I caught up on this 2018 version of Class D amp discussion from @erik_squires. Same talking points from a lot of the same contributors—right down to cut ‘n paste posts, analogies and jokes from other Class D threads. I found a few kernels of wisdom, though, to make reading every post worthwhile. My favorite? Post by @douglas_schroeder about his parallel IC method and the response by @erik_squires. 😂😂
The Truth about Modern Class D
All my amps right now are Class D. ICEpower in the living room, and NAD D 3020 in the bedroom.
I’ve had several audiophiles come to my home and not one has ever said "Oh, that sounds like Class D."
Having said this, if I could afford them AND had the room, I’d be tempted to switch for a pair of Ayre monoblocks or Conrad Johnson Premiere 12s and very little else.
I’m not religious about Class D. They sound great for me, low power, easy to hide, but if a lot of cash and the need to upgrade ever hits me, I could be persuaded.
The point: Good modern Class D amps just sound like really good amplifiers, with the usual speaker/source matching issues.
You don’t have to go that route, but it’s time we shrugged off the myths and descriptions of Class D that come right out of the 1980’s.
I’ve had several audiophiles come to my home and not one has ever said "Oh, that sounds like Class D."
Having said this, if I could afford them AND had the room, I’d be tempted to switch for a pair of Ayre monoblocks or Conrad Johnson Premiere 12s and very little else.
I’m not religious about Class D. They sound great for me, low power, easy to hide, but if a lot of cash and the need to upgrade ever hits me, I could be persuaded.
The point: Good modern Class D amps just sound like really good amplifiers, with the usual speaker/source matching issues.
You don’t have to go that route, but it’s time we shrugged off the myths and descriptions of Class D that come right out of the 1980’s.
288 responses
Yes George ,you are correct about those costs adding up, but, I would still have loved that front switch option. The nice thing about the Freya is it showed up quickly in The Harmony Data Base so I have a nice remote on hand for what functions it does have. I have gotten a lot quicker at reaching behind and through the wires at the back of the Freya to turn it on and off. I really have no complaints,and even though marketed as Hi-End at Low-End pricing , for this Budget Audiophile it IS Hi-End. and its got Tubes.. |
At $699 it’s got what it takes under the hood, Mike Moffat is no fool, he made Theta digital what it is when it was on top. What he’s done with Schiit is hiend at lowend pricing, using volume to make his profit. He’s giving Italian V12 quadcam horsepower but with US V8 supercharged iron and no glitz and glamour. $50 more for front switch, a $100 for a smarter chassis, $50 for a more expensive remote, all of a sudden your over a grand and it sounds the same. Cheers George |
I would have Paid $50.00 more dollars for an On/Off Switch in the front on the Freya. A 12V Trigger would have been a Bonus as well.Don't mind the clicking volume to much but you got to remember it goes to ZERO when ya mute it.Spent a couple of days trying to figure out why my Front Speakers quit working after installing an XBOX.Seems I accidentally hit the Mute Button on my Harmony 650 Remote. |
I enjoy Class D and I'm a tube guy. The front end of my winter system is a Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated running either EL34 variants or KT150s. It's just too much heat and electricity for the summer in my dedicated third floor room. I have a roof mounted AC unit that is pretty quiet, which I could crank up but that seems wasteful and I like the changing of system front end every 2 seasons. In the warmer months, I am running a Schitt Freya tube preamp with an NAD M22 power amp--Class D. I won't belabor things with long explanations about the sound. Instead, I'll just say the Class D "summer rig" is pleasant and isn't the abject, non-musical failure that some would seem to suggest in this Class D and other Class D posts. As a side note, I'm super curious to see if a Primaluna or similar/better tube preamplifier would be better than the Schitt. The Freya sounds great and only has a few drawbacks to me (i.e. power button on the rear of the unit, volume control intentionally makes clicking noise as you advance it up or down, no 12v trigger out). I will note that the Schitt/NAD M22 combo sounds way better with vinyl feeding my Manley Chinook than it does with Tidal feeding an NAD M51 DAC. But, I would say the same thing if the Primaluna integrated were swapped in for the Schitt/NAD M22 combo. |
@pinthrift I would have to agree, "with knowledgeable friends using NCore amps, great sound is available using Class D...with a little work and great cost effectiveness. Good power, dedicated lines, upgraded outlet(s) good wire can approach world class outcomes" Well put Norm. especially about the "auxiliary" equipment to allow the Class D units to sound their best. And just to note, the supportive/auxiliary gear (conditioners, etc) I ORIGINALLY used to make my transistor and tube gear sound better. But then all I did was exchange the SS/tube gear for Class D with the same conditioners, etc, and I got BETTER sonic outcomes with the Class D. In other words, if someone wants to make a case that "Class D only sounds better with cleaner power, etc"-- I am saying, that is not generally true. E.g: 1. Clean Power: I use a transformer isolator and a small conditioner for my front end gear. No etch or grain in the sound. 2. clean power cords: I'm now using a power cord from Triode Wired Labs for Class D units that removes any digital etch. Last, I've found that I can have "better" Class D sound with a hybrid design. E.g, I have a Cherry Ultra Class D amp (Digital Amplifier Company in PA) that uses an 1800w transformer with Class D for transients and big bands, and I'm hearing instruments and nuance I never heard before. also, with a more balanced and larger soundstage |
Hey Folks. Interesting discussion to me as I've had the NAD M2 (not Dad's NAD 3020... $6K) for several years, now. My "flavor" of sound is the sound of vocals and un-amplified instruments in an actual space, my having grown up around lots of live music. I am an "ANTI-RESONANCE" disciple since the mid 1990's, using the Marigo Audio Labs tuning dots expertly applied by Rick Taylor on all serious gear, internally and externally. Out of the box, there was some dryness and coldness that I do not favor.
The M2's cabinet is horribly resonant and needed addressing.
The tuning dots on the cabinet and exposed electronics brought things much closer to my liking. My "perfect world amp" would be the best of modern tubes and solid state merged. The beauty of modifying a single box approach like the M2 is that everything improves, pre/dac/amp. Upgrading the isolation feet and the power cord on the M2 came next, followed by Synergistic "blue" fuse. To begin to approach "world class" my DSP expert and I went to work on my small dedicated studio. Well done Class D begins from a very silent noise floor and terrific capability for high resolution with great sources. We can make 1/10th of a decibel adjustments and add a "taste" of tube harmonic sweetness. For hard core "purists"...lets not forget this is all "illusion." Again, not Dad's slider EQ at work here. As a 72 year old, passionate music lover of all genres, with knowledgeable friends using NCore amps, great sound is available using Class D...with a little work and great cost effectiveness. Good power, dedicated lines, upgraded outlet(s) good wire can approach world class outcomes. Cheers, Norm |
I agree with @erik_squires, you can’t make blanket statements that class D is “totally mediocre”. Have you heard Mola Mola Kaluga’s for example? We know somebody who moved over from the much regarded Soulution 710 to Mola Mola Kaluga's. The MM’s cost one fifth of the price and they drove his speakers effortlessly. Lansche and Manger among others choose to use MM amplification at the Munich High End Show. Not without reason. |
Not to steer this off topic, but no system can produce a convincing life-like sound, partly because the recording equipment cannot capture it.I've seen systems belie this statement. In particular, a direct microphone feed driving headphones can fool many audiophiles with great ease. I advise actually working with good mics and recording gear and see if you still say this. |
The truth is class D is totally mediocre.If you think its great jump on an amp ASAP!!!!Report this @ebm Blanket statements like this, without qualifying them with your experience, and speakers used are entirely unhelpful. Want to fill this in with what you find not-mediocre, and what Class D you have heard? Best, E |
| Post removed |
1extreme Excellent way of utilizing them as that’s where they shine at the moment, with their output impedance down in the milliohms region (damping factor massive), so long as the speakers load impedance doesn’t get real nasty, as most that I’ve seen don’t seem to like <3ohms too much. Cheers George |
I just wanted to weigh in here and say to all those who have low opinions of Class D amps and dismiss them outright, you may be overlooking their potential as a lower cost bi-amping solution for bass when looking for a solution for difficult to drive speakers. Even though you would never use them on the top end or as a single amp solution they do have cost effective applications on the low end, bi-amped. I have never heard a hi-end Class D amp so won't offer an opinion on their musicality. I do have two Crown XLS 2500 amps (low end Class D amps price wise at $595) pushing the woofers on my Infinity Kappa 9's and even these really delivery on the low end. So much so I have considered upgrading to a better Class D amp just for bass. (Suggestions welcome.) I have mono class A tube amps on the top end that cost over 10x the Crowns and of course there is no comparison. But together they sound excellent and these inexpensive Crowns have helped me avoid having to spend a lot on a big Class A SS amp like a Krell or other high current amp that these speakers need. |
Not to steer this off topic, but no system can produce a convincing life-like sound, partly because the recording equipment cannot capture it. This is most evident in note decay. Musicians will know what I'm referring to. Anyone who thinks their system can recreate a live performance should go buy a cheap guitar, play a few chords and compare that to their very best acoustic recordings. |
Adam, Adam I agree with the "somewhat artificial" assessment in many cases. If you ever get a chance to hear a pair of OHM Walsh speakers I wonder if they might shift your opinion somewhat. Especially off a good Class D amp and maybe a well-applied tube or two upstream if desired. The Ohms are a radically different design that excels in coherence and reverberant field which effectively bridges the gap between sounding hifi versus more lifelike. |
I am quite new to the audiophile world but I am a professional musician so I have quite a bit of experience with music and how I think it should sound. In my opinion, there will always be something artificial about electronic equipment trying to capture what the human ear (and brain) experiences in a live situation. Let's not forget the pro audio side of the equation i.e. what kind of mics, pre-amps, mixing board were used, mic placement and then, what kind of limiting and compression. And then on the hi-fi side, you go through a bunch of equipment again, trying at the very best, to reproduce what has been recorded. I'm seeing some comments about the lack of naturalness of class D but too me, everything in audio reproduction is somewhat unnatural. That's not to say it doesn't sound good, it's just not as sophisticated as what we experience when we listen to music live. I recently was at a hi-fi store and listened to 2 comparably priced and well-regarded integrated amps. One was class A/B and the other class D. Both sounded really good but emphasized different elements of the musical experience. The class D sounded more detailed and clearer but leaner and some would say clinical. The class A/B sounded more liquid and richer but some would say less detailed and congested. I think it just comes down to personal preference. Recordings are never going to sound like the "real thing"so you might as well just go for the sound that is pleasing to you. Maybe with my modest budget I have as yet to hear a system that captures everything that a live performance offers but I have a feeling that its a very very hard thing to do. BTW I preferred the class D amp but I thought they were both very very nice |
I agree Class D is just fine. Competes just as fine as any other design tube or SS. Class A is also very fine but problem there is size weight and overall cost of ownership especially if many watts called for. Class D these days easily competes and offers unique benefit in these areas that matter practically to many. George talks like no Class D amp can compete with any other kind whereas we all know quality and cost varies greatly with all kinds of amps. Now if one wants to compare a specific class D amp to some other then there may be something worth talking about. That's the truth. ☝️ |
weak1657 posts09-07-2018 11:57pmGeorge I clicked on the GaN link you provided, Alas, it does not account for XLR This one has balanced. http://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/guides/EPC9106_qsg.pdf Cheers George |
I am very impressed with the PS Audio Sprout100 when using my DaytonAudio Bookshelf speakers and a Raspberry Pi as my USB source. The Bass Boost they built in is adequate, but this amp really needs a sub-woofer for a foundation. At lower listening levels, like a bedroom, I see that a Class-D amp is a good choice. But to compare it to the Denon AVR-2805 for SQ, there is no comparison. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
georgehifi
We had better quote some noted designers as well. Bob Carver and so on... Most if not all of those comments were published 5 years ago - from what I have read much progress has been made meanwhile. |
I am in the IT field and I worked in computer retail for awhile in the 90's. Sometimes I would have people come in and they were what I came to call "specced out" and suffered analysis paralysis. I still remember this one guy, over 20 years ago. He wanted the fastest hard drive. We carried a certain brand and he would bring in spec sheets for other brands. This one was .5ms faster in read time, this other one was 1ms faster in write time. He wasn't going to see a difference, but the SPECS! I feel like a lot of people are like this about class D. It CAN'T be as good as Class A because of dead time or switching, or whatever. Just like the guys that pop up in threads (usually amps) and say it can't sound good because it didn't measure as well as this other amp. I have a little bit of everything: tube, SS, and class D. My class D is a Peachtree Nova 220SE. I like it a lot and over the last 18 months it has gotten more and more time in my main system. I do have some vintage McIntosh stuff too, their first SS stuff and it sounds great as well. After I recapped the 2505, it sounded amazing. If I listen critically, there are definitely differences, but it is hard to say what is "best." I have enjoyed reading this thread, but I choose to trust my ears. I don't care about dead time or switching, or whatever else. I want it to sound good. If it sounds better because you have fixed those issues, then great! I do think Class D is the future and it will only continue to get better. But I am getting ready to build a single ended tube amp, so maybe I am crazy :) |
Talking about "sonic signatures" of amplifiers it is worthwhile to mention (and read about) Bob Carver and Bruno Putzeys. The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com Bob Carver - Wikipedia "Carver caused a stir in the industry in the mid-1980s when he challenged two high-end audio magazines to give him any audio amplifier at any price, and he’d duplicate its sound in one of his lower cost (and usually much more powerful) designs. Two magazines accepted the challenge." Bruno Putzeys: Head of the Class (D, That is) | Sound & Vision 6moons audio reviews: Acoustic Imagery Atsah |
brianlucey +1 well said. |
"Truth" is a word like "Fact" ... it is only for science. Taste is not science. That is a fact, for example. Class D at it’s best is great for some and lacking for others, and that’s fine. Stop justifying your purchase, it’s the essence of admitting you’re insecure about it. If you’re happy ... great ! LISTEN and ENJOY !! That’s the goal here, it’s not a contest or a science project ... to love music. |
It’s simple. You cannot put anything into the air besides a hot air balloon. At best you can create a glider and glide down from above, but the idea that you could build a machine heavier than air that could hold a person a motor and fuel combined is ridiculous. Just think of the weight of the fuel alone! Gasoline weighs over six pounds per gallon. To have enough gasoline to push against the ground with a motor or fan of some sort would require monstrous gasoline consumption. It is utterly ridiculous to imagine that you could do anything useful with a machine and flight. The machine itself, the motor, the fuel and the pilot simply are not sustainable. Not only is it physically impossible, but dear god, it’s a foolish venture to attempt to make such death traps into a business. You could never produce an actual plane that could carry itself for long, let alone cargo, people, or get anyone to pay to have the gargo moved that way. Anyone who shipped via an airplane would surely loose their valuable posessions that way. And comfort? What kind of comfort could you experience from falling out of the sky? No, sir, no. It is clear that rational human beings should stick to balloons. |
My speaker system is DIY, assembled from various sources: Bullet tweeters + 300 Hz conical-horns with field-coil modified B&C DCM50 compression drivers + (2) 15" Acoustic Elements DiPole 15" woofers in (2) U-frame cabinets per side. Each driver is powered by a modified/upgraded NuForce Ref 9V3 amp. The midrange horns are driven by Ref 9 monoblocks, the other drivers are powered by 6 channels of a 7-channel NuForce HT amp, with the same modules as the mono amps (also modified/upgraded). If I switched to eight Class A or Class A/B amps - either tube or solid state - the listening room would be far too hot and my electric bills would go through the roof. Class D is the only practical way to go for me. I am not wealthy. My stereo can go toe-to-toe with any system out there. Like any ultra-accurate system it is brutally revealing of bad source material. But great recordings shine like the sun. |
I do respect everybody else experience and I believe it's system dependent. I can see a very front image Persona or similar as a great match for Class D. Being a recent and proud owner of SF Memento, which I like better than the one in above and few others including recent SF as well, I had to look for a replacement for my beloved Karan Acoustics integrated amp in the need for more power at lower impedance. My local dealer kindly let me test at home and at his place Luxman 900, 700, 590, Krell and AR ( I skipped Mc all together and $oulution) and then Bel Canto m600 and Black. To my not so young anymore ears Bel Canto Class D do sound very good and again might work very well with many systems. Musically speaking ... well I am very happy were I landed with a 625s2... |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Which approach is best: modding a Prius to be almost as quick as a Lambo (with better MPG), and charging Lambo prices, or just starting from the ground up with a real gas-guzzling Lambo?+1 That's about it alright, for now anyway. I think we maybe in for a shock in the not too distant future, re all the stuff EPC is doing with the GaN. Then all the Class-D's being raved about at present, will become as popular as solid state was when they were made with Germanium transistors when Silicon transistors hit the market. You couldn't sell them to save yourself, they made excellent door stops and that was it. Cheers George |
What many of you will realize is class D is the future of audio amplification. I believe that is inevitable. IMO.It already is, but that's because most consumers don't care about audio quality and manufacturers are constantly looking for ways to skimp on production costs. The benefit to the consumer is saving a few $$ on their electric bill. The benefit to the manufacturer is lower production and shipping costs. As BP clearly states, sound quality is not the intended benefit: S&V: Generally speaking, what are the key benefits of Class D versus the traditional Class AB and Class A designs that have long been favored by audiophiles? Which approach is best: modding a Prius to be almost as quick as a Lambo (with better MPG), and charging Lambo prices, or just starting from the ground up with a real gas-guzzling Lambo? Personally, I'd take the latter though I can understand the argument for the former. |
These guys are leading, advancing future of Class-D with their GaN semiconductors. There’s much to choose from on the EPC GaN Class-D website. After having a good look at everything this one is the pick I think, it’s got everything, programmable DSP and the kitchen sink. digital inputs, analog inputs, usb. Just hook up +-32v and away you go. 8ohm 200w supposed to double into 4ohm 400w?? that’s like saying perpetual motion is real, https://youtu.be/4b8ZsFszE8I?t=2 be nice to see what it can do into 2ohms. http://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/thirdparty/EAS_eGaN_2.0-Channel_EvalKit-010116.pdf Cheers George
|
I am in agreement with Erik. I have a Class D integrated hybrid amp and if it suffers from switching distortion or dead time, I sure as hell can't hear it. Granted, I haven't been able to compare it to dozens of other amps, class D, AB, A, or otherwise. But what I have had in the past which was a McIntosh C-45 preamp and MC-402 poweramp. It took less than 5 minutes out of the box (new Class D) cold and not broken in yet, to tell it was vastly superior to the Mac gear. It has what a lot of you considered outdated Hypex 400 modules and to my ears still sounds wonderful. I have been exposed to the expensive exotic stuff over the years and don't feel I'm missing much in resolution, dynamics, smoothness, musicality or whatever. There are several of you that seem to think Class D is almost unlistenable, probably in not so many words. Why so many of you have to make such a big deal about it is beyond me. What many of you will realize is class D is the future of audio amplification. I believe that is inevitable. IMO. |
@lukaske @toetapaudio Note the VERITAS Monoblocks from Merrill Audio used the Hypex NC1200 module for years. It was tested by many audiophiles and societies against other implementations and was found to still be the best. We now have a new proprietary Class D design from Merrill Audio on the Oganesson Line of amps. These are an order of magnitude better then the VERITAS or anything else in that group. What makes the difference in the use of GaN transistors. Tthe MOSFETS in the prior Class D designs, including the Hypex simply cannot do what the GaN transistors can. Other Class D designs, including the Hypex NC1200 utilize heavy feedback which tend to have loss of detail and become sluggy. Now imagine no feedback loops. That brings a new sense of ease and air to the music, along with a strong, fast attack, yet no overhang or edge. Soon the discussion will shift to who has the best Class D versus is Class D good. We believe we are leading the way on that. |
