"Any other recommendations? Once again, I'm not looking for speakers with colorations, must extremely dynamic, dead neatral and transparent without snake oil!"
There's really no way to define those qualities. They'll mean different things to different people. It would help if you can give some examples of systems you've heard that highlight the qualities you are looking for. Also, and more importantly, if you can't list any systems for references, you may want to do so before buying anything. The reason for this is to be sure that you want is actually achievable. Otherwise, you can loose a lot of money. |
"Zd542: Yes, it's hard but I think Proac Response D2 suit me well, dead neutral and amazing bass range, for your info, I'm driving my speakers using no hype technology products like JDS Labs ODAC, Blue Jeans cables, and Class D Audio power amplifier, no preamp/ CD player / phono etc..."
I didn't realize you actually heard the ProAc's. So many people just go by reviews and opinions, I sometimes forget there's still a few of us that demo gear before we buy it. Its really hard to mess up with a pair of ProAc's. One of my favorite speakers. For SS amps, Ayre, Pass and Rowland was the best match. For tubes, Quicksilver, ARC and VAC. |
"Zd542: Yes, it's hard but I think Proac Response D2 suit me well, dead neutral and amazing bass range, for your info, I'm driving my speakers using no hype technology products like JDS Labs ODAC, Blue Jeans cables, and Class D Audio power amplifier, no preamp/ CD player / phono etc..."
When I read through that post, the level of detail you give would suggest that you've actually done some thorough listening to the speakers. If that's not the case, you may want to rethink your strategy. It's not possible to come up with that kind of detail from specs. Even if you use reviews, more things can go wrong than right.
Have you heard anything that you would be willing to buy? Even if its out of your price range, it can still be used as a reference. |
"05-09-15: Tls49
It's not possible to come up with that kind of detail from specs.
Agree, however, since very loud and dynamic at loud volume are very important, you should be concerned with speaker sensitivity. If the Wharfedale Denton at 86db was not adequate, then it will be best to look at speakers with a higher sensitivity, most likely in the range of 90db and above."
For the most part, I agree. But you still have to like the speakers. |
"I once owned a pair of speakers, and loved everything about them except that due to their low sensitivity they were not capable of the desired volume with certain music, even using a little more than maximum power for the speaker."
Power amp specs can't be trusted. For example, I have a basic 2 channel Sony receiver rated at 150 watts/ch I use on my computer speakers. The Sony is only a few hundred dollars, but compare it to my Ayre V5 that's also rated for 150 watts/ch, and the first thing you'll notice when you listen to them is that the V5 is vastly more powerful than the Sony. It also sounds vastly different.
As far as your comment about the speaker being the total package, I'm not sure how you would define that, but I know what you're saying. If you'll notice, up to this point I haven't made a speaker recommendation. The reason is that I can't think of any small speakers that will do what the OP is asking. I can think of plenty floor standers that he may like, but not monitors. That's why I asked the OP is he could provide some type of reference. There's just not enough info to go on here. |
"OK Zd542, you're preaching to the choir."
You're right in that I figured you already knew this. I made the comment because I thought some of the other posters may not be aware. I should have put some type of disclaimer in.
The only point of yours that I would mention is that instead of getting more efficient speakers, you can get a more powerful amp. Yes, I know the OP already has one, but given his demands, he may have to modify his approach. Look at this once more.
"My next aim for powerful speakers, will be something near perfect immune to distortions, must be extreme dynamic, go very loud and does not make the sound quality collapsed, also I insist to stick with bookshelf size, few options in my mind:
Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 (with NrT upgrade, worth?)
Mark&Daniel Ruby
Dynaudio DM 2/8
Proac Response D2
Soundfield Audio Monitor 1
For Dynaudio and Mark&Daniel, I have concern on power and drive efficiency, though I'm using a Class D Audio SDS-400C power amp, it work damn good with my Denton (warm + transparent gear goes really well). My considerations based on factors in this order: price, near full range dynamic, neutral and transparent sonic quality, availability (as I'm from Malaysia, not easy to achieve those speakers), and last your opinions? Any other recommendations? Once again, I'm not looking for speakers with colorations, must extremely dynamic, dead neatral and transparent without snake oil!"
If the OP wants those results, he must do some listening. There's no way around it. That's quite a list. I'll mention the reference again. Without more input and work on the OP's part, I'm not convinced that what he's asking for is even achievable. And even if it is, the price of it all may be more a lot more than he's planning on. |
"The OP's speakers are rated to 100w, and he is using a 140w amp. For a 3db increase he would need a 280w amp. Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker?"
I must have missed what speakers the OP has because I thought this thread was to find a new pair. That said, you're not going win me over with specs like this. Given what was said in the earlier posts, it looks like we are in agreement that amp specs are very unreliable. Given that, if his speakers are rated at 100 watts, that still leaves me with the same question; who's watts are we talking about? Then to go on about needing 10x the power to get an additional 3db in volume. Of course, we all know that, and it sounds like a reasonable argument, but its not that relevant in this case.
"Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker? Sure he could get a 150w Ayre V5 like yours, and things may improve in dynamics, but not volume, and it's not in his budget."
Again, I'm not sure exactly what speaker we are talking about, but my answer is going to be almost certainly, yes. An Ayre like I have would probably be worth the extra money. Not to get too side tracked, but in my main system, I actually have 2 Ayre V-5's vertical biamping a pair of Vandersteen 2's. That's over 10k in amplification for a pair of 2k speakers. I'm a very big believer in the concept of putting my money where my mouth is. (And if you haven't noticed I have a pretty big mouth and it needs all the help git can get.) All I'm getting at here, is that I'm not telling someone to do something that I wouldn't do myself.
Back to comparing the Sony to the Ayre. My claim is that volume isn't the relevant factor here. Because at 10x power for 3db in volume, we're talking about total volume. Both amps can produce x db of noise. For a meaningful comparison, the volume of specific frequencies must be considered. Using a run of the mill, full range floor standing speaker, aprox 88-90db that doesn't drop too far down to make it a very difficult load, as an example. As the frequencies get lower, my Sony receiver will not be able to produce those frequencies at a consistently level volume. It will continue to struggle until at some point, it isn't even able to produce the frequencies at all. The Ayre, on the other hand, will have no problem driving the speaker at all frequencies. That's the real difference in power that you won't see by looking at the specs. Also remember that I'm not even touching on the subjective qualities, that at least for me, will justify the Ayre's price.
"Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart. So the only solution to his problem is a higher sensitivity speaker. The challenge will be to find one he likes that is in his budget, and can only be determined by listening."
This is just speculation because there's many other factors involve here besides what's in your quote. (Although I do agree with your last sentence.) What I can tell you for sure, is that the OP is going to have a moment of truth. He's going to hook up some equipment, listen to it and then make a decision as to whether he likes it or not. The only real question is going to be if he does this before, or after he spends a lot of money. |
"I never said you need 10x power for a 3db increase in volume. To achieve a 3db increase in volume, you either double amp power or increase speaker sensitivity by 3db."
You're right. The statement was a typo on my part.
"Yes, I have assumed his power amp is being driven by an adequate signal, but please tell me what factors, and be specific to his setup, not some extreme scenario.
My comment was in reference to this quote.
"Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart."
Something like that can only be true if all other factors are equal. Things like impedance curve, type of xover used, driver size, ported or non ported bass, room placement, etc will all work the amp differently even though the sensitivity specs are the same. A good example of what I'm talking about is Wilson speakers. Even though they have fairly high sensitivity ratings, they're usually paired with big SS amps to control the bass. You can find many other speakers with the same xdb rating that are an easier load on the amp. And its those differences that will have an effect on volume without altering sensitivity. |
"Zd, there is no need to split hairs. I don't disagree that these can cause minor differences, but since the power/sensitivity is a logarithmic relationship, they will not be significant to the basic calculations. Yes, room placement can increase certain frequencies, but that is a tonal balance issue, not an overall volume issue."
Maybe we are splitting hairs. I don't argue the basic facts that you present, just how important other factors are in relation to those facts. But you do acknowledge them as well, so I don't see real disagreement here. |
" for not works for all tracks, especially those less than perfect recording or record mastering at the extreme dynamic peak...hmm"
There's a price to pay when you use equipment that is very revealing. Good recordings sound better and bad ones sound worse. Your system's not at fault. Its just showing you what's on the recording. |
Wim1983,
After reading your posts again, I think I understand what you're trying to do.
"My considerations based on factors in this order: price, near full range dynamic, neutral and transparent sonic quality, availability (as I'm from Malaysia, not easy to achieve those speakers), and last your opinions? Any other recommendations? Once again, I'm not looking for speakers with colorations, must extremely dynamic, dead neatral and transparent without snake oil!"
If those qualities are what you're after, you really need to look at your whole system instead of just speakers. The electronics are just as important. Take the amp, for example. Its not that you need more power. You need an amp that matches up with the same qualities you list as important. There's a big difference. Also, you need all the components working together. If you don't have a good match with even just 1 component, you can lose most, if not all of those qualities. |
"05-15-15: Wim1983
Zd542: Well, yes audio chain is pretty complicated to begin with, I'll stick with scientific objective way on choosing my gears, that's why I look for budget DAC like JDS Labs ODAC, transparent setup just very important in music listening and analysis (sometimes), everything come later, and I have absolutely enjoy my music collection ever with my current setup, sound quality, sound stage, musical tonal balance, well except dynamic and bass perfection just with a pair of bookshelf speakers, which remains to be craved by most audiophile, having said that we are clear that there is no perfect solution, but a reasonable near perfect solution based on given assumptions is drafted, and I'll start from there..."
We all need to do things our own way, so I respect your decision. But if you'll notice, the discussion always comes back to the same issue. It's the point at which the objective ends and the subjective begins. Unfortunately, the qualities you are asking about won't reveal themselves in measurements. You simply can't measure things like timbre, dynamic contrast, imaging, etc..
I wish I could give you some info that will help, but I just don't know how to build a system any other way. |
"05-15-15: Wim1983
Zd542: Exactly, bravo that's why we are discussing on "speakers", this is only component in the chain that is very difficult to get best of it, because you need to consider price, again budget, then the way sound is generated, which is the most subjective aspect."
Overall, I agree. Where we differ is that I consider all components equally. For me, the amp, preamp and source is just as important as the speaker.
"By the way, what's your current system? I'm curious? Or you have too many, perhaps tell me what's your favorite? I can have a look haha
Wim1983 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I have 2 systems. My main system is:
Vansersteen Model 2 speakers, 2 Ayre V-5 amps, Wadia 861SE cd player, AQ cables and ESP power cords. The Wadia drives the amps directly but I have a preamp I put in the system when I want to listen to records or a different source.
2nd system:
Wadia 302 CD player, VAC 30/30 amp, Wilson Cub speakers, TARA cables, Furutech line conditioner, Richard Grey power cords. Like the other system, I also have a preamp I put in the system for other sources. |
"For Vandersteen, hmm I heard some mixed praises and critics about them, I think it's not easy to setup, low price lower end is not attractive to me, while high price need complicated setup and money...
Wim1983"
You're the one that doesn't know what they are doing and asking for help. I don't get all of my information from critics and reviews. That would be you. You're just jealous because over here in the US, we make all of our stuff out of audiophile grade coconut shells, and not those third world ones that you guys have to settle for. Sure, we both make our shoes out of old tires, but mine are Michelin's. So don't tell me we don't know quality over here. |
"Also sound can be subjective to different persons, so I can foresee that one like it or not like it"
I agree, but you can only make that claim if you've actually heard the product yourself. You can't do that. In the US we call that not knowing your ass from your elbow.
But don't take my word for it, take yours.
"For Vandersteen, hmm I heard some mixed praises and critics about them, I think it's not easy to setup, low price lower end is not attractive to me"
"As I mentioned, it's the price my primary consideration here..."
"Zd542: I see that you are on America speakers, they look like alien to me, haha, those weird box must be full of magic..."
"As the technology is very advanced and mature I can say, much of the product free of snake oil, but more solid science proof."
God only knows what would pass for scientific proof in your world. I'd be willing to bet that if we could read your mind, we'd be board with our own. |
"05-16-15: Wim1983
Zd542: It's sad, audition is not possible for me, I can solely based don reviews and measurements (though maybe not correct), it's Malaysia, not the HiFi wonderland USA."
Great. But that's no reason to insult people that are trying to give you answers to questions you ask. Especially when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Here's another example of your genius.
"Also audition is kinda psychology trap to our brains, very fishy, very tricky, and very doubtful, even the setup is correct, human may tends to hear "something" else, expected and reality could be different."
If that's the case, then how do you know that your system is at fault? Maybe it sounds OK and you've just fallen into one of your psychology traps? And what I really don't understand is, if listening is such a poor way to judge audio components, why do you keep asking others what they're subjective opinions are on how components sound? The only thing that says is you trust complete strangers over your own judgment.
Maybe you should loose the attitude. You might learn something. |
