Thiel Owners

Thanks for the kind comments, jafant and Tom...truly appreciated!

Tom: Wow...your wealth of information in all things Thiel is truly a blessing! I have limitations with seating position due to my ground floor family room...basically, I’ve split it in thirds lengthwise, with a sectional facing my flat panel taking up the "front" 2/3's and my listening area taking up the last "back" third, but arranged width wise as you saw in the pictures. I am sitting a bit closer than I’d like for my taste.

Where your comments on ear height ring so true is that I used to have a chair where I did sit lower, but my wife hated that it was so beat up, so we junked it but never truly replaced it. So, I’m using the spare office chair you saw in the pics. I have noticed that my 3.5’s have become more "touchy" with certain material where higher frequencies have become much more grainy and pronounced. This wasn’t always so, but I chalked it up to switching cables or the addition of the Bluesound Vault and its on-board DAC. I will try your suggestion regarding ear height...Thanks again for the suggestion and your invaluable information!

Arvin C

Hello jafant,

Around the same time I had the Vault 2 installed (had to have my dealer run CAT5 cabling to my listening area), I inserted MIT Terminator 2 cables from my LS7 line stage to the Thiel Bass Equalizer and then to the amp.  Former cables were Audioquest Golden Gate and King Cobra to the amp.  

While I do believe the MIT's are probably more resolving in some way, I do think the Vault's DAC is more likely the cause as it renders some of my ripped CD's with a presentation that's a bit more forward and lean than I remember.  Will try Tom's suggestion on listening height this weekend as I also swapped out my old listening chair just before getting the MIT cables and Vault 2 installed.

Happy listening!

Arvin C

@jafant & @jazzman7

You guys definitely bring back some memories! Back in high school, when car stereo was HUGE, I remember the local installer/enthusiast community absolutely loved Cerwin Vegas. They were more then once described as the “home version of a 2000 watt bass box”!  LOL...the things we loved from our youth, right?

Arvin C

Question for the group:

What would you consider...whether it be a brand, model or speaker type...that would be most opposite of what Thiels are? IOW, the antithesis of Thiel.

Not trying to be inflammatory or anything like that, just something I have been wondering about as I read/watch more and more speaker reviews.

Tom: I have not yet been able to try tilting my 3.5’s back as my business trip away from home is lasting a second week, but will report back once I am able to.
Hope everyone’s doing well...

Arvin C

Ladies and gentleman, Mr. Tom Thiel once again dropping the knowledge...Thanks for sharing, Tom!

@oblgny

Thanks for sharing. I, too, remember my high school music theory teacher, Mr. Yankee. Very well educated, slightly quirky guy who seemed like he just wanted an excuse to hang out with the guys (went to an all boys private school), shoot the crap  and listen to music all day. Plus, he listened to EVERYTHING & made sure to share something different with us every class we had.

Anyway, I will always remember him not for the songs we listened to, nor the lessons he taught, but always for this quote he gave us. One day, during class, after we had just finished listening to “In My Life” by The Beatles, he looked up from his desk and told the class:

”Gentlemen...all the great songs and all the great music have already been written.”

This was my sophomore year in 1987. Looking back now and seeing what passes for music these days for so many people, I have to think that he was correct...

Arvin

Hello all! 

I have finally been able to make it home and put in a dedicated listening session, experimenting with tilting my speakers as @tomthiel had suggested and also varying ear height with regards to my listening position.

First off, this experiment started due to the fact I had been experiencing graininess/brightness issues recently.  At first, I thought it was due to switching to MIT Terminator 2 RCA interconnects from my line-stage to the Thiel Bass Equalizer and again from there to my amps.  Then, I thought it could be the onboard DAC in my Bluesound Vault 2, which has been described by some to be on the lean/bright side.  Finally, could it be the addition of the second D240 MKII amp? Now that I'm running a bridged mono configuration, is it the 3.5's showing off their revealing nature even more?  Only when Tom saw the pics of my listening area did he suggest to tilt the speakers back to try and compensate for a listening height that may be too high.

Tracks used for critical listening included:
-  "The Game of Love" by Santana 
-  "Steam" by Peter Gabriel 
-  "Crush" by Dave Mathews Band
-  "Soul Bossa Nova" by Quincy Jones and his Orchestra
-  "Desafinado" by Stan Getz and Joao Gilberto
-  "Midnight Blue" by Kenny Burrell
-  "Don't Know Why" by Norah Jones
-  "Son of a Preacher Man" by Dusty Springfield
All these tracks are in Hi-Res FLAC (Vault library) or MQA (streaming) formats coming from my Bluesound Vault 2 using the onboard DAC.

After listening to the tracks in my default position, I began by tilting each speaker back about 3" using sand bags.  I found that they became quite unstable if I tried to tilt them much further than that.  In listening to the tracks now, there was a noticeable change in sound:  there was a smoother presentation overall, with less glare at the very top.  I wouldn't say it was rolled off or missing, just not as pronounced as before.  However, the more i listened, the more I realized I was missing some of the instrument separation that I had before, not in a bad way, but just different.  The tilted position also made the speakers "disappear" a bit more, but was I losing some of the "presence" of the musical performance?

So, I decided to experiment further:  instead of tilting the speakers, I got a different, lower chair and measured my ear height based off of Tom's recommendations. Now, with my ears about 32" from the floor, I was definitely below the tweeter level.  In this position, I felt instantly familiar with the overall presentation from my speakers...maybe not as smooth as with the tilted position, but the highs were better controlled than I had heard in my original position.  Most importantly, I felt more presence, more involvement here...that I could "see" where instruments, sounds and vocals were coming from. 

What did I learn?  First, Tom knows what he's talking about when it comes to our speakers.  Second, because of my space constraints, I have a suboptimal setup (toed-in, speaker to listener height/distance) that really affects the way the speakers perform.  Lastly, Thiels reputation for being ruthlessly revealing is well warranted...and may not be "solvable" because in trying to tame some brightness, I felt like I lost some presence and detail.  Perhaps I'm not one who enjoys a speaker that "disappears"...maybe what I really enjoy is a reproduction that makes me feel like I hear every instruments' and sections' and singers' position across a stage/studio when I close my eyes.  The Thiels are MORE than capable of doing this.

I am more than satisfied with this chair and the new, lower listening position.  I feel that I've gotten the brightness under enough control, while maintaining the details and presence I didn't realize I loved until I lost some of it.  Maybe I'm not making any sense...but, I am enjoying listening to this system and the music!

Thanks for all your suggestions and for reading...Hope you're all doing well!

Arvin

@tomthiel

Question for you, Tom:  Any experience with placing the 3.5's on a platform?  Say 2" of butcher block maple with brass carpet spikes underneath?

Something my uncle suggested this morning after seeing/hearing my system for the first time.  FWIW, he thinks it sounds great & that "we're all crazy for chasing that last 10% for true greatnes!"

Ah, something audiophiles will only understand!

Arvin

@vair68robert

I second @jafant...I am finding your cable posts quite informative.  If there's one area of Hi-Fi where one can safely & cost-effectively practice some DIY, it's in building a good set of cables.  I hope to start myself jow that I'm fairly satisfied with my components.  

Thanks for sharing!

Arvin

@jab 

Thanks for sharing your experiences! I will check out those Sound Anchor stands for compatibility. Will try a temporary solution as an experiment first...think I may be chasing improvements that really aren't possible in my listening space.

Arvin

Satisfaction...

Just spent the last few hours listening to Tidal MQA streams of Dexter Gordon, John Coltrane, Kenny Burrell, Thelonius Monk and others...and I didn't listen to the equipment so much anymore, I just listened to the music.  And that music was so right...timbre, pace, rhythm, tone, timing, nuance and brilliance...that I suddenly realized I had built something that I am completely satisfied with.  That I was more in a place where making any change would worry me that it could be one that detracts or worsens...that here, right now, I was truly happy in this space.  A realization that the dream I had when I was 15 years old of one day, owning a real "audiophile" system had finally come true.  

Or, it could be just stir craziness creeping in during these crazy times we live in...who knows?  But damn...the music is so, so good and it sounds incredible coming out of this thing I put together!  Satisfaction indeed...

Hope you are all well and are staying safe!

Arvin

Hi @tomthiel,

The core of my system remain the Thiel CS 3.5's being fed by two Audio Research D240 MKII solid-state amps (in bridged-mono configuration), with Audio Research tube preamps (LS7 line-stage and PH3 phono).  The source I was streaming Tidal from is my Bluesound Vault 2, which has a MQA-capable DAC built-in...most of the files I've been listening to lately are MQA-encoded tracks.  As before, my listening area is on the smaller side, probably 14'x10', but thanks to your help, I think I finally was able to nail down my listening height issue...my ears are now about 30"-32" from the floor, depending on how far I lean my chair back.

I came to the feeling of satisfaction from two different vantage points...one practical, the other emotional.  On the practical side, I finally got the feeling that, if I could never try another/different/new component in my system, I would be okay with it.  That I finally had a system that satisfied me with not only how it sounds and how it performs, but also gave me great joy in owning it, great pride in the time and effort it took to acquire the right pieces and put it all together.

From an emotional standpoint, it was the realization that I was no longer listening to music...I was experiencing it.  When one listens to the greats...be it Miles Davis or Dexter Gordon, Van Cliburn or Horowitz, Clapton or Page, Pet Sounds or Sgt. Pepper's...you should feel wonder and amazement, of feelings that go beyond simply listening and to the emotions that these great artists, and others like them, have when they perform.  That's what I had...that's what I finally understood...that for me, Hi-Fi meant feeling the music on an emotional scale more than anything else.  And, the only way I got there, was because of this beautiful, seemingly perfect combination of metal, wood, wire and current that moved air in such a way that it stirred emotion.  I was satisfied, because I had come to understand what this wonderful hobby meant to me.

Could it be better?  Sure...I would never delude myself with thinking that it couldn't.  But, the more important question I asked myself was, "Did I need it to be better?"  And, without hesitation, I am happy with knowing that right now, no...I'm pretty happy with where I'm at!

So, Thank You Tom and everyone else for your help, guidance and  knowledge.  And I hope that this finds you and yours well and safe...

Arvin

@tomthiel
Hi, Tom.  That’s the height I get in my new, lower listening chair. Still considering elevating my speaker using butcher-block atop brass cones/spikes, but have settled down for now...enjoyment-factor is just too good!
Arvin

Hello everyone...Happy Holidays!

I have been enjoying a vintage pair of Thiel CS 3.5's for well over 2 months now and can honestly say that I am absolutely thrilled with them. Their ability to play so cleanly with that incredibly wide and open soundstage never fails to amaze me as I re-discover my music collection. They truly are full-range...the bass is deep, clean, precise and authoritative. The other thing I've found is that as difficult as they are supposed to be to drive, my Denon PMA-2000 IVR (160 watts @ 4 ohms) integrated seems to be getting on quite well with them. I am using the tape loop in my integrated to play through the Bass Module. The Thiels do like to be driven, though...they really open up and "clear their throats" as I turn up the wick. Truly stunning performers!!!

If I were to have one issue, it's that the Thiels expose poorly recorded material in a ruthless, almost non-correctable fashion. For instance, I have many CD's from the early days of the format that now have a harsh, irritatingly "bright" sound to them. What's even worse are digital files. I've been re-ripping my CD collection to loss-less FLAC, but any "lossy" files really are exposed in ways I never noticed as much before. Of course, Hi-Res files, DSD and MQA Master files from Tidal are played beautifully!

My current set-up is decidedly "Mid-Fi", but has everything I need to get very good sound:

- Denon PMA 2000IVR Integrated Amplifier
- Denon DVD-2900 CD/DVD-Audio/SACD Player
- Denon DJ VL12 Prime Direct-Drive Turntable with Shure M97xE (MC) & Denon 103R (MM) cartridges
- Thiel CS-3.5 w/Thiel Bass Module
- Toshiba Satellite laptop w/Meridian Explorer 2 USB DAC (MQA capable)
- Roon and Tidal digital-file playback/streaming applications
- AudioQuest Golden Gate interconnects
- Gotham SPK-8 speaker cables with Eminence E400 banana plugs
- Pangea Audio AC-9 (amplification) & AC-14 (sources) power cables
- Tripp Lite LCR2400 Line Conditioner

My current plan is to move towards separates. While I truly enjoy my integrated, I have an inkling that something like vintage Adcom, Threshold or Krell amplification will open-up the Thiels even more. What I do wonder is if what I really need to tame the harshness I get from some music is tubes...maybe something vintage from Conrad Johnson or Audio Research will work? 

I've posted several photos of my Thiels and little listening area here:  

www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1340

Thanks for any feedback or suggestions!

Arvin

Thanks for the welcome, jafant...and Happy New Year to you & yours as well!

oblgny:  Thanks for your very detailed post...a lot of information I plan on putting to good use!  You've pretty much confirmed what I was suspecting...that the Thiels are simply reproducing what's been recorded.  

As a child of the 80's, I grew up in the world of Japanese "mid-fi". And while I have always been one who lives by "It's about listening to music", I cannot help but now feel that what I'm really needing to do is move into the realm of Hi-Fi.  The Thiels represent the first truly Hi-Fi piece of equipment I have owned & I can now understand why component matching becomes so critical as one "moves up the ladder."

It's a journey I will be excited to make...

Arvin

Happy Friday fellow Thiel owners & fans!

Ok, considering my earlier posts up above (and great feedback from jafant, oblgny & prof), I am now focusing on either Conrad-Johnson or Audio Research for pre- & amplification.  I will be going the pre-owned route, as I just can't get my head around the full-price of new gear these days...but, that's a different discussion.

How would you compare the sonic characteristics between the two, i.e. which is warmer, more revealing, has better high, better lows, etc.?

Also, is going all-tube (in pre-amp & amp) going to rob me of too much speed, attack and bottom-end "slam" that I've grown accustomed to from solid-state gear?  

In full disclosure, I posted this same query in the "Amps Preamps" forum as well.

Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions...Enjoy the music!

Arvin

Hello all!

First off, thanks for the incredible input prof, Jon, arniespin, oblgny and jafant...this is a great forum to be part of because of the fine participation you all give!

OK, right now, I'm working on a deal to purchase an ARC LS7 line-stage.  It's in great shape considering its vintage ('95-'97), offered by the original owner. He says the four 6922 tubes in it have a lot of life left in them. (Have to admit that I don't know how ANY tube-types sound as I have never owned tube equipment before...)

Haven't closed the deal yet, but...Any thoughts?

Arvin

Hello all!

Well, the next upgrade to my system come in today, an Audio Research LS-7 tube line-stage.  Bought it from the original owner, about 500 hours on the current tube set.  Unit looks immaculate, but the sound...

Installed it and have it running to my integrated, which I'm using as an amp for now.  Even with that, the LS-7 (once warmed up!) threw a soundstage that wasn't just wider, but deeper front to back as well.  That's what stood out the most...directionality and presence in depth.  As far as how it sounded...there was definitely a greater sense of control, where tonality was better defined, where individual notes and sounds had a clarity I didn't hear before.  3 hours in and I love it...and so do my 3.5's!!!

Now, I need a matching tube amp and phono stage!!!  Ahhh, this isn't a hobby...it's an obsession!!!

Enjoy the music, everyone!

Hello all!

Regarding the recent discussion on cables, I had always been interested in the Alpha-Core Goertz cables & the principals behind their design. Having read that these match well with Thiels has only peaked my interest even further.  However, their have been some comments on other posts/forums regarding the lack of a Zobel network and possible damage using the Goertz design? I have to admit, I tried to understand the discussion, but it was over my head.  Are there any considerations needed when using cables of this type?  Checking on The Cable Company website, the Goertz cables are very competitively priced.  As reference, my current speaker cables are MIT AVT-3.  

Thanks for any input...Hope you & yours are safe & well!

Arvin

Hello all!

Wondering if anyone has ever re-covered their grills & if so, where did they buy the cloth, how much to buy & how much it cost?

I’ve been researching "speaker grill cloth" & have been quite surprised at how much some sites are asking per yard of the stuff...in basic black, no less.

The grills on my 3.5’s are in great shape structurally, but the cloth was trimmed & reglued by the previous owner, leaving me nothing "extra" now that the edges have begun to peel away. 

Thanks for any help or suggestions!

Arvin

Hello all,

Just wanted to share a email I received from Rob at Coherent Source Service re the Electronic Bass Equalizer module that the CS 3.5 uses:

Hi Arvin,

 

Thank you for the kind words. Also thank you very much for the ownership of our CS3.5’s, they truly are stunning performers. As for the CS3.5 Bass EQ, there are a few issues with age. With age the eq’s will develop some DC negative voltage output, at the output jacks. This DC voltage at the outputs Usually 1or 2 volts will cause weak and/or distorted signal output.The problem is almost always caused by an FET which has developed a short due to static voltage being applied to the output during hook-up. EQ’s with serial numbers above 3770 have had this circuit removed. I also find that some EQ’s, can cause cracking and popping, due to dirty trimpots. Most of these EQ issues can be corrected by cleaning and adjusting of the channels biasing circuitry. The EQ service is a standard rate of $150. Please let me know if you would like to set ups a return for servicing the EQ. As for the caps. It is rare that a problem occurs, and is usually a factory maintenance issue.

 

Thanks for your business,

 

Rob Gillum

 

Coherent Source Service

763 Newtown Pike Ste. 130

Lexington, KY 40511

 

859-554-9790

rob@coherentsourceservice.com

 

Not sure who else here owns 3.5's or uses the Bass Equalizer, but I figured I'd share just in case.  At any rate, my module does exhibit the crackling noise Rob mentions in his email, so I will most definitely send mine in for service.  The $150 flat rate he's quoting seems very reasonable, especially in the world of hi-fi services!

Arvin

Hello Tom,

I, for one, would be highly interested in seeing/hearing what a souped-up 3.5 can do!!! I have decided to build my system around these amazing speakers. In fact, I recently replaced my Denon PMA-2000 IVR integrated (very good sounding, Mid-Fi or not!) with an ARC LS-7 line stage, PH-3 phono pre-amp and D240 MKII amp...all in effort to make the Thiels sing just that much better!

I have always used the Bass EQ. While there were those who preferred not to use it for purity-sake, I always felt that there had to be something to it if Jim Thiel designed it specifically for the 3.5's. With it, it wasn't hard to hear  that the 3.5’s played lower, with more power and clarity, than my previous Martin Logan set-up (Motion LX-16 monitors WITH a Dynamo 300 subwoofer) ever did...This is truly a full-range speaker.  It didn't take me long to realize that I've finally found speakers that I could live with for a very long time.

Anyway, excuse my ramblings. Yes, a "super" version of a 3.5 would be an awesome idea, one I’m sure any owner, previous or current, would be interested in.

Thanks for your participation in our discussions...your insights and observations have been very informative and revelatory.

Arvin

Hello all!

Today, I received the latest addition to my system, an Audio Research PH-3 phono pre-amp. The reason I’m bringing this up is that, ever since I got my Thiel 3.5’s this past November, my system has evolved a lot, all in an effort to extract as much performance & pleasure as I can from my Thiels. Since November, I have acquired:

-  ARC LS-7 tubed line-stage
-  ARC D240 MkII solid-state amp
-  ARC PH-3 tubed phono pre-amp
-  Wilson Benesch Full Circle turntable (awaiting delivery)
-  MIT AVT-3 speaker cables (picking-up tomorrow)
-  Bluesound Vault 2 streamer/NAS/player (being installed next week)

My interconnects remain AudioQuest Golden Gates & Cobras. And, still held onto my Denon 2900 SACD/DVD player. 

Point being...these Thiels have driven me to devious behaviors! I think I will be pretty happy for a while now, but I’m still looking for another D240 MkII so I can run them bridged as mono blocks. All to feed those Thiels all that much better...

Here’s hoping I don’t end up needing an intervention! 

Enjoy the music everyone...

Arvin

@tomthiel - Hi, Tom! In another Thiel related thread, you offered to share your take on why there wasn’t a CS4-series speaker. Wondering if you wouldn’t mind sharing that story here?

Thanks again for enriching these discussions!

Arvin

@tomthiel -

Wow...what an incredible story! This is what a lot of us audiophiles/geeks love to hear...the why & how that goes behind the scenes. Now I know why there is some shared “architecture” between the CS6 & the 3.7. However, the idea of a modern CS4 with a powered sub AND a folded horn...Who wouldn’t want to hear that?!?!?Thanks for sharing, Tom!

As a side note, my family origins lie in the Philippines. Back in the 80’s & early 90’s, Thiel speakers were held in such high regard there & throughout SE Asia that they became status symbols to many in the hobby. In fact, throughout Asia, while it was fine to have Japanese electronics, you weren’t truly high-end unless you had American speakers. For many, that meant JBL, Klipsch & Thiel.

Thanks & please keep the stories coming, Tom...truly fascinating reading!

Arvin

Hello fellow Thiel owners & fans!

Just wanted to update you on the repair of my 3.5's Electronic Bass EQ at Coherent Source Services.

As you may remember, I began to get some intermittent "crackling" coming out of my system right around late January. I tracked it down to the Bass EQ. Contacted Rob at Coherent Source and he informed me about excess voltage accumulating in the output circuit of the unit, which causes the crackling. Sent it to him, he cleared the pots and repaired the output circuit to eliminate the excess voltage problem from ever happening again.

Without it in my system, it was clear that my 3.5's just wouldn't go as low as I was used to. Putting it back into my system, the repaired unit was not only noticeably more quiet, but had more "impact" and "slam" than before! The bass is definitely fuller, but the speed and definition has improved markedly...couldn't be a better way to spend $165 to get this improvement in sound!

Turnaround time was about 3 weeks, which I didn't mind since I travel for work during the week.  I also looked at it as he was pretty busy, which is good because I'd love Rob to succeed.  His communication with me, as with other Thiel owners, has been excellent!  He even sent me a follow-up email with the following advice:

"The EQ is especially attractive sonically when the switch is in the 20 Hz position. In order for there speakers to last a long time, be sure to switch to 40 Hz position on the EQ when listening loudly. Because the speakers are a first-order crossover, it is not advisable to play them loudly when in the 20 Hz position, as the midrange drivers are also wide bandwidth and this will shorten the life of the mids by sending the 20Hz signal through them while listening loudly. The CS3.5’s are truly great, and I hope you enjoy them for many years. Thank you for your business, and ownership of the CS3.5’s. Your EQ is shipping today via UPS ground. Tracking number is XXXXXXXXX. Happy listening!"

Anyway, like I said, the improvement in sound with the repaired EQ unit is truly remarkable.   If your EQ module has a serial number below 3770, consider having Rob service the unit as it does contain the output circuit where excess voltage builds up.  You may be surprised at how much sound you've been missing!

Hope you're enjoying the music...

Arvin

@jafant 

Happy Easter to you & yours as well!

Just started playing the entire Beatles catalog from The Beatles Limited Edition USB Box Set, hi-res FLAC files ripped to my Bluesound Vault 2.  Easy marathon listening session...

@tomthiel & @beetlemania  -  Please put me down as a definite "Yes"!  I am concerned with the point beetle made earlier regarding how my 3.5's must be pushing 30+ years old by now.  I had just recently had their Electronic Bass EQ overhauled by Rob at Coherent Source & the sound quality improvement was instantly noticeable.  

My feeling is that our Thiels, which have always been so revealing & resolving of the sources and material we "fed" them, will show similar improvements with the updated crossovers you guys are working on.  At the very least, it will add more years of "life" to these classics.

Thanks for the updates and good luck on your project!

Arvin

Hello all!

Haven't checked-in in a while as I am currently in the process of moving from Baltimore to Denver for a new position.  Glad to see that my fellow Thiel owners are as active & passionate as ever!

I have made several additions & updates to my system. I still have my 3.5's with the Bass Equilizer that was recently repaired by Rob Gillum. Still have an all vintage Audio Research front-end with a D240 MKII solid-state amp (looking out for a second one so I can run them as mono-blocks), a tube LS-7 pre & a tube PH-3 phono stage. Turntable is my vintage Technics 1200 MKII with a Shure M97xe MM cartridge. Interconnects are AudioQuest Golden Gate RCA`s. All power cables are stock, plugged into a Tripp Lite LCR2400 line conditioner. However, I've made three important updates...

First, I am now using a Bluesound Vault 2 for streaming & digital file/CD playback duties. I must say that I am THRILLED with this product! It's so easy to use & it is extremely versatile. I was able to rip my 500+ CD collection to its internal HD & the playback is every bit as good (maybe better?) than I got from my Denon 2900 player. As far as streaming goes, I'm using it mainly for Tidal & can tell you that the sound quality is simply amazing. The Masters/MQA & cd-quality stream decoding is better than my former PC/Meridian Explorer 2 DAC set-up & the Vault doesn't have any issues with drop-outs or other connection problems. The Bulesound app is very easy to use as well & the integration to Tidal & Roon is excellent. I'm considering an upgrade to a Mytek Brooklyn DAC to get even better sound. My only gripe is that the Vault 2 can't rip/play SACD`s. Guess nothing's perfect...

The other thing I did was introduce some MIT gear into my system.  I've always been interested in their "Network Box" & "Poles of Articulation" technology. Well, I'm not technical enough to tell you how it works, but after replacing a fine set of Gotham SPK-8 speaker cables with their AVT-3 cables, I`ve noticed that my 3.5's have a fuller bottom-end with much more detail than before. The bass now goes deeper, with much more definition & presence. Mids are similar as before, but the highs are now better controlled, with a detail that never becomes shrill.  Any "bright" sounding tendencies are dramatically reduced or outright eliminated. For $120.00 used, best affordable update I have ever experienced!

To add to the MIT experience, I replaced the AudioQuest Golden Gates running from the Bass Equalizer to my amp with a pair of MIT Terminator interconnects. This opened things up further in terms of overall detail & added a dramatically deeper sense of depth.  I paid $80 for these cables & again, I couldn't be more happier with the added performance I got for the price I paid.

While I was extremely happy with my system before, I am now blown away with the sound I am getting. While I know that there are certainly limitations in sticking with the "vintage" route to system building, I can't help but feel like I'm getting way more performance & enjoyment than what I'm spending. And it all revolves around the Thiels. While my system components may change, I do know that they will change with the intention of making these remarkable speakers sing ever better!

Thanks for reading & I hope you are all enjoying your music!

Arvin

@ronkent -

At least they went to someone who will appreciate & care for them. Congrats on the successful sale & good listening with those 3.7's! 

Arvin

To add to the topic idea proposed by ronkent, in no particular order:

-  "Brothers In Arms" Dire Straits (Mobile Fidelity, 180g, 45 rpm)
-  "The Trinity Session" Cowboy Junkies (Analogue Productions, 200g, 33 rpm)
-  "The Joshua Tree" U2 (Quality Record Pressings,180g, 33 rpm)
-  "Time Out" Dave Brubeck Quartet (Analogue Productions, 200g, 45 rpm)
-  "Blade Runner Soundtrack" Vangelis (Audio Fidelity, 180g, red vinyl)

These albums are what I use most when critical listening is needed, but I can get away by using two more than anything else.  First, I use "Brothers In Arms" as my rock reference:  "Money for Nothing" is an especially great track because of that explosive drum opening & Knopfler's searing guitar solo. The whole album is simply tremendous sounding, both musically & in an engineering sense.

"The Trinity Session" by the Cowboy Junkies is the second one. The entire album was recorded at Toronto's Church of the Holy Trinity using a single microphone, so the feeling you get is very intimate & raw...you can hear every little breath, fingering on fret boards, foot taps, etc.  The recording is so revealing.  But, most of all, it's Margo Timmins' haunting vocals that make this a reference album.  If the female voice is the most difficult instrument to record & reproduce well, this album will show you what your system's capable of. I love this record...

Looking forward to what others have to share!

Arvin

@solobone22

I have a pair of Bel Canto REF600M’s coming this week. Current amps are a Krell TAS and a Bryston 3BST. More as I get the new units setup and broken in.

Anyone already tried Thiels with Class D amps?

I’d be very interested in how your Thiels make out with the Bel Canto REF’s! I’m looking to get more powerful amplification for my CS3.5’s, but a part of me is struggling with the associated increases in inefficiency that a more powerful class A, class A/B or tube amp is going to bring. Don’t get me wrong...a proven vintage Krell or something from Pass is still high on my list, but trading my Audio Research gear for an all PS Audio Stellar stack (mono M700 amps, Gain Cell pre and NuWave phono pre amp/DAC/ADC) has crossed my mind as well.

Anyway, apologies for rambling a bit. Good luck with those Bel Canto’s (they have gotten rave reviews) and please do let us know what you hear.

Enjoy the music!

Arvin

Hi Tom,

I managed to track down the previous owner of my 3.5’s, which I bought from a vintage audio dealer/repair shop. He was the second owner, having moved on from them to 3.7’s. He is also the original owner of CS5’s that make up his big-room system. He’s also has a pair of 2.3’s in his basement. He’s a frequent lurker of this thread. 

Anyway, you’ve professed quite a few times of your love for the 3.5’s. The reason I bring this up because this gentleman also told me that he misses very much the 3.5’s sound...that, to him, they have a different character from other Thiel designs/models. He likened it to the 3.5’s having a wide tolerance for genres...it was a speaker that played everything very well. 

If I may ask, what about the 3.5’s make you love them so? Because, while I LOVE my 3.5’s and have built my system around them, I often wonder what I would get by moving to a bigger Thiel? 

Thanks for all your wonderful input on this thread...

Arvin

Hello all!

Haven't posted in a while, but happy to see the "usual suspects" as well as some new posters contributing to this great thread...I hope everyone is safe and well.

Tonight, looking to listen to something on the more mellow side, I decided to revisit David Gray's "White Ladder" album (streamed from Tidal, then from my own CD ripped to my Bluesound Vault).  While Gray's music can be lumped into the "Mom Rock/Pop" category, I always felt his song writing and musicality were way better than other performers (i.e. singers) of the genre.  Listening to this album tonight, I couldn't help but feel that I was listening to something that should be considered as reference-quality material.

For whatever reason, I never realized how ell recorded this album is:  the backgrounds are dead quiet, which really helps heighten the moody tone of the songs as well as allow Gray's vocals to be presented with some real air to them.  The musical performance is excellent as well...piano being Gray's primary instrument, his playing shines here as well as multi-layered strings and percussion giving you a sense of how complex the music is, yet presented in such an easy, soothing way.  But, most of all, many of the tracks on "White Ladder" have electronic components to them, primarily drum/beat machines.  This is what surprised and captivated me the most...low, deep bass with real slam and snap to the timing.  My 3.5's conveyed this with astonishing authority...bass that could be felt and heard, but never without a sense of musicality.

Again, I don't know exactly why this album, which I have always loved and have known well, sounded so different (in a very good way!) to me tonight.  I chalk it up to finally having that second D240 MKII ARC amp in my system and running them bridged-mono...480 watts/channel is a lot of watts.  But more importantly, I guess I'm just in a very comfortable place where the music just sounds so good coming out of my system, no matter what I select to play.  

Anyway...if you haven't heard the album, I recommend giving it a listen.  And if you have, I suggest listening to it again with an ear to its musicality and complexity.  You may be pleasantly surprised to find a new reference-quality recording! 

Thanks for reading and contributing to this forum...I truly learn so much from you all.  Again, I hope you and yours are all staying safe and doing well...Take care!

Arvin

Hello everyone! It’s been a while since I last posted, but have enjoyed keeping up on the discussion and am so very impressed at the vibrant community of Thiel owners and fans we have here!

I need some advice:  I have been looking to add a second Audio Research D240 MKII solid-state amp to my system to go along with my ARC LS7 tube preamp and PH3 tube phono preamp.  Having 2 D240 MKII’s in mono configuration would bring the rating to 480 watts @ 4 ohms per channel.  

Having said this, knowing that my CS 3.5’s have some history of blowing the mid-range drivers when driven hard, is this a case of having too much power? I don’t tend to listen too loudly, but wonder if having more power would lead to better control, dynamics and bottom end. Or am I getting this already with my single amp’s 240 watts? I guess what I’m asking is, are monoblocks worth it?

Thanks for any feedback....I really value the experience and knowledge you all share here!

Hope you are all doing well,

Arvin

Hello all & Thank You so much for the incredible input!  

Looks like my initial thoughts of increased performance are seconded by you all, while my fear of potentially damaging my Thiels was not as big of an issue as I thought.

I will definitely keep you up to date on how adding the second amp goes.  Right now, I’m waiting hear back from ARC to see if they can take both amps and “refresh” them so that they are as close to each other in terms of measurements and sonics as possible.

If I may, a question regarding the Bass EQ:  How noticeable should the audible difference between the two EQ settings be? The reason I ask is that while I can definitely hear the difference in my system with the EQ in place than without it (I went about 2 months sans EQ while it was being service by Rob at CS), the difference I hear between the two settings is much less noticeable to me, if at all.

Again, Thank You all for the great help!

Arvin

One of the greatest pleasures for me in our Hi-Fi hobby is when you listen to something you thought you know intimately well, only to discover nuances and details you never knew where there, or in this case, never truly appreciated.  This just happened to me...

I had just noticed that Tidal has an MQA version of The Beatles’ Deluxe Anniversary Edition of Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band.  Now, without getting into the wormhole of what MQA is or isn’t, I was simply blown away by what I just heard.  Specifically, on “A Day In The Life”, I was simply floored by sheer amount of layering my 3.5’s where throwing out...Lennon’s vocals had such air, like they were suspended high above all the instruments in the studio.  Then, Ringo’s incredible drumming...such timing...pop, pop, boom...pop, pop, boom...all from the right side, with the orchestra filling in on the left. Pianos on top of strings, horns sweeping...it was engulfing.  The song had so much presence to it, so much to its construction that I never heard before. This was not only a soundstage that had width and depth, but layer upon layer from top to bottom.

I love that song and I love that album...but I never heard it like that.  And, MQA or not, I wouldn’t have had this experience were it not for the Thiel 3.5’s. It takes a speaker of outstanding capability and quality to convey a musical performance like I just heard.  The Thiels never disappoint.  They have this ability to just sound so right...so detailed and yet so musical at the same time...that no matter what I throw at them, I simply enjoy. Incredible!  

I had to take a break from working to play that track again...and replay the album from the start.  I write this posting still gobsmacked at what I’ve just heard and so look forward to the next time the 3.5’s do this to me again...

Hope you all doing well!

Arvin

@jafant 

Yes...I am quite happy with my ARC gear!  However, I do have to admit that if I ever decide to move to another brand, it would be to Pass...I've heard several systems driven by Nelson Pass' gear and every time, I walk away working out the trade-in math in my head...

Hope you're well!

Arvin

Hello all!

I just wanted to chime in on the cable discussion as I am a bit of an outlier as well.  Like several of you, I am using Audioquest RCA interconnects (Golden Gate) on my front-end sources (ARC PH-3 tube phono preamp, Bluesound Vault 2 networked streamer, Denon 2900 SACD player and Denon VL-12 turntable) to my ARC LS-7 tube line-stage.  However, from the LS-7, I swapped out the Golden Gates and am now using MIT Terminator RCA interconnects to my ARC D240 MKII solid-state amp. 

I had been using a custom speaker cable set composed of Gotham SPK-8 cable, but replaced those with MIT AVT-3 speaker cables.  I was looking to diminish some harshness I perceived in my system and MIT was suggested to me by several other enthusiasts.  I do know that with the MIT in my system, the harshness I used to have has been pretty much eliminated and I do get a sense of a more cohesive sound...not a loss of resolution mind you, but less analytical than before if that makes sense.

While I cannot prove that their "poles of articulation" tech works, I will simply say that I do find the switch to MIT to be a noticeable and favorable change in that I get a better sense of musicality than I did before. 

Hope you are all enjoying the summer!

Arvin

@ bighempin

From my personal experience of hearing my friend's all Vincent system, I can say that their tubed & hybrid phono preamp models sound great...way better than their reasonable prices would suggest.  They're built extremely well & look good to boot.  He has their PHO 701 which is tubed-based, has an external power supply & can be switched for MM/MC.  Costs about half of what you'd think it should, especially after you hear it.  They will easily fit in your budget range...worth a try.

Another contender I could recommend is the Lehmannaudio Black Cube.  Had one in my system for a little while and can say that it very transparent and extremely quiet, but may sound a bit lean depending on the system it's put in.

Good luck!

Arvin

Hello all!

Anyone here have any experience or thoughts on Class D amplification with our Thiels? As I continue to wait and research my eventual move to monoblocks, I must admit, the thought of something from Bel Canto, Theta Digital, Jeff Rowland, PS Audio or Audio Research’s DS450M (would mate well with the rest of my tubed ARC gear) has been gaining traction in my mind solely for the Class D’s promise of energy efficiency.

Appreciate any thoughts...

Arvin

Hello all...it’s been a while since I last posted, but I have finally caught up with the 9 (!) pages of forum posts since I last visited. 
Kudos to JAfant for starting such a wonderfully informative, collaborative & civil discussion on our amazing speakers...4 years strong!

My system remains unchanged: ARC LS-7 line stage, PH 3 phono pre amp & D-240 MKII ss amp. Main source these days is a Blue Sound Vault 2 with Tidal streaming. 
I continue to look forward to going to mono block amplification in effort to drive my CS 3.5s with greater authority & control. To that end, while we have many thoughts & feedback on tubes & solid state, I find myself wondering about the possibility of Class-D digital amplification. Anyone here have any thoughts on the usual suspect audiophile models from Bel Canto, Theta Digital, Wadia, etc? I had a chance to try ARC’s 450M Class-D amps, but they were bought before I could schedule a listen. 
Thanks for the knowledge & experience you’ve all shared here...it’s truly an exceptional forum!  And, like so many others here, I really look forward to Tom Thiel’s & other’s efforts to hot rodding/extending our Thiels for the foreseeable future.

Happy 2020!

Arvin C

@solobone22 

Hello!

Thanks for sharing your experience...especially considering Bel Canto’s amps are definitely on my short list of auditioning. 
I may have to adjust my thinking as I am primarily looking at D-amplification from an efficiency standpoint but haven’t researched too deeply in how well it would match with the rest of my tube-based gear...especially considering I went with tube line stage & phono preamp to add some “lushness” to the revealing nature of my CS3.5’s. 
Thanks again & please let me know how those 600M’s go along with your Levinson. 
Arvin 

Hello fellow Thiel owners!

Just wanted to give you all an update on my system: today, I was finally able to secure a second ARC D240 MKII ss amp to go with my current one.  As an added plus, I bought it locally from a fellow Thiel owner (he has mint CS 5i's in one of his systems...gorgeous speakers that sounded even better) and was able to spend time with him listening to some jazz and talking about our great hobby.

Running these amps in bridged mode will give each of my CS 3.5's 480 watts @ 8 ohms.  Mated to my tube ARC LS7 line-stage and tube ARC PH3 phono preamp, I'm feeling that I have a system that I can finally be satisfied with from both power and sonic standpoints.

Unfortunately, will have to wait for the weekend before I can listen to my system in "monoblock" configuration as business travel calls, but will definitely let you guys know how it goes once it's all setup and running.

Finally, to contribute to the cable discussion, I'm using Audioquest Golden Gate RCA for all my source interconnects, MIT Terminator 2 RCA interconnects from my LS7 to the Thiel 3.5 Bass Equalizer and to the amps.  Speaker wires are MIT AVT-3.

Thanks and hope you are all doing well!

Arvin C

I, too, am interested to hear more about the Spectral-Thiel experience...really, more about Spectral period! Have to admit, Spectral was a brand I knew nothing about until I jumped back into the hobby full force about 4 years ago. Since then, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a brand with such reverence from both owners and non-owners. Definitely a brand I hope to audition some day...

@nkonor & @rascs:


How does Spectral's high-bandwidth, ultra fast designs manifest themselves in the final sound that one hears from the system?  Again, I have not as yet had the pleasure of listening to a Spectral system, but my intrigue grows the more I learn & read about them.

Thanks for any thoughts!

Hello all!

This past weekend, I finally got a chance to hook up the second ARC D240 MKII amp to my system. In bridged-mono mode, the amps effectively double their power to 480 watts/each at 8 ohms...very powerful indeed!

This was immediately noticeable in the way my 3.5’s performed...low level detail and clarity was outstanding as was the overall "slam" on bass-heavy passages. Also peculiar was the effect this had on the Thiel Bass Equalizer: before, I didn’t really notice a difference between the 40Hz - 20Hz settings. Now, there was a definite change in the character of the presentation.

As far as the rest of the performance, the soundstage seemed to grow deeper, with instrumentation more layered and pronounced than before. I never got the sense that the Thiels "disappeared", but they are definitely less "in your face" than before. However, the details and nuances in well recorded materials are even more noticeable, even more defined than before.

The overall sense I get is that the extra control and headroom that this bridged-mono configuration has on my speakers has been well worth the wait. I had been searching for the better part of 18 months for another amp to match with my own and in this case, patience was well rewarded. Before, I had always wondered "How can I make my Thiels sing better?" Now, I am completely satisfied in knowing they are getting all the power and current they need.

For reference sake, here’s what my little listening area looks like:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/arvincastro/sets/72157713245305663

Going into this, I set a price limit for $1000/component to see how good of a system I could assemble on a modest budget. While I know I am decidedly on the "vintage" path in terms of ARC gear, the high-quality, fit and finish and performance remain as good as anything I could hope to get for the price. Plus, I just love the way it sounds!

Thanks for letting me share...Hope everyone’s doing well!

Arvin C

Hello all!

Want to chime in on the amp topic, using my personal experience: while they don’t get enough love when compared to their tube-based brothers, I have to say that the solid-state models from Audio Research make ideal amps for our Thiels, no matter how difficult to drive. I don’t believe there isn’t a solid-state AR model that doesn’t double down from 8 to 4 to 2 power-wise. I had no problems driving my 3.5’s with one D240 MKII amp...getting a second one to run them in monoblock configuration pretty much confirmed that one can never have too much power or current when it comes to Thiels. The best part though: Audio Research solid-state amps are a relative bargain compared to their tube amps as well as many other “vintage” offerings from Levinson, Krell, etc. Match these up with AR tube pre-amps like I have for system synergy and you’ll have some of that tube-warmth with all the power and dynamics solid-state offers. 

Just my $0.02 worth. Hope everyone’s doing well!

Arvin

Hello all!
Just wanted to say that there is a good looking pair of 3.5’s for sale over at US Audio Mart.  Speakers, the Electronic Bass module, spikes & original copy of 3.5 instruction/data brochure...very complete offering. Speakers are in Chicago & are listed for $699.  Nice price for everything!

Know there have been a few posters & lurkers on this thread looking for 3.5’s & these look like they deserve to go to a good home.

Hope you & yours are all doing well & staying safe...Happy Thanksgiving!

Arvin

Hello, all!

I know it’s been a while since I last posted/contributed, but I have certainly kept up by lurking in the shadows.

It is with some regret that I will no longer be a Thiel owner as of tomorrow.  Earlier this afternoon, after a couple of months of toying around with the idea of replacing my Thiel 3.5’s, I was presented with an opportunity that I couldn’t pass up and bought a new pair of Kef Blade 2’s.  I find it fitting that I’m moving on from a speaker that was among the references of its day, to one that has been universally acclaimed as a reference performer, with state-of-the-art design and engineering of today.

I want to say Thank You to jafant, Tom Thiel, unsound…all of you.  I learned so much and truly enjoyed all the interaction.  This thread remains such a shining example of what a forum should be about…and it’s all because of the posters here.

I will continue to lurk, continue to stay notified of new posts, etc.  I may no longer own Thiels (for now), but I still want to be associated with fine, fellow audiophiles like all of you.

Thanks again and stay well…Enjoy the music!

Arvin