the DAC output current is converted to voltage, amplified and filtered (at around 50 MHz) and fed directly to the 2-channel output jacks of the player

That’s it in a nutshell.

Bill

tomthiel

Thank You for sharing Bill's impressions and thoughts on the Oppo 105 Player.

A very interesting build and upgrade over stock. There is something to be said for "modding" a CD/SACD player even in 2023.

Upon release, the Sony S9000ES player was Reference quality in a $1500 package. I remember hearing this player in the late 1990's just prior to the

State of the Art SCD-1. Back then Sony / Sony ES over-built their gear with great Pride. You are fortunate to have owned both machines.

Happy Listening!

The 9000 is a keeper for myself or a friend. I have compared the internal DACs for CD conversion of the Benchmark DAC3, Sony SCD-1 and Sony 9000. The Benchmark betters the Sonys, but the comparison is not embarrassing. In all cases the better player has deeper and firmer bass and is quieter / less jittery overall.

Thanks for these equipment leads and for pointing me to Bill T. I had lost track of him after CJ where he and I had the 'same' job - manufacturing system developer, design for manufacturability, and all those 'do it' aspects of product developmemt - each of us for our company's first two decades.

tomthiel

My pleasure. Good to read that everything is going well for you. The Panel will be interested to learn of the Benchmark DAC3 / Oppo combination. A Bryston BDA3 may have stiff competition soon. We have plenty of Benchmark and Bryston fans/owners here. I love a fruitful shoot-out.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel and jafant
Thank you very much for your comments on the Oppo player. I am very much looking forward to the details of your comparison between using it as a transport and with DAC. Myself I would of course have to make do with a normal Oppo, without the upgrade you described, which certainly takes it to a new level. Since the drive in the 105 and the less expensive 103 are apparently the same, I would go for the 103 to use as a transport. Let's see. 

Lloydviii - consider that 105s are younger than 103s. These things do wear out. And compare the connectivity options. The 105 may be the swiss army knife of players. You won't need the Darbee upgrade for use as a transport and plain non-D 105s are a bargain. The Music Room is where I would start asking and looking. TT

lloydviii

My pleasure to offer an opinion on Digital players. The CD and SACD are not going away anytime soon.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Good to see you here today. Once you have all of your Gear in place, I am looking forward to the Playlist.

Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All

I'm once again listening to my <$1,000 Viewpoints and enjoying them beyond what seems right.  So many people passed up this opportunity.  What's the matter with you?

You can't really appreciate this on other speakers.  It's a real problem.  This is so much better than whatever else it out there.  It's so much better.

@jon_5912 

I'm hoping that you're just kidding. You must be.

jon_5912

Good to read about another fan and owner of Viewpoints. These are cool speakers in form and function.

Happy Listening!

Greeting All,

Started reading this thread skipping to January 2018 to present. Having viewed Tom, Beatle, Halco, marqmike and others comments and pictures, my sincere gratitude to all for the great discussion. It’s very enjoyable reading and learning as a CS2.4 owner.

A local audio store, Audioport, introduced me to the 2.4 with Classe Delta back in the early 2000’s. More that could be shared but after several years of enjoying the current setup, with a few changes along the way, it’s time to update. The evolution of this thread with its 2.4 crossover development has drawn the mind multiple directions landing on taking it step by step and a small journey. Each step trying to understand, by ear, what improves and what may be less desirable.

Since 2018, 2.4 specific discussion seemed to touch on:

• Original crossover source (i.e. Lexington, FSB)
• Coax and woofer capacitors, resistors, inductors
• Internal wiring
• Binding posts
• Cabinet considerations such as bracing and fill materials (i.e. fiber, wool)
• External vs internal crossover placement
• Build recommendations such as Masonite, component placement/alignment, and thermal considerations (i.e bluetack)
• Driver source and capabilities

There will be a document posted with pictures and information in case anyone has interest. Hopefully something can be contributed to the discussion. I am open to trying a new path or two along the way.

Progress to date:

1. CS2.4 Serial Numbers 4021 and 4022 original crossovers are exactly the same as marqmikes (https://tinyurl.com/ffcerraa).
2. After a quick exchange with Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service, a SE upgrade was purchased and installed. Break-in is in progress and will share thoughts in the next week.

Next:

• Mills MRA-12 resistors have arrived. The 4 Ohm is Vishay Mills MRA-12. The 16 Ohm will be parallel 8 Ohm Mills. This change seemed universally agreed on with the option to use Path. As a value buyer and understanding of my listening abilities, using Path resistors would take convincing.
• Move to Masonite? Seems inevitable with future growth. Could save the originals with SE capacitors if someone was interested in them when appropriate to let them go.
• More to come….

anzen

Welcome! Good to see you today. Always great to meet another fan and owner of CS 2.4 loudspeakers. Thank you for the kind words, and citing your Serial Numbers. Excellent! Low numbered speakers. Equally, great to read about DIY capabilities , in part to Rob at CSS. The SE version is very special indeed.

Over time, your Ears will be reward. I look forward in reading more about Musical tastes and System.

Happy Listening!

@anzen 

2 x 8 ohm resistors in parallel do not = 16 ohms 

use resistors in parallel calculator at sengpielaudio.com/calculator-parallel.htm

The closest uses a 39 and a 27 ohm resistor and luckily Mills makes those values. 

Remember to measure the capacitors that you are replacing since space is limited.

Good Luck 

anzen - welcome. There is quite a bit to unpack. I’ll make a brief overview here as a bit of an update of work in process. All of our work is well beyond the SE version. The SE substituted only 2 feed caps, changing nothing else. That ClarityCapSA was their state of the art about 20 years ago. Major improvements have ensued. Extensive comparisons have landed on CC’s CSA with copper end caps - Purity is even better, plus a super bypass can be paralleled for greater definition. RTX or Duelund .01 to .1uF where it matters.

Your coils look good. Keep them. Foil coils would change other parameters and would require redesign. Resistors are worth replacing. Mills in series feeds, others can be Dayton precision 10 watt or their 20 watt (hollow tube) vairety if values available. (from Parts Express).

Regarding boards, it’s not so simple. Your coil values are tweaked for PCB mounting. If you revert to P-to-Point, slightly different coil values are required. Also we’ve learned that one-sided wiring of masonite P-t-P is sub-optimal. So, an entirely new layout scheme is required with edge mounting rather than stock flat mounting of the boards.

I am pleased to be working with duramax747 on CS2.4s as a live developmet project. But whatever comes of that, your largest consideration is your budget. You could responsibly spend $thousands or $ hundreds depending on the scope of your choices.

Send me a PM if you wish.

And on a bright note to all: remember those custom Clarity and Purity caps from last year? They’re scheduled for delivery this week after an odyssey of delays.

Hi @jafant , appreciate the warm welcome and you have been moderating a great topic!  Make any changes to your 2.4 SE's?  I'll share more on musical tastes and system in the next few evenings after work.

Thanks for the correction @vair68robert!  I should have said series (Rt = R1+Rn) vs parallel with just 2 resistors as the site you link pointed out Rt = R1*R2/(R1+R2).  You are right about capacitor sizes which was reenforced looking at @beetlemania crossover pictures.  The switch to Masonite seemed to be required at some point for film capacitors and perhaps even for the resistor switch using the 2 resistors you kindly provided or the 2x8ohm I have.  As @tomthiel said, is "not so simple" and my mind hasn't quite fully realized yet.  Quite a lot to learn. 

Hi @tomthiel, I appreciate the information and clarity.  The project with duramax747 will certainly be of interest as I don't have a clear understanding of the desired end scope.  The new layout scheme, ClarityCap PUR and more learnings along the way would be good to know before going too much farther with the build.  

Frankly, my technical knowledge is being relearned from a job building magnetic card readers for video game arcades back in college 25+ years ago, so it is rusty but starting to comeback and expand.  Part of going with ClarityCap SA capacitors from Rob to get the crossovers in hand and study the existing design beyond photos and documents.  It was a straight forward update vs CSA (i.e. 27uf+1uf, unknown size constraints). Good learning experience plus, out of pure curiosity, I wanted hear what the SE model might have sounded like.  Not too logical from a project perspective though the SE sound has been enjoyable.

Audiogon might have a minimum requirement for sending a PM, so either I missed how it's done or needs to be enabled.  Will send one when that is figured out. It's been many years since being on a forum.

anzen

My pleasure to be of service. Where are you located?

No, my SE are stock. I would not mind finding a donor pair for Tom’s upgrade path.

The stock CS2.4 is a real Honey.  Curiously, I had to have a taste of the SE.

Once heard, there was no retreat!  I was very fortunate to have heard pair 50/51. I was fully prepared to purchase those at full Retail, but the owner did not want to sell.  I tried.

Happy Listening!

Jafant,

What are your thoughts on the red stained birds eye maple finish on the CS 2.4SE?

My understanding on the serial # is it does not matter how low the number is as the  internal xover boards are the same as the higher numbered CS 2.4. You mentioned 50/51 so didnt know if you were aware of that. 

duramax747

Good to see you here today. Thank You for the internal Boards clarification.

The Red Stain Birds Eye maple finish is stunning! Just gorgeous and totally matched the “personality “ of the SE.  The speaker is quite attractive perched on Outriggers. I am proud to own such a Loudspeaker.

Happy Listening!

I wish there were other choices like other Thiel's but I guess thats what makes them distinctively an SE. 

Of all the speakers ever made, this speaker comes to the forefront as an incredible bargin for the level of musical enjoyment it puts out. 

Wonder what this would sound like with a no limit approach to upgrades. 

duramax747

I concur. The SE is both, distinguished and distinctive. Even at full MSRP an unsurpassed Value.  Many Thanks for our DIY guys here as they offer approaches to unlimited Upgrades. 
 

I would certainly like to see you all talk about caps and resistors pricing.

Let’s take it pass all limitation.

Happy Listening!

Here's what I've pieced together about the 2.4SE. We didn't know that Jim was dying, but he did, and wanted to memorialize this model as close to his heart. It was originally intended as all-cosmetic. He loved that bright red birdseye maple, and added the outriggers, some other touches and his signature. The crossover upgrade was possibly an after-thought, or nearly so. The whole gang used that idea as an opportunity to compare and contrast XO components and they settled on the ClarityCap SAs (CC's then state of the art.) I suspect those gold bolts are non-magnetic. Anybody know?

I believe the signature run was 150 pair. Thiel's MO would be to have made all those cabinets as a batch, but the crossovers would be made as needed. They were assigned their own set of serial numbers which would go from 1 to 300. I am speculating these details, but haven't found direct competing evidence.

It seems from our direct experience, that the crossovers migrated from early numbers being point to point on masonite and later units being various generations of Chinese components on printed circuit boards. Varying levels of quality. Also, Rob has supplied SE upgrade kits for non-SE cabinets which would have retained their original serial numbers. I have seen an early pair of SEs with classic Thiel parts made very well, and later SEs with shoddy coils and parts quality I found to sound harsher. So, they're not all created equal.

I'll add that my further work with some of you has gone further. That work is not yet ready for prime time, but progress is being made.

It's been a long time since Beetlemania reported in these pages his complete, systematic upgrade where every XO component was eventually changed including hookup wire. JA might remember the pages of his reports.

@roxy54  It's hyperbole but not kidding.  It's my limited experience, I know it's not comprehensive.

jafant,

Well I'm game. I'm willing to take the SE to where Tom believes it can go. Outboards, internal wiring, top level caps and resistors, binding posts, internal cabinet mods if needed. If there was a way to eliminate the binding posts I would go that route.

Maybe a pigtail coming out of the 2.4 SE and hardwired/soldered into outboard. I'd desolder it if I need to move in future. Those brass binding post add a lot of harshness. Giving up the convenience of binding post to have a more purist approach by eliminating them is worth it to me and you get a sonic upgrade that costs nothing. 

I've got some GR Electra Tube Connectors coming. Seems like the best I've seen.

Tom,

At first look I thought they where a brass cylinder. then realized they were copper I watched the video. This would seem a much better option than any binding post out there. 

On 2.4 (SE) you would need 3 per speaker for each driver. 

If members here have never listened to a speaker without binding post and wired directly they will be surprised. 

Now you have me thinking from  output of amp to input of outboard xover doing the same thing which would eliminate amp binding post and input of crossover. It would also eliminate speaker cable spades/banana connections. 

Your thoughts Tom?

duramax747

Outstanding! I look forward to your passion and support for model CS 2.4SE.

Additionally, I would like to pick up a pair of CS 2.7 speakers. The 3.7 is too large for my space.  Great to have you on The Panel!

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

As always, your impressions and thoughts on CS 2.4SE read correct. I will check back to the beginning of XO upgrades per beetlemania ‘s contributions.  There are a few other Panel members who modded their 2.4 speakers as well.

Happy Listening!

Duramax - indeed the connector is paramount to performance. I've taken a very deep dive into signal propagation, and know there is much confusion and lack of insight in the arena. The wire guys have paid good attention to metal purity and dielectric characteristics, but still haven't settled on a 'best' geometry. I continue to investigate that aspect (with some tangible success). What seems to be nearly ignored is the termination which plays a huge part in proper propagation through the signal chain.

Consider the signal path as like a water-slide. As an example, consider the end of the slide to meet a spade connector. Smooth flow turns to whitewater. Independent of metal purity, gauge/ampacity/ etc.the turbulence has significant negative effects.  I am not overstating, and you are correct that listeners would be astonished.

For practical considerations I want to disconnect the amp and the speaker. Presuming an outboard crossover, we can attach the input and output pigtails to the crossover and have good user interface. At the amp end I strongly recommend locking banana plugs due to their inline arrangement of field propagation. Of course your idea of direct solder connections could be better. But I posit that the geometry of that soldered connection is critical. Axial, left-lay twist is the correct way.

At the outboard XO we can manage inputs from one or multiple amps with inline soldered connections. Same on the output. Note that I had some custom bolts made in 6-9s copper which I have now abandoned due to the propagation disturbances we are discussing here. I replaced those with thin-wall copper tubing with wires fed into each end, touching in the middle and soldered at the entries. That out-performs any post I have tried. GR's Electra takes that idea up a few notches with purer copper, thinner walls, and the convenience of unplugging.

Note that solder per se is not an ultimate solution. Heat disrupts the molecular structure and metals dis-similarity is less than perfect. In summary, I consider the roughly $12 / connection to be funds well spent. 

Note that the 2.4 is electrically a two-way; the mid to tweeter crossover is visco-elastic / mechanical. So we'll need two pairs per channel which will cost around $50 / channel. That's a lot more than nothing, but less than one typical upgraded capacitor. The proof will be in the listening, but there is a lot to like here.

For your straight-through solder proposal, you might consider the copper tubing idea at the speaker inputs. I plan to re-fit my amps with Electra outputs.

Hi All,

I would like to update on my Thiel CS7.2 fitting Gaia I Floor standing.

When I opened the box, Gaia I comes with thread adaptors for the 3 most common thread sizes which fit the majority of speakers BUT not for Thiel Speakers. Anyway, I can request for the Threads fitting to Thiel Speaker, which I need to request from distributor. It take more than 1-2 months and I can’t wait for it.

Therefore, I had an idea to create custom ’Outrigger’ that can fit my speaker.

As you know, I have Audia Flight ST4+ST1 Power and Pre Amp. They also recently introduce hi-end floor stand speakers to the market using name ’Alare Labs’. I quite admire their products and designs. I used their design.

I started measuring the distance between each spike and draw the design manually. I brought the design to lathe factory near by and explained my design.

1 week later, I went and picked up the outriggers and test fit to the speaker. They are perfectly fit.

I used Galvanic flat black Painting and spray. So, they become black.

Here is some pictures that I fitted the Gaia I to Thiel CS 7.2 Speakers. Enjoy!!

Give me 1-2 weeks to listen and I will give you again Full review on the sound impact.

Gaia I ISOAcoutics unboxed

Finish Outrigger unpainted with designs

Outrigger test fitting

Gaia I install on the painted

Fitting into Thiel Speakers

Thiel Speaker on Outriggers with my system

Close-up view of outriggers on GAIA I

jafant,

The 2.7 is a gem also. The 2.4 and 2.7 sound very different. So having both is a great option if you can get two separate rooms fitted. 

Tom,

I was referencing "cost nothing" doing the soldering/pigtail not the Electra outputs. 

The Electra ad an obvious cost especially if used at outboard and amps. 

bas79

We have the same finish on our CS 7.2. Glad you figured out a platform for them.

When I get the time I also will be designing and manufacturing a speaker base for them.

Thanks for sharing everyone.  

Hi jafant - Here is a post that might be worth reviewing: Beetlemania 2019 Summary

He also posted "Relevant posts begin January or February, 2018. I made my final changes about one year later." (Link)

Should provide some reference to further search.

 bas79

Thank you for the update. Good to read  about another fan and owner of Audia Flight. What cables/cords are you enjoying?

Happy Listening!

Duramax - How would you characterize the sonic differences between the 2.4 and 2.7? Anyone else can also chime in too. Thanks.

Tom, 

Like most things there are trade offs. 

The 2.7 are more transparent and dynamic. 

The 2.4 are more full bodied in comparison. 

I used different amp on each speaker as they brought a different sonic flavor.

My belief is investring in the 2.4 (SE) i would have no need to listen to the 2.7.

I guess thats a double edged sword as if I did that to 2.7 I could say the same thing. 

anzen

Beetle stated pretty early on, 2018 looks correct.

Happy Listening!

bas79 - Looks very nice! From the photos, it looks like a production or aftermarket outrigger. Certainly interested in your follow-up regarding the sound.

Intriguing name for paint "Galvanic flat black Painting and spray"

Oxford definition for Galvanic:

1. relating to or involving electric currents produced by chemical action.

2. sudden and dramatic.

Assuming the second is more is the intent 🙂

Searching "Electra Cable Tube Connectors" results in interesting installation and binding post comparison videos. The Gentleman in the videos, who perhaps is the designer, seemed to have thought this through, from ease of installation to showing value with this design, and reasonable price point. Haven’t found measurements (yet) which some would gravitate to alone for sales. Something to further research tonight. Wonder if that design could be tweaked for other uses, i.e. a simplified wire connector with locking mechanisms to add to his patent portfolio.

@roxy54 it seems like you should have some sort of response.  If you say nothing and wander off you'll be assumed slow.  Is that what you want?

@jon_5912 

I'm not sure of what you mean by "slow", but I really had nothing more to say. You made a very exaggerated statement and I commented on it. You then explained that it was hyperbole, which I certainly agree with.

@anzen

I don't have a 2.4 so I have to ask the question , does the current 16 ohm resistor have a 20 watt  rating ?  because the wattage is added in parallel but not in series .

Good Luck

Regarding CS2.4 resistors. As I've mentioned, I have identified thermal dissipation and stability as worthy of attention. Doubling in parallel is a good way to do that.

However that 16 ohm resistor does not need a higher value, being in series with a capacitor that blocks low frequency current flow.

Resistors that are worthy of attention include: Woofer R1 - 4 ohm, and R2 - 2 ohm.

Coax R5 - 30 ohm, and R6- 3 ohm. Those high-current resistors are most worthy of Mills (etc.) upgrade since current flow induces noise and heat induces instability.

vair68robert - Adding a few 2.4 images for reference....hope they work and not too obnoxious. 

16 ohm 10w resistor on 2.4 coax crossover:

Mills MRA12 8 ohm purchased for 2.4 upgrade.  Also have the 2, 3, 4 and 30 ohm resistors.

What my production coax crossover looked like before installing SE upgrade kit from Rob G.

Didn't find much more constructive information on the GR Electra tube connectors beyond a few reviews and GR literature.  Ran across a Smiths Connector with "Hyperboloid Contact Technology" that has similarities to the Electra tube. Just had a quick glance and didn't know whether it would be even close to applicable here. Female side was gold plated brass and male side Tellurium copper with crimp. 

Happy Friday! All

anzen

Excellent photos as above.

Happy Listening!

St. Patrick ‘s Day. All