The most dynamic & transparent bookshelf

Amphion Helium2.

"Any other recommendations? Once again, I'm not looking for speakers with colorations, must extremely dynamic, dead neatral and transparent without snake oil!"

There's really no way to define those qualities. They'll mean different things to different people. It would help if you can give some examples of systems you've heard that highlight the qualities you are looking for. Also, and more importantly, if you can't list any systems for references, you may want to do so before buying anything. The reason for this is to be sure that you want is actually achievable. Otherwise, you can loose a lot of money.

Totem Acoustic Model ONE signatures!(totem has been producing this speaker for over 20 years) You want impact and bass and dynamics in a book self design? You will not be disappointed. Give them a look because they use a driver made by Dynaudio with a 3" voice coil, space age damping material and a wonderful smooth extended tweeter.

Zmanastronomy: Thanks, I'm afraid Argon 3 is out of my budget :(

Zd542: Yes, it's hard but I think Proac Response D2 suit me well, dead neutral and amazing bass range, for your info, I'm driving my speakers using no hype technology products like JDS Labs ODAC, Blue Jeans cables, and Class D Audio power amplifier, no preamp/ CD player / phono etc...

Mattmiller: Yes, I heard of Totem, they are good, but this Model 1, just too big and ugly to me? Also the price more than 2K, I try to get a pairs bookshelf within 2K? Possible?

I believe I mentioned the Helium2. I paid $400 for a mint pair.

Zmanastronomy: Yes, but that's old model? I believe not easy to get a pair of those, also the frequency range raise concern to me, for that price it seem Sierra-1 spec & craftsmanship most probably will win my heart :P

My next aim for powerful speakers, will be something near perfect immune to distortions, must be extreme dynamic, go very loud and does not make the sound quality collapsed, also I insist to stick with bookshelf size

the Green Mountain Audio Rio & Eos & Eos HD speakers fit this description exactly. plus, they are minimum phase distortion speakers & they are time-coherent which is why they fit your description exactly.
I believe the Rio is available factory-direct as well (I could be mistaken here??).

Here's their webpage:
http://greenmountainaudio.com/rio/

Bombaywalla: Thanks. Wow, it seems the names appear quite frequent in the forum, though I'm hesitate to buy, they looks so small, as low as 50hz, maybe not low enough? Also price seem not so friendly, must be worth because of the unique material and technology, but I have to say I don't like the outlook, so ugly? At least should make it more standard look? Any other recommendations?

I've owned quite a few motorcycle monitor speakers and my favorites are the ReveL M20. Yes they are an older speaker but they are extremely neutral with dynamics to spare. I haven't heard the newer ReveL monitors, only read about them.

Wim1983, sorry you don't like the looks of the speaker. The looks are derived from a "form follows function" design perspective.
I thought you were looking for performance? Your decision seems to be swayed now by looks???
If I were looking for the performance parameters that you stated in your original post, the Rio or the Eos/Eos HD would be the speaker I would be buying. I've heard most of the Green Mountain Audio speakers in his factory or at RMAF - they sound amazing always even under show conditions.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/marigo-whirls-green-mountain

If you are change your mind & are inclined towards this brand, email the manuf - he might be able to help you price-wise.
Personally, I'd be spending my time trying to find a time-coherent speaker & would not be wasting my time on anything else but that's me. Your goals, I thought, were the same but it appears maybe not...

One more suggestion - Odyssey Audio Epiphony II stand-mount.
Klaus always has a very good sounding room at the RMAF but each time he uses his floor-standing speakers. I'm assuming his stand-mount Epiphony has very similar performance (& it's not a phony! ;-) )
I've heard his floor-standers but not the Epiphony.
http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-epiphonyII.html

There are plenty of other non time-coherent brands out there - you can buy & sell, buy & sell until you find what you are looking for. Good luck! Let us know how you fare....

Timrhu: Thanks, I'm sure that a little but giant amazing speakers, except the deep bass, it seems 99% bookshelf monitor size speakers still struggle on this low frequency range sound, while a pairs of Joseph Audio Pulsar may take too many years of saving to buy :(

I guess I'm just started finding a good pair of bookshelf speakers, closest I can get will be Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1

When in doubt...Google is your friend.

My Google search on the question indicated that horn based models from JBL and Klipsch are the most dynamic and transparent.

For transparent alone, there are a few similar speakers with plexiglass cabinets that are hard to argue with.

Bombaywalla: Thanks again for your detailed explanation. Due to budget constraint and outlook preference, I'll have to opt out the Green Mountain Audio, while it seems the epiphony II is no more available...I'll continue my search...

Mapman: Ya perhaps I have heard too many times the name JBL and Klipsch, the praises & critics are pretty mixed up, so I'm not sure, also they have too many models that is not easy to narrow down to a "real" bookshelf I'm looking at, especially near full range series. By the way, what do you suggest that I can have a look?

I think you are in good shape with that amp except with teh most inefficient speakers going VERY loud, ie possibly ear damaging.

If there is a model that would fit into your space, if it were me, I'd go with my old standby, OHM Acoustics. Most I am familiar with are floorstanders but they have adapted teh design into some bookshelf models of late that I am less familiar with. You'd have to contact them via ohmspeakers.com.

I can say that all their Walsh models are designed to sound similar and that sound that I know well matches what you are looking for well. I power my smaller OHMS with similar power amps to yours with excellent results.

They are about as neutral and uncolored as they come IMHO.

I like and own Dynaudio as well. Mine are Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkII. These could be harder to drive and actual sound probably varies more from model to model though all share similar traits and the line is top notch in general.

I also very much like Goldenear Aeon3 as a smaller "bookshelf" speaker. These are very balanced and neutral top to bottom with absolutely no edge on teh top end. If tehy have a limitation is is probably dynamics at higher volumes, in that they are not very big, but very good for teh price.

"Zd542: Yes, it's hard but I think Proac Response D2 suit me well, dead neutral and amazing bass range, for your info, I'm driving my speakers using no hype technology products like JDS Labs ODAC, Blue Jeans cables, and Class D Audio power amplifier, no preamp/ CD player / phono etc..."

I didn't realize you actually heard the ProAc's. So many people just go by reviews and opinions, I sometimes forget there's still a few of us that demo gear before we buy it. Its really hard to mess up with a pair of ProAc's. One of my favorite speakers. For SS amps, Ayre, Pass and Rowland was the best match. For tubes, Quicksilver, ARC and VAC.

Mapman: Yes, Goldenear Ao3, Ohm Walsh Bookshelf, they are in my shortlist as well, I'm very tempted to go for the OHM. Can give more impressions how they sound? I see that the frequency response is very impressive, 32-20K range, WOW, that's seem a lot power and dynamic. Can you confirm the OHM can be drive with very high dynamic? How diffcult are they to position and sensitive to placement? Did you try some extreme stress test on volume and distortions?

Zd542: Argh, I have to say that audition is not available here in Malaysia for many state of the art speakers, as there are too many in USA, with good return policy. Also, it can be very fishy and tricky when you do audition, with today Internet still there are more than a lot of info there for me to evaluate and judge, though questionable in most aspects, but that's the only way to search for a reference level bookshelf speakers. So I have to be very careful in all considerations. Proac Response D2 is available in Malaysia, but the price is very high indeed, way over my budget, while the design can be a bit traditional, so better value invenstment, I'll opt for more moderm design speakers if possible. Any other recommendations?

JBL LSR708i

what's your budget?

Mateored: Around 2K would be very reasonable price for me, though still not easy for me to save :(

ATC-SCM11 or SCM19. The v2 models have been out for a while with vast(claimed)improvements with the new in house tweeter. IMO the new models(have not demoed) are worth the extra money since ATC rarely updates. Don't worry about "snake oil" ATC speakers play what is on the recording! I second the the used Revel monitors M20/22 mentioned earlier if you want to keep expenses around $1k.

What you are asking for is the textbook definition of active monitors.

Dayglow: I have a check on the spec, it seems it does go low enough? 56hz -6db, hmm...

"Zd542: Yes, it's hard but I think Proac Response D2 suit me well, dead neutral and amazing bass range, for your info, I'm driving my speakers using no hype technology products like JDS Labs ODAC, Blue Jeans cables, and Class D Audio power amplifier, no preamp/ CD player / phono etc..."

When I read through that post, the level of detail you give would suggest that you've actually done some thorough listening to the speakers. If that's not the case, you may want to rethink your strategy. It's not possible to come up with that kind of detail from specs. Even if you use reviews, more things can go wrong than right.

Have you heard anything that you would be willing to buy? Even if its out of your price range, it can still be used as a reference.

It's not possible to come up with that kind of detail from specs.

Agree, however, since very loud and dynamic at loud volume are very important, you should be concerned with speaker sensitivity. If the Wharfedale Denton at 86db was not adequate, then it will be best to look at speakers with a higher sensitivity, most likely in the range of 90db and above.

Sensitivity specs are useful but can be deceptive. Sometimes they do not
apply to the lower frequencies if present or sometimes they are good
because low end extension is limited so take them with a few grains of salt.
Many smaller monitors do not do the lowest octaves much and are much
easier to drive to high volume. It's the lowest frequencies that require the
most power out of the speakers to deliver with flat response. Power
demands increase exponentially with lower frequency as else held
constant. You need more power or larger speakers or both to do it.
Smaller speakers in larger rooms will tend to distort more if asked to play
loud and deep. Small rooms are much easier and the world is more your
oyster there. Also the good news is not much happens with the lowest and
highest octaves with most music so those on a budget can practically cut
some corners there when needed unless you are into organ music or gotta
hear the lowest frequencies that might be synthesized on occasion.

Although you are asking for books, I really love the new micro towers by Kvart and Bolge. Best kept secret.

Also like the ATC 7s and 11s, and Evolution Acoustics.

"05-09-15: Tls49

It's not possible to come up with that kind of detail from specs.

Agree, however, since very loud and dynamic at loud volume are very important, you should be concerned with speaker sensitivity. If the Wharfedale Denton at 86db was not adequate, then it will be best to look at speakers with a higher sensitivity, most likely in the range of 90db and above."

For the most part, I agree. But you still have to like the speakers.

Sorry Mapman, your comments are confusing to me. The sensitivity spec can be deceptive, however, nothing to do with frequency since it is measured using a 1K Hz test tone at a distance of 1M. The deceptive part can be due to impedance of the speaker, and whether it is stated as 1W or 2.83V. If stated as 1W, impedance is irrelevant for comparing, however if stated as 2.83V and speaker is 4 ohm, that is 2W, and the 1W spec will be 3db lower.

Many smaller monitors do not do the lowest octaves much and are much easier to drive to high volume.

I only see this being possible if the speakers are being driven through a high pass filer, otherwise the small woofers will be overdriven into severe distortion.

Every 3db lower in speaker sensitivity will require double amplifier power for the same volume capability. So if you have 50w on a 92db speaker, then the following would be the required power for lower sensitivity speakers to have that same volume capability,

89db -- 100w
86db -- 200w
83db -- 400w

Again, since loud volume and dynamics at that loud volume are important, it just makes good sense to look at higher sensitivity speakers.

For the most part, I agree. But you still have to like the speakers.

Zd542, no doubt that is true, but the speaker must provide the total package. I once owned a pair of speakers, and loved everything about them except that due to their low sensitivity they were not capable of the desired volume with certain music, even using a little more than maximum power for the speaker.

"I once owned a pair of speakers, and loved everything about them except that due to their low sensitivity they were not capable of the desired volume with certain music, even using a little more than maximum power for the speaker."

Power amp specs can't be trusted. For example, I have a basic 2 channel Sony receiver rated at 150 watts/ch I use on my computer speakers. The Sony is only a few hundred dollars, but compare it to my Ayre V5 that's also rated for 150 watts/ch, and the first thing you'll notice when you listen to them is that the V5 is vastly more powerful than the Sony. It also sounds vastly different.

As far as your comment about the speaker being the total package, I'm not sure how you would define that, but I know what you're saying. If you'll notice, up to this point I haven't made a speaker recommendation. The reason is that I can't think of any small speakers that will do what the OP is asking. I can think of plenty floor standers that he may like, but not monitors. That's why I asked the OP is he could provide some type of reference. There's just not enough info to go on here.

Tls49: Yes, I not only like Denton, but I have to say I love everything from sound to outlook of it, my whole music collection is listenable and enjoyable, as compare to Diamond 122 it does not earn "love" instead only like. So I think 86db sensitivity 6ohm could be not enough volume if I wanna do a party sound testing, but then speakers are design for different purposes, yes Denton is not suit for wild party aggressive kinda, but it actually pretty dynamic for me though, just on the absolute extreme benchmarking, it still lack ultimate punch, like some speakers that people mention about: Joseph Audio Pulsar or even the Grand Teton Gen2?

Speaking of power amp, yes I can assure that the Class D Audio power amp is indeed outstanding, I've got a NAD 3020i, the sound came out from Diamond 122, is bass overbloat, a little warm and less shine on treble, most importantly the sonic does not shine, I can spot this in classic track like Tutti! - Igor Stravinsky - The Firebird - Finale. So the things achieved on the Class D Audio poweramp is neutral, transparent and dynamic tonal balance. Also I notice at higher volume Class D Audio power amp able to control the woofer cone, absolutely fantastic! For small to medium, NAD 3020i still not bad, but not to the extent to cover all music styles and dynamic. So my current audio chain is pretty there, EXCEPT I need a more powerful mini monitor to complete my journey, sound not realistic huh?

Power amp specs can't be trusted. For example,

OK Zd542, you're preaching to the choir. I worked in the A/V industry for over 20 years, mostly with high end audio, and have always used quality amps like Threshold, Pass, etc. I am fully aware of what you are saying, and in no way whatsoever was there an issue of inadequate power in what I said in the previous post. As I stated, the problem was that the speakers sensitivity was just too low.

You should also notice that I have not made a speaker recommendation as well. I have only been trying to get the OP to understand that if a certain speaker of 86db sensitivity does not play loud enough and is lacking in dynamics playing loud, then a different speaker with that same sensitivity will not do it either, and lower sensitivity even worse. Sure, there may be an exception to this, but IMHO, I seriously doubt it.

The reason is that I can't think of any small speakers that will do what the OP is asking.

Again IMHO, the Coincident Triumph Extreme (94db) or the Reference 3A MM de Capo (92db) will likely satisfy his desire, although he will need to increase the budget or buy used.

As far as the recommendations listed here, and again, IMHO, the Goldenear AON 3 (90db) may have a good chance to work for him. I have not heard them, but have a friend that has a pair. This guy worked with me for a few years, and still works in the A/V industry. His company acquired the Goldenear line after hearing them at a show, and he chose the AON 3 for himself saying they sound very dynamic and much larger than one would think for their size.

Tls49: Thanks again for the recommendations, I had seen those 3 you have recommended, indeed look attractive to me, though price several folds high, except the Goldenear AON 3.

"OK Zd542, you're preaching to the choir."

You're right in that I figured you already knew this. I made the comment because I thought some of the other posters may not be aware. I should have put some type of disclaimer in.

The only point of yours that I would mention is that instead of getting more efficient speakers, you can get a more powerful amp. Yes, I know the OP already has one, but given his demands, he may have to modify his approach. Look at this once more.

"My next aim for powerful speakers, will be something near perfect immune to distortions, must be extreme dynamic, go very loud and does not make the sound quality collapsed, also I insist to stick with bookshelf size, few options in my mind:

Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 (with NrT upgrade, worth?)
Mark&Daniel Ruby
Dynaudio DM 2/8
Proac Response D2
Soundfield Audio Monitor 1

For Dynaudio and Mark&Daniel, I have concern on power and drive efficiency, though I'm using a Class D Audio SDS-400C power amp, it work damn good with my Denton (warm + transparent gear goes really well). My considerations based on factors in this order: price, near full range dynamic, neutral and transparent sonic quality, availability (as I'm from Malaysia, not easy to achieve those speakers), and last your opinions? Any other recommendations? Once again, I'm not looking for speakers with colorations, must extremely dynamic, dead neatral and transparent without snake oil!"

If the OP wants those results, he must do some listening. There's no way around it. That's quite a list. I'll mention the reference again. Without more input and work on the OP's part, I'm not convinced that what he's asking for is even achievable. And even if it is, the price of it all may be more a lot more than he's planning on.

Zd542: Thanks for your reminder. Yay, I'm thinking is that possible too, also I'm starting to save cash now, so it just matter of time, eventually I can get a pair that satisfied me, so I need very careful thinking, consideration, and other measurement whenever possible. A pair of TAD reference 1 definitely is neverland for me but at the same time is dreamland for me, not that it's not the best, it just that I'm not capable of :(

Check out the KEF R300. You will not be disappointed. Good luck

The only point of yours that I would mention is that instead of getting more efficient speakers, you can get a more powerful amp. Yes, I know the OP already has one, but given his demands, he may have to modify his approach. Look at this once more.

If a pair of speakers are significantly underpowered, that can be an option, however it doesn't apply here. The OP's speakers are rated to 100w, and he is using a 140w amp. For a 3db increase he would need a 280w amp. Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker? Sure he could get a 150w Ayre V5 like yours, and things may improve in dynamics, but not volume, and it's not in his budget.

Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart. So the only solution to his problem is a higher sensitivity speaker. The challenge will be to find one he likes that is in his budget, and can only be determined by listening.

"The OP's speakers are rated to 100w, and he is using a 140w amp. For a 3db increase he would need a 280w amp. Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker?"

I must have missed what speakers the OP has because I thought this thread was to find a new pair. That said, you're not going win me over with specs like this. Given what was said in the earlier posts, it looks like we are in agreement that amp specs are very unreliable. Given that, if his speakers are rated at 100 watts, that still leaves me with the same question; who's watts are we talking about? Then to go on about needing 10x the power to get an additional 3db in volume. Of course, we all know that, and it sounds like a reasonable argument, but its not that relevant in this case.

"Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker? Sure he could get a 150w Ayre V5 like yours, and things may improve in dynamics, but not volume, and it's not in his budget."

Again, I'm not sure exactly what speaker we are talking about, but my answer is going to be almost certainly, yes. An Ayre like I have would probably be worth the extra money. Not to get too side tracked, but in my main system, I actually have 2 Ayre V-5's vertical biamping a pair of Vandersteen 2's. That's over 10k in amplification for a pair of 2k speakers. I'm a very big believer in the concept of putting my money where my mouth is. (And if you haven't noticed I have a pretty big mouth and it needs all the help git can get.) All I'm getting at here, is that I'm not telling someone to do something that I wouldn't do myself.

Back to comparing the Sony to the Ayre. My claim is that volume isn't the relevant factor here. Because at 10x power for 3db in volume, we're talking about total volume. Both amps can produce x db of noise. For a meaningful comparison, the volume of specific frequencies must be considered. Using a run of the mill, full range floor standing speaker, aprox 88-90db that doesn't drop too far down to make it a very difficult load, as an example. As the frequencies get lower, my Sony receiver will not be able to produce those frequencies at a consistently level volume. It will continue to struggle until at some point, it isn't even able to produce the frequencies at all. The Ayre, on the other hand, will have no problem driving the speaker at all frequencies. That's the real difference in power that you won't see by looking at the specs. Also remember that I'm not even touching on the subjective qualities, that at least for me, will justify the Ayre's price.

"Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart. So the only solution to his problem is a higher sensitivity speaker. The challenge will be to find one he likes that is in his budget, and can only be determined by listening."

This is just speculation because there's many other factors involve here besides what's in your quote. (Although I do agree with your last sentence.) What I can tell you for sure, is that the OP is going to have a moment of truth. He's going to hook up some equipment, listen to it and then make a decision as to whether he likes it or not. The only real question is going to be if he does this before, or after he spends a lot of money.

Yes Zd, you missed the OP's speakers, and it appears you're missing even more. I never said you need 10x power for a 3db increase in volume. To achieve a 3db increase in volume, you either double amp power or increase speaker sensitivity by 3db. This is a basic fact.

Now I do agree with you about the difference in amps being able to deliver power into a full bandwidth of frequencies with a varying impedance load of a speaker. Sure that Sony receiver will not deliver the power to a large full range inefficient speaker, but that is not the case here. The OP's amp (140w@8ohms, 280W@4ohms, stable to 2ohms) is definitely capable to fully drive his small 2-way monitor. Going off on tangents about extreme scenarios just confuses the discussion.

This is just speculation because there's many other factors involve here besides what's in your quote.

Yes, I have assumed his power amp is being driven by an adequate signal, but please tell me what factors, and be specific to his setup, not some extreme scenario.

Sorry, not speculation, he can't add more power to the speaker, so the only way to achieve more volume is use a different speaker with a higher sensitivity.

"I never said you need 10x power for a 3db increase in volume. To achieve a 3db increase in volume, you either double amp power or increase speaker sensitivity by 3db."

You're right. The statement was a typo on my part.

"Yes, I have assumed his power amp is being driven by an adequate signal, but please tell me what factors, and be specific to his setup, not some extreme scenario.

My comment was in reference to this quote.

"Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart."

Something like that can only be true if all other factors are equal. Things like impedance curve, type of xover used, driver size, ported or non ported bass, room placement, etc will all work the amp differently even though the sensitivity specs are the same. A good example of what I'm talking about is Wilson speakers. Even though they have fairly high sensitivity ratings, they're usually paired with big SS amps to control the bass. You can find many other speakers with the same xdb rating that are an easier load on the amp. And its those differences that will have an effect on volume without altering sensitivity.

Something like that can only be true if all other factors are equal. Things like impedance curve, type of xover used, driver size, ported or non ported bass, room placement, etc will all work the amp differently even though the sensitivity specs are the same.

Zd, there is no need to split hairs. I don't disagree that these can cause minor differences, but since the power/sensitivity is a logarithmic relationship, they will not be significant to the basic calculations. Yes, room placement can increase certain frequencies, but that is a tonal balance issue, not an overall volume issue.

A good example of what I'm talking about is Wilson speakers. Even though they have fairly high sensitivity ratings, they're usually paired with big SS amps to control the bass. You can find many other speakers with the same xdb rating that are an easier load on the amp. And its those differences that will have an effect on volume without altering sensitivity.

Sure there can be perceived differences when using different speakers on the same amp, but that doesn't change the basic science that I have previously stated. Here is an article that confirms my statement that you seem to doubt, and I hope it helps you to understand,

Let’s talk about dBs, loudness, and sensitivity

Also, here is one of many online calculators that you can plug in the numbers and see that my calculations are correct, within a very slight margin of error.

AllegroSound

So again, the only choice the OP has to get an increase in volume is to use a speaker with higher sensitivity since he can't add more power to the current speaker. If you have another solution, I would really like to hear it.

Nyame: Yes, I have heard a lot of good things about KEF R300, very tempted to get a pair coz it fit in price, availability, outlook, and technology. Mind to share how fabulous it sound?

AllegroSound: Actually I can buy higher power model, which will double the powers, but do you think the Denton will work under so much power, can enlighten me? Also is Denton need so much power like 300 watts?

Unlike most stand mounted loudspeakers, which uses two drivers,the R300 is a full 3 way design. The benefits are superior midrange transparency and dynamics. Moreover the tweeter is located in the acoustic centre of the midrange driver for better phase response and coherence. The end result is an a loudspeaker with excellent transparency and precise imaging. It sounds really good.

Actually I can buy higher power model, which will double the powers, but do you think the Denton will work under so much power, can enlighten me? Also is Denton need so much power like 300 watts?

NO, you cannot use a higher power amp with the Denton speaker.

hmm, I think so, the Denton definitely has limitation, I guess I can only play it at sweet volume, though the bass is nothing but impressive by it's own. Hmm, so I need to look for higher sensitivity speakers, with amazing soundstage, imaging, details, and accuracy. It seems I got few to be added into the short list include:

Grand Teton Gen2 (this should be my only choice, in most aspects)
Legacy Audio Studio HD (anybody can comment on this?)
Wharfedale Jade 3 (those can get it at good price, but too big for me, also need special stand for this)
GoldenEar Aon 3 (price pretty close and still affordable)
KEF R300 (actually not cheap in my country)
Sonist Concerto 2 (wow, this got 95db sensitivity, pretty high)
Clearwave Resolution 6 (used pair, still not cheap)

and few others which I'm not affordable:
Speaker Art Super Clef (owner is low profile, hmm...)
Reference 3A MM de Capo BE Monitor (high price product)
Joseph Audio Pulsar (neverland OR dreamland only)

Thanks guys!