There's a lot more bass in a 6.5" driver than most of you think

I have two sets of speakers with 2 pairs of six inch drivers.  They are great, but in my current listening room, my 25 x 30 living room with high ceilings,  subs are a must on much music. One pair is duplicated in my 12 x 12 bedroom with no subs needed, even without tone controls. I have actually considered using a big sub cabinet wired for stereo sets of 6.5 inch drivers, maybe 3 or 4 per channel, depending on the leftover crossovers I am still playing with.

There's no replacement for displacement.

You can get some very good low end with small drivers in a transmission line enclosure.  But you can't get level and transient response.   Can't do it.  

Which is why you want sub-woofers.  And not just one or two.  Each sub creates standing waves in a room.  So the frequency response is uneven throughout the room.  So what you want to do is to have multiple subs, so that their respective standing waves even things out in the room.   I have three subs for that reason.

If you want more level, you need bigger drivers.  If you don't need higher levels, you can get away with smaller drivers.  My subs have 10" drivers for instance, but with three of them, it meets my needs.

The bass response is impacted by a bunch of factors, driver design, cabinet design, listening environment volume, and a whole slew of other things.
My preference is a smaller driver since there typically isn't as much mass.  I typically get good results in my environment with 10 inch drivers.
But a 6 1/2 woofer is capable of playing 30hz in a small environment like a car.

I have found that the reason to use an active sub is not primarily to extend the bass frequencies, but because it adds greater transparency to the overall sound. I also find that it enhances the quality of the bass, and so it also helps with floor standing speakers that reach down adequately on their own. Why is this? I have no idea, but I heard confirmation of this from more experienced audiophiles. Perhaps it's because the active sub provides a sort of "bi-amping" for the lowest frequencies. 

It's the flat earth perspective Erik, no-one thinking properly could possibly be as obnoxious or noisome so consistently.

My speakers do have good low end, but compared to my cerwin vega D9’s, it’s not even close.

currently use Energy rc-70s’, bass is descent and right, fills my room nicely.

it is a huge front room, with vaulted 16” ceilings, sound is great!

 Drug up my old 1986 cerwin vega D-9’s 
not even close, not in the same town!

vega 15”’res are so tight, precise, deep, and loud, sure with specific music the Energy’s shine, then hook up the Vegas w Travers, derringer, king diamond, foghta, it’s not even close.

 But I love my Energy’s,  they are my grail towers!

....my 'semi-consciousness' dredges up the odd 'musical interlude' from time to time.....
Last night, This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3W1-Pco9Uk

I have no control over this....*G*....but I'm happy it did. ;)

Substitute 'Vivianne' for 'Marion' and Bob will appreciate the return to 'accuracy'....;)

Best, and better, J

...and best back to you, Eric. *S*  And, yes, I noted the cut vs. boost detail...it's all in how the parametric is set.  This I'm confident you know of this....;)

I've got an old SAE '2 band' (high & low) 2 channel set up in my shop area to tame my 'low rent' arrays into a 'reasonable' affair.  Beats trying to massage the receiver's tone controls to be acceptable. *G*

I will concur...an AMT is not a true ribbon, but they are less finicky and durable.  That, and they can go down to 500 hz before loosing 'credence' at least to my ears...

I don't discount your traps, oh no.  My current space makes such impractical; this Will change in the short future.  At that juncture, I shall respond in my typical 'knee of jerk' Xsperimental fashion. *G*

I have 'something' I want to try....;)   My take on 'nothing ventured, blame yourself' department. 

That, and a spouse that absolutely refuses to live in a 'studio'...so I have to be...'artful' about it...;)   Blobs (or even GIK panels) 'don't fly' well about her...(she's quite aware of 'hi-fi devious tricks' from living with me for wayyy long time...).

Subtlety in the Long Game.  And it works best if not permanent, so one can beat a hasty retreat....;)  We both (she & I) have our reasons.....

AMTs, not true ribbons.

Note though that they are cuts, not boosts. The point of the post was the speaker + room gain creates a lot more bass than we think. Also, don't discount the bass traps I have. :) It would be a much more complicated picture otherwise.

Best,
E

@erik_squires ....it didn’t register in my small, swelled ’n itchy brain, But....*G*

I Finally noticed that not only that the SNR-1’s have a ribbon tweeter....but "...using a pair of parametric notch filters...." was noted by yers unruly.

Not surprised that those speakers can be ’tweaked’ to ’go flat’.

My octave ’stand alone’ eq’s can’t do that....but the xover and the ’puter’s eq program can...;)  Both have parametric functions....

One of these days I ought to try to get an acceptable noise out of a Coke can....*L* I have enough eq at hand and on demand, I could probably excite a pineapple....*smirk*

(Sounds like one ’ell of a ’bar bet’.....)

Bass IS or, CAN BE directional.

*Hmmm* It’s very ’circumstantial’....and driven by frequency and the space it’s in.

"Now that I’ve got your attention..." *G*....

’Directional bass’, or the perception of it being such, is ’normal’ (IMHO....oh, forget that...IM not so HO....) for those used to ’direct radiating speakers; who then add ’sub(s)’ for ’punch’ and/or to fill in what they know should ’be there’ in ’that music’ (genre driven...bass guitar, drums...those sort of instruments).

As an ’omni’ sort of guy, who lives with ’sound in the round’ (so to shriek)....who also has dipoles (AMT drivers and a pair of Maggie’s) along with ’direct radiators’ for ’reference’s sake’....

...and a single sub. Small...6ish", ported, self-powered.

Frequency, as it lowers, undergoes a ’phase change’ of sorts. It becomes less directional and begins to ’omni’.

It’s beginning to respond to the physics of sound waves, and how they behave. Let me illustrate with a analogy, based in the physical properties of air...which acts like water.

They are the same thing, basically. You’re just able to walk around in one.*G* You ARE a ’fish out of water’....in the midst of a ’phase change’.

Think of sound’s frequency in terms of ’speed’; higher=faster, low=slower.
Speed zips past one in a given direction, bounces off of anything in it’s path, and dissipates. Slower, it tends to create vortices, swirling like the air over a stalling wing, ’losing it’s way’....and hangs around, due to the length of the waveform.

Now...consider this...

Listening to your equipment...(and I could care less what it is, how sophisticated it is or isn’t)....you are IN an enclosure. Being driven by units within their enclosure....

Which does indicate that ’the room’, in many ways, is just as (if not more) important to what you hear and how it’s perceived.

’Upper bass’ can seem ’more directional’ than ’Lower bass’ because, due to waveform, it is... and is effected by the space it’s in.

An example:
Ever notice, when approaching a venue in which the band is already playing...that you notice the low bass notes before anything else?

You go from ’omni’ to ’direct’. (Then you buy a drink, and stop paying attention. *L* I do it, too....) ;)

(I Know this is going to start ’something’, but I just had to go there...*L*)

noble100

I don’t like organ, so forget 20hz (I went for that like a nut when younger).

I love Jazz, the low instruments are piano say 30hz, double bass say 40hz, many instruments no lower than 60hz. I know where each musician, each bass player is standing, where the trombone is, ...

the thing about Bass is, despite all the proven physics, listening to my pair of 37 lb 15" woofers each with magnets 7" thick,

they can control the bass as much as make it.

And, better controlled 40hz gives better controlled overtones 80, 160, 320, ... (overones is why analog sounds more involving than digital IMO)

Bass IS or, CAN BE directional.

this is a sweet listen, I just got a fresh copy for Christmas).

https://www.amazon.com/Double-Bass-180-NIELS-HENNING-PEDERSEN/dp/B005CJQR8S/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=double+bass+pedersen&qid=1579746066&s=electronics&sr=8-1

Keeping bass, or as another member here clarified, the bass overtones directional is why I do not like ports. If ports, front facing.

Now lets get to producing bass without roll off, keeping it at proper volume to adjacent, other instruments. This is where smaller woofers cannot perform.

Sooooo, if getting some decent bass, IN YOUR ROOM, from 6", then a pair of DIRECTIONAL subs, located adjacent to the mains, Not too big (that’s why I mentioned i.e. 10"), can extend a STEREO experience to relatively equal lower bass!!!!

A single, or too large pair of subs, poorly located because too big, will lose the potential for directionallity, and lose the directionality the overtones of those fundamentals provide.

You are hearing 40hz at proper level to other instruments, by itself perhaps not directional, but it’s 80 and 160 and .... tell your mind where that 40 is originating! Especially if the fundamental 40 is tightly controlled, thus big magnet, servo, ...

I’ve been a long-time fan of Merlin VSM two ways. The VSM employs a 6.5" Scanspeak 8545 in combination with a line-level equalizer that boosts LF output by 5db, providing useful output into the low 30s. I’m following @theaudiotweak with an order for early-production Purifi 6.5" to try in the VSM cabinet as an alternative to Scanspeak. Early reviews of the Purifi suggest that this driver is capable of lower LF distortion and better dynamics than any 6.5" to date. Its sensitivity, frequency response curve, and dimensions are not too far off the 8545 to be a "drop in."

      " treating the room instead of trying to compensate the bad room with a limited speaker is the path to long term satisfaction ime"

   I believe the same and it makes a lot of sense to me.  I hope we're all correct, since I just spent about $3,500 in GIK acoustic room treatments which should arrive and be installed in about 2-3 weeks.

I'll let you know,
       Tim

treating the room instead of trying to compensate the bad room with a limited speaker is the path to long term satisfaction ime

I agree.

The Alpair 12P would likely fail in bass response given a conventional cabinet, i.e. ported, bass reflex, sealed box. I was actually expecting that sort of performance from them regardless of the fact that they were being mounted in a folded horn. If I had no experience with folded horns in the past, I would come to the same conclusion as you. FWIW, I owned a pair of JBL 4343, you know, the ones with 15" woofers? Never could get decent bass performance from them. Owned them in 3 separate houses, with different amplification too. Yah, I wouldn't have believed it either.

ive compared hundreds of speakers at this point, ive never heard any 6 inch 2 way sounds anything but a toy vs a pair of real Tannoy, JBL, or whatever big speaker. so you either drive a lawnmower or a ferrari, your choice

treating the room instead of trying to compensate the bad room with a limited speaker is the path to long term satisfaction ime

someone mentionned the alpair 12p, I loved my pair when i had them. but to say it has tremendous bass just goes to show how relative this hobby is. jbl l300 has tremendous bass, not alpair 12p 

I finally got the bass that I really like. It is from a folded horn design that is only 40T  15D  10W. It uses an 8" driver, but here is the kick. I had the pleasure of being able to try different drivers in this cabinet. One of them was an Audio Nirvana driver which is a respectable driver when used in the right cabinet. This marriage wasn't good at all. Muddy bass. No problem, I went to a Mark Audio 12P 8" driver. Here is what bothered me. The actual cone area is 4 3/4". Crap, says I, why even try it? In short, it produces incredibly accurate bass in my room as deep as I want. Don't understand all the physics, etc, but I have no desire to try the next driver (8" Silver Flute). Size matters, not here.

Kenjit

I don't know what I like most about your posts, the personally insulting tone or the flat earth perspective you have on science and engineering.

Best,

Erik

     I think most bookshelf speakers, just like most tower speakers, begin at a disadvantage in terms of providing good bass response at the designated listening position regardless of the size of the bass drivers; which is that the drivers for all frequencies are positioned in a single cabinet in some sort of fixed alignment. The bass drivers acually require their own cabinets and the capacity to be independently positioned in the room in relation to the listening position, in order for bass performance to be optimized. Ideally, these independent modules would also have independent controls for volume, crossover frequency and continuously variable phase settings, just as good quality traditional subs possess for optimizing performance and seamless integration with the midrange/treble drivers on the main speakers.   
     The main issue with this is that the optimum position for the midrange and tweeter drivers, in relation to the listening position, for midrange/treble and imaging are highly unlikely to be the optimum position for the bass drivers in relation to the listening position. 
     If good bass response at the listening position utilizing the much larger bass drivers of tower speakers is highly unlikely because of the above, I see absolutely no reason to believe that using smaller bass drivers, even multiple smaller bass drivers, would be expected to perform well.
     However, I'm certain that even a good quality pair of subs with 10" drivers are capable of vastly exceeding the bass performance at the listening position than the bass drivers on most bookshelf and tower main speakers are capable of providing, regardless of their size. The primary cause of my certainty is the tremendous bass performance advantages gained from the independent room positioning capabilities of sub drivers and subs.  
     One of the main advantages is ensuring that there are no bass room modes (room locations with obvious bass peaks, dips or nulls) at the listening seat.  It's easy to check if your current listening seat is positioned at or near a room bass mode; just listen to the bass response at locations near your listening seat and check if the bass quality varies at various other spots in around your room from.  

Tim

Hi @adameos

Is there truth to the notion that a smaller bass driver (6.5” - 10” etc.) will be quicker sounding / more resolving than 15” drivers?

No, but that’s what we are touching on here. Less bass = low risk.

I’ve heard many biG horn / compression driver JBLs with 15”woofers that sound very fast and agile in the bass.

There is simply no substitute for surface are when it comes to deep bass and high output levels, especially in a test chamber or outdoors with no reflection points.

The trouble really is the room. Small rooms, untreated are much friendlier to smaller speakers with limited bass output. And that’s the blog post. :)

I think I read somewhere (KEF I believe) that the natural resonant frequency of a 15” woofer is lower so therefore it generates lower frequency bass with more ease? Is there truth to the notion that a smaller bass driver (6.5” - 10” etc.) will be quicker sounding / more resolving than 15” drivers? I’ve heard many biG horn / compression driver JBLs with 15”woofers that sound very fast and agile in the bass. I had a pair of KEF Maidstone R109 that had huge 15” drivers that sounds very agile and ‘big’ too.

 I used a DIY speaker as my example, otherwise many would accuse me of shilling for a particular brand

you used your own DIY designs. And all the effort youve spent making that response curve as flat as a pancake has been a waste because that was the wrong curve. You will need it completely retuned now. We need to examine the off axis curve too.

Thank you all for participating so actively, especially those who can share personal, specific experiences and who read the nuance in my original post.

I was thinking of something that I think has helped this discussion: I used a DIY speaker as my example, otherwise many would accuse me of shilling for a particular brand. At the same time, I don't mean to imply only this speaker can output this much bass in a modest listening space, I'm sure many others can as well.

...the interesting thing about line arrays is when all those small speakers combine for bass lines.  If one doesn't get too enthusiastic with the drive levels, they respond quite nicely...

I remember my 901's of eons past....not all that accurate, but plenty of it...;)

You are talking about many different things in this post: smallish apartment rooms, added subwoofers, and room treatments.
Sure, smallish rooms can better support smallish speakers.
Room treatment in every room can have a dramatic effect on SQ.
Subwoofers can increase SQ of big and small loudspeakers. A sealed speaker system in a larger room will never produce low end energy by itself.

There are many speakers systems with smaller woofers but the better 1’s use multiple smaller drivers instead of 1. Also, the reason why these systems can produce low frequencies is due to the port setup, which can increase lower bass frequencies. I used to have the Usher mini dancer 2’s with multiple 7” drivers and they would produce low levels of bass energy for its size, but not the cleanest bass output. I tuned the port with acoustic fill and added 2 Rel subs. This was in a treated dedicated 27x16x15’ foot. I sold them and went with the larger Ushers with the 11” woofer, much better tighter lower end and no need for subs.

elliotbnewcombjr:"Before, large room, he was thinking of adding a single subwoofer, now not feeling the need. If only 1 sub, I think it would add mud. A pair of small directional subs, say 10", self powered, adjustable crossover and individual volume, could extend the bass keeping it directional."

Hello elliotbnewcombjr,

" A pair of small directional subs, say 10", self powered, adjustable crossover and individual volume, could extend the bass keeping it directional."
     What? Did you just invent a new 10" sub that defies the laws of physics? Do you think you just point them in the general direction of your ears and the bass soundwaves just travel like a beam of light directly to your ears? C’mon Man, bass below about 80 Hz is not even directional meaning we cannot localize it. The bass below about 80 Hz is actually the opposite of directional and is, in fact, omnidirectional which means the bass soundwaves radiate out from the sub driver in all directions at once. The bass spreads out from the driver in all directions at once forming a spherical pattern and does not travel solely in a straight line, directional path as the soundwaves above about 80 Hz do.
     There’s also some other pesky laws of physics to consider, such as the length of soundwaves increase as its frequency descends and decreases in length as its frequency ascends (soundwave length is inversely related to frequency). Also, our brains can’t even perceive a sound at all until a complete full cycle soundwave is detected in the room by our ears and multiple full cycle soundwaves need to be detected before a change in pitch is perceived.
     Based on the speed of sound of about 760 mph, this calculates to a 20 Hz deep bass tone full cycle soundwave being 56 feet long and a 20,000 Hz high treble tone full cycle soundwave being a fraction of an inch long. Given these facts, it’s not very hard to comprehend that the very long and omnidirectional bass soundwaves behave very differently in any given room than the much shorter midrange/treble soundwaves behave in any given room.
     All of the above almost guarantee that the highly omnidirectional bass full cycle soundwaves launched by a speaker’s bass driver into the room, some of them likely being even longer than any of the room’s dimensions, will bounce or reflect off of one or more room boundaries (floor, ceiling walls) prior to reaching and being detected by our ears and our brains processing it as a perception of a bass sound tone. This is true whether the soundwave is launched from a 5" or 15" driver.
     More to the point of this thread, however, it does seem logical to believe that a larger driver would be much more capable and efficient in reproducing the correct bass frequency soundwave amplitude (intensity level or volume level of the frequency) than a smaller driver would. IOW, reproducing deep bass notes requires moving a lot of air. Given identical excursion range distance (the distance a driver is able to move forward and backward like a piston.), a driver that has a larger diameter will move more air than a driver with a smaller diameter will. 
     The only way for a smaller driver to move more air, to equal the total volume of air moved by a larger diameter driver, is for its excursion range distance to be increased. However, the excursion range distance of drivers are not unlimited. There are factors that limit the maximum excursion range distance of a driver and this specific excursion range distance measurement, along with the specific driver diameter, also limit the maximum bass frequency depth the driver is capable of reproducing.

NEWS FLASH SOLUTION: 
     A pair of good quality subs, properly positioned and configured, are capable of providing exceptionally good bass performance in any room and seamlessly integrate with any pair of main speakers at a single designated listening position. Utilizing two pairs of good quality subs will perform about twice as well as a single pair, with near sota bass performance along with providing this bass improvement throughout your entire room and not just at a single designated listening position.

Word to your mother,
Tim

I owned a pair of the well regarded Silverline Audio Preludes for years and they had an extremely coherent full range sound from D'Appolito arrayed 3.75" titanium/magnesium woofers. It seems that the overall design relative to how the cabinet interacts to bolster the low end is what's important, and those things went down to the mid 40s clearly. I only replaced them for higher efficiency needs (small single ended tube amp). 

As we all know, most of the bass we hear (tone, texture, definition) occurs between 50-200 hz...which is easily done by any decent 6" woofer in almost any size room....so, I completely agree with Eric as he isn't saying that 6 inchers are the best sounding solution for every room and every situation...just that they may be better than you suspect.

I think we also have to remember that a 6" driver in a sealed box, vs a ported box vs a transmission line box is going to behave/sound different in each situation with the transmission line being the most likely to give the most toneful and powerful bass (but also the hardest to implement).


The bass we feel (and that which causes ear pressurization) can often be done by a 6" woofer...if the room is the correct size...even remembering that the loudness of the bass actually needs to be more than the mids/highs to create the proper sound balance.

The idea that there is no "replacement for displacement" probably holds true in bigger rooms...but even then, if you runs your mains at full range to get the great tone and if you have a sub, cross it below 40/50hz to get the feel and pressure...you get the best of both worlds...and having low bass, surprisingly, enhances the sense of ambience which adds realism.

long term, ive never been happy with 6 inch woofers. even if the bass at first is quite decent. tit has nothing to do with extension either. real bass need to move air

no replacement for displacement.

There seems to be some confusion in a couple of post of bass vs sub bass,  as Erik posted,   he is 100 percent accurate. 

Looking at specifically a 6 1/2. 
There is a problem on moving air for real impact in larger rooms.... Of course Erik qualified Apartment dwellers or some home theater use. 
To get a 6 1/2 to truly go down (and you can),  it requires some mass to get the fs down, which kills sensitivity,  it then requires some good excursion limits and decent size coil to get some power handling..... Its a real balancing act to create a 6 1/2 that does it all as far as just a sub bass perspective.  
Of course multiple drivers move more air,  several 6 1/2's could make a very good sub.... I used multiple 4 inch at one time just to make a point.... I had several 4 inch in series/parallel configuration that would get into the mid 20's.  
In general,  a good 6 will get you into the mid 30's and do a very good job for bass through midrange until your room just gets too big and needs more cone area to move more air. 

BTW, anyone notice how damn smooth that bass response is??


Ty GIK acoustics and a semi-open room. :)

With room gain, I'm measuring into the mid-30s and it sounds it...very solid not muddy at all.

@Crustycoot

That's what I'm talking about. Smaller speakers can integrate a lot better into a room, and leave you more satisfied with less effort.  The combination of better matching the room gain, plus not disturbing the dragons in the depths (room modes) is a big big win for a lot of consumers.

There are a lot of ways of getting great, deeper bass in a room, but they don't come easy and they don't come cheap.


Best,
E

I work in a high end store, but do not care to pay the cost for anything we sell, even at half retail.  So I built speakers using components from Parts Express, including their pre-fab crossovers.  I used the 4 ohm Reference Series 7" aluminum cone woofer, and their 1 cu. ft. cabinet (since discontinued) with a vented alignment with an f3 of 39 Hz.  With room gain, I'm measuring into the mid-30s and it sounds it...very solid not muddy at all.  I settled on Morel's integrated "Twee-Mid" and made the system bi-ampable.  With zero engineering, but a lot of experience in audio, I came up with something I feel closely conveys the sound I hear at Boston Symphony Hall when I play live recordings of concerts I actually attended and heard performed live.  To me that's the gold standard.
I took my home-brew speakers in to the store and compared them to a variety of contenders...they held up rather well.  They did not perform up to my personal favorite, the Focal Sopra No.1, but they cost me one third of what those would...at half price!
I write this to support the OP's claim that satisfying bass can be obtained with relatively small woofers.  But also to remind that a reasonable cabinet volume is needed...mini monitors mine ain't...and that room size is a factor...mine is only 2000 cu. ft. (plus openings to other spaces).

@three_easy... Actually, one Can 'do art' with 1 color...but that's a different discussion for another forum.  And really a network time waster that we shan't launch into Here....*G* ;)

@erik_squires ....Thank You. *S*  I've been concentrating my foray into a smaller Walsh DIY driver based on 6" drivers.  The properly sized (proportional) and shaped cone works out to the surface area of approx. a 9" dia. cone of 'conventional' design....and it works. *S*

Bass? Yes....Lower frequencies?  Not really....without opting to the current 'Ohm' configurations, MHO is I'm 'asking' a larger cone to be a 'one-trick pony' and do Everything.  Flawlessly.

Not likely.  And that's why I hand off those fq. to....Yes, a 6" sub. *G*

More accurate, controlled response.  It's the only thing that can 'keep pace' with my Heil AMT's.

I have noticed that if one desires 'room-filling' bass lines in a larger space, you'll likely opt for a larger sub driver.  You need to induce more 'air motion' into said space to create the same effect.  'Big' for 'big'....

It's all a 'work in progress', but I'm emboldened by the response of a listener when exposed to my Walsh 2-ways vs. a pair of small Maggie's...

"Which do you prefer?"

"Yours....sound more 'real'."

I Will carry on....;)

The room.

My friend has a pair of custom speakers, each a pair of 6" woofers. Upstairs, very large room, high ceilings, no side walls, carpeted floor, the imaging was terrific, but a bit bass shy.

He moved his system to a smaller room, lower ceiling, closer walls, and the bass is definitely stronger, the imaging not as great as the big room.

Before, large room, he was thinking of adding a single subwoofer, now not feeling the need. If only 1 sub, I think it would add mud. A pair of small directional subs, say 10", self powered, adjustable crossover and individual volume, could extend the bass keeping it directional.

Bring music with strong clear bass you are familiar with. Listen, hmmm, sounds right. You cannot tell how showroom demos will sound in your room, if possible get the dealer to loan you his demos, (already broken in) even for a short time, or allow return of new pair. You will know ’essentially’ how much bass reinforcement your room will give right away (if new, perhaps break-in period needed).

Imaging. Small 6" allows a narrow front width, allows better imaging. Adding a pair of small self powered subs takes the bass load away from both the speakers and the amp, thus the smaller mains can do a better job.

The 7-inch woofer in my Spendor D7s produces much lower (into the upper 20Hz range) and dynamic bass than the 12-inch driver and 15-inch passive radiator in my Klipsch Forte III (38Hz).  It's not even close.  The Spendors are tight, detailed, never fall apart at higher volume, and produce wonderful imaging.  The Forte IIIs are relaxed, sound like live music, and completely immerse you in the experience.  Both are music and both couldn't be more different.  Evaluating bass quality in a vacuum is like trying to describe art with only one color.

It's also worth mentioning that all the bass response and crossover simulation is done on a computer. So there's no effort required by the so called designer. The software does it all for you. 

What nigels SNR 1 really proves is how easy it is to be a speaker designer. All he has done is put a set of high end scanspeaks into a wooden box. Thats 50% of the job. I assume he didnt cut the wood himself either.

The crossover is simply a matter of taste. Although the graph of the SNR 1 shows an almost ruler flat curve which clearly betrays Eriks desire to boast about what he has achieved. The irony being that a flat response is not correct. So all that effort that has gone into achieving it, has been a waste.

Assuming low distortion, a small driver can either go low or go loud.  Most small woofer systems have relatively high distortion as they go low and cannot achieve high SPLs.  In average sized rooms and for most listeners it's a reasonable compromise.

Of course folks what we’re talking about here is what happens to a speaker in a room, or what Troels Gravesen calls "room gain." That is, the difference in a speaker’s response between the anechoic measurement, which is usually the -3 dB spec cited, and the completely room acoustic dependent response, which is what I measure in the blog post.

You can’t violate the laws of physics, and we aren’t. A speaker in a room sounds entirely different than it does in a measuring lab, and that’s where so many of our troubles come into play as we look for deeper, bigger bass.

The more of us see and know about it, the more audiophiles will get good buying advice, and more of them will be happier.

That’s the goal.

I’ll let you know what my the smaller advents sound like when I get them. Ebay score with 9.5 inch acoustic suspension woofer designed by the great Henry kloss....I hear they were renown for some marvelous bass. Stereophile did a throw back to the smaller advents and were blown away by the bass response of this relatively small speaker, although it measures a bit larger than today’s typical bookshelves being that its 20 inches high etc. It can supposedly get into the 30’s with relative ease....

I have the Soliloquy 6.3i pair. 6.5 woofer, 6.5 mid, and a 1” silk dome tweeter. I am not sure, but everywhere I look them up it says they are rated down to 25HZ. They are ported in the rear so I keep them 2-3 feet off the rear wall. They sound amazing!

The Devialet cheats!!! :D


OK, so the two 7" probably have about the same effective area as a 10", but you are right, they have massive excursion capability, much more so than any other 7" speaker should have.

I heard a Devialet Phantom today.  It's a $3k, 4500W bluetooth speaker that absolutely blew my mind.  The two bass "engines" are about 6-7' diameter.  Frequency response is a real 14Hz (-6dB).  Very impressive for its size.  You should've seen the excursion on those drivers!  

I’m just stating what they found when reviewing the speaker (the 225’s) and in my own listening room I have to agree that Peter comeau (the designer) did a hell of a job with the budget he had to work with to design a speaker that can satisfy most. As herb Reichert put it, it’s an audio conissuer component.
Certainly there are of course better speakers! But for $449 you will be hard pressed to find one that sounds this good for that kind of cash outlay period.
To me, I find it far more satisfying and rewarding to not have to spend a fortune yet get a large slice of audio heaven. I grin every time I listen to these darn things, they are hard to walk away from and just keep you wanting to listen...I think that is what this hobby is supposed to be about really. Not who spent the most on this and that. You do not need to spend a ton to get quality, not in today’s hifi world.
There are numerous components I could list that fit this mold, including the outstanding Hana EL cartridge, the discontinued Shure m97xe cartridge. the musical fidelity v90 dac, and the AKG k550 headphones to name a few. Ton of quality for not a lot of dough.....another one was the marantz pm6005, a killer integrated amp that I unfortunately sold. 

one reviewer was astounded to see usable bass frequency output down to about 31.5 hz

The woofer would need to move a huge distance to do that. Why push a small woofer to its limit when you could just use a bigger woofer? Do you think you can have your cake and eat it?

In my experience small woofers are not satisfying for long.  There's something wrong with the punch they produce.  Small woofer speakers that produce deep bass rely heavily on port output and that is slow and low resolution.  I don't think you need a huge woofer but 8" is the minimum for reasonably deep bass and punch that can satisfy long-term.  Surface area is very important.