The "Snake Oil" Trope


Yeah I know, a controversial topic, but after 30+ years of hearing both sides and seeing how the argument has evolved over the years, I want to say my piece.

First, I want to debunk the idea of ever using the term, "Snake Oil" because it has been incorrectly appropriated and is not being applied genuinely. For a product to be "Snake Oil" it isn't a simple matter of, "it doesn't do what it claims to do." It has to contain a few more qualities. Chief among them, the materials or ingredients have to be fake, falsified, or non-existent. I have yet to encounter a single premium cable manufacturer who has claimed to use copper or silver and it was fake.

This would be an example of cable "Snake Oil" if it existed:

Company claim: "A 10 gauge speaker wire made of ten 9's pure silver, extracted from conflict-free mines, using NASA quality FEP dielectrics, braided in 24 strands of 17 gauge wire, all concealed in the newly developed element, Star-Spangled-Bannerite, that enhances and boosts all frequencies, repairing broken audio as it travels down the conductor."

Reality: Cutting open the wire you find 3 strands of 14 gauge aluminum wire, wrapped in Glad's saran-wrap, threaded through a 10 gauge rubber garden hose, covered in a fancy colored net.

My biggest problem with the nay-sayer community is the hypocrisy of their accusation that premium quality cables are "Snake Oil" when their charts, measurements and tests have the same level of skepticism they purport to debunk. Using "Snake Oil" to prove "Snake Oil?" Ask yourself the following questions when you next see some online or vlog rant about how cables don't make a difference and they have the measurements to prove it:

1) Did they actually connect the cables to speakers and listen?
2) If they made measurements, did they show you how those cables were connected when they conducted the tests?
3) If it is a vlog, did they show in the video live footage of them conducting the test or is everything after-the-fact?
4) How does the test prove quality and how does the author quantify "quality?"

99% of the time the answer is "no." You just see people posting pictures of charts that could have been made using any form of software.  Heck, I could make one in Photoshop that dictates any conclusion I want. The truth is, there isn't a single form of equipment or measurement software that tests the actual perceived quality or clarity of a signal.

For example, "that guy" from Audioholics posted a video bashing a $4000 Audioquest speaker cable.  He claims to have run it through tests and he posted pictures of graphs that he gave conclusions for.  Not once did he show how it was connected to the machines or equipment. More over, he claimed to have broken the cable, by easily snapping off the banana plug (made of pure copper coated in silver). Well, if that were true, then how could he have possibly connected the cable correctly to test it?  He also claimed the cable was on loan from Audioquest.  Red flag. Audioquest does not send out one speaker cable to test; they'd have sent out a pair.  He also wasn't at all concerned that he had broken a $4000 loaner cable.  Therefore, I suspect someone else broke their own cable and let "this guy" borrow it for a video. Lastly, he claims to test the effectiveness of the "DBS" system by showing you a digital read out on some other machine.  He claims to unplug the DBS system live...but...off screen, and the digital read out changes. That makes absolutely no sense, since the DBS system isn't tied to the actual conductors or connectors. It's a charged loop from end to end and only keeps the insulation's dielectric field charged. So unplugging it while a signal is being passed through the cable wouldn't change anything. Therefore,  the nay-sayer argument, in this instance, was nothing more than "Snake Oil" trying to prove "Snake Oil."

Another time, someone was given a premium XLR cable, but had no idea what an XLR cable was.  They didn't recognize the connector format; a red flag straight away!  Then goes on to claim all the different measurements they took from it and how it was no better than the free cables you get from manufacturers.  Well, if that is true, how was this cable connected to the equipment? If he didn't know what the XLR format was, then it stands to reason they didn't have an XLR input on the equipment they used to test. Therefore, how in the world was this an equitable or viable test of the quality if the cable's conductors weren't all being used correctly during the test? Not once did this person connect it to an audio system to say how it sounded. How do electrical measurements translate into sound quality if one refuses to listen to it?

My final argument against the nay-sayers is one they all have the most trouble with. They don't use the Scientific Method.  For example, where's the control in these tests? What system or cable do they universally *ALL* agree is perfect and that they test against? The systems and cables always change and are never consistent. Why is it that they argue for an A / B test, but aren't willing to set one up for themselves? As if it's someone else's responsibility because they refuse to be responsible for their conclusions. Why is it that they only test low end or middle grade cables, but never seem to run these tests on the highest levels? Why is it that the majority of nay-sayers never purchase any of this equipment to find out for themselves?

What I have discovered after 30+ years of arguing this topic, is that the nay-sayers just don't want to have to buy expensive cables.  Instead they seek out any form of cognitive bias they can find to use as justification to not buy it.  Then suddenly concern themselves with other people's purchase power and tell them not to purchase such cables, as if these people are spending their money. Or they claim that they should have spent all that money on better equipment. Touche', but if they bought better equipment, they'd still buy premium cables to push that better equipment. That's like saving your money to buy a Lamborghini, then deciding on buying 15 inch steel rims with narrow tires for it because wheels are wheels...they bought a better vehicle, so won't need premium tires...or premium gas because the engine is superior. *eye roll.* What it seems to boil down to is that they don't like the idea that just buying premium cables alone can surpass a high grade, well-engineered system. To borrow from my car analogy, buying premium tires for a 4-cylynder hatch back won't make it go any faster, but it will effect some performance, likely gas mileage and road grip. Using the same analogy, buying better cables is akin to buying a turbo kit, back-exhaust system, better suspension, better intake valves, better cold air filters, etc to make that 4-cylinder hatch back perform nearly as well as a stock   Lamborghini.

Final thoughts, "Snake Oil" salesmen back in the day weren't just interested in defrauding their customers, they wanted to do it with the least amount of effort. They didn't try to get authentic, high quality ingredients to make the oil look or taste better.  They used whatever was on-hand and as free as possible. Cable companies sure seem to go out of their way to acquire the best possible conductors and materials, and have R&D teams engineer complicated wire geometries and spend years finding ways to treat the cables, or develop active tech to impact the signal, just so they can make a few bucks. If the product had absolutely no impact on sound quality, at all,  it wouldn't take long for well-engineered systems to reveal their faults and the industry would tank, almost over night. Clearly, they haven't and it's because it isn't "Snake Oil" no matter how many times that old trope is trotted out.

One of the serious problems in this entire discussion is that the perception of "quality" is 100% subjective to the listener, the state of the equipment, the room it is being conducted in, and health of the listener. After years of auditioning my system to people, I realized it isn't a simple matter of asking, "How did that sound to you." You have to be very specific.  Ask, "Did you hear that specific sound?"  9 times out of 10, they'll say they didn't hear it.  So you play it again and point it out.  Then they light up and realize that no matter how many times they heard that song, they had never heard that particular sound.  Then they go and compare it to the car radio or through their device's ear buds and realize they cannot hear it or couldn't hear it as clear.  Then they come to respect what you're trying to achieve.




128x128guakus
Hoping there are enough in agreement that cables make a difference to sound. I have no need to argue with those that disagree.

My system improvements will be of no interest to them, and I have no interest in their narrow mindedness.

After much thought and research, I bought my 'end game' interconnects two years ago.
Probably not able to do that again. And honestly, the sound transmitted through them is good enough that they will be my last pair.
Guakus = Mortimer Snerd     

Any guesses as to the identity of Edgar Bergen.     

@jerrybj kinda hard to know, you should consider documenting your system on the virtual system page.

Wonderful you are happy !

best to you

Jim
My earlier questions still stand. Why do the cable nay-sayers feel the need to argue so much? Why do you care if I don't agree with your opinion? I think cables make a difference and you don't. Fantastic! There is no need to resort to insults or demeaning comments about our intelligence. That just means you have no argument as you cannot disprove a subjective opinion. For example, I think Mark Rothko was a terrible artist. I don't think his paintings are real art. I don't have to have any scientific evidence to prove my subjective opinion. Same with the cables. The sound that comes out of my system is also subjective. Why else would we all be constantly search for better components?

Thanks!
@tomic601 

No photos to post at present.
Amp away getting recapped.
Speakers in a cupboard, due to a 1 year old's frequent visits.

Certainly nothing exorbitant. Although my wife disagrees a little.

Best purchase in the last three years were the ATC SCM19v2 speakers.
@jerrybj

I feel you. I really wanted a place where I could talk about how different cables affect the system. Maybe even get some guidance on which DAC to eventually upgrade to.

My first post was about my recent addition of Shunyata’s newly released Venom V16 power distributor, using their Delta v2 XC power cable from their reference line.

Not one single response asking questions about the product or how it sounded. Just one post from someone who took issue with my issues about replacing the Audioquest in my system. *shrug*

So much for scientific rigor. My last post's questions as to cable naysayers cable purchasing decisions was not meant to be rhetorical. So it seems the objectivist cable purchases are actually subjective choices, based on whatever? They don't in fact practice what they preach in regard to cable purchases, they didn't use double blind testing in determining their purchase.

I understand they have a point to make in there isn't always scientifically valid explanations as to claims of qualitative sound differences in cables. But this doubt isn't proof there isn't, many reasons for that, plenty of posts in other cable threads as to those reasons.

As to simplified judgments as to how we subjectivists are sheep and mindless consumers of marketing drivel. Some may be, but the vast majority of us, based on my observations are simply seeking the best sound quality at a price we can afford. We don't care about packaging, manufacturer's boasts of this and that. We simply listen to cables in our systems and make judgements as to what sounds best. Seems like all you so called objectivists have done the same, unless you're one who refuses to audition cables above some subjective price point.
Years ago, when all this cable controversy began, I decided to learn for myself as to validity of various conclusions. I tried many, many cables through lending library at Cable Company, digital, analog, speaker, IC, power, balanced, single ended. The only final valid conclusion I could come to is that cables do sound different from one another. Does price correlate to sound quality, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some of the cables I tried were highly praised, didn't do anything for me. My take away was perhaps they did in their system, not in mine, no objective conclusions for me. I could have concluded those people tin eared or delusional, but I choose to not be so judgemental when I've not heard those exact cables in their systems, in their listening rooms.

The extreme complexity and uniqueness of our systems and our ear/brains/minds makes it impossible to judge what another hears from their system. The whole undertaking of building and listening to an audio system is just so overwhelmingly subjective in totality, how one can assign some objective criteria to the entire experience is simply wrongheaded. Yes, objective criteria can be used for certain components within the entire system, but in a global sense, I think not. And then, why is it that every system is likely singularly unique in this total human population, could it have something to do with it being a subjective experience? In the end, I cannot objectively judge anyone's subjective judgment of their own system. I can have ideas in regard to their system based on my experience, but judgments, no.
Finally, in the end, I don't really care whether one believes cables sound different or not. It has no bearing on my listening to my system and the pleasure or angst it brings. This ongoing and never ending argument is much more about ego, attempts to make people think like us is a fool's errand.
@sns

You touch on many good points.  Let's take cables and other tweaks out of the equation.  What makes one speaker better than another if it has the same exact specs? If a $20,000 speaker can do 20hz to 20Khz @ 4 to 8 ohms and a $500 speaker can do 20hz to 20Khz @ 4 to 8 ohms, then what's the difference? Specs are specs and the signal is the signal, right? How can one sound better than the other?

Once you ask this, you'll find eerily similar responses to those that support premium cables. Yet, you won't see these folks busting out their "test equipment" and software generated "graphs" to prove that their speaker or stereo setup is better than another. It would seem in their narrow view of the audio world, the value of a system is in the COST spent for equipment. Yet cannot be true for cables. If that amp is $5000 it must be good for "reasons" and not "Snake Oil" and better than an amp that cost $500. No way an amp or pre-amp manufacturer could/would put "Snake Oil" in the system. LOL! They won't bother to read and understand the tech and specifications of premium cables, but you had better bet they have all  the marketing buzz-words for their stereo equipment memorized.

Funny how that works. Hypocrisy most foul.


@tomic601

Folks are biting alright.  Just at each other and not on any finer points of the discussion.
Music is subjective. Sound is objective. We can measure sound but not music.
@sbayne

You can measure frequency, but determining whether that frequency sounds good is subjective. Just like sound can be objectively determined to be music based on the definition of the word music, but whether that music is any good is subjective.
@ femoore12:

Why do nay-sayers feel the need to argue so much?

Because you refer to people who disagree as naysayers, and people like jerrybj call them narrow-minded, that’s why. Or people like guakus who claim they are deaf altogether.

You throw out the bait, they bite, and then surprise surprise, you act all indignant.

“They probably have never listened to expensive cable. If only the naysayers would try them out”, yadda yadda.

🙄 Well guess what: I HAVE paid your price to legitimacy in this discussion. I HAVE tested in the vicinity of a dozen cables in my system, many costing what I spent on my amps, and decided that what difference I thought I might be hearing was just as likely to be a physiological consequence of an undigested potato, quite negligible and most certainly not worth the cost.

Frankly, I’m being generous. I heard no difference that was replicated day in day out.

And certainly, compared to the difference of spending a mere $200 on fire resistant burlap to make my room semi-anechoic, the difference is minuscule.

I hope you guys are being paid handsomely by the cable manufacturers for all the hard work ya’all put into trying to sell this stuff to us.

The guy who I am trying out for the first time to repair my cartridge has cables as thick as baseball bats. He claimed that they cost him $25K. I was stunned, frankly. That is approaching the value of my entire system. It made me immediately question whether I should leave my cartridge there, 😆. I did leave it. Hopefully it will be fine when I get it back.
I haven’t tried cables since I made the most dramatic improvement to my system: the semi anechoic room. 

I’ve signed up with the Cable Company Rental, filled out their form. Let’s see what they recommend. 

Don’t hold your breath, guys.
I won’t.

Please read the discussions on learning to listen for new characteristics. Your inability to hear at all what others do easily is not evidence of us having mass delusion. It is evidence of your having a great big glaring gap in your listening skills. The discussions didn’t get far. Most who can’t hear are not only not interested in learning but worse, actively working to prevent others making progress. Please either learn to listen, or at least go and start your own discussions on your superior head firmly in sand approach to audio.


Music is subjective. Sound is objective. We can measure sound but not music.

Actually we don’t even know how to measure sound.

What we can measure pretty well is pressure waves in air. That is what decibels are by the way. Pressure waves. Not sound. The difference is sound is not a physical phenomena. We talk as if it is but clearly it is not. Sound is an experience.

I said it before, and it didn’t even come from me it came from Watts. A lot of puzzling paradoxes make sense once you see the world and the words for what they are. When a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound? No. It vibrates air. That is all. You can use a microphone to record the vibrations. You can use a stereo to reproduce the vibrations. All you have done is moved the vibrations around. The vibrations only become sound when heard by an organism. Minus the organism it is all just atmospheric pressure waves. You by virtue of being this special organism evoke these qualities of sound and music out of an otherwise sterile lifeless universe.

Don’t ever short change the human being.
The human hears differently than the machine. but then I could get a robot to listen for me and report on sound.
Really? I've not purchased a robot because they still have a ways to go perfecting the Scarlett Johansson.
Millercarbon, your attitude is a huge turnoff.
You people just presume we can’t hear. I’ll be in a room with a dozen other people, I hear something, others notice my attention is distracted, and I bring it to their attention. 

There’s an expression among some of us audiophiles. I don’t know if it will make it past the audiogon sensors. Let’s put this in allegorical form, not directly as a NYC person such as myself is usually inclined. 

The size of a man’s speakers are in inverse proportion to the size of his other equipment. I think we can apply the concept to cables as well. But we will see. I’m at least making the concession to make one more go at this.
Hey look, I assume nothing. You literally said yourself you can’t hear.
Frankly, I’m being generous. I heard no difference

Your words not mine. Which is fine. I have said many, many times I believe people when they say they can’t hear a difference. I believe you.

Where I have to say "not fine" though is when you pull your hypocritical "attitude" attack!

I hope you guys are being paid handsomely by the cable manufacturers for all the hard work ya’all put into trying to sell this stuff to us.


This is NOT fine! YOU said YOU can’t hear. All I said is I believe you. I never accused you of being a paid shill. I never said you are faking it. I never tried to sell you anything, nor has anyone else. Also never made any attacks disparaging you personally. Even though, as one might say, there is plenty of material to work with!   

I think the evidence shows you are the one needs to give the attitude a rest.


@ unreceivedogma
Because you refer to people who disagree as naysayers, and people like jerrybj call them narrow-minded, that’s why. Or people like guakus who claim they are deaf altogether.
Fair enough. I shouldn’t have used the word naysayer. However, it gets tiring being told I am not hearing what I know I am hearing. Again, why does it matter? It’s perfectly okay if I hear something different.

No one seems to argue like this if food tastes different between folks. We all have taste preferences. My brother can pick out the individual ingredients in a soup while all I can taste is if it’s salty or not. I don’t tell him he cannot taste what he does. Sound and music is the same.

I do notice a lot of comments claiming that we all must be getting paid by cable manufacturers or we are trying to sell cables. Does anyone have any proof of that claim? 

Cheers!
" Or people like guakus who claim they are deaf altogether. "

I give as I get. If you tell me "it’s all in your head" I’ll tell you you’re deaf. Fair trade.
Not so fast. unreceiveddogma insults all of us as shills, saying
I hope you guys are being paid handsomely by the cable manufacturers for all the hard work ya’all put into trying to sell this stuff to us. 

Nobody is selling anything. He doesn't even try to show where we are, just throws his insults out there as something known to be true simply because it gets repeated. There's a word for that. Dogma, I believe it is.

unreceiveddogma owes us all an apology. Not just me. Read what he said. "I hope you guys are being paid handsomely". You guys. All of us who hear and understand the value of quality cables, he's calling us all shills.


The more I read the more it sounds like religious arguments. "O ye of little faith." As if my beliefs depend on yours. What arrogance, and whenever skeptics appear, indignation and a call for scientific tests ironically appear. 
And such awe of cables and an over emphasis on tweaks does threaten our interests as new enthusiasts could feel lacking, not to mention turned off by cultic parallels.
@millercarbon...” Where I have to say "not fine" though is when you pull your hypocritical "attitude" attack! “

Oh The Irony...
Ideas and opinions are increasingly obsolete as humankind evolves/devolves. Innovations in human communication means we all have more than enough information to become expert in whatever endeavor/debate we choose. Experts tend to become enamored with their opinions/ideas, segue into beliefs.

Recently, it came to my attention that robots/machines cannot hear, and humans cannot be objective. Therefore, I will carry on as before and listen and build my system for my own pleasure. I heard cables with different sound signatures, therefore, cable choices for me may be in flux from time to time.
I have no problem with naysayers claims that cables make no difference to them, this is a subjective viewpoint. But for them to claim cables can make no difference to anyone goes into the belief realm. Also, hypocritical in when backing this claim with scientific rigor in the form of double blind tests which they in fact didn't use when deciding on their own cable purchase.
I do see this one difference between the two packs of believers. While cable believers will argue amongst themselves as to qualitative judgments of cables, naysayers have no such issue. Many shades of grey for most cable believers, its all black and white for the objectivists. So my question is: Can a belief system even exist when so many shades of grey exist? Seems like pretty shaky religion to me. So, are we in fact, not really believers, merely holders of opinions? Belief thrives in black and white estimations of truth.

Further, this belief is built on the idea of scientific rigor and double blind tests. Has a single naysayer ever heard every single cable in double blind test?  Assuming not, an absolutist belief system built on speculation, that kind of belief system shouldn't last a day.

This is the last subjectivist vs objectivist cable thread I'll participate in. There is no argument really, we're all subjectivists and to say otherwise is a falsehood. No machine or robots can stand in for us and present us with some objective set of data to negate human subjectivity, and no religion or belief system can dictate what is objective truth. I leave it to those defending beliefs and religions to fight it out.
sns - "There is no argument really, we're all subjectivists and to say otherwise is a falsehood. No machine or robots can stand in for us and present us with some objective set of data to negate human subjectivity..." Yep, thats the bottom-line. I've been saying that for years. 
We're touching onto a human phenomenon that has always been the downfall of human civilization.  The "Us vs Them" dilemma. One side gets an idea that the other side cannot tolerate. It builds and tension grows until it boils over. No side ever comes out on top. Generally, there is a great collapse and then a slow rebuild, until the cycle starts again.

The thing that separates "Cable Theory" from causing the downfall of audio and being an audiophile, is money. As has been stated in this thread, people are spending their money on expensive cables regardless of nay-sayer opinion.  Therefore, their opinion has little weight or affect on the industry. It begs the question of, "why bother making the argument to begin with?"  As has also been said in this thread, whose business is it to command people, through besmirching, on what folks should or shouldn't buy?

I know I will continue to receive condemnation for my opinion and statements, but I am going to sink it further by stating what *MY* observation over the decades has been. Some might identify with it and others won't.  Every instance I have come across on the "snake oil" trope begins the same way:

Person One: "I got this cool cable and it made this awesome impact on my sound."

Person Two: "You're <insert demeaning insult here> for spending all that money.  It's 'snake oil.'"

Then the argument begins. Not to paint with so big a brush, but it fits the definition of bigotry.

"obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. "

Sorry to say, but we have seen this very behavior on this thread.

Yeah, I am aware, the incorrect and all too common counter to this is, "But you're not being tolerant of our intolerance against your belief!!  That means you're a bigot too!!!" This misconception is because no one wants to feel bad about being wrong. However, being intolerant of someone's intolerance, isn't bigotry. Sorry, it isn't, no matter how convenient it is to think so.

So, by all means, bring on the hate. It won't change anything. My system will still sound good to me as will my belief that the cables I purchased are easily 50% of the reason it sounds good. The only person who has to enjoy my system is me.
We're touching onto a human phenomenon that has always been the downfall of human civilization.

So, by all means, bring on the hate. It won't change anything.

What a lovely thread.


"Enjoying" isn't the correct term.  It's more akin to the morbid curiosity of glancing at the horrific car accident as you slowly pass by.
gaukus,

You're Agon fit!  5 pages  deep and going  Keep at it.

I'm somewhere between hard science and audio hocus pocus.
@three_easy_payments

" morbid curiosity "

At least you admit you have a problem.  Glad to be of help. :D

@tablejockey

" You're Agon fit! "

I'll let the admins decide that.

" I'm somewhere between hard science and audio hocus pocus. "
Whatever floats your boat. :)
Millercarbon:

I misspoke. I meant to say "little" not "no". But I question what I did hear.

I’m not the only one who thinks you are ... well, this guy accuses you of being gullible. He offers pragmatic, common sense and useful advice. From not even a month ago:

https://ledgernote.com/blog/q-and-a/are-expensive-studio-cables-worth-the-money/

I am communicating with the Cable Company. There’s is a twist to my research project, anecdotal though it may be.
" He offers pragmatic, common sense and useful advice "

No, he offers confirmation bias. It's typically a red flag when you see a headline: "Is X,Y, Z Worth The Money?" If you have to ask the question, the answer is 99% of the time, "no."
@tomic601 ,

Yes, what happened to the cable null test?
Or the cable measurement comparison?
Or the joined coat hanger comparison?

The only thing about cables that’s beyond dispute is Noel Lee and his bank balance.


The first and the most successful cable entrepreneur.

Many seek to emulate him.

That’s not really surprising is it?

If any one of us wanted to enter the Hi-Fi business world cables are probably the easiest way to do it.


No qualifications required, in fact no scientific knowledge at all.

Just a friendly relationship with an industrial cablea manufacturer and a penchant for coming up with suggestive images and advertising slogans.

@cd318

" Yes, what happened to the cable null test?
Or the cable measurement comparison?
Or the joined coat hanger comparison? "

Why is it you are incapable of running these tests or comparisons yourself? Why is it someone else's responsibility to help you?

" No qualifications required, in fact no scientific knowledge at all. "

So you're confident that the cables you purchased for your system have gone through a qualified person and/or have had scientific knowledge applied? I am sure we would all love to know what you've purchased for your speaker cables, power cables and interconnects. Share the wealth, enlighten us as to which company makes certified non-snake oil cables.

If what you say is true for one manufacturer that is labeled "Snake Oil" it has to be true for all manufacturers who make audio cables, whether they are premium or not. This is true because you are required to have cables connecting your equipment. I promise that qualified people with scientific knowledge created the equipment you use and specified the cables you need to use them. I am very certain that hardware manufacturers do not provide or list coat hangers or lamp wire as viable connections to their equipment.

I just had an involuntary shudder of horror as I realized the full import of the coat hanger comment- he's using wire coat hangers! https://youtu.be/VKcAYMb5uk4?t=8
Youtube bandwidth limits the audio to 56-165 kbps AAC or in an MP4 container regardless if your video is 1080p or 4K.

Unfortunately, Youtube isn't a reliable method for testing sound quality anyway.
Post removed 
A null test can be measurement or listening based, or both.

For example some null test the RIAA circuit in phono preamps….for accuracy to the standard, and then, some don’t.
Post removed 

Add to the list the Gaslight Googans!

The self appointed guardians of audio who tell you that you dont hear what you hear, that you cant enjoy what you enjoy, and tell that distortion numbers beyond audibility, is what separates the good from the bad. 
@peguinpower

I was thinking the other day that if these "self appointed guardians of audio" aren't able to hear a difference between cables, how are they suddenly capable of hearing the difference between speakers or amps or pre-amps or phonograph cartridges? Essentially, it is the same argument. If they all share a similar spec with an equal number of drivers or components, how can there be a discernible difference between sound quality?  I find it odd that they can claim to hear those differences and then magically lose that level of discernment when better cabling or power is connected. As if hardware is the only component allowed to have advancement in sound quality.

Oh yes, they'll rattle off this measurement and that bit of tech, which they all read from the manufacturer's literature or regurgitate what they heard/read from someone/somewhere else. Then suddenly, their position is justified where ours are not when using the exact same lingo. It's classic us vs them syndrome; even when there is common ground.




Sacrilege! Heretic! Beyond the pale! We need to keep the forum free for the usual parroting and blather. Please try and keep the cogent thought to yourself. Thank you.