@rvpiano : Agree. It's a really hard call to said this musician/player or a band when were recorded were: tepid or sound tepid, compared against what? their self in live events or other recordings?
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The very best sound: Direct to Disc
Since I got a new cartridge (Clear Audio Virtuoso) i’ve rediscovered the Sheffield and RR Direct Disc albums in my collection.
Wow! they put everything else to shame. I picked up about twenty Sheffield D2D’s when Tower Records went out of business for a song (no pun intended.) I’m just now listening to them and find there’s nothing that sonically compares. They’re just more real sounding than anything else. Not spectacular but realistic.
Wow! they put everything else to shame. I picked up about twenty Sheffield D2D’s when Tower Records went out of business for a song (no pun intended.) I’m just now listening to them and find there’s nothing that sonically compares. They’re just more real sounding than anything else. Not spectacular but realistic.
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Dear @bdp24 : Other than me you are the first gentleman with the Sheffield Thelma Houston kind of opinion, for almost any one is one of their favorities D2D recording. Yes, the Tutt drumer is great too but for some reason I like a little more the Keltner instrument sound especially cymbals but only a preference. Not easy to compare in between those two tracks when both are different kind of improvisation work. Btw, the Flamenco Fever is not exactly for test speakers or only good sound: that's a misunderstanding because that recording is outstanding at any kind level you can judge it and certainly not a " tepid " as you said or could think. Seems to me that you was not exposed yet to many top D2D out there. Tepid?, between other things I own two way diferent male pianist that were recorded D2D by diferent labels: Dave Grusin and Earl Hines. I don't know other gentlemans but both recordings are evrything you want but tepid. R. |
One reason many d-2-d LP’s are so musically tepid is the musicians’ fear of making a mistake, which requires scrapping the lacquer and starting anew. The cost of doing that runs into thousands of dollars. That’s why Sax and Mayorga used the best studio musicians, who are used to working under the intense pressure of studio recording, which can be very intimidating to non-studio players. Bands actually break up while making their first recordings, finally hearing what they actually sound like. Such was the case for Russ Kunkel, who went on to become a very successful studio drummer (James Taylor, Carole King, Linda Ronstadt, Carly Simon, Jackson Browne, Stephen Stills, Lyle Lovett, etc.). The other members of the band he moved to L.A. with continued to toil in obscurity. The Thelma Houston Sheffield is a little brash, some thinking there is overload taking place somewhere in the chain (the cutter head or electronics, the mic pre-amps, or perhaps even the mics). The Sheffield Drum Record suffers no such imperfection; just clean, extremely dynamic drumsets played by Keltner and Elvis’ drummer Ron Tutt. Keltner’s playing is good, but Tutt choked a little. ;-) I don’t own Flamenco Fever or the L.A. 4 discs, having grown weary of using mediocre music as source material for speaker evaluations before finding copies. Time is too precious to me now to waste on just good sound---I turned 70 last week. Plus, I'm done evaluating loudspeakers. |
@bdp24 thanks for the history :-) I recently acquired a few of the titles you mentioned ( Fox Vol 1 and 2, Sheffield Test and 6 other D2D for $1.92 each.... The LA 4 disc is a fascinating study of microphone selection and the jacket includes the recording layout as well as EQ settings... that will shock the anti tone control crowd... |
Dear @bdp24 : Now that you named the Virgil Fox by Crystal Clear ( I own it both recordings. ) the Bach organ scores in the D2D M&K recordings could be a little better engineered but in reality is hard to say it.. As I posted before not all D2D has the same top quality sound but the ones that have it are just outstanding and nothing beats it. """ and drummer Jim Keltner ..""" well the Keltner track in the Sheffield Drum Record is just excellent, impressive and so full of TRUE that even we can’t " believe " exist this quality level sound in LP. Yes For Duke with Bill Berry is great too. It’s very dificult to say which of so many D2D is the best, maybe could be better to say: the 10 best and that Flamenco Fever with out doubt can be in that list. Btw, do you own it? In my posts in this thread I forgot to mention that to listen and appreciate all the unique splendor of D2D recordings we must to listen at a little or not so little higher SPL over our normal SPL we listened. This is an important subject. """ Doug Sax had proven in the early-1970’s that a direct-to-disc LP afforded higher sound quality than any tape recording ever made. """ no single doubt about ! ! ! If we are MUSIC lovers and like to enjoy it at the higher levels LP recordings can achieve we have to listen at least one of the top D2D through our audio life because with out that you can understand of what quality level we are talking in this thread with this specific subject. R. |
I wouldn't overestimate the superiority of Direct to Disc records, for example some nice from Shefield Lab is Dave Grusin LP (1976), but his earlier Soundtrack "3 Days of the Condor" on Capitol records (1975) is even better (sonically) and wasn't Direct to Disc. I don't want you to compare youtube videos, compare records instead. |
A couple weeks back I proselytized, in the thread entitled "Why no interest in reel-to-reel if you’re looking for the ultimate sound?", that Doug Sax had proven in the early-1970’s that a direct-to-disc LP afforded higher sound quality than any tape recording ever made. I suggested buying every direct-to-disc LP you can get your hands on. The first d-2-d LP I heard of (thanks to JGH), and subsequently heard in 1972, was the second Sheffield (S-10): The Missing Linc by Lincoln Mayorga and Distinguished Collegues (the cream of L.A. studio musicians, including bassist Jerry Scheff---renown for his work with Elvis, Roy Orbison, T Bone Burnett, Richard Thompson, the doors, lots of others---and drummer Jim Keltner---Ry Cooder, Bill Frisell, Randy Newman, Dylan, George Harrison, John Lennon, Brian Wilson, Steely Dan, Eric Clapton, J.J. Cale, many others). The music on the album is imo pretty corny, but the sound is incredible! The sound of a d-2-d LP is startling "alive": very "immediate", with incredible transient "snap" (as JGH put it) and punch. In comparison, all but the best tape recordings sound veiled, out-of-focus soft, distant, pale, lifeless. The only thing that came close to the shock of hearing a d-2-d LP was hearing an ESL loudspeaker for the first time. And then hearing my first Decca cartridge, whose sound characteristic was uncannily similar to a d-2-d LP. As I said above, Sheffield S-10 was the label’s second d-2-d LP, and by the time I heard of it the first---S-9---was out of print. It took me years to find a copy, but find one I did. I now have 13 Sheffields, Pop and Classical. Some actually have musical worth ;-) . One thing to be aware of is that Sax sometimes ran more than one lathe at a time (some LP jackets contain cutter info), and some titles were done with more than one complete side take. So different LP pressings can and do contain different takes! Another point to make is that Doug Sax didn’t invent direct-to-disc recording, he rediscovered it. Prior to the invention of the tape recorder (by German engineers, for the Nazi war effort. The Allies discovered the recorders in the underground bunkers, and brought them back to the U.S.A.), ALL recordings were made direct-to-disc. Remember the scene in O Brother Where Art Thou, when the hillbillies are singing into the "can" in the radio station? Remember the shot of a lacquer being cut in another room as they did? Direct-to-disc. Other direct-to-disc record companies sprang up in the wake of Sheffield, the most prolific being Crystal Clear. I have 7 CC’s, including those by The Dillards (you’ve seen them as The Darlings on The Andy Griffith Show), Carlos Montoya, Arthur Fiedler, and Virgil Fox (playing a pipe organ, producing a 16Hz tone on the bottom pedal!). Other labels include M & K (L.A. retailer Miller & Kreisel, where Steve McCormack started his hi-fi career), whose title For Duke (loved by HP) once commanded hundreds of dollars (though I got a copy from Brooks Berdan for $75), and even Cardas (The Gregg Smith Singers, pressed at 45RPM). |
The M&K D to D of Flamenco Fever is an extraordinary album, not only is the SQ demonstration quality, but the music is very fine as well. There are other great D to D's, but this particular album is at, or very near the top, IMO. I think many of the Sheffields are great from a SQ perspective, but some of the music is ...tepid. |
Dear @rvpiano : Yes, RR are very good even that are not D2D. Due that you own the M&K too do it you a favor and listen Flamenco Fever and Earl " Fatha " Hines recordings.The Flamenco Fever sale price is between 600.00 and 1K dollars. @mr_m https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-very-best-sound-direct-to-disc/post?postid=1958880#1958880 good that you confirmed it. R. |
As a side note, not all the Sheffields are D2D. More specifically, there was some Sheffield Lp's that came out of their earlier stuff called "Treasury Albums." These were made from the back up reel to reel tapes of the D2D sessions. I compared one of those titles, Dave Grusin Discovered Again! To my ears, the D2D was superior to the back up tape session. |
Dear @rvpiano : """ and friends i’ve rediscovered the Sheffield and RR Direct Disc albums in my collection. """ I own all RR ( Reference Recording LPs. ) and if you are refering to that label those are not D2D LPs, very good but not at the Sheffield or M&K true D2D ones. @mikelavigne I own the Elio Villafranca " Dynamic Resolution " LP that it’s a D2D one but for me it’s weird that no where in the disc jacket makes mention of that instead to that it’s a half-speed master. I love Elio great composer and an artist as a player. The recording is very good but for me not at the same level of the other two D2D labels I mentioned. Same with the first 12-15 D2D LPs by own Acoustic Sounds label. Now, what could be the nearest recording alternative to the D2D one?. I’m a full ignorant on the whole recording process but even that I think that the digital recordings, where the tape recorder has no influence, ( not all ) like some of the Telarc’s that are really extraordinary or something more comtemporary coming from WindMusic label as its sample " Paramita " , this one you have to listen it to know what I mean about because it’s down there in the land of D2D quality performance or at least the nearest I experienced: the MUSIC is extraordinary and even a true challenge/test for any room/system on reproduction of it. As the D2D the digital LPs have not the same quality performance, the Teldec or Philips and almost all DG and many others are not only good but really bad recordings. I own one D2D Telarc that’s way bad. Other very near to D2D recordings are the ones " Live to two tracks " as the ones by Sheffield Labs or Audioquest, both labels very good. It depends too of the engineering skills on the whole recording process. Yes there are several labels with great recording quality but nothing like the D2D recordings. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I'm familiar with those Sheffield D2D's but never heard one. Anyone have any of the late 70's Angel 45 Sonic Series? If you have BOTH, how do they compare sonically? Are the 45's anywhere near the quality of the Sheffield's? I have several of these 45 rpm albums of some classics: Holst-The Planets Gershwin-Rhapsody in Blue Ravel-Bolero Ketelby-In a Monastery Garden These LP's are pretty impressive. Probably even more on a very good system. Every time I have Bolero spinning at 45 RPM, I can see Bo jogging in slow motion towards me. |
I have several of the Sheffield Labs - love them - Lincoln and Amanda on Hollywood Town with The Rose - love her version of it and did not know she wrote that; a Mozart violin concerto; Dave Grusin mentioned by others; Marni Nixon - she had an incredible voice; Harry James. Also one M&K and a RR and a Crystal Clear with Charlie Byrd. One of my all time favorites is a D2D pressed on Umbrella label of Rob McConnell and the Boss Brass. If you can find it, then grab it. Sound is incredible on all 4 sides. My go-to discs to show off my system. Its Big Band music and yes, it sounds like you are in the studio with the band. It sounded great on my SS system and sounds way better with tubes - fuller, wider soundstage, I can hear all the saxes, trumpets, trombones, bass, guitar, drums... Just WOW. Also have the 45 RPM versions of The Doors and Miles Davis Prestige box set. If you like those two artists, they are well worth the price. Again, its like you are in the studio. Not as good as D2D, but still very very realistic. |
Dear @rvpiano and friends : I own both versions opf the Sheffield " Discovered again " . The D2D and the one from the recorded tape. With this LP samples you can be perfectly aware of the high degradation that the recording signal suffers when the information goes/pass through the recording R2R machines. Differences are not small ones but higher that any one of us could think. Unfortunatelly for LP manufacturers and musicians the D2D alternative is no more an alternative and as a fact never was. To much stress everywhere with no chance of editing or record a take 2 . Everything in D2D is as in a live evnt: we can change nothing and the errors down there stays there for ever but with out doubt is the best way to make LP shines if the D2D recordings were made by truly good engineers. As I said before there are many D2D recordings that are bad recordings but not because the " media " but something wrong with the engineering down there during the recording process. Between other things digital has the advantage that the recording machines does not affects the digital signal because the signal are only 0 and 1 and be readed as 0 and 1. No degradation to the signal. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I still have a sealed copy of Dave Grusin Discovered Again. Also have an unsealed copy I have listened to. I did sell one of two copies of the original Lincoln Mayorga DtoD with the Scully lathe on the cover for over $300. I can't understand why anyone would have paid that much for it. As impressive as it was when it first came out, musically it is pretty stiff and that is understandable given what's involved in making a DtoD. Interestingly, when that first one came out, a good friend of mine invited me over to his house to listen to a new recording. He cued up a 15 ips tape on his ReVox and hit play. My jaw hit the floor. I asked when he recorded that and asked if he could make me a copy. "I'll do better than that" he said. "I'll give you the master". That's when he handed me a copy of the record. That was in the early 1970's in a college town hungry for audio equipment. More crappy speakers were sold by means of using that DtoD as a demo source than you can imagine. All the audio stores had a copy and I swear you could hold them up to the sky and see light coming through the grooves, they were played that frequently. |
I have most (but not all) of the Sheffield D2D albums. I bought them as they were released, back in the mid 1970s and early 1980s. A couple that haven't been mentioned here, but are exceptional both musically and in the recording, are Dave Grusin, 'Discovered Again' and the James Newton Howard Quintet which featured David Paich, Steve Porcaro, Jeff Porcaro, and Joe Porcaro. Those guys were mostly from the group Toto and James Newton Howard went on to be quite the Hollywood musical score master. Here's an interesting story. Back in my early days of working in the CE industry (which I worked for 40 years and have now recently retired) I had a nice acquaintance with Andrew Teton, the General Manager & Sales Director for Sheffield Labs. At CES, back in 1983, he was kind enough to get me the Special CES Preview Edition of the James Newton Howard forthcoming D2D release. This was produced and engineered by Bill Schnee, who did a marvelous job with it and other D2D recordings. Andrew gave it to me as a gift. How kind of him. To this day it is probably my number one, best SQ album in my collection. Very, very musical with bass that is as real as it gets and the kick drum will hit your chest with authority. Its absolutely phenomenal! The music is progressive jazz/fusion and is very appealing to most anyone. Every time I make a change to my system, even just a new "tweak" item, I use this LP to test out any perceptible change to the SQ. If you can find a clean copy I highly recommend it. It's a real "WOW" event for your listening experience and pleasure. Enjoy the music! |
Raul, with all due respect, I'm an electronics technician and I have to take exception to "MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS". That sounds good, and at one time that was my bible, until I discovered that if you can hear the music, disregard the distortions. I was 100% specifications until my prized SS Pre bit the dust, and I decided to try tubes. I got a loaner PV-10 that had seen better days, there was apparent both noise and distortion in that unit, yet it was more musical than my SS gear. Enjoy the music with as little noise and distortion as possible is my new motto. |
I agree that the Mapleshade CDs are similar to the Ref Rec LPs (also available on HDCD, SACD, and I guess downloads) in that they are recorded to tape in a purist microphone setup and then the production to CD is tightly controlled. The sound is good, but the groups recorded may not be to everyone's taste. |
Are Mapleshade recordings the digital equivalent of Direct to Disk recordings? not really, since they are mastered to tape, then CD’s cut from tape. but Pierre’s process is very pure so is his sound on his CD’s. the result is quite ’like’ direct to disc. CD’s analagous to ’direct-to-disc’ would be where the recording format is 16/44 and the CD is a direct result without a higher rez step in between. i have a Starbucks CD called ’Artist Confidential’ that is a collection of acoustic versions of pop songs that was recorded to 16/44 and then a CD made from this. it’s very good and one of the better digital recordings i own. better yet woutd be owning a higher rez file the same as the source file; like the Reference Recordings HRx’s. they are the source file 176/24 and you can buy that source file. i have many of those. the lesson learned is to get as close to a native format as you can. but still......the musical performance is still king. great music has to come first, then we hope it sounds good. if the recording process stifles the musical flow then it’s just sound. but mixed into all those direct-to-disc are some magical performances. so the process does allow for more music to come through. |
I have a bunch of them. Whether I like them or not depends on the music. The Best Sheffield disc is Tower of Power Direct. JVC did D2D's with Lee Ritenour. They are excellent. The others I rarely listen to. Generally the sound is much better as there are fewer analog steps and the Mastering engineer is hearing the real thing while he is mixing. Today with digital recording once the music is in numbers you can take all the steps you want without degradation. The only problem left is that the engineer is remote to the recording and how he mixes it depends on his own interpretation and the system he is listening on. |
here are some direct to disc labels that are very good.....i have some of each of these. http://www.directgrace.org/Catalog3.html https://store.acousticsounds.com/l/4857/Berliner_Meister_Schallplatten also a recent full orchestral Bruckner 7th direct to disc from DG...... https://www.analogplanet.com/content/berlin-philharmonics-direct-disc-bruckner-symphony-7-box-set to order.... https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/bruckner-haitink.html then there is the whole Toshiba Pro Use Direct Cut series.....i have all of these..... https://www.discogs.com/label/299515-Pro-Use-Direct-Cutting-Series and the Jeton direct to disc series....i have all of these.... https://www.discogs.com/label/300900-Jeton-GmbH that ought to keep you busy for awhile. |
I bought Thelma Houston & Pressure Cooker- "I've got the music in me" when it was released and it's still like new. It's always been a go-to-album after I've upgraded something in my system... Fantastic musicians, great engineering and Thelma's flawless, beautiful voice. Doesn't get any better than this! |