The very best sound: Direct to Disc

Dear friends: from the @krankins  08-24-2020 post information in the thread all the ones down there already posted that information before but gentlemans just did not read the thread and what already posted about.

Of course this is a free world.


? ? ? ?   ! !

R.

Dear @rvpiano : I really don't like the kind of sound of the Moscow Sessions LPs. In the other side are not D2D recordings.

R.

Dear @melm  : I posted here that I own the D2D Telarc with the Cleveland and that is really bad recording against almost any D2D similar kind of recordings.

Btw, I was unaware that Telarc recorded not one but two D2D LPs.

R.

Dear @daveyf  : My first AB LP was the title Blue Mind under Fidelio label . She is very good composer and with really good voice and the recording was very good too on quality performance level.

The D2D one has not that really " live " imediacy and palpabilty that you can hear in Flamenco Fever or the Keltner track or the Earl Hines recordings.

It's not that is not good seems to me that I already had high expectations about before I listened.

R.

Dear @rvpiano :  Me neither but my latest experiences with new D2D ( Anne Bison. ) , some from Acoustics Sound, the Elio Villafranca, etc, etc. are not the best ones.
Those engineers can have the knowledge but seems to me not very good skills on that kind of overall recording process.

R.

Dear @daveyf  : Well those D2D from M&K are top ones and agree with you about.


"""  have a certain digital sheen.... """ that's how the live MUSIC sounds seated at near field position.

For how many hours do you think can listed live MUSIC at nearfield position?. Please seat at 2-3m- from a trumpet player playing at live event SDPL and you will know that can't listen not even half an hour in a row !

Recording microphones are seated at very near source position.

R.

Dear @daveyf  : Yes, really good I owned and today by your post learned is a digital recorded LP.

Btw,  the Telarc digital recording LP ( 1979 ) of 1812 Overture states that the recording goes from 6hz and up.The 1812 recording is really good and not only for its great bass range with a definition, accuracy and rigthness quality no analog recording can touch it but all the score: that Carillon is an EXPERIENCE to listen it as the triangle or the tambourine. Exist a today reissue made it by the FIM label. Both LPs are something to listen as many other Telarcs titles: Carmen, Mahler Titan, Pictures at an exibition and many more and are easy to buy it all.

There is at least one digital recording by Delos title that we have to have: Beethoven Piano Sonatas with the female player Carol Rosenberger in a
Bösendorfer Imperial Concert Grand instrument.|

From Denon PCM I remember Brahms Piano works with a female player: Annerose Schmidt.

I forgot in my last post to mention the digital LPs by M&K, they named Digital Master Series and I own all that are classical MUSIC with the Philharmonia Hungarica.

R.

Dear friends and  @daveyf  : This is what I posted in other thread on digital recorded LPs that can compete with D2D LPs:


"""  Now you and any one needs to listen ( is a must to. ) the digital recorded ( 24/96 ) LPs made it by WindMusic label.I own the titles Paramita and Mystical Scent. Last time I seen Paramita sealed LP on ebay was sold for over 500.00.

Well, in these as in other digital recordings I own nothing of what you posted about that digital is missing " something " happens with in my analog rig and set up that's first rate including my Phonolinepreamp.

Exist other digital recording LPs that comes from " old " times and the ones mastered by Stan Ricker and others are just  " there qwith D2D ".

Labels I can mention: Telarc ( I own over 50 LPs. ) ones but not all only some of them, Delos are excellent recordings ( Telarc and Delos used Soundstream digital recorder and mastering by Stan Ricker. ), some Denon whom designed and builded its own digital recorder and Chandos label too.

In those times was an " euphoria " for the digital LPs and several labels but almost all digital recordings in reality sound auwful/terrible like the ones from Teldec or Deca or DG or Philips or Varese Sarabande, Chalfont, etc, etc.

The digital well recorded are truly good and makes any decent room/systems shines. Unfortunatelly even in the same label not all titles are good, example: in Telarc the third and fifth piano Beethoven concertos ( R. Serkin. ) are way different in sound quality level where one of them is just lifeless, the recordings were made with two years difference in between.  ""

R.

Now I see your point. Good.

R.

Dear @daveyf  : ""  What you just posted accounts for the differences in music/performance, not so much to the sound of the recording. ""

How is that, please explain it? because if the choice of the microphones position is " wrong " that affects the qualñity of the sound recording or if the choice of the kind of microphones used is not the correct to pick-up all the instruments sound then that affects the quality of the sound reproduction the same for the quality level of the mastering.

If the recording microphones don't took in correct way a female vopice the quality sound can be the best one we can achieve for that female voice. Even the live handled of the mixing micro console is way important. Why exist different cutting heads where some engineers choosed this or that. Why not always the same cuthing head? common sense tells that because could affects the quality sound recording levels.

R.

Dear @daveyf  : ""  IF you think that a digital recording can compete with these labels and formats, well that may say something about your posts""

If we compare D2D LPs against digital recorded LPs and other than the medium the main difference with LPs recorded using a tape recorder is that D2D and digital ones recordings do not use a tape recorder.

Tape recorder can't degrades/damages those 0,1s .Digital cutting LP process signal is the original signal as in D2D process. Yes, you need a DAC but the level of degradation down there is not at all significant as we can think and what I'm talking about is for those top digital LPs recordings.

I own hundreds of digital recorded LPs and almost all are really bad but the ones that are good ones are LPs that you can put it along those well recorded D2D LPs. I have not the time now but I will give you some digital LPs examples of that quality level condition.


"""  Now if in your system you can't detect that big difference in between then could be maybe because your room/system has not yet the resolution to be aware of." so IF you don't hear the differences when you go back to 'some digital recordings'...then maybe look no further. """

Fortunatelly and as you my room/system resolution is not only high but way higher than normal systems. I can be aware of almost everything on differences in quality levels.

At least you need to listen in your system the West Music Paramita digital  recorded LP that I posted here twice.


R.

Dear @jab  In D2D overall recording process there are several more important " things ", not that the amp is not important because everything down there it's.

Diferences in between the quality sound of its D2D LPs came from: diferent cutting lathe operator/mix-microphones, the rigth microphones positions and it volume levels, the master laquer engineer, the level of stress on that precise live recording by the artist/player and engineers involved, the cutting lathe quality level of set-up.
Remember that in a D2D recording there is no way to make any kind of editting mistakes or something where the artist or the producer just do not like as the best should be.

Check your Sheffield LPs and take a look for the people involved in the different recording sessions over different time/years or months.

R.

@daveyf  : About the drivers example is only to say that it does not matters how near one of them are from the top ones because can't play in that top league yet. They have to improve to be there.

R.

Dear @daveyf : Do you think that Bottas or Verstappen are in the same league than Hamilton, Vettel or Senna?

Both are excellent drivers but till today in different league than the others named. Yes close but not down there: yet.


Btw, even that I have good memory I will listen some digital recordings and will post my findings.


R.

Dear @daveyf  : I think you have the answer but let me explain a little.

First I named the Opus 3 label as one of the great tape recordered labels ever but that does not puts the label at the Flamenco Fever D2D levels and is very easy to know why.

The Flamenco Fever recording just does not touched a tape recorder and I think that I don't need to explain you all the degradation to the signal that any tape recorder makes.

Now if in your system you can't detect that big difference in between then could be maybe because your room/system has not yet the resolution to be aware of.

Unfortunatelly does not exist the tape recorder version of Flamenco Fever as in the Sheffield D2D Dave Grusin sample.

As I posted before the only tape recorder LP I experienced that can be along the well recorded D2D LPs is The Power and the Majesty but even this can't compete with the top D2D LPs as Flamenco Fever.

I posted too that the only LPs that can compete bis a bis with the best D2D ones are some very well recorded digital LPs where the tape recorder just does not can degrades the 0,1 information in there.
One very good example of those digital recordings is the one I posted Paramita ( 24/96 ): astonoshing with MUSIC compositions using instruments that we normally are not accustom to other than female voice and some of the kind of drums used there.


R.

Dear @rvpiano and friends : I need to fix my mistake on what I posted on that D2D 45rpm LP of my last post.

"  Very good indeed. "

No, it's not that way. The player performance is mediocre one but the sound is not good even that is a D2D 45rpm recording.
The sound is lifeless, that Steinway instrument sounds just bad and this could be because the engineers choosed four Neumann microphones and they chossed that at least 2 of them were at only 5cms. above the strings and did not let the instrument possibility to breathe. All instruments needs its own minimum space to performs at its best and that did not happens in this recording.

I can be wrong but this is my take on it.

R.

Dear @rvpiano and friends: I wasn't aware that this 45ropm LP is D2D and I'm referring to the Toshiba/EMI Jun Fukamachi at Steinway ( Nocturne Chopin . ) recorded in 1976. At the front LP jacket is the picture of the face of a black cat.

Very good indeed.

In the information page inside the jacket we can read this:


"" a cartridge is required which can handle a much higher dynamic range.....sometimes it migth not be able to track correctly the grooves which has been recorded at such high level. Distortions, vibration, or, in some cases skipping of the stylus migth occur....... """""

Yes, they are totally rigth: the self tracking cartridge abilities is very important and makes a paramount differences in the quality sound when we are talking of these kind of LP D2D recordings.
Several times at micro levels the stylus tip is skipping and we not even be aware of. So the cartridge is the  must important link in the room/system to achieve and honor the very high quality sound levels that many of the D2D recordings have ( obviously along a good tonearm match. ).

Cartridges with high tracking abilities is the name of the game here and with well recorded digital LP's.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @rvpiano and friends: One D2D that we need to own comes by Ortofon that as we all know marketed the first commercial LOMC cartridge and Ortofon was too cutter heads manufacturer.

Several years ago I bougth around 25 test record ( Shure, CBS, Stereo Review, HI-Fi Sound, Micro-Acoustic, Vanguard, EMI, Denon, Telarc, Audio Technica and the like. ) and one of them was the pick-up test record by Ortofon that when I bought it I was not aware is a D2D LP recording and when I used the very first time that was really nice surprise because not only for its very special recorded tests but because in one LP side comes with classical MUSIC demostration/tests tracks with the Tivoli Symphony Orchestra and recorded inside the Tivoli Hall at Copenhagen Tivoli Gardens.

The recording is up there with the best D2D to enjoy that quality sound level on the recorded MUSIC an additional a very good test LP. Recomended.

Some of you already own The Power and the Majesty MoFi LP? if yes please give a listen and share your opinion about especially with the Thunderstorm track compared with the quality sound ofwell recorded D2D LPs and if you don’t owned yet then it’s good time to do it.


Now that I speak about dedicated test records I think that the well recorded and top D2D recordings are really " dedicated " room/system test records with an exceptional quality sound.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @fleschler : To what RR label are you reffereing to?, if it’s Reference Recording I think I own all its recordings and no D2D LPs down there or at least I did not know RR has it. If is the same label and exist D2D from them I'm interested to know it and try to find out.

@oddlots M.Lavigne already posted it and I own at least one of them and is good recording but not up to best D2D several LPs that exist. 

R.

Dear @oldears  : I own all Opues 3 and mentioned that even that are very good recorded and even used as a system test are not in the same league of the well recorded D2D LPs. Of course only a first hand experienced opinion.

@angeloinny  you are rigth Nautilus label had good D2D recordings and even very good non D2D LPs too.

R.

Any one can buy it from ebay for " peanuts "/low price.

R.

Dear friends: My mistake: the label is Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs and the recording is an Original Master Recording. 
The recorder Brad Miller was the founder of MoFi label. Here something of his history:


""" 

As a producer and recording engineer Mr. Miller changed the music industry for the better. Brad Miller had two driving passions - sound and quality. If you count yourself as an audiophile, you probably owe Brad Miller some measure of gratitude.

Brad Miller (1939-1998), was an acknowledged master of recording outdoor environmental and man-made machine sounds. He began his career by recording the sounds of steam engine railroad trains as a teenager during the 1950's, releasing LP's on his own Mobile Fidelity Records. In 1965, he founded the Mystic Moods Orchestra (a.k.a. Nature's Mystic Moods), which mixed the sounds of machines and/or the environment with orchestral music. In 1977, he founded the renowned audiophile label Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. He produced music projects through the companies Mobile Fidelity Productions and Mobile Fidelity International Productions. Brad Miller died September 9, 1998. In 1955, Brad recorded the sounds of one of a steam locomotives for the first time. He borrowed his father's Ampro monaural tape recorder along with a crystal microphone, and recorded passing steam trains from the Burbank tower, and at Surf, California where he vacationed with a telegrapher friend. A kind Los Angeles round-house foreman installed a power converter (32 volts DC to 110 AC) so that Brad could make his first cab recording aboard a Southern Pacific #4455 engine.

In the fall of 1957, Brad and a friend named Jim Connella decided to record and release a record album of Southern Pacific steam locomotive sounds. In March, 1958, Mobile Fidelity released album MF-1. They released two more monaural albums before the end of 1958. In September, 1958, Brad traveled through Wyoming, Colorado and Nebraska, recording locomotives while living on hamburgers and sleeping in his car. He had purchased an Ampex 601-2 tape recorder and a pair of Electro-Voice microphones, a battery and an ATR converter. The trip resulted in Highball, MF-4, Mobile Fidelity Record's first stereo album. High Fidelity Magazine praised the album.

While recording the sounds of steam locomotives, Brad had on occasion captured other outdoor sounds. This inspired Brad's idea of expanding the soundstage to give the listener a more panoramic environmental scene. Mobile Fidelity's MF-8, released in September of 1961, was entitled Steam Railroading Under Thundering Skies. As the title implies, the record featured the sounds of locomotives combined with rainstorms. The album was recognized in Billboard Magazine as their "specialty pick of the week".

One night in 1964, a San Francisco disc jockey - Ernie McDaniel of KFOG-FM - played Steam Railroading Under Thundering Skies on one turntable and some music on his other turntable, and broadcast both simultaneously. Listeners responded very favorably, as the station's phones lit up and hundreds of requests to hear the combination flooded the radio station. McDaniel relayed his actions to Brad Miller, and Miller spent three months creating One Stormy Night, the first album of the Mystic Moods Orchestra. Among many other productions with the highly successful Mystic Moods Orchestra, Brad Miller also made two solo "sound-effects" albums in the late 70's and early 80's. The Power and the Majesty and The Power and the Majesty Volume 2 which were both released on Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. """

R.

Dear @rvpiano and friends: We are talking of D2D qualityb recording alternative and with out doubt the well recorded ones are in other different league than the LP recordings coming from the R2R.

We all know that exist several labels ( ACT Music, ATR, FIM, Opus3, Stockfish, Clarity, Stereophile, Audioquest, RR, same Sheffield, Wilson, Water Lily, Athena, Levinson, Rega, Propirous, VTL, OMR, etc, etc. ) with great quality recordings that are not D2D recorded and against the well recorded D2D LP’s just can beats it or even it and against the top D2D LPs no contest at all, these ones are just untouchable.

Well in my opinion and first hand experiences exist one tape recorded LP that can be in the same league as the well recorded D2D and this LP is a must to have for any one of us that like top qualityb recording.

The LP comes from Original Master Recording label ( MFSL 004 . ) and was recorded between 1975 and 1977, title: The Power and the Majesty.

It’s the recording of 1940’s steam locomotive and an outstanding live Thunderstorm.
In this track when one drop of the rain hits a window and when rain drops hits the already rainy flor is extremely real as if you was exactly there and one of the thunders too, I said the track is outstanding but this is a misunderstood because there are not words to explain it other than a live/real event: nothing less. Astonishing quality recording for say the least.

Recorded by Brad Miller and the Remote 4/2 channel recording system were designed by Carl Countryman ( totally unknow for me. ) and master laquers by Stan Ricker.

If you can’t own/buy it at least look for a friend that has it and listen it. A high resolution room/system is a must to.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@bdp24  : All those you posted about Keltner/Ron we can listen clear in the Sheffield recording. Good.

R.

Dear @bdp24  : """   is a master at drum tuning, his drums usually sounding great.. """

Thank's. I think that's why I heard what I heard on Keltner track.

"""  and is a true musical artist, not "just" a drummer. """

Yes, his playing " feeling " says the keltner enjoyment of what he is doing and what wants to share through. That cadence and rythm makes a difference, he catch you.

R.

Dear @harrylavo : Yes, Keltner use additional rythmic instruments and in the other side he and Ron feel the MUSIC in different way or each one recording session mood was what they show up in the LP.

The overall Keltner instrument performs with better top to bottom equilibrium. Something is not exactly " rigth " in the Ron work and the recording producer mentioned it as the differences in between that are important ones.

R.

@bdp24  : """  I said many d-2-d’s are tepid, not all of them.  ""

Well, for me makes no sense at all your statement due that all recorded artist were/are professionals ( not roockies/amateur. ) whom play at live events many times in their lifes and a live event is D2D event.

You said " many D-2-D " and only to be congruent with your statement at least let us know 2-3 " tepid " recordings of those " many " you talk about. Could you? Please no " dead silence ".

Thank's in advance.

R.

Dear @bdp24 .""" Keltner’s playing is good, but Tutt choked a little.."""

after your post I posted: """ but for some reason I like a little more the Keltner instrument sound especially cymbals...."""

Over my audio life and with focus in live MUSIC I developed/builded what for me and my friends is a good wide frequency high resolution room/system to achieve the best MUSIC quality I can according my ignorance levels.

Well, yesterday i listened twice my Sheffield Drum Record that I didn’t listen from several months now and I confirm with out doubt what I posted and that the Keltner track is superior to the Ron one that’s good but at the Keltner one.
The Keltner kick drum has an impact as has to be ( I listened at 95dbs level at seat position . ) that the Ron just has not.
In the LP inside page information by the producers says that the Ron goes lower and yes goes a little lower but with out the rigth impact. Down there says too that the snare drum in Ron instrument has an additional microphone and has darker sound than the Kelter snare drum and says too that the Zildjian cymbals in the Ron instrument is sweet than the Kelter ones and any one can hear exactly all those if the system has a wide frequency response and resolution to.

The improvisations in the Keltner work are way alive against the " darkness " in the Ron improvisation track. Where the Ron track is a little more detailed and precise is when he hits the near to center cymbals surface.

I think that the the frequency band response in the Keltner instrument is more equilibrated than the Ron one.

Any one of you that already own this Sheffield recording can confirm what I’m saying here and obviously that could be that I can be wrong but when I posted about was because my memory told me that because in the past I listened this LP very often and was part of my whole test/evaluation self system process.

bdp24, when you can have the time give a listen again.

Btw, the main engineer and lathe operator in the Sheffield D2D LPs were not the same in all the LP’s but different gentlemans.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rvpiano : Agree. It's a really hard call to said this musician/player or a band when were recorded were: tepid or sound tepid, compared against what? their self in live events or other recordings?

R.

@tomic601 : 1.92 each one? well what a lucky gentleman you are.

R.

Dear @bdp24  : Other than me you are the first gentleman with the Sheffield Thelma Houston kind of opinion, for almost any one is one of their favorities D2D recording.

Yes, the Tutt drumer is great too but for some reason I like a little more the Keltner instrument sound especially cymbals but only a preference. Not easy to compare in between those two tracks when both are different kind of improvisation work.

Btw, the Flamenco Fever is not exactly for test speakers or only good sound: that's a misunderstanding because that recording is outstanding at any kind level you can judge it and certainly not a " tepid " as you said or could think.
Seems to me that you was not exposed yet to many  top D2D out there.

Tepid?, between other things I own two way diferent male pianist that were recorded D2D by diferent labels: Dave Grusin and Earl Hines. I don't know other gentlemans but both recordings are evrything you want but tepid.

R.

Dear @bdp24 : Now that you named the Virgil Fox by Crystal Clear ( I own it both recordings. ) the Bach organ scores in the D2D M&K recordings could be a little better engineered but in reality is hard to say it.. As I posted before not all D2D has the same top quality sound but the ones that have it are just outstanding and nothing beats it.

""" and drummer Jim Keltner .."""

well the Keltner track in the Sheffield Drum Record is just excellent, impressive and so full of TRUE that even we can’t " believe " exist this quality level sound in LP.

Yes For Duke with Bill Berry is great too. It’s very dificult to say which of so many D2D is the best, maybe could be better to say: the 10 best and that Flamenco Fever with out doubt can be in that list.
Btw, do you own it?

In my posts in this thread I forgot to mention that to listen and appreciate all the unique splendor of D2D recordings we must to listen at a little or not so little higher SPL over our normal SPL we listened. This is an important subject.


""" Doug Sax had proven in the early-1970’s that a direct-to-disc LP afforded higher sound quality than any tape recording ever made. """


no single doubt about ! ! !

If we are MUSIC lovers and like to enjoy it at the higher levels LP recordings can achieve we have to listen at least one of the top D2D through our audio life because with out that you can understand of what quality level we are talking in this thread with this specific subject.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : I understand that that was the first D2D ever. I can be wrong about but I remember it that way.

R.

Dear @tablejockey  : I own too some Angel 45rpm recordings but you need to listen the Toshiba 45rpm on a Steinway demostration. One of the best piano recordings I own.

R.

Dear @rvpiano : Yes, RR are very good even that are not D2D. Due that you own the M&K too do it you a favor and listen Flamenco Fever and Earl " Fatha " Hines recordings.The Flamenco Fever sale price is between 600.00 and 1K dollars.

@mr_m   https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-very-best-sound-direct-to-disc/post?postid=1958880#1958880

good that you confirmed it.

R.

Dear @rvpiano : """ and friends i’ve rediscovered the Sheffield and RR Direct Disc albums in my collection. """

I own all RR ( Reference Recording LPs. ) and if you are refering to that label those are not D2D LPs, very good but not at the Sheffield or M&K true D2D ones.

@mikelavigne I own the Elio Villafranca " Dynamic Resolution " LP that it’s a D2D one but for me it’s weird that no where in the disc jacket makes mention of that instead to that it’s a half-speed master. I love Elio great composer and an artist as a player. The recording is very good but for me not at the same level of the other two D2D labels I mentioned. Same with the first 12-15 D2D LPs by own Acoustic Sounds label.

Now, what could be the nearest recording alternative to the D2D one?. I’m a full ignorant on the whole recording process but even that I think that the digital recordings, where the tape recorder has no influence, ( not all ) like some of the Telarc’s that are really extraordinary or something more comtemporary coming from WindMusic label as its sample " Paramita " , this one you have to listen it to know what I mean about because it’s down there in the land of D2D quality performance or at least the nearest I experienced: the MUSIC is extraordinary and even a true challenge/test for any room/system on reproduction of it.

As the D2D the digital LPs have not the same quality performance, the Teldec or Philips and almost all DG and many others are not only good but really bad recordings. I own one D2D Telarc that’s way bad.

Other very near to D2D recordings are the ones " Live to two tracks " as the ones by Sheffield Labs or Audioquest, both labels very good. It depends too of the engineering skills on the whole recording process.

Yes there are several labels with great recording quality but nothing like the D2D recordings.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @rvpiano and friends : I own both versions opf the Sheffield " Discovered again " . The D2D and the one from the recorded tape.

With this LP samples you can be perfectly aware of the high degradation that the recording signal suffers when the information goes/pass through the recording R2R machines.
Differences are not small ones but higher that any one of us could think.

Unfortunatelly for LP manufacturers and musicians the D2D alternative is no more an alternative and as a fact never was. To much stress everywhere with no chance of editing or record a take 2 . Everything in D2D is as in a live evnt: we can change nothing and the errors down there stays there for ever but with out doubt is the best way to make LP shines if the D2D recordings were made by truly good engineers.
As I said before there are many D2D recordings that are bad recordings but not because the " media " but something wrong with the engineering down there during the recording process.

Between other things digital has the advantage that the recording machines does not affects the digital signal because the signal are only 0 and 1 and be readed as 0 and 1. No degradation to the signal.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @rvpiano : You are rigth D2D is the best LP recordings where there are not R2R insertion there but direct cut from the play session.

I own too all the Sheffield's and the M&K too that are outstanding too but not all D2D are that good it depends of the realeased enginnerings down there.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.