dhoff01
Thank You for the update. How do you like the synergy between Accuphase and Ayre?
Happy Listening!
Thank You for the update. How do you like the synergy between Accuphase and Ayre?
Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,744 responses Add your response
dhoff01 Good to see you again. Yes, it has been awhile since I have seen a post by you. Impressive that you switched away from the Cary SLP-05. That particular pre-amp is one of the very best, very popular amongst Audiophiles. While I have never heard the SLP05, I can certainly understand your change to the Ayre Twenty Series- seriously good gear. What other gear including rounds out your system currently? Hope that you are well and preparing for Summer. Happy Listening! |
I second thieliste - Ayre matches quite well with Thiel. My local dealer always paired his Thiel 3.7s with an all-Ayre setup and it sounded fantastic. I too have many Ayre components in my system, including a recent change from my Cary SLP-05 to the Ayre KX5 twenty preamp. My 3.7s have never sounded better. Been awhile since I opened this thread. Looks like I have a lot to catch up on! |
Hi guys and hello to you jafant, i hope you guys are doing well it's been a while i haven't posted on this thread.@jafant any evolution on your gear search for your CS2.4SE ?Even though i sold my CS 3.7s early this year because i didn't have the funds to purchase the rest of the gear to make them sing they are still one o my all time favorire speakers and who knows if in the future i have the opportunity the build a system, the CS 3.7s will still be in my mind.Meanwhile i enjoy my great headphone rig which is very convenient when you don't have a dedicated room for speaker system.Cheers. |
Pops - nice to see you. I picked up a pair of 3.6s last year and listened, and said wow. Then I measured it and said wow. Then I looked at the crossover and said wow. The 3.6 in 1992 followed the 1990 2.2. For the 3.6, Jim had delved into finite element analysis to make serious refinements to the driver motors to radically lower distortion - and Vifa loved the collaboration. Lots of that stuff is now in broad use. The 3.6 was the last Thiel product in which I directly participated in the development. After that my work was almost entirely process and capability development for the coming larger products. That tweeter was developed for the CS5 and trickled down to the 2.2 and 3.6. |
ctsooner My 1st audio encounter w/ Vandersteen dates back to 1995. On that date I auditioned the 2ci or 2ce (I never can remember which iteration came first?). Then, there was the 2Ce/Ci Signature models for further improvement. And the 3A Signature for further advancement in presentation and soundstage. This was my strongest contender loudspeaker to assemble my next system either ss or tubed gear to compliment. A fateful audition w/ the Thiel CS 2.4 loudspeaker would change my trajectory forever. The CS 2.4SE provided the icing on a very tasty cake. Done. Happy Listening! |
oblgny I just returned from a quick visit to Manhattan. Today's adventure was about seeing the Beacon Theater, Blue Note Jazz Club and Village Vanguard. Funny thing- there were flyers on the venue billboards dated back to March. Perhaps I can catch a show next month? The city streets were bustling with pedestrians running/walking. Happy Listening! |
JAFant - you asked about future models in the queue. I have concentrated my efforts on the 2.2. Next I will address the 3/ 3.5. My priorities include rescuing models in danger of obsolescence, and the 3/ 3.5 are geriatric. It will be a big challenge in that the tweeter and midrange are no longer available. But the woofers are strong players and built like tanks. Of great interest to me is the textbook sealed second order low rolloff - tight, quick, clean and musical. I hope to pair that with a matching subwoofer for seriously good low bass. |
Jon - the house photo you shared is in Georgetown proper. Our farm was (and still is) halfway between Lexington and Georgetown where they subdivided the farms into 10 acre farmlets around 1900. The farm victorian was built in 1903 and was quite deteriorated when I bought it and over the years restored it to fine fettle. Good place. Horses were my first love, and I bred my daughter's salt-of-the-earth pony to a son of Secretariat for her Pony Club mount. Wildfire spent his lift there, and it spawned an upstart audio company. There's always more back story. |
I'm up in Berlin. Half way between Hartford and New Haven. Live on a pretty lake. As for meeting him, I can't remember, but it was eon's ago. I know it was twice as those were the only times he was up here from what I had been told. Heck, I know I met Paul Klipsch as well as David Hafler and a few other top designers back in the very early 70's. The store in Newington was a very well known one back in the day. It's how I learned about audio. Dad, who didn't make a lot, took me there nad we came home with a modest system of a Pioneer receiver, house made 3 way speakers (that were very good and how stores sold back in the day) and a Garrard TT. I bought my own system in '73 with Bar Mitzvah money. Yamaha YP 211 TT with the top Grado cartridge (Grado was in the store when I made my upgrade from the Garrard that came with it and told them to throw in the cartridge. As most know, those all cost them about the same to make and they had a major uncharge.). I too had the same speakers as Dad had. I rocked out with my drums in the basement while mom complained, lol. Joe, the owner was a named big band director and most of the audio elite would come visit him and he would always let me know who and when. That's why I got to go in the basement and listen to the whole Klipsch line with the Phase Linear and Crown gear with top TT's, but I don't even remember which ones, lol. I got a few of my HS buddy's to purchase systems through Joe's place, even though we had the shlock shops too. Most got the baby Klipsch's (forget the name but they are in the classic line) with their larger Yamaha receivers. Sorry to for the history, lol. I've loved this hobby and the people in it for most of my life. I think it's why I get jaded at times and why I am always open to auditions to keep learning. I know it's hard to believe, but I didn't love Vandersteen's until about 10 years ago when I went to the closest dealer in NJ to buy a new set of Pro Ac's D series and walk out of their knowing I was going to purchase a pair of Treo's once I saved enough. I didn't even want to audition them, which was unlike me, but I was there with family as my cousin was getting married and he lives in Verona. Theil and Vandersteen's are so much alike, but sound so different. I think it's the time alignment etc.. that my ears really appreciate hearing. Both designers to me, are as important to audio as anyone else. |
oblgny My pleasure. I have been in worse circumstances and places during military service. Still, this is my occupation/profession. The hope is that you guys will catch a break for the rest of 2020. If not, the Cavalry, will mobilize again to assist. The locals really support this hospital- no question about it. Strong Work! Good to read that you are enjoying the Belles integrated. Will it reach a sonic match for the 3.5 (your fave Thiel speaker)? Happy Listening! |
obglny Always good to see you here my Brother. Yes, this little section of the Long Island City has been very kind to us. Slowly but surely the local bars and eateries are opening, certainly during lunch hour into the early evening. Not sure about late evening? Agreed, I was informed about the shopping malls- makes sense as L.I. has quite the real estate for it. I will contact you very soon. Is Audio Den open for auditions? Happy Listening! |
In case anyone is interested, today TMR has listed an amberwood pair of Thiel CS 2.2s. Asking $1199 ... Condition 8 out of 10. https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/thiel-cs-2-2-floorstanding-speakers-amberwood-pair-2-2/ |
Didn't know you guys were islanders. I'm up in CT. Would love to meet up when things clear up, lol. I've never really been to Long Island other than Fischers island via boats and JFK, lol. I usually dislike the NYC dealers as everyone has been kind of a dick to me. My buddy Johnny Rutan (Audio Connection) sells the Belles. I love the line. The new Aries Integrated is one of the great buys in all of audio. David knows what he's doing. I can easily see an amp like that on a Theil. That would be a good match I assume. |
Jafant... You’re pretty much smack dab in the heart of central Nassau County’s major shopping district. Back in the day, within walking distance of where you’re working, there was Audio Exchange in the mall, a Crazy Eddie about three miles east of you, and a Rabson’s Audio as well if I’m not mistaken. And by the way, thanks for helping us “Lawnguylanders” out in the thick of all this. Much appreciated. (The quotes kind of lend you some idea of how some of us speak. Or tawk, in case you haven’t put your finger on it.) Under different circumstances you could easily walk to a couple of decent Portuguese restaurants nearby that I’ve been to meself. There’s also any number of decent pubs within minutes of where you are. I grew up in Long Beach -about 10 or so miles south of your current location. NYC is a 30 minute train ride west from Mineola, but unfortunately all the audio stores ain’t open. Yet. Ain’t much open ‘round those parts or my parts, for that matter. I’ve been consuming the hours by drawing, and listening to Qobuz like it’s going outta business. One of the coolest things about Qobuz is diving deep into the labels. (Each release contains the label info and once you click you’re in the catalogue.) Kind of a trip down memory lane for those of us who could tell that Capitol vinyl had those orange/yellow swirls in the center. While they are a few things to nitpick about a few quirks in Qobuz, it by far exceeds iTunes. It stacks up pretty damn well in comparison to Tidal as well. I still have the Belles 250i integrated... |
Hi Jafant. it's great to be posting a bit again. Jim was a neat guy. I was blessed to meet him a few times. The local dealer was the biggest Theil fan. he still owns a pair of the big ones. I think he finally got rid of the new ones though. They were a bit too hot for my ears in the 90's, but I realized later that was because they ran them with the wrong electronics. I have heard them with the larger Mark Levinson mono's in the past and really enjoyed that. They also looked nice. Heck, I also liked the JSE sloped speakers back in the 90's too, Hmmm. I own Vandy Quatro's that are nothing like a 'box' speaker cabinet either...trend???? ha |
jafant You’re right in the thick of “Lawnguyland” in case you’ve noticed some of the local inflections. If the circumstances were different you could easily pop into places serving some decent Portuguese fare - there’s a couple within walking distance of the hospital you’re working in that I’ve been to meself. And thanks for that, by the way. You’re also near to one of the island’s major shopping districts |
What an amazing thread guys. Thanks to all who are posting such cool stuff. I love to learn and am open minded (regardless of how I may come off when posting). I have always loved CF and it's usage. When Richard saw some walking sticks I own (I use a rollator for most of my walking), he noticed the same CF he uses for his drivers. It's a very expensive and highly specialized CF that isn't as easy to use as most of the CF on the market. Materials matter as much as implementation. Caps and inductors are next in line from what many designers have shared over the years. Cool thread guys. Thanks. |
You can also read up and use the Bud Purvine EnABL method for which he was granted U.S. patent # 5,304,746..filed 1991. The Purvine patent originally described a method to reduce or eliminate standing waves now better described as transverse, or shear waves or a type called a Raleigh wave. The EnABL used for years by many online can be applied to both sides of a surface including those of a speaker box and a speaker cone . Shear waves have 2 polarities and can only travel thru solids or on solids. Their polarity will change direction when it meets another different conductive material or geometric boundary .This process repeats itself until there is no signal contained or there is no longer a conductive material. The shear waves generate an odd affect on boundary edges that join up and meet, almost seems to be a fluttering of energy that will wrap around the front of a baffle and carry over to a portion of the joining side. A corner in a glass house would be an extreme example of how a surface conducts sound vibrations. You can apply the EnABL method to drivers, cabinets, turntable platters ,walls and probably a race car..endless surfaces and materials. There are other methods available to reduce interfering energy on many different products. By doing so there sounds to be an increase of effiencey. Exactly as in the Debbie Miles patent she describes a method to reduce shear wave interference in the floor surface boundary of a string instrument. This method is easily heard as an increase in volume and power while at the same time reducing the amount of energy needed to make any given sound. Debbie likes to call this a reduction of interfering energy. The shear waves travel in and on the materials, the air that lays against these solid materials vibrates and relates a character of sound to our ears, some could be described as dry or woody or glassey and tinny each depending on the material, its shape and boundary . All materials have a different shear velocity among other descriptions this is why lead sounds different than brass or glass, wood or beryllium. A reduction of a polarity of shear on and in a large surface in motion such as a room wall will improve laminar flow like we use in The Energy Room. We originally applied these same methods to our complete speaker system. As Debbie says that reduces interfering energy. Tom D. |
One interesting aspect of external crossovers, is that so many aspects in the cabinet are devoted to vibration management. Gluing the parts to the board impinges on thermal stability, but if left unglued, they rattle and buzz and introduce microphonics. Out of the box, that aspect is not a problem. Also, a major limit to directionality of coils is their position in the driver magnetic fields. That goes away too. And the heat thing is big; the enclosure keeps getting hotter, whereas the EXO self-cools. And two-sided boards become practical for isolation of resistors from caps. You get the picture. SDL - I love the basement idea. But also, these EXOs will be in presentable cabinets of their own. I can’t help it, I was born that way. Tomic - I have reverted to point to point on masonite - no printed circuits. When rebuilding Beetle’s 2.4s (late / Chinese, on PCBs) we noted coils with up to (perhaps) 20% variation from spec. Those changes were required to re-balance considering the capacitive coupling to the PCB traces. I prefer to keep the coupled capacitance separate from the inductance. I am also at greater liberty to manage the layout to avoid parallel leads and/or bring them to contact and twist to virtually eliminate self-capacitance. I am loving the audition material selection. By randomizing it via the next album alphabetically, I have reduced the tendency to design for only the best audiophile material. I learn as much from ordinary or substandard cuts as I do from great cuts. However, anyone is welcome to send the Chesky catalog or other great stuff. Eric - you are most welcome to share your turbulent / laminar flow ideas if you wish, either here or via PM. I have a setup that works, but might be significantly improved. I cover the baffle with F11 pure wool felt at 1/8 or 1/4", covered with the finest Ultrasuede Fine fabric. The drivers and bezels are covered with a stretchy version of USF. The US surface fibers are so fine as to be moved by the pressure - shear waves. The effect is lovely. I am now working with an aerospace engineer with a technology patent for surface flow dynamics management for spacecraft re-entry. No end to the fun. |
tomthiel, Thanks for the interesting update. As an owner of a pair of 2.2s, I think this model represents a great place to start on the upgrade path. The use of an external xo makes a lot of sense, both for practical and sonic reasons. My 2.2s are on a carpeted wood floor with an unfinished basement space below them. I could easily run an umbilical cord through the floor and place a xo box in the basement underneath each speaker. That would be very cool! When you can, please continue to post upgrade updates for the xo, the cabinet bracing, and the vibration management efforts. Keep up the impressive work!!! |
I would encourage isolation for the external filters and for Tom no wiring between input terminals and heavy curved traces on boards. btw we did external filters on some KEF Kit Cantatas circa 1984 ish but also did aircore so were unable to understand impact of single variable change - needless to say those B-139 sang !!! |
Well, Tom, you have given me some ideas how to explore the difference between the active digital xo and the original passive xo of the 3.5. I'll keep the original xo external and begin with comparing the woofer only, with and without the eq, and compare it to the various digital active xo and eq settings. Thanks |
Beetle - problem is I don’t drink coffee. Proper number is -0003 is the reference A. Good catch. How’s the coffee? There are plenty of good reasons for an external XO. But it is tweaky, difficult and would put off many people. In the case of the 2.2, there isn’t a good option to squeeze best parts into the interior spaces. And the merits are likely to be substantial. But to your Oy! issue, this problem might be peculiar to this model. The general opinion seems to be that the 2.2 is more mellow, easy, forgiving, and with a bigger bass than other Thiel speakers. Some people say it’s the only Thiel they can tolerate. I had speculated that we thought our first passive radiator somehow coupled with rooms "better" than anticipated, giving that full-bottom presentation. But it doesn’t measure "full"; it stacks up quite nicely with the 3.5 and 3.6 that I have here - matching the specified target roll off point without any bloat or other measured anomalies. John Atkinson used the 2.2 for years as his own system reference. He commented in his Stereophile review how the passive radiator produced a "hard bottoming" relative to the CS2 port’s "soft chuffing" at volume. He said he eventually gave them up because they just wouldn’t produce loud enough bass for him. I can’t visualize how the passive would hit hard - it is made of 2 large, soft surrounds on the back and front of a semi-soft foam plug. ??? So maybe this "splatting", "generalized low end" and "easy mellowness" of the 2.2 are all attributable to these layout and overload characteristics which I am addressing with the EXO. So, just sit tight regarding your potential need to tweak this problem on your 2.4s; by the time I get to working on the 2.4, we’ll know a lot more. I’m looking forward to picking up the pair I scored on Long Island - when it gets safer. |
I disassembled one (original prototype # -0004) cabinet, removed the crossover and wired only the woofer to the input terminal. The other (-0003) was left as a reference with the internal XO and woofer intact, but with the midrange and tweeter disconnected. I built the woofer section for -0004 by the new layout while using all the original parts in the original orientations. No upgrades, changes or replacements to confuse the issues.G'morning Tom Either my coffee hasn't kicked in or your speaker numbering is flipped from one paragraph to the next. Regardless, it sounds like you heard a *massive* improvement "simply" by moving to an external crossover. Oy! I am supposed to be done with my mods!!!LOL FWIW, one of my all-time top 4-5 speakers is the Avalon Ascent, possibly the only external XO speaker I've heard. |
Hi @tomthiel Sounds like you have a lot of work but all of it is engaging and creative so I am sure you are well motivated. I did some experimenting a while ago with coils and conductors and discovered how easy it was to have a coil couple via capacitance to traces underneath it. Wonder if you are running into that as well. Best of luck, Erik |
I find it interesting to explore places I used to live or used to spend time at on Google maps. I figure that old farmhouse must've been real close to here and judging by the look of the houses there now it might still be standing. Look familiar? https://www.google.com/maps/place/602+S+Broadway+St,+Georgetown,+KY+40324/@38.2038309,-84.5603159,3a... |
tomthiel Last week I read and watched a program describing this Neuronal Overload syndrome. Yes, it is a real medical diagnosis. The subject (person) could not tolerate any EMF/RMF stimulation from simple household appliances, cellular, internet, the list went on. Very rare in the global population at this time. I suspect as the entire world attempts to go, full-on cellular/wifi, many more will suffer. There is something to be said for living far away from the grid, especially, in places like New York City. Good to read that a provider was able to help you beat this dangerous condition. Thank You for the time travel back into 1975. As always, the history lesson was informative and valuable as you take those mental notes into application today(2020). After the 2.2, which model(s) are on your overhaul radar? Happy Listening! |
