Thiel Owners

New owner, 1st post.  

I've been enjoying my 3.7s immensely.  Always been a Thiel fan, and the 3.7s were near the top of my want list for awhile.  Found a pair of Les Paul's a few months ago and just couldn't resist. Best upgrade to my system in quite some time.

Anyways, thanks to jafant for turning me on to this thread.  Still combing through it, but looking forward to hearing more from other Thiel owners.  The company may not be the same, but its clear from this thread that Jim Thiel's legacy is as strong as ever..

Happy listening,

David

Now that I've read through this entire thread (!!) I feel it's probably okay for me to chime in a bit more about my 3.7 impressions and my set up. Let me start, however, by saying how great it is to read so many passionate posts about Thiel speakers and accompanying equipment. And as for the OP,  I'm convinced you're either an amateur museum curator of Thiel 2.4se speakers or the ghost of Jim Thiel himself, just doing his best to keep the legacy alive.  Regardless, I'm glad you reached out to me and clued me in on this great thread.

Regarding my own system, first let me say how surprised I was to see I'm apparently alone in my use of a pure Class A amp to drive my Thiels.  Not that I'm opining one type is better than the other - I just find it interesting there aren't more owners out there with similar set ups.  My Accuphase A50 is rated at 50/100/200 at 8/4/2 ohms, so it has oodles of current to deal with the 3.7s.  Mated with my tube preamp (a Cary SLP-05), I'm in sonic bliss regardless of the situation.  My music tastes vary from rock to jazz to classical to country - really, just about everything - and I've never found my system wanting.  In terms of describing the sound, I think the best description I can give is how it makes me feel when I listen to something.  For example, while reading this thread I was playing Thelonious Monk's "Solo" on vinyl, and I could literally feel him banging on the keys as if he were punching each of them with his fingertips.  The music from these speakers just grab you without ever wanting to let go. Like most of you, I've listened to many speakers, but to me these are the first "box" speakers I've heard that literally almost disappear. As someone else pointed out, it's similar to what I experienced when listening to Maggies, but with (IMO) better soundstage and speed. Simply put, it's just a helluvah speaker. 

There's a lot of talk about cabling here.  I do believe it makes a difference, but to me it's in the fractions and not whole percentages.  That being said, I'm not as bold as prof - I run my system fully balanced using cables from Acoustic Zen and Wireworld.

I also use a subwoofer.  It may not be necessary for 90% of the music I listen to, but there are occasions when I'm glad it's there.  My sub is a REL Stentor III with the crossover set to 32hz.  I use REL's speakon cable which is directly connected to my amp's speaker terminals.  Is it perfectly seamless?  All I can say is nobody has ever been able to tell that it's on, so I'll take that as a sign that it's properly dialed in.

Last thing I'd like to add is how great it would be to hear more about what people are listening to on their Thiels.  As much as I love to geek out on the audiophile stuff (and trust me, I do), I also love being turned on to new artists or albums that others have discovered.  So when you're talking about your Thiels, please try to throw in a word or two about what you're currently playing.  Just my two cents, of course..

Cheers,

David 

Nice! Beck’s Sea Change is on my regular rotation. Haven’t checked out Morning Phase yet. The Suzanne Vega might also need to be added. And I’ll be searching Tidal for those last 4..

If you haven’t already, give Rickie Lee Jones’ Flying Cowboys a try. One of my favorites..

Unsound,

I've ready many of your insightful posts on this thread, and while I agree with much of what you say, there are some assumptions that I do take some issue with.

First, I never meant to imply that others should use Class A.  I merely was making an observation that I was surprised I was the only one.  Yes, Class A amps are expensive, and yes, they run very hot.  That I get.  But not everyone on this thread has those issues.  In fact, many here have touted Pass Labs, for example, but none seem to mention their XA amps.  I found that curious, that's all.

Second, let's be clear about the Accuphase Class A amps.  They are pure class A, and they do not halve when the impedance drops.  They double down, all the way to 2 ohms (as I said in my post, mine goes to 200 watts at 2 ohms).  I certainly agree those amps that are Class A A/B that halve as you suggest would be problematic with most Thiels.  Thankfully my amp is not one of them.

Lastly, I really don't understand your axiom that one should always double the minimum amount of recommended wattage.  One could equally suggest that the 100 minimum watt requirement is actually a conservative rating intended to ensure that those with lesser quality amps have enough power,  Indeed, in my opinion, quality is truly the key here (which is also exactly what Jim Thiel said in his comments on the 3.7s).  Saying you need a minimum of 200 watts when your room size, listening position and personal volume levels say otherwise really doesn't make much sense to me. I'm not trying to be argumentative here.  I just think a quality amp that can handle a 2 ohm load in a medium size room does not need to approach the numbers that you suggest above.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Bottom line, it's what your own two ears are happy with.  As long as we're all enjoying the process and the music, that's all that matters.

Cheers,

David

Love the suggestions by the way.  I've got lots of listening to do!

Unsound,

No need to apologize! We just have some differing opinions, that’s all.

I don’t agree that 50 watts at 8 ohms (or 200 watts at 2 ohms) "really isn’t much at all." Your 3.6 speakers have a sensitivity rating of 86dbs. My 3.7s are rated at 90dbs. I’m sure you would agree that’s not an insignificant difference. So yes, maybe for you, in your room with your speakers and at your listening levels, 50 watts may be inadequate. My Accuphase has a digital meter, so I’m able to track just how many watts it’s peaking at depending on volume. Last time I checked, I was pushing over 105 dbs while keeping it under 100 watts and seated approximately 10 feet from my speakers. The 3.7s have been tested to drop under 3 ohms, so I know my Accuphase had much more to give. I don’t know what level you like to listen to, but that’s the equivalent sound to a jackhammer, which is enough to require earplugs for most sane people. In other words, in many ways we’re comparing apples to oranges, which may be why we have such different opinions.

I too have been at this for a few decades, and over that time I’ve come to the conclusion that, in my opinion, there’s too much reliance on wattage when determining whether an amp is sufficient enough. It’s certainly a relevant factor, but it isn’t always the most important one.

I know you’re not trying to tell or convince me otherwise. But there are a lot of readers on this sight who are looking for information, and just as your thoughts give great insight, I think there are valid counter opinions to the points you make. My intent was only to share some of them, just as you are. And I definitely agree we’re both likely to be more on the same page than we are not. Just different journeys, I suppose.

Sorry unsound - for some reason I thought you had the 3.6s, not the 3.5s..

oblgny - just curious what you like better about the 3.5s then the 3.6s?  

As for me, I'm 46.  I started early when I mowed lawns to get a pair of Adcom separates and Canton speakers.  Been hooked ever since..

Hey corvette, good to hear from you.  Nice to see you're putting your Les Pauls to good use, regardless of the room you're in. Sounds like you've made the best of your situation!

Prof,

Just curious what kind of sub you have and the steps you’ve taken so far to integrate. I too had a tough time, and still tweak my settings/position occasionally. Always interested to see the steps others take when setting up their subs. 

I also saw saw that thread and had the same immediate concerns. Any idea on the approximate costs for the replacement parts?

Prof,

Thanks for the pricing info.  I think your timing is spot on given the not-so-pleasant (yet not surprising) news.

I've struggled for years about going down the path of adding some kind of DSP, but I just can't wrap my head around digitizing my analog setup, even if its just a small part of it.  Would be interested in hearing your impressions if you decide to take the jump.

Cheers,

David

Go to hifisharks.com, type in the model, and filter by North America.  It will show you what's currently for sale and what's sold over the last few years (covers virtually all the sites except craigslist).  You can choose the currency too. Great site for pricing/hunting..

Sorry, it's hifishark.com. I'm guessing you'll be around $6k US.

I have a REL stentor III placed in the front left corner.  I used an SPL meter to match the volume and have the crossover set at 30Hz. Speakers are 3.7s, and room size is 16x20.

jafant - just sent you a reply.

Dan - thanks for the note.  I use an Accuphase A50 amp, a Cary SLP-05 pre, an Ayre P5xe phono pre, a VPI Aries II with a Shelter cartidge and an Ayre qb9 DSD dac. Kind of an eclectic mix, but it works for me :)

Say it ain't so, corvette! I get the reason, but to me, those Les Paul speakers are a work of art.  Must be hard to see them go..

As for mine, I've been playing with speaker placement over the past few weeks, and (for now) have determined that I prefer them on the long wall of my listening room.  The room is roughly 15 1/2 x 20, and initially I had them on the short wall spread 8' apart with about 2 1/2' from the rear wall and 3 1/2' from the sides.  On the long wall, I keep them 8 1/2' apart. 3' from the rear and 5 1/2' from the sides.  My listening position is also moved back, from around 9' to closer to 10'. 

I've found that the soundstage and imaging have both dramatically improved by this setup.  I was concerned about rear wall reflection now that my listening position is up against a wall, so I purchased a combo absorber/diffuser panel to hang behind me.  I haven't suffered any high frequency fatigue or noticed any timing issues since I hung the panel, so I guess it's working.

Thieliste - I’ve heard an Ayre mxr/kxr combo with the 3.7s and it sounded great. I imagine the 20s will be even better. 

I second thieliste - Ayre matches quite well with Thiel.  My local dealer always paired his Thiel 3.7s with an all-Ayre setup and it sounded fantastic.  I too have many Ayre components in my system, including a recent change from my Cary SLP-05 to the Ayre KX5 twenty preamp.  My 3.7s have never sounded better.  

Been awhile since I opened this thread. Looks like I have a lot to catch up on!

Hey jafant. Still running much of the same gear. Accuphase A50 for amplification, Ayre P5xe phono pre, and a VPI Aries/Ayre qb9 on the front end. Upgraded the Aries with a new fatboy tonearm and an Airtight PC7. It works for me :)

jafant - they work quite well together. Ayre’s output was measured by Stereophile at 150 ohms (balanced), whereas the Accuphase has a balanced input of 40k. The Ayre was much lower than the Cary, which tested higher than the specs showed (again according to Stereophile). 

Quick question (and forgive me if this has been asked and answered before) - when measuring the distance between the 3.7 (or 2.7) and the listening position, do you measure from the tweeter/midrange or the woofer?  I assume that it’s the tweeter, but given the slope of the speakers the measurement can change depending on the focal point.

Thanks,

David

Jafant,

I currently measure the same way you do.  From my ear(s), I measure just over 8 feet from where the base of the speaker is.  Speakers are also 8 feet apart (measured from the center of each speaker) and 2’ 6” from the back walls (measured from the closest point on the rear of the speaker, which is near the top).  After a lot of trial and error, I find that placing the speakers on the long wall provides the best results for me, so while I sacrifice some in terms of distance from the back wall, I enjoy 5’ of distance from each side wall (measured from the tweeter).  But since my room measures at 20x15, I don’t have much wiggle room in terms of distance from the wall behind the listening position and the distance behind the speakers.  I try to keep my ears at least 3 feet from the wall behind me, which I think makes a bigger difference than the distance behind the speakers. 

Long winded way of saying I’m curious if everyone measures the same way.  Do you measure from the outside of the cabinet, from the tweeter, from the center line, or a mix (like me) depending on which wall/speaker you’re looking at?  I’d love to hear Tom Thiel’s thoughts too..

Thanks,

David

Tom,

Thanks so much for weighing in.  I do enjoy a listening height of 3', which I noticed from your earlier posts is a critical factor in finding the sweet spot.  It also makes complete sense that there are many variables at play that have a greater impact on sound than focusing on precise placements.  But as you well know, we love to get lost in the details!  And with so much out there about distance from the walls, the listening position, and each speaker (including 3 full pages with 5 diagrams that Jim dedicated to it in my 3.7 manual), I just couldn't resist asking what people think the norm is (so thanks as well for mentioning you measure from the tweeter/midrange).  

Room treatments is probably my biggest missing element.  Presently I have an "acoustifuser" panel on my wall behind the listening spot that I purchased from Next Generation Acoustics, but nothing else to speak of besides some well position furniture and window shades.  Part of the issue is aesthetics (yes, it's a weakness), but it also is another rabbit hole that I fear I'll never get out of.  Of course, that also is where the fun lies..

Good stuff guys. Thanks for chiming in.

sdecker- instead of tilting the speakers, have you tried raising them altogether by a couple of inches so you can also maintain time/phase coherency? Or is there another disadvantage to doing it this way? Just curious..

I also find it interesting that you both toe in and you keep your speakers positioned equidistant in the corners. I prefer not to toe in mine, as I find it takes away from the width of the soundstage, but that’s just my personal preference. I also always heard that you shouldn’t place your speakers at the same distances to the side and back walls, but always questioned whether this was truly required when considering speaker placement.

sdecker - I was thinking more in terms of a butcher block or something similar to help raise the height, but I hear what you're saying.  

I'm also lucky in that I have my own dedicated room above the garage, but I still have to make it aesthetically pleasing for the missus.  Not that I'm complaining, of course..  

In terms of room size/speaker positions, I’ve played around with my 3.7s for quite some time and have settled on the following in my 15x20 room:

Speakers are placed along the long wall 32” out in front (measured from the rear of the speaker), 8.5’ between (from tweeter to tweeter) and approximately 5.75’ from each side wall. My listening position is 9’ away with a little over 2’ of space behind me. I have found this to be the optimal positioning for my room.

In terms of R2R Dacs, I recently updated to an MSB Analog DAC. Significant improvement from my Ayre QB-9.

Woah.. I had no idea I could upgrade my 3.7 coax.  Thieliste - any chance you can share a pick of the install?   And would it be worth the upgrade to my current 3.7s which are in perfect working order?

Thanks (and nice to see this thread is still active!),

 

David

Thieliste & tmsrdg - thanks for the replies.  Moving the new coax to the top of the upgrade list.

jafant- been extremely happy with the KX-5 Twenty.  Thanks for checking in.

Thanks for the clarification Tom.  How do I know if mine has the trim resistors?  I have the Les Paul versions.