The most dynamic & transparent bookshelf

It's not possible to come up with that kind of detail from specs.

Agree, however, since very loud and dynamic at loud volume are very important, you should be concerned with speaker sensitivity. If the Wharfedale Denton at 86db was not adequate, then it will be best to look at speakers with a higher sensitivity, most likely in the range of 90db and above.

Sorry Mapman, your comments are confusing to me. The sensitivity spec can be deceptive, however, nothing to do with frequency since it is measured using a 1K Hz test tone at a distance of 1M. The deceptive part can be due to impedance of the speaker, and whether it is stated as 1W or 2.83V. If stated as 1W, impedance is irrelevant for comparing, however if stated as 2.83V and speaker is 4 ohm, that is 2W, and the 1W spec will be 3db lower.

Many smaller monitors do not do the lowest octaves much and are much easier to drive to high volume.

I only see this being possible if the speakers are being driven through a high pass filer, otherwise the small woofers will be overdriven into severe distortion.

Every 3db lower in speaker sensitivity will require double amplifier power for the same volume capability. So if you have 50w on a 92db speaker, then the following would be the required power for lower sensitivity speakers to have that same volume capability,

89db -- 100w
86db -- 200w
83db -- 400w

Again, since loud volume and dynamics at that loud volume are important, it just makes good sense to look at higher sensitivity speakers.

For the most part, I agree. But you still have to like the speakers.

Zd542, no doubt that is true, but the speaker must provide the total package. I once owned a pair of speakers, and loved everything about them except that due to their low sensitivity they were not capable of the desired volume with certain music, even using a little more than maximum power for the speaker.

Power amp specs can't be trusted. For example,

OK Zd542, you're preaching to the choir. I worked in the A/V industry for over 20 years, mostly with high end audio, and have always used quality amps like Threshold, Pass, etc. I am fully aware of what you are saying, and in no way whatsoever was there an issue of inadequate power in what I said in the previous post. As I stated, the problem was that the speakers sensitivity was just too low.

You should also notice that I have not made a speaker recommendation as well. I have only been trying to get the OP to understand that if a certain speaker of 86db sensitivity does not play loud enough and is lacking in dynamics playing loud, then a different speaker with that same sensitivity will not do it either, and lower sensitivity even worse. Sure, there may be an exception to this, but IMHO, I seriously doubt it.

The reason is that I can't think of any small speakers that will do what the OP is asking.

Again IMHO, the Coincident Triumph Extreme (94db) or the Reference 3A MM de Capo (92db) will likely satisfy his desire, although he will need to increase the budget or buy used.

As far as the recommendations listed here, and again, IMHO, the Goldenear AON 3 (90db) may have a good chance to work for him. I have not heard them, but have a friend that has a pair. This guy worked with me for a few years, and still works in the A/V industry. His company acquired the Goldenear line after hearing them at a show, and he chose the AON 3 for himself saying they sound very dynamic and much larger than one would think for their size.

The only point of yours that I would mention is that instead of getting more efficient speakers, you can get a more powerful amp. Yes, I know the OP already has one, but given his demands, he may have to modify his approach. Look at this once more.

If a pair of speakers are significantly underpowered, that can be an option, however it doesn't apply here. The OP's speakers are rated to 100w, and he is using a 140w amp. For a 3db increase he would need a 280w amp. Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker? Sure he could get a 150w Ayre V5 like yours, and things may improve in dynamics, but not volume, and it's not in his budget.

Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart. So the only solution to his problem is a higher sensitivity speaker. The challenge will be to find one he likes that is in his budget, and can only be determined by listening.

Yes Zd, you missed the OP's speakers, and it appears you're missing even more. I never said you need 10x power for a 3db increase in volume. To achieve a 3db increase in volume, you either double amp power or increase speaker sensitivity by 3db. This is a basic fact.

Now I do agree with you about the difference in amps being able to deliver power into a full bandwidth of frequencies with a varying impedance load of a speaker. Sure that Sony receiver will not deliver the power to a large full range inefficient speaker, but that is not the case here. The OP's amp (140w@8ohms, 280W@4ohms, stable to 2ohms) is definitely capable to fully drive his small 2-way monitor. Going off on tangents about extreme scenarios just confuses the discussion.

This is just speculation because there's many other factors involve here besides what's in your quote.

Yes, I have assumed his power amp is being driven by an adequate signal, but please tell me what factors, and be specific to his setup, not some extreme scenario.

Sorry, not speculation, he can't add more power to the speaker, so the only way to achieve more volume is use a different speaker with a higher sensitivity.

Something like that can only be true if all other factors are equal. Things like impedance curve, type of xover used, driver size, ported or non ported bass, room placement, etc will all work the amp differently even though the sensitivity specs are the same.

Zd, there is no need to split hairs. I don't disagree that these can cause minor differences, but since the power/sensitivity is a logarithmic relationship, they will not be significant to the basic calculations. Yes, room placement can increase certain frequencies, but that is a tonal balance issue, not an overall volume issue.

A good example of what I'm talking about is Wilson speakers. Even though they have fairly high sensitivity ratings, they're usually paired with big SS amps to control the bass. You can find many other speakers with the same xdb rating that are an easier load on the amp. And its those differences that will have an effect on volume without altering sensitivity.

Sure there can be perceived differences when using different speakers on the same amp, but that doesn't change the basic science that I have previously stated. Here is an article that confirms my statement that you seem to doubt, and I hope it helps you to understand,

Let’s talk about dBs, loudness, and sensitivity

Also, here is one of many online calculators that you can plug in the numbers and see that my calculations are correct, within a very slight margin of error.

AllegroSound

So again, the only choice the OP has to get an increase in volume is to use a speaker with higher sensitivity since he can't add more power to the current speaker. If you have another solution, I would really like to hear it.

Actually I can buy higher power model, which will double the powers, but do you think the Denton will work under so much power, can enlighten me? Also is Denton need so much power like 300 watts?

NO, you cannot use a higher power amp with the Denton speaker.

Sorry, I have no experience listening to these speakers.

Stereophile measurements in the review of the Wharfedale Jade 3 list the sensitivity at 83.5db, which is 2.5db lower than your Denton. This will make the issue of wanting a very loud volume more difficult.

Sorry, you're missing the point of my post. The Wharfedale Jade 3 will NOT likely play as loud as the Denton, and NOT a speaker you should consider. The Aon 3 at 90db sensitivity is a much better choice for being able to play loud.