The very best sound: Direct to Disc

Dear friends: from the @krankins  08-24-2020 post information in the thread all the ones down there already posted that information before but gentlemans just did not read the thread and what already posted about.

Of course this is a free world.


? ? ? ?   ! !

R.

The original carrier for manufacturing a vinyl record is the so-called lacquer disc. Direct-to-disc recordings use the lacquer disc as recording medium. Direct-to-disc productions are recordings, which are optimised for vinyl records. https://get-vidmate.com/ https://instasave.onl/

Thanks for the info. No wonder why the selection of D2D is very limited.
I try not to be spoiled by the sound of D2D or other audiophile recordings. Just enjoying the music. For so so recording quality LPs, I am spending increasingly more time on Spotify streaming. On my setup, the difference is small. With lossless Spotify coming soon, I might stop buying any new LPs, unless they are very very special.
Gee, I just bought an LP of Kanye West's MY BEAUTIFUL DARK TWISTED FANTASY for my Son's birthday present. Hope it sounds good.

One downside is, once having WOW feeling from D2D records' sound quality, many other records you own sound not so musical to listen to.
I have a few, and always wondering that why other records were not made to the same quality.

D2D requires musicians to play an entire side in one set. Likewise, all the mic and mixing levels have to be set right from the beginning. The results cannot be mixed down to a master, because they are fed straight to the lathe and cut directly onto the wax. This cutting process by the way must also be done in real time. Highly dynamic music calls for greater groove spacing. This requires the engineer to know the musical demands and adjust the lathe all during the cutting process.  

That is an awful lot of things that have to go right in order to cut just one side. The results speak for themselves. But it is very hard to do. Hard usually equates to expensive. So there you go.

Chad acquired the assets of The Mastering Lab from Doug Sax, Doug practically willed it to him, it included the mastering lathes and custom tube electronics.

Isn’t it Sheffield lab was now own by Acoustic sounds Chad Kassem?

One downside is, once having WOW feeling from D2D records' sound quality, many other records you own sound not so musical to listen to.
I have a few, and always wondering that why other records were not made to the same quality. 

I own too all the Sheffield's and the M&K too that are outstanding too but not all D2D are that good it depends of the realeased enginnerings down there.

 @audioquest4life   Agree. Flamenco Fever is a reference level recording. Unfortunately, it is also quite rare and now very pricey! But if the price doesn't put you off, it should be in everyone's collection.

You should listen to the Flamenco Fever M&K Realtime Records Direct-to-Disc LP. It’s a great recording with massive foot stomping. If you want to impress people with how live and real your system sounds, this is a good demo. 

Paramita " , this one you have to listen it to know what I mean about because it’s down there in the land of D2D quality performance or at least the nearest I experienced: the MUSIC is extraordinary and even a true challenge/test for any room/system on reproduction of it. mobdro tubemate

I just acquired the RCA Direct to Disc of Eiji Kitamura, Swing sessions. Promises to be excellent. Anyone else have this one?

Dear @rvpiano : I really don't like the kind of sound of the Moscow Sessions LPs. In the other side are not D2D recordings.

R.

I do realize many prefer that distant perspective.  It’s just not to my taste.

I’d like to partially withdraw a statement I made about current Reference Recordings CDs.  The very latest ones with the Pittsburgh Symphony don’t suffer from a lack of detail.  But orchestral recordings prior to the latest ones have had that balcony perspective.

What's the difference between a good community orchestra and a world class orchestra? 10 db. When Sheffield was setting up for the Leinsdorf sessions, they practiced on the Pasadena orchestra. Then the LA Phil came in and blew the lights out. They are fine performances. The musicians had final say on whether the recordings could be released and if you know classical musicians they only release their best.

Apropos of nothing the name Sheffield comes from Sheffield Drive in Santa Barbara. Either Doug Sax's mom or Lincoln Mayorga's mom lived on that street. It also reminded them of the high quality of Sheffield steel. 

I have just about all the Sheffield “Moscow Sessions“ LP’s.
 I have to disagree about their SQ.
To my taste, the orchestra is recorded too distantly, like from a seat in the balcony. This diffuses the sound with a subsequent loss in detail.
Similar to the sound of current Reference Recordings CDs, which I also have problems with (despite their high regard.)

"At one time time, later in the LP era, they did collaborate in a series of 3 classical LPs recorded in Russia for the Sheffield label, "The Moscow Sessions." However, since Johnson’s very special tape machine was "contracted" to RR, they had to borrow one (from Wilson IIRC) to do these recordings. Very good recordings, but not up to the RR standard IMO."

Those Moscow Sessions are some of the best recordings of an orchestra that i have ever heard. IMO. Not the CD but the LPs. The best version of Appalachian Spring I have ever heard is in this set by a Russian orchestra. lol

Onestep Ultradisc Ah Um is not D2D.

I'm a little surprised that the MoFi Mingus Ah Um D2D, featured in the latest S'Phile has not been mentioned. It is largely sold out on preorder. It is not cheap-$125 and up depending on reseller for two 45 rpm records reportedly (Jim Austin wrote the piece) in a vault of a package. Mr. Austin wrote that though pricey, he has never heard better vinyl. 

Dear @melm  : I posted here that I own the D2D Telarc with the Cleveland and that is really bad recording against almost any D2D similar kind of recordings.

Btw, I was unaware that Telarc recorded not one but two D2D LPs.

R.

Yes, you’re right.  Got a little confused.  Sax is not affiliated with RR.
You're also correct about the Moscow Sessions.  They’re not up to the standards of RR or Sheffield LP’s.  Very distant miking, similar in perspective to RR’s present CDs.

@rvpiano

IIRC he did not pair with Sax to produce RR disks.  RR and Sax's company, Sheffield Records, were competitive.  

At one time time, later in the LP era, they did collaborate in a series of 3 classical LPs recorded in Russia for the Sheffield label, "The Moscow Sessions."  However, since Johnson's very special tape machine was "contracted" to RR, they had to borrow one (from Wilson IIRC) to do these recordings.  Very good recordings, but not up to the RR standard IMO.

This was a very long time ago, so I might not have it exactly straight.

I have to agree. When Keith Johnson paired with Doug Sax to produce Reference LP’s the results were spectacular, comparable to D2Ds.
I can’t say the same for his CDs though.
Never liked the sound of RR CDs.

Just for completeness, it should be mentioned that the first two Telarc releases were D2D. There was a recording of the Cleveland Orchestra, and an organ recital by Michael Murray. I’d have to go back and listen to them, but I do not recall the Cleveland record as being particularly well received.

By the way, I think Keith Johnson (of RR) proved, decades ago, that a recording cut from an outstanding tape can have an SQ at least as good as D2D. Plus there are considerable advantages to having a tape. I have several of each and I like them all.

(remains Ned's)? remind's me...

Mention of the Telarc 1812 remains Ned's me of Beethoven Wellington's Victory on Mercury Living Presence. (with spoken commentary describing the firing, with sounds during the recording session).  "The 6-pound smooth-bore bronze cannons & 12 pound Howitzer,  French Charlevolle-pattern muskets & British Brown Bess muskets, courtesy of U.S. Military Academy, West Point, New York". 

Interesting about Amanda McBroom who's been mentioned frequently in this thread. I was surprised to see she had a role in an old Mash episode I saw on TV some time ago. A most talented person.

@rauliruegas  Agree that the Blue Mind title is very good...which leads me to have much higher expectations for the D2D. Since you apparently had the same expectations, I can see how this could lead to a let down! 
Compared to Flamenco Fever ( which one has to admit, the music lends itself for extreme dynamics and immediacy..and which lady with piano in some ways does not) I am not that surprised that the overall SQ is less impressive. One question is why there are so very few 'amazing' sounding recordings out there in this day and age?  Is digital the cause of this?

Dear @daveyf  : My first AB LP was the title Blue Mind under Fidelio label . She is very good composer and with really good voice and the recording was very good too on quality performance level.

The D2D one has not that really " live " imediacy and palpabilty that you can hear in Flamenco Fever or the Keltner track or the Earl Hines recordings.

It's not that is not good seems to me that I already had high expectations about before I listened.

R.

I just ordered the new Gary Bartz & Maisha D2D and it 
should arrive shortly. I have the Sean Kuti  & Egypt 80, 
also on the Night Dreamer label. I like it but think that 
the Bartz/Maisha might get a bit more play based on
what I've heard on Youtube.

Quite reasonably priced in any event. 

@rauliruegas I was thinking of pulling the trigger on the Anne Bisson D to D album, why do you think it is not one of the better ones?

Dear @rvpiano :  Me neither but my latest experiences with new D2D ( Anne Bison. ) , some from Acoustics Sound, the Elio Villafranca, etc, etc. are not the best ones.
Those engineers can have the knowledge but seems to me not very good skills on that kind of overall recording process.

R.

@rvpiano  The Bruckner Berliner D to D set has been out for a little while now. It is not exactly an inexpensive box set. I'm going to pass as well, too many other albums that can be bought with great SQ for a lot less $$.

For classical music fans, I just learned the Berlin Philharmonic is releasing a new set of Bruckner Symphonies recorded direct to disc.
Not being a big Bruckner admirer, I’ll pass on it.

@rauliruegas  Once again, I'm not following you how the sound of a live instrument from up close or far, has anything to do with the 'digital sheen' that I hear from a digital recording. Two very different types of sound, IMHO. YMMV.

Dear @daveyf  : Well those D2D from M&K are top ones and agree with you about.


"""  have a certain digital sheen.... """ that's how the live MUSIC sounds seated at near field position.

For how many hours do you think can listed live MUSIC at nearfield position?. Please seat at 2-3m- from a trumpet player playing at live event SDPL and you will know that can't listen not even half an hour in a row !

Recording microphones are seated at very near source position.

R.

@rauliruegas  I own all of the M&K Digital LP's. While they are listenable, I do NOT think they hold a candle to the analog LP's from M&K. The Digital LP's have a certain digital sheen that I find to be unpleasant over the long haul.

Dear @daveyf  : Yes, really good I owned and today by your post learned is a digital recorded LP.

Btw,  the Telarc digital recording LP ( 1979 ) of 1812 Overture states that the recording goes from 6hz and up.The 1812 recording is really good and not only for its great bass range with a definition, accuracy and rigthness quality no analog recording can touch it but all the score: that Carillon is an EXPERIENCE to listen it as the triangle or the tambourine. Exist a today reissue made it by the FIM label. Both LPs are something to listen as many other Telarcs titles: Carmen, Mahler Titan, Pictures at an exibition and many more and are easy to buy it all.

There is at least one digital recording by Delos title that we have to have: Beethoven Piano Sonatas with the female player Carol Rosenberger in a
Bösendorfer Imperial Concert Grand instrument.|

From Denon PCM I remember Brahms Piano works with a female player: Annerose Schmidt.

I forgot in my last post to mention the digital LPs by M&K, they named Digital Master Series and I own all that are classical MUSIC with the Philharmonia Hungarica.

R.

@rauliruegas  I'm not going to say all digital recordings are not great, just the majority of them, IME. OTOH, I can think of one that is actually reference quality...and it is the MoFi Allison Krauss and Union station Live album. This one is a superb recording and enjoyable on a number of different levels. 

Dear friends and  @daveyf  : This is what I posted in other thread on digital recorded LPs that can compete with D2D LPs:


"""  Now you and any one needs to listen ( is a must to. ) the digital recorded ( 24/96 ) LPs made it by WindMusic label.I own the titles Paramita and Mystical Scent. Last time I seen Paramita sealed LP on ebay was sold for over 500.00.

Well, in these as in other digital recordings I own nothing of what you posted about that digital is missing " something " happens with in my analog rig and set up that's first rate including my Phonolinepreamp.

Exist other digital recording LPs that comes from " old " times and the ones mastered by Stan Ricker and others are just  " there qwith D2D ".

Labels I can mention: Telarc ( I own over 50 LPs. ) ones but not all only some of them, Delos are excellent recordings ( Telarc and Delos used Soundstream digital recorder and mastering by Stan Ricker. ), some Denon whom designed and builded its own digital recorder and Chandos label too.

In those times was an " euphoria " for the digital LPs and several labels but almost all digital recordings in reality sound auwful/terrible like the ones from Teldec or Deca or DG or Philips or Varese Sarabande, Chalfont, etc, etc.

The digital well recorded are truly good and makes any decent room/systems shines. Unfortunatelly even in the same label not all titles are good, example: in Telarc the third and fifth piano Beethoven concertos ( R. Serkin. ) are way different in sound quality level where one of them is just lifeless, the recordings were made with two years difference in between.  ""

R.

Now I see your point. Good.

R.

 @rauliruegas  You posted this:" The level of stress on that precise live recording by the artist/player". Which brings about my point! 

Dear @daveyf  : ""  What you just posted accounts for the differences in music/performance, not so much to the sound of the recording. ""

How is that, please explain it? because if the choice of the microphones position is " wrong " that affects the qualñity of the sound recording or if the choice of the kind of microphones used is not the correct to pick-up all the instruments sound then that affects the quality of the sound reproduction the same for the quality level of the mastering.

If the recording microphones don't took in correct way a female vopice the quality sound can be the best one we can achieve for that female voice. Even the live handled of the mixing micro console is way important. Why exist different cutting heads where some engineers choosed this or that. Why not always the same cuthing head? common sense tells that because could affects the quality sound recording levels.

R.

Dear @daveyf  : ""  IF you think that a digital recording can compete with these labels and formats, well that may say something about your posts""

If we compare D2D LPs against digital recorded LPs and other than the medium the main difference with LPs recorded using a tape recorder is that D2D and digital ones recordings do not use a tape recorder.

Tape recorder can't degrades/damages those 0,1s .Digital cutting LP process signal is the original signal as in D2D process. Yes, you need a DAC but the level of degradation down there is not at all significant as we can think and what I'm talking about is for those top digital LPs recordings.

I own hundreds of digital recorded LPs and almost all are really bad but the ones that are good ones are LPs that you can put it along those well recorded D2D LPs. I have not the time now but I will give you some digital LPs examples of that quality level condition.


"""  Now if in your system you can't detect that big difference in between then could be maybe because your room/system has not yet the resolution to be aware of." so IF you don't hear the differences when you go back to 'some digital recordings'...then maybe look no further. """

Fortunatelly and as you my room/system resolution is not only high but way higher than normal systems. I can be aware of almost everything on differences in quality levels.

At least you need to listen in your system the West Music Paramita digital  recorded LP that I posted here twice.


R.

@rauliruegas  What you just posted accounts for the differences in music/performance, not so much to the sound of the recording. 

IMHO, there are a lot more excellent sounding Opus 3 LP's than there are D to D LP's. From a recording perspective- and a performance perspective. YMMV.

Dear @jab  In D2D overall recording process there are several more important " things ", not that the amp is not important because everything down there it's.

Diferences in between the quality sound of its D2D LPs came from: diferent cutting lathe operator/mix-microphones, the rigth microphones positions and it volume levels, the master laquer engineer, the level of stress on that precise live recording by the artist/player and engineers involved, the cutting lathe quality level of set-up.
Remember that in a D2D recording there is no way to make any kind of editting mistakes or something where the artist or the producer just do not like as the best should be.

Check your Sheffield LPs and take a look for the people involved in the different recording sessions over different time/years or months.

R.

@daveyf  : About the drivers example is only to say that it does not matters how near one of them are from the top ones because can't play in that top league yet. They have to improve to be there.

R.