Digital amps along with digital xovers are the future.....and you can have it NOW. I am not going to say that a $1400 Peachtree GaN1 amp will sound better than a $120K MSB Select, $145K Boulder Preamp and Bouder $250K mono blocks with $20K worth of cables in between (over half a million plus power cords and amp stands)......but it did beat the Holo May KTE with the Holo Serene Pre and Kinki B7 mono blocks with $1000 worth of interconnects ($13k). So what will it take to beat this $200 digital board from Elegant Audio Solutions powered from a $100 switching power supply? With a digital amp you do not need a DAC or a preamp or regular amp with feedback, tubes, or transistors. With digital amps you can bi or triamp your speaker drivers directly without the distortion of passive components. In fact, I would bet that if you bought two GaN 1 amps, bought the $600 digital xover from minisdp (with great linear supply and great coax cables) and biamped some drivers directly that it would sound better than most $50K systems. You could get 2 12 inch woofs and mount them on an open baffle and put a beryllium tweenter on top and set the xover to 1K or less (48db per octave). You hardwire your speaker cable to the woofers voice coil wires and use Music Purifiers and Ground Enhancers on each driver.....Bybee Clarifiers on the back of the woofer magnets.......speaker wires hardwired via plastic clamps into the amps (no binding posts or spades allowed here!). Of course, you can triamp.....and manufacturers will soon have powered digital speaker so all you will need is a source.
There will be other manufacturers designing and building digital amps that will (no doubt) be better than the EAS boards.....but they will come at a price. These, yet to be made digital amps will blow the industry wide open....as no more big heavy expensive boxes will ever need to be purchased......but what EAS has not is fantastic. When I do some mods to the Peachtree amp next month it should get a step or two better. Have fun!
I'm usually more on other forums because this forum seems to bring out aggressiveness or criticism despite the fact that this hobby is a very subjective one.
I am trying a Class D amp for the first time based upon some opinions of posters in another forum that I trust. Instead of sneering at it, I found that you can actually buy equipment on a trial basis in many places so there is little risk.
I'm liking what I'm hearing so far but there are caveats to my enthusiasm such as I am listening to speakers in a different place and set up. As we all know, if you really want to test something out, you want to control all of the variables. I can't right now because I'm having some work done and my top speakers are being protected from construction dust. However, I'm hearing detail from the speakers I'm using that I hadn't heard in their previous system. Whether that is room related or amp related is something I will try to figure out.
Anyhow, I just want to point out that there is no sense in pooh-poohing (or doo-dooing) something new without trying it. It may not work for everyone's ears or there may be no synergy with everyone's system but a poster who is excited about something new shouldn't hear boo birds just because some posters have engrained biases. Pointing out factual problems is fine. Booing an opinion, to me, crosses a line.
@jerryg123 No I haven't. I know snake oil when I see it.
More importantly, nor has anyone else auditioned any of this unless they have done it blind.
What would be good is snake oil salesmen setting up blind auditions of their oil, taking the auditions themselves and inviting us in as well.
The fact they don't do it evidences that they know this won't sell the product and that, in any case, there are enough believers around to keep them in business.
asvjerry, so if you fill the page with post after post of nonesense it will make the thread irrelevant?
Some people come here for reasons other than to discuss audio or music. I guess he’s one of them. I don’t understand it - it accomplishes nothing and just makes more work for the moderators.
That's the problem with this hobby. People are always trusting someone else's ears. Some stuff I've heard that was supposed to be "exalted" made me wonder if the previous people who had heard, had ears.
Glad to see some here aren’t fooled by more blatant, self serving advertisements. You would think by now the moderators would have put an end to this commercialization in a non-commercial forum. Sad. I would encourage people to report his self serving commercial appeals to the mods on a regular basis to flush this forum of people profiteering.
That's the problem with this hobby. People are always trusting someone else's ears. Some stuff I've heard that was supposed to be "exalted" made me wonder if the previous people who had heard, had ears.
Yes @kuribo, clear thinking is often pure logic and sometimes just common sense, a commodity lacking in today's world.
What is tiresome is hearing so many eulogising over the magical effect of some passive component or piece of snake oil on the basis of a totally unscientific test with accordingly meaningless results. What is a lot worse is people coming here to sell this stuff to the faithful.
What is tiresome is hearing so many eulogising over the magical effect of some passive component or piece of snake oil on the basis of a totally unscientific test with accordingly meaningless results. What is a lot worse is people coming here to sell this stuff to the faithful.
That about covers it. Willful ignorance is never pretty but sometimes people get what they deserve.
Some people come here to share their joy, others come here to make people and things wrong. The anti tweak objectivists (flat earthers) are just best left alone. They will never stop saying the same thing over and over. They want to fight and argue.....you can never "win" with these people as they will always want the last word.......If you ignore them.....they will just go away. They add nothing to the discussion as they have NEVER heard the things they complain about. Sad, but true.
What is sad that some people have no idea how magnificient they are.....and when you realize how amazing and deserving and beautiful you are.....you also realize that everyone is just the same.......we are all amazing......At that point you stop pointing your finger at people because you know it is all projection.......when you point a finger at someone.....three are pointing back at yourself.......YOU ONLY SEE YOURSELF IN OTHERS. More and more I see beauty and worthiness in everyone....including the anti tweakers.......heck someone has to take that stance......a noisy few waving their flag with all their passion.....how cute. Kisses and hugs for everyone......forever.
This is not a "normal Class D amp". It changes PCM to PWM in software and then drives a GaN based class D output stage. It is basically a DAC....a power DAC.
Isn't this what Technics did a couple of years ago? It's a proven design that works very well and sounds fantastic. So many ways to implement it.
@jerryg123I feel you're wasting your time with the naysayers. It's highly unlikely they will change their minds. Let it be. There are a lot of us who like to explore new things in this wonderful hobby. Let's enjoy!
@jerryg123 the likes of you will certainly be welcome in an intolerant forum. Dream on about imaginary improvements to your system. Some of us remain grounded in some kind of science.
I’m loving the sound from my Hifi Rose RA180 and NAD M33, both are excellent and rewarding to listen to. Class D has come a long way. But when I truly want bliss, I always come back to my Classe mono blocks. Clearer, better imaging, warmer, less harsh, easier to listen to for extended periods, I can go on and on. Class A up to 35 watts.
Not sure how an amp can be characterized as excellent and then another in comparision - "Clearer, better imaging, warmer, less harsh, easier to listen to for extended periods, I can go on and on. It would seem the former is less than excellent, maybe good
OK, of course there are transistors in the processor that does the PCM to PWM conversion along with the buffers afterwards and the GaN fets......but before that there are NO ANALOG stages with tubes or transistors......as in your DAC, Preamp and amp (all no longer needed)
No problem convincing me of this revolution with digital active crossovers, pure path digital amplifiers, switching power supplies, etc. , all of which actually happened a while ago. It all works for me. I prefer them by a long shot. But not everybody shares my preferences. They want to hear something a little different than I do. I hear problems with what they like. They hear problems with what I like. So the revolution comes and goes and they stick with their passive crossovers, tube amplifiers, etc. Whatever works for their ears is what they are going to and should continue to use.
I would love to know what xover, digital amps, power supplies and speaker drivers you use......this is very rare. I had a friend a long time ago that used the Panasonic receivers that had digital amps in them in a multi-amp system.......yes, correct....not new....but NOT very known. I know of no commercial speaker system in the world that is multi-amped with digital amps......you are just one of a handful of people around the world. After I spread the news to the whole planet.....he he....there will be many who will try this and laugh and cry with glee with the results.....and for very little (relatively) money put out.
People....wake up. This is not a normal class D amp like the Orchard, or Purifi, or Ncore, or Ice or AGD or Atmasphere or Merrill or Pascal, etc. This is a digital input class D amp (like the Technics and Lyngdorf)......this kind of amp changes the PCM signal directly to PWM (class d type of output stage). This type of amp eliminates your normal DAC and preamp......it is a DAC....it is a power DAC.....you cannot directly compare the two. One is driven by a DAC and has analog stages....the digital amp is driven by a digital source and has NO Normal ANALOG stages of gain......way more simple.......less is more.
@ricevsFor me, the review I posted above said it all. Yes he was impressed with the sound given the price point of the amp. But the final word was it doesn’t produce the sound of amps costing 5 or 10 times as much. If $3000 is your budget for an amp, then the Class D is a viable option. But....... it's not the be all and end all to amplificatioin. Glad you are so happy with your equipment. Now time to let other be happy with theirs? Cheers.
" It changes PCM to PWM in software and then drives a GaN based class D output stage." So, only PCM? Can't just take in the more analog sounding (your mileage may vary) DSD and be done with it?
And if it can drive a GaN based class D output stage, why can't it just as well drive a class A or class AB output stage? Curious.
I have the Peachtree GaN 400...400 watt GaNfet amp. For $2500 there is no amp near it...a/b or Gan that is as smooth and musical. More so than my famed 845 tube amp. Must be paired with tube preamp ( Audio-gd). My LSR+ Maggies sing like a 5K-10K speaker. Sorry class A/ B fans. This is the way to get more of a Musical...pure sound and not at all etched. A/B is more etched and bright than a good quality GanFet. The AGD at 10 K is the best GAN amp but the GaN 400 isn’t far behind for 1/4 the cost. Try to find one used. Impossible.
bigtwin, You don't understand. How many times do I have to state this: This is not a normal Class D amp like the Orchard in the review you posted. The reviewer has never heard this "digital" amp so he has no reference to this amp nor do you.
Peachtree 400.....AGD.....these are all normal class D that require a Dac in front of it and analog stages in the class D amp.......THIS IS DIFFERENT. This thread is not about normal class D........but this a DIGITAL AMP!!!!!
@ricevsAnother digital Class D amp (power DAC) is the Exogal Comet/Ion from the folks who developed one of the first power DACs, ex-Wadia engineers. The Comet/Ion is very transparent, dead neutral, and dynamically expressive. Active speakers have many advantages including no passive xover components and amps chosen to match the needs of their drivers, plus they can also add digital room equalization, listen to speakers from Eikon, Dutch & Dutch, and the KEF LS60s. Digital Class D has the potential to push active speaker systems closer to the goal while keeping costs in check, simplifying circuitry, and easily integrating streaming, active xovers and EQ, I hope many manufacturers take note and develop speaker systems incorporating these ideas.
Yes, I know about the Exogal......very esoteric, and you have to use it with its own pre/DAC and the cost is high and the power is not great......and you cannot do room correction, bi amp, eq and do whatever. You have to realize that the inexpensive EAS boards are 4 channel boards.....for instance the 400 watt stereo boards are 4 100 watt single ended channels. So, if you wanted to use one board for mono tri-amping....then no problem. Two channels get bridged for 400 watts for your woofs and 100 watts for your mid and highs.....built in to the board is a fully progammable processor (software comes from the manufacturer to set it up any way you want.....xover, eq....whatever....all on the same board). You could mount one board inside a 3 way speaker and program it to do everything and just drive the board digitally......this is way cool. Of course there are already boards made like that that people use but they are using conventional DAC chips and op amps on the output of their digtital processor and then using conventional class D or A/B afterwords. This will be simpler and sonically purer and can be done very fast.
Imagine the fully digital integrated amp with at least 4 inputs, LEEDH lossless volume control, full dsp and 8 channels of amplifier output. You could mount some drivers on an open baffle and just run wires to the drivers and do all the xover points and eq and time aligning yourself in an hour......sit back and have the best sound you have even heard......this is coming. ONE FRICKIN box and drivers on a board.......you will play with different drivers instead of saving up for the next 100lb class A amp that costs $100K (that won't give you anything you don't already have)......this is the future......of course, powered speakers will be cool....but who wants to listen to the same drivers all the time.......got to have something to do. We will all be on forums talking about the latest drivers we have listened to.....amps and preamps and DACs will be dead......for the old fogys.
I never got a pure digital chain working with power dacs all the way down. I couldn't figure out how to do it affordably. So I've always converted to analog after the digital crossovers and equalization and then went with regular class D amps or whatever solid state amp I had around. For a while I had the Panasonic receivers with PurePath power dacs and used them with a Behringer DEQ2496 but didn't do any crossovers, so it was just used with passive speakers. The Panasonics used Texas Instrument chips which I believe had no feedback. From what I can tell there is not a lot to be gained from the power dac concept but I continue to watch with interest. I love the idea, but a D/A converter before the amp can do an awfully good job of providing a clean analog signal, and a decent class D amp with switching power supply can do a bang up job of amplifying that signal cleanly. So there's not much going wrong there that needs remedy, and dacs may be easier to make work better at the line level than at the speaker power level. What I heard with the Panasonic was a very light and airy sound, which I came to realize later was the bass falling off due to lack of feedback. When I hooked up a JVC hybrid digital feedback amp to the same speakers it sounded a lot thicker and fuller with a LOT more bass. I've read they now have power dacs with feedback but I've yet to hear one. I suspect that if they can get the power response to match a standard analog input digital amp being fed with a decent dac it's going to sound very similar.
But the final word was it doesn’t produce the sound of amps costing 5 or 10 times as much.
What is the sound of amps costing 5 or 10 times as much? Is it an accurate amplification of the input signal, more accurate or more capable of working into lower impedances and maintaining voltage at high current with ultra low distortion and noise than a mere $3000 amp? No, that doesn’t seem to be the case. If anything they add distortion - expensive distortion. And they usually look pretty cool, have some guru’s name behind and some lore about the wizardry and genius applied to the expensive amp. Dr. Earl Geddes said that when he worked on car audio systems they discovered that people actually liked their sound systems to distort when they turned them up. Without that distortion people didn’t feel like they could really get the system to play loud even if the playback was reaching dangerously loud levels! Some people like distortion, and will pay more for it, and because they have a positive response to it they call it "transparent" or "revealing" or some other positive word that describes their personal impression of the distortion. Something about the distortion allows them to suspend their disbelief better and perceive a more realistic sound. It doesn’t work for everybody. The rest of us just shrug our shoulders ’cause it doesn’t sound magically realistic or even particularly good to us, although often it’s still just fine. We’ve heard real instruments and these mega expensive systems continue to exhibit the same audible faults as much less expensive systems. I’ll be honest in saying that I’m disappointed that there’s generally no way forward with even with huge amounts of money to get past certain issues with audio playback electronics, but my ears have demonstrated to me that truth over and over again. To the people who are enraptured with the effects of pre-amps, patch cords and power cables they get the impression that the rest of us are all half deaf. We hear just fine. We just focus more on the major problems that are audibly obvious and not being addressed at all by these devices. It’s not just a simple case of diminishing returns. They’re actually not doing anything at all to address what I want addressed. But that’s ok, because I can come up with my own solutions that get me a little closer. It’s a tough nut to crack and it gives me something to work on.
@asctimDon't shoot the messenger. I just thought it was a thoughtful review. According to the OP, the amp in the review is not even the tech he's on about. Guess it's all above my paygrade. As it happens, I've made my bed with my end game system and I'm not about to toss it all and start over at this point. Frankly, when the music sounds as good as it does on my old outdated tech, I just don't think I could appriciate any improvment. Miles Davis is already standing in my room playing just for me. What could this new tech do. Have him standing a little closer to me? 🤣
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