The urge to tinker is awash. What TT might better mine and why?

@markmendenhall 

Agree 100%.

T9

I’m by no means a techie, not even close, but the absolute minimalist design of the Nott makes me think (right or wrong) that it’s gonna play what’s on the record: no more, no less. Having owned two Notts going back 15 years, the reading I’ve done on materials and implementation tends to focus on bearing design, which is line with your thinking.  I look at all the mechanical and electrical parts inherent in rim drive and direct drive tables and intuitively I think simpler has to be better.  Of course that’s too easy to definitely conclude and proper implementation of most designs can yield spectacular results, we all know that from experience.  All my components stress ‘low noise floor’, including the Nott.  Music just creeps, erupts, eases, or bursts from a dead silent, inky black background and fills the stage with a wide and deep sonic panorama, particularly with well preserved and recorded vinyl.  

@markmendenhall personally i love the Nott sound and didn’t want to get away from it, so I just got ‘more of it’

Yep. And air bearings are yet more of the same. I much prefer the ’sound’ of really good bearings to anything else, regardless of the touted advantages of this technology or that.

Well after some tweaking of arm and cart setup on the Denon I can see why the dl103d is so popular.

It has bloomed nicely from the tweaking, bass has more depth, more air and separation. Overall a pretty good budget cart that came with tt so hard to complain.
And after looking at specs on VinylEngine it is really not a bad match for the arm.

However I will be trying out some vintage mm carts on this table along the lines of Pickering, Shure, ADC etc.
Its fun to have new toys and at the price point of vintage mm carts not the end of the world.

Uber

interesting thread:  a year ago I swapped out my spacedeck/spacearm (9”) for an ace spacedeck and ace Anna 10” arm; at the same time I added the Kiseki purple heart ns cartridge which replaced a cadenza bronze 

i use a walker audio motor controller and a Cary ph302 mk ii phono stage with a factory added external power supply ( similar to those used on the Cary slp98 pre amps ) - I put 4 circa 1950 vintage nos 6sl7 tubes in the phono stage

when all was said and done I achieved noticeable improvements in all areas of vinyl sound reproduction - incredibly low noise floor, great dynamics, detail, soundstage, you name it - the improvements were not subtle 

personally i love the Nott sound and didn’t want to get away from it, so I just got ‘more of it’

i think it’s the same with a speaker sound you prefer, if you like it and want ‘more of it’ just move up the line 

I would audition a suspended deck. If you like the characteristics a used Oracle Alexandria might be budget friendly. If you can find MK III or MK IV, they are more reliable and easier to set up; but hard to find. You can add your choice of tonearm, but there are some weight restrictions with all suspendeds. Of course if your budget allows, the Delphi is well worth a listen.

Of course, you could go Thorens or Linn, if you don’t mind being one of a pack.  ;^)

The Denon showed up this morning and have it spinning tunes right now.
Nothing much to dislike about it apart from I feel the dl103d cart is not the best choice but hey that is what it came with.
It is definitely brighter with less bass than my NA rig but that could be as much the cart.
Next move will be deciding on a good suitable mm cart... Or two ... Lol.

It's not incompatible, IMO, but I've never seen it done. I'd like to. Bear in mind that there are two sources of friction and noise: thrust, which is obvious, and radial to stabilize the platter. Even some air bearing turntables don't bother with radial, and the challenges of going contactless with DD, with any economy at all, seem daunting.

I have heard of the partial maglev technology, and even thought of using it in my DIY, but it's still a case by case thing, the devil being in the details. I've never heard of maglev used radially - sounds impossible to me. So we are left with two surfaces in contact, therefore a potential for noise, and I think that plastic bearings tend to produce noise.

Bottom line to me is whether there is bearing noise and whether it is imparted to the platter. I think that any bearing noise is transmitted, and hypothesize that it's the source of tizzy digital type sound. What are your views of the results of a bearing noise which is audible?

Why is direct drive incompatible with an air bearing? Are you aware of a few of the vintage direct drive turntables that use magnetic levitation so that the vertical bearing is not doing much weight bearing.?

You ask why.

I suggest that it depends on your taste. If you can’t stand wow and flutter, get a direct drive. They tend to control that very well. Personally, I don’t find wow and flutter nearly as offensive as tizzy digital-type sound.

If you can’t stand tizzy, try a premium belt drive. I suspect that tizzy comes from higher frequency speed variations, which can be audible if you listen carefully. The thrust bearing on a DD can be a noise generator - yes, even the best. At a recent trade event, the big new Technics was being demo-ed. They had a motor assembly on display, so I picked it up and turned the spindle. I could hear the bearing (teflon PTFE variant) - not loud, but it was there.

And compared to my NA and my air bearing, to me the sound (of music) was tizzy. Just like my Technics SL150(2) - set up with an air bearing tonearm, so that I could swap out wands and cartridges in known-perfect alignment, for comparison with my other tables in my own system.

Now try turning the spindle of a NA Dais bearing. Silence. Try that with an air bearing. Silence. I conclude that bearing noise is the source of tizzy, solving the mystery (to me) of why I didn’t like DD - and why, incidentally, one needs a bearing which is silent both axially and radially.

If you have perfect pitch and can’t abide even a hint of wow, get a CD player instead.

Thx Jperry.

Looks like vinylengine, eBay and the Gon will be my best friends in researching best cart for this arm.

2psyop

Sorry you feel that way.

Not all suggestions can be winners obviously!

No I do not want everybody to do my work for me, that is a silly statement.

Rather I prefer to take counsel from more experienced members and research from there.
I thought that is part of what these forums were for? To help, share and guide other members.
If my usage of them for that purpose offends you I am truly sorry.

After a number of members suggested a vintage DD might be worth a try, some by pm, that is the avenue I decided to pursue.

However I decided not to replace my present TT but experiment with a slightly cheaper version than the dp80 as a toe in the water.

We will see.

@uberwaltz,

"From what I understand I will need a high compliance cart in the weight range of 5 to 8 grams to stand a chance of the best match? "

That sounds about right, and you can use the tools available on vinylengine.com to calculate results. This and the very similar ADC LMF tonearms were designed to work with high compliance cartridges. So most of the Shure, Stanton, Sonus, Pickering and ADC cartridges were good matches with this tonearm. I used to own an ADC LMF-2 tonearm. I used an ADC XLM III and Sonus Blue with it.

Have fun!

Jim Perry

Uberwaltz-
You seem to shoot down many suggestions and want someone else to do all the work for you. If money is not the problem, buy three or four complete turntable systems, try them out and post your results. We can all benefit, your ears can determine the winner and we would not be wasting time offering suggestions.
I see you made a decision....good luck.

Quick look back through my history.

Yes the ADC ZLM was one, Grado Platinum  too, Shure V15VMR  as a few.

From what I understand I will need a high compliance cart in the weight range of 5 to 8 grams to stand a chance of the best match?

jperry
I would agree that the 103d is not the perfect match for the Black Widow but that is what is included so that is why I mentioned it.

I did read some reports on the black widow and carts that should work well with it and will have to go back and find them to get some better ideas for a good matching cart.

Congrats on your purchase. I would be interested in your comments on the comparison. A vintage MM like ADC ZLM or other high compliance cartridge will be a better match for the Black Widow. than a low compliance MC.

Bit the bullet on a Denon DP-1250 cw Infinity Black Widow arm and 103d cart.
We will see how this pans out.
My phono allows for instant switching between 2 inputs both configured independently.
It should give me some interesting times.

I have a Technics SL-1200G and SL-1600-MK2.  I've had the 1600-MK2 for about 35 years and it's still going strong.  I use an Ortofon Blue with it.  The 1600 is a fully automatic TT, which I love.  

The 1600 can't touch the 1200G (with Ortofon Quintet Black), but if you can find one in good condition, it should serve you well.

Thinking it will be very wise to keep my present TT setup BUT dip my toes into the vintage DD word with possibly a slightly cheaper model to start with, just as an alternative.

Present models I am looking at include Denon, dp-3000, DP-72, DP-1250 , Pioneer PL71

We will see....

Technics SL1000r with 3 arms??? Different sounds different genre - maybe a mono cartridge on one..?

seems like a space saving concept - my pal has 3 decks - 3 separate PHono stages .....
https://goo.gl/images/2jxLmN

I have a rega RP8 which I love ..... it’s not better than yours prob worse - but just leaves me wrapped in music hearing everything. But my only experience is coming from older Thorens 160super / sme/ nagaoka 500 which had no where near the clarity of Rega. 
I would spend it on records if I was you ....

It would be quite a boring world and not much of an adventure if we all followed that admittedly sage advice.

Fortunately I am inclined to explore and tinker, it's my nature.

that is true as well

uberwaltz

... the dp80 and it is certainly highly regarded ... the majority of the ones I see for sale are Japanese market at 100v. Any detriment to running one of these with a 120 to 100v step down transformer?

I am not sure that Denon ever made a 120VAC DP-80. When I bought mine new (from a US authorized dealer) it was delivered with a Denon-branded stepdown transformer.

@lewm 

Have been reading up on the dp80 and it is certainly highly regarded from my perusal.

However the majority of the ones I see for sale are Japanese market at 100v.

Any detriment to running one of these with a 120 to 100v step down transformer?

I am sure someone else must have done this with Japanese market equipment 

I’d like to upgrade from my stupid Pro-Ject table. I chose to donate to specific charities though.

money well spent. 

It would be quite a boring world and not much of an adventure if we all followed that admittedly sage advice.

Fortunately I am inclined to explore and tinker, it's my nature.

"Curiosity empties wallets.   If you're happy, go no further"  

I agree

Uber, My only "Denon" experience is with the DP80, the best they made for home use.  Second only to the DP100 and DP308, which are both megabuck items these days.  I would shoot for a DP75 or DP80, if I were you.  The cost is only a few hundred bucks more than a DP3000, if that's what you've got your eye on, and the product is better developed (since it came on the market later than the DP3000).  (DP75 is essentially the same as DP80. I used to know the difference, but I've forgotten.)  I'd also suggest Victor TT81 or TT101 or Luxman, if you can be patient enough to find any of those.

We are not, noromance was pulling your leg

So are we saying that DD and idler drive maybe better tech than belt drive?

Belts are elastic. Stylus drag is real. ;-)

@lewm 

Thank you and I guess I should explain what I mean by "why".
Not asking why will it sound better but why might the technology of a different TT help better the SQ of my present TT.

And yes I fully realise it is all still down to personal preference but with prices of TT running many thousands above mine I am genuinely curious.

You mention dd, something like Denon DP 3000 or similar?

As the owner of a much modified Lenco and four high quality DD turntables, and having owned a Notts Hyperspace before embarking on my odyssey with idler- and direct-drive, I feel confident in saying that any top notch vintage DD or any well developed Lenco or Garrard will certainly sound "different" from what you've got and in my opinion, better.  You keep asking "why", but most of the why is built into your own preferences, so it's hard to say why.  I can only say for myself that the idler and DD options produce music that is more like real.  You can read the cliches about rhythm and pitch elsewhere.

I  have had the GL 99 modified as you can upgrade the idler and bits more than you can the GL75. I certainly think you will not buy a pig in a poke with a good condition GL99 and 479$ in the above advert is a steal if in good nick. I paid £500 for mine but it was refurbished in all super finishes and looks perfect /new

I too have the Technics 1200G. Anyone want to buy it at £2,250 + postage? I did intimate that a quality set up LP12 would be much more preferable to your Nottingham. For example, I would certainly not buy a Nottingham over the lp12 as I would need to spend much more  than that to improve on what I have already. I am saving up for a limited edition Avid turntable as I reckon that may be the logical next step up, but it is 4 or 5 times the price of an lp12.
It depends on whether your overall goal is to improve (subjective) or just have a different experience. In my view (and Tom Evans) a good phono is more important than a good cartridge - but just as difficult to choose, well not difficult  for me as I know what I like.

I use two turntables, The Technics 1200G and the venerable VPI Scout with the acrylic platter. They are both great tables. Maybe keep yours and get another one. Sometimes you don’t know what you have until its gone.  The right cartridge make a difference.

@tatyana69

I will be interested to hear your comments on you Goldring/Lenco 99 when it arrives. Please post you comments. Thanks.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649211194-goldring-g99-heavy-platter-lenco-transcription-deck/

So the majority so far appear to consider not changing my TT but for odd reasons imho.

Not because it is the best already but because I should just not upgrade. Maybe they are right but there would be very little progress or evolvement if we did not make changes along the way. Sure I have already made my fair share of backwards changes but mostly in speakers so far.

Or so far nobody can really give me a good reason or model to upgrade too.

I have the same itch. I have an lp12 with Dynavector xv1t cartridge and AudioOrigami arm. I am very pleased with it and have tried other decks at costly expense and have always reverted to a well set up lp12 as it is so much more musical and dynamic than for example direct drive decks. I have a Tom Evans Groove + and from discussion with Tom I am upgrading to a Mastergroove. The point of this is to get as much as I can from my favourite equipment so I have a base level of high satisfaction  to value other options. Different records have different needs so I am interested in switching options.
I have tried a number of other phonos and none comes anywhere near the Tom Evans in my view for a number of reasons. I am running a bespoke high quality hand made switch box to put other turntables in my system for easy AB comparisons. I have heard the suggestions re GL 99 (?) above and was surprisingly impressed for the price ,so I am having a bespoke plinth made for 3 arms with the GL99 with 3 vintage arms and cartridges for fun. Will be ready maybe Jan 19 so that is something to look forward to.
What I am saying is basically max out (my suggestion is look at the phono stage first?) what you now enjoy, or prefer, to obtain a level that you can use as a reference point for any options. I haven't heard your deck so I don't know how far you can take it.

 But
mostly for fun
and using your words
” some BASIS”
.....

Said..... 2 many gear changers never even break in and optimize before moving on..... and on..... and on

my good friend RV says “ chasing tail “.....

i advise buying room treatments, isolation, laser measuring tool, RTA ( runs on your ipad w calibrated mic) and every Opus 3 test disc....

but hey, I get it

that is not sexy new....

btw enjoy your music posts

  ++++++ what @stringreen

Both my TT use the Trans-Fi arm, which is going back into production.

Why not stay with Tom Fletcher's sound?

When I heard the spacedeck (1997), I ordered the Mentor (now Dais). It is notably superior. Pear Audio is also a Fletcher design. I also have the Wave Mechanic power supply - another improvement.

IMO the tonearms were always a weak point, because of limited adjustability. The Trans-Fi Terminator tonearm also works superbly with NA. Don't know if it's still available - you could try.

Move the rug.... the wife would not approve.... lol

its a pretty old model and dark might be fitting but very detailed with the present cartridge. The shelter 501 it came with did not suit my ears at all

Sure thing on speaker position. I was thinking of moving the rug! Fair enough if they are spiked through. I wasn’t sure.
I enjoy Tidal streaming too but find, in many cases, my vinyl rig is more enjoyable especially with my collection of analog recordings. I heard the Space deck many years ago in London and thought it was okay, somewhat dark and unexciting. I felt that others, at the time, namely the Rock and Oxford Acoustics were better. I understand it’s been improved since so probably a moot point. Nevertheless, if that is the house sound, it's not to my taste. 

Noromance.
Where my speakers are right now gives me best presentation overall. Moving out to tile loses some focus and depth of vocals.
Right now they are spiked to 2 inch maple block's which in turn are spiked right through the carpet to the tile underneath. 

Thx Noromance.
Budget is not a huge issue IF there is a worthwhile gain to be had.
Although I listen to a lot of digital via streaming etc I still love to spin vinyl, I do not even try to compare the two, just too different imho.

Sidebar answer.

I love the flexibility and convenience of the touchscreen and being able to a-b two TT instantly. Did not crack and spend 1k on a power supply but it is fed through my equicore 1800 conditioner.

@dmix I believe the OP has the GN power supply.

@uberwaltz Why not try moving your speakers onto the tile for better rigidity?