The most dynamic & transparent bookshelf

Buchardt s400

Newbee: You are the boss :), for that price and the famous Silverline, it must be damn good, I guess, neverland or dreamland for me though :(

Silverline Bolero's which I have used and venerated for the past 5 years.

Newbee: By the way, what's the full range you using?

Bcgator: Thanks for your advice. Yay I think I'll do some listening auditions with Wharfedale Jade 3 or GoldenEar Aon 3

Hopefully can do like a week audition at my home with huge collection of music, as few tracks testing does not help much, it seems most of the time I'm struck with British sound, hmm...

Newbee: Yes I'll keep the Denton forever xD. I'll just need to get another pair with greater dynamic to be played at my hometown :P

I have been following this thread since it started, and I can sense the frustration of other members and I understand why...

Wim1983, you're asking good questions. And people are giving good advice. The problem is this is like asking people what kind of candy bar you should go buy based on how different candy bars taste to other people. Whether it's Wharfedale, or Wilson Benesch, or Willy Wonka Speakers, none of them will sound the same to you as they sound to me because our ears are different and depending on age and physical condition we'll likely perceive frequencies differently.

I'm going to be blunt here - there is absolutely positively no way around this, you are going to have to go do some auditions and make some purchases and just listen for yourself. You're going back and forth about specs, and reviews, and numbers on paper, and all of that is noise. Again, it's not that different from reading ingredients on the back of a candy bar wrapper and trying to figure out how it will taste. You just have to listen to as many as you can in your area, and then buy the best you can. If you don't like it, buy something else.

Every person on this forum had to do this...there's no shortcut - you are going to have to buy and learn, and eventually you'll end up with speakers you enjoy, and it may even happen on the very first try.

Wim1983, FWIW I bought some Dentons for a second system but I did play them in my main system 'just for fun'. I was amazed by the fullness of the bass (well away from the wall behind them) and the tonal balance of the mid-range which was both on the warm side of neutral but retained very good transparence thru the mid range.

But, compared to my full range speakers the highs were neither extended nor transparent, in fact they were a bit more forward in the mids and rolled off and congested in the highs. All in all a very pleasant sound when driven by my 40wt tube amp and I enjoy them in my second system.

My point is that perhaps the 'loss of dynamic range' you are experiencing has more to due with the tonal balance of the Denton itself than anything else. But, if you really like the tonal balance of the Denton you may be giving up something important to you.

What ever speakers you buy, you should really hear them in your home if you can before purchase, or at a minimum take the Dentons into the dealers store for a side by side comparison.

Good luck.

Sorry, I have no experience listening to these speakers.

Tls49: Though I have concerns on how the sound quality, any thoughts on how both of them sound?

Sorry, you're missing the point of my post. The Wharfedale Jade 3 will NOT likely play as loud as the Denton, and NOT a speaker you should consider. The Aon 3 at 90db sensitivity is a much better choice for being able to play loud.

Tls49: Ya, that's the thing, the Denton is not able to take over 60% of my power amp full strength, so it's will be very interesting to see how the power amp drive the Wharfedale Jade 3. What's power range for Wharfedale Jade 3? Any thoughts and calculations?

Stereophile measurements in the review of the Wharfedale Jade 3 list the sensitivity at 83.5db, which is 2.5db lower than your Denton. This will make the issue of wanting a very loud volume more difficult.

Mapman: Thanks for your experience sharing. Golden Aon 3 has almost same price as Wharfedale Jade 3, but it seems the price of Golden Aon 3 offered at Malaysia is way over high than price in USA, hmm...I'll take some times for careful considerations and some auditions perhaps, since both of them are available in Malaysia for audition.

Aeon 3 is one of the best I have heard at its price point.

Zd542: Thanks for your information. I'm not sure what I said had offence you. Sorry to bother you. I'll take care my attitude now. CHEERS!

"05-16-15: Wim1983
Zd542: It's sad, audition is not possible for me, I can solely based don reviews and measurements (though maybe not correct), it's Malaysia, not the HiFi wonderland USA."

Great. But that's no reason to insult people that are trying to give you answers to questions you ask. Especially when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Here's another example of your genius.

"Also audition is kinda psychology trap to our brains, very fishy, very tricky, and very doubtful, even the setup is correct, human may tends to hear "something" else, expected and reality could be different."

If that's the case, then how do you know that your system is at fault? Maybe it sounds OK and you've just fallen into one of your psychology traps? And what I really don't understand is, if listening is such a poor way to judge audio components, why do you keep asking others what they're subjective opinions are on how components sound? The only thing that says is you trust complete strangers over your own judgment.

Maybe you should loose the attitude. You might learn something.

Johnnyb53: Yes, it's should be easy for me to get this speakers. Though I'm not sure to get between Wharfedale Jade 3 and GoldenEar Aon3? Any further thoughts?

For Wharfedale Jade 3, the 3-way Aperiodic system seem very interesting and I hope it works.

While for GoldenEar Aon3, What Hi-Fi review mentioned lack dynamic?

So I'm curious to know when volume level is high, how's the sound compression? Collapsed?

Since neutrality, dynamics and budget are primary concerns, let me also recommend GoldenEar Aons. I heard the Aon 3s and they really have the dynamics and room-filling capabilities of a small to mid-sized floorstander. The treble is very smooth and yet extended with its folded ribbon tweeter.

Fortunately, there is an authorized distributor (or dealer, I don't know which) in Malaysia, A &L Audio Station in Kuala Lumpur. See GoldenEar's Dealer Locator for details.

Zd542: It's sad, audition is not possible for me, I can solely based don reviews and measurements (though maybe not correct), it's Malaysia, not the HiFi wonderland USA. Also audition is kinda psychology trap to our brains, very fishy, very tricky, and very doubtful, even the setup is correct, human may tends to hear "something" else, expected and reality could be different.

Once again I concluded that I have no problem playing all my music collection with the Denton, but lack dynamics when play orchestra like this:
Joe Hisaishi in Budokan - Studio Ghibli 25 Years Concert

Thanks again for your recommendations. I'll take it!

"Also sound can be subjective to different persons, so I can foresee that one like it or not like it"

I agree, but you can only make that claim if you've actually heard the product yourself. You can't do that. In the US we call that not knowing your ass from your elbow.

But don't take my word for it, take yours.

"For Vandersteen, hmm I heard some mixed praises and critics about them, I think it's not easy to setup, low price lower end is not attractive to me"

"As I mentioned, it's the price my primary consideration here..."

"Zd542: I see that you are on America speakers, they look like alien to me, haha, those weird box must be full of magic..."

"As the technology is very advanced and mature I can say, much of the product free of snake oil, but more solid science proof."

God only knows what would pass for scientific proof in your world. I'd be willing to bet that if we could read your mind, we'd be board with our own.

Zd542: Oh don't get me wrong, I like American products, you see my chain I bought JDS Labs ODAC, Blue Jeans cables, etc. As the technology is very advanced and mature I can say, much of the product free of snake oil, but more solid science proof. As I mentioned, it's the price my primary consideration here...

Also sound can be subjective to different persons, so I can foresee that one like it or not like it, it's not that the product not good sometimes, it's people way of thinking, CHEERS!

"For Vandersteen, hmm I heard some mixed praises and critics about them, I think it's not easy to setup, low price lower end is not attractive to me, while high price need complicated setup and money...
Wim1983"

You're the one that doesn't know what they are doing and asking for help. I don't get all of my information from critics and reviews. That would be you. You're just jealous because over here in the US, we make all of our stuff out of audiophile grade coconut shells, and not those third world ones that you guys have to settle for. Sure, we both make our shoes out of old tires, but mine are Michelin's. So don't tell me we don't know quality over here.

Zd542: I see that you are on America speakers, they look like alien to me, haha, those weird box must be full of magic...

For Vandersteen, hmm I heard some mixed praises and critics about them, I think it's not easy to setup, low price lower end is not attractive to me, while high price need complicated setup and money...

"05-15-15: Wim1983
Zd542: Exactly, bravo that's why we are discussing on "speakers", this is only component in the chain that is very difficult to get best of it, because you need to consider price, again budget, then the way sound is generated, which is the most subjective aspect."

Overall, I agree. Where we differ is that I consider all components equally. For me, the amp, preamp and source is just as important as the speaker.

"By the way, what's your current system? I'm curious? Or you have too many, perhaps tell me what's your favorite? I can have a look haha
Wim1983 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"

I have 2 systems. My main system is:

Vansersteen Model 2 speakers, 2 Ayre V-5 amps, Wadia 861SE cd player, AQ cables and ESP power cords. The Wadia drives the amps directly but I have a preamp I put in the system when I want to listen to records or a different source.

2nd system:

Wadia 302 CD player, VAC 30/30 amp, Wilson Cub speakers, TARA cables, Furutech line conditioner, Richard Grey power cords. Like the other system, I also have a preamp I put in the system for other sources.

Zd542: Exactly, bravo that's why we are discussing on "speakers", this is only component in the chain that is very difficult to get best of it, because you need to consider price, again budget, then the way sound is generated, which is the most subjective aspect. Speakers to me is a beauty creation of state of the art object, it's very physical thing to consider, and a lot of fun when you hear it and look at it xD

By the way, what's your current system? I'm curious? Or you have too many, perhaps tell me what's your favorite? I can have a look haha

Acousticfrontiers: Thanks for your clarifications. Though I'm very curious how the bass works without ports? So far I know that Wharfedale Jade 3 also no ports, I'm very tempted to get a pair of it, wonder how the 3-way Aperiodic system works, plus the price and audition is easier in my country. You see with the same price, I can get a floorstander Wharfedale Jade 5 instead, which really tempting to me :)

"05-15-15: Wim1983
Zd542: Well, yes audio chain is pretty complicated to begin with, I'll stick with scientific objective way on choosing my gears, that's why I look for budget DAC like JDS Labs ODAC, transparent setup just very important in music listening and analysis (sometimes), everything come later, and I have absolutely enjoy my music collection ever with my current setup, sound quality, sound stage, musical tonal balance, well except dynamic and bass perfection just with a pair of bookshelf speakers, which remains to be craved by most audiophile, having said that we are clear that there is no perfect solution, but a reasonable near perfect solution based on given assumptions is drafted, and I'll start from there..."

We all need to do things our own way, so I respect your decision. But if you'll notice, the discussion always comes back to the same issue. It's the point at which the objective ends and the subjective begins. Unfortunately, the qualities you are asking about won't reveal themselves in measurements. You simply can't measure things like timbre, dynamic contrast, imaging, etc..

I wish I could give you some info that will help, but I just don't know how to build a system any other way.

Wim1983. I agree the ATC look is more traditional. Take a look at the drive units though, and the engineering that goes into them. I'm personally not sure there is anything better around that price point. They solidly outperformed the new KEF Reference 1 standmount according to a client to came for a demo, though he purchased the new Dynaudio active speakers in the end.

The ATC low end frequency response statistics are very conservative, that's just how the company is, but in reality they have the 12dB/octave sealed box rolloff as opposed to the 24dB/octave ported box rolloff so bass actually goes down quite low. On the plus side you get the benefits of extremely accurate bass, as opposed to what you get out of some (not all) ported speakers.

Acousticfrontiers: Thanks for you recommendation. However my budget is limited, with same price I think I can get better speakers, while ATC loudspeakers look a bit traditional to me though, also the frequency response raise some concerns to me, seems not low enough.

Zd542: Well, yes audio chain is pretty complicated to begin with, I'll stick with scientific objective way on choosing my gears, that's why I look for budget DAC like JDS Labs ODAC, transparent setup just very important in music listening and analysis (sometimes), everything come later, and I have absolutely enjoy my music collection ever with my current setup, sound quality, sound stage, musical tonal balance, well except dynamic and bass perfection just with a pair of bookshelf speakers, which remains to be craved by most audiophile, having said that we are clear that there is no perfect solution, but a reasonable near perfect solution based on given assumptions is drafted, and I'll start from there...

Speaking of amp, I believe all good amp (I mean all properly design) sound the same at small to medium volume, yes this should be true, unless you mess up with your "transparent" audio chain with some snake oil, or you need big concert sound, which is not realistic to me...

So what I want after all? I need a pair of powerful bookshelf speakers with great tonal balance and accuracy, my current Denton considered near perfect, indeed I can buy the same model, but then I would like to try some other speakers with innovative technology. Also I plan to move my Diamond 122 to bedroom for casual listening, and find another powerful speakers to be played in a medium size living room.

Buy a boombox and no more problems.

Wim1983,

After reading your posts again, I think I understand what you're trying to do.

"My considerations based on factors in this order: price, near full range dynamic, neutral and transparent sonic quality, availability (as I'm from Malaysia, not easy to achieve those speakers), and last your opinions? Any other recommendations? Once again, I'm not looking for speakers with colorations, must extremely dynamic, dead neatral and transparent without snake oil!"

If those qualities are what you're after, you really need to look at your whole system instead of just speakers. The electronics are just as important. Take the amp, for example. Its not that you need more power. You need an amp that matches up with the same qualities you list as important. There's a big difference. Also, you need all the components working together. If you don't have a good match with even just 1 component, you can lose most, if not all of those qualities.

ATCs are known for their dynamic abilities, a result of the massive magnet structures and underhung voice coils (coil stays in magnetic gap at higher excursions).

The SCM19v2 which another Agoner mentioned has their SL (Super Linear) drivers. I would call these speakers "super-resolution".

The SCM19v2 was an Absolute Sound product of the year for 2014 and a was picked by a Stereophile writer as one of their favorites of 2014.

Disclaimer: ATC dealer

Wim1983
The R300 is a dynamic low distortion loudspeaker and so should meet your requirements. To get the most out of it
will require suitable stands, amplification and location in the room. Speaker location is one of the most important
factors in overall system performance. Good luck!

Nyame: For near field computer to mid range bedroom listening, I found that bookshelf speakers is loud enough, I just need more dynamic and less distortion on the extreme frequency range.

Zd542: This one I understand, how the recording is mastering becomes always focus on how we evaluate and measure, but now that I found that some tracks bass notes actually does not distort when pass certain volume, this is different from what I hear last time, so this shock me that the Denton is "writing in", in other words, it getting powerful with more so called "burn in", this is one of the shortcomings of old traditional speakers...

" for not works for all tracks, especially those less than perfect recording or record mastering at the extreme dynamic peak...hmm"

There's a price to pay when you use equipment that is very revealing. Good recordings sound better and bad ones sound worse. Your system's not at fault. Its just showing you what's on the recording.

My suspect is Denton not fully "write in", hmm...

Tsl49: To revise how dynamic is the Denton, I have to clarify with everybody here, again...I found that the speakers is able to drive at very high dynamic volume without distortions, but for some tracks like bass drum or piercing treble note, it will distort, hmm...so it can drive really really high dynamic volume, it can go party, for not works for all tracks, especially those less than perfect recording or record mastering at the extreme dynamic peak...hmm

Wim1983:
The R300 is very low in distortion and this is why it has excellent transparency. Cabinet distortion is very low due to
the mechanical integrity of the drive units and cabinet. There is a reason why the speaker weighs 27 lbs.The question of loudness is more difficult. Maximum output is specified at 110db which is about what one would expect from stand-mounted loudspeaker with a 6" bass driver. This category of loudspeakers is designed for use in small to medium sized rooms. If your requirements require more massive outputs, you should consider a larger floor standing speaker.

Nyame: Thanks for your explanation, may I know how good in terms of distortion resistance? How loud and still able to maintain accurate details and imaging?

"Zd, there is no need to split hairs. I don't disagree that these can cause minor differences, but since the power/sensitivity is a logarithmic relationship, they will not be significant to the basic calculations. Yes, room placement can increase certain frequencies, but that is a tonal balance issue, not an overall volume issue."

Maybe we are splitting hairs. I don't argue the basic facts that you present, just how important other factors are in relation to those facts. But you do acknowledge them as well, so I don't see real disagreement here.

hmm, I think so, the Denton definitely has limitation, I guess I can only play it at sweet volume, though the bass is nothing but impressive by it's own. Hmm, so I need to look for higher sensitivity speakers, with amazing soundstage, imaging, details, and accuracy. It seems I got few to be added into the short list include:

Grand Teton Gen2 (this should be my only choice, in most aspects)
Legacy Audio Studio HD (anybody can comment on this?)
Wharfedale Jade 3 (those can get it at good price, but too big for me, also need special stand for this)
GoldenEar Aon 3 (price pretty close and still affordable)
KEF R300 (actually not cheap in my country)
Sonist Concerto 2 (wow, this got 95db sensitivity, pretty high)
Clearwave Resolution 6 (used pair, still not cheap)

and few others which I'm not affordable:
Speaker Art Super Clef (owner is low profile, hmm...)
Reference 3A MM de Capo BE Monitor (high price product)
Joseph Audio Pulsar (neverland OR dreamland only)

Thanks guys!

Actually I can buy higher power model, which will double the powers, but do you think the Denton will work under so much power, can enlighten me? Also is Denton need so much power like 300 watts?

NO, you cannot use a higher power amp with the Denton speaker.

Unlike most stand mounted loudspeakers, which uses two drivers,the R300 is a full 3 way design. The benefits are superior midrange transparency and dynamics. Moreover the tweeter is located in the acoustic centre of the midrange driver for better phase response and coherence. The end result is an a loudspeaker with excellent transparency and precise imaging. It sounds really good.

AllegroSound: Actually I can buy higher power model, which will double the powers, but do you think the Denton will work under so much power, can enlighten me? Also is Denton need so much power like 300 watts?

Nyame: Yes, I have heard a lot of good things about KEF R300, very tempted to get a pair coz it fit in price, availability, outlook, and technology. Mind to share how fabulous it sound?

Something like that can only be true if all other factors are equal. Things like impedance curve, type of xover used, driver size, ported or non ported bass, room placement, etc will all work the amp differently even though the sensitivity specs are the same.

Zd, there is no need to split hairs. I don't disagree that these can cause minor differences, but since the power/sensitivity is a logarithmic relationship, they will not be significant to the basic calculations. Yes, room placement can increase certain frequencies, but that is a tonal balance issue, not an overall volume issue.

A good example of what I'm talking about is Wilson speakers. Even though they have fairly high sensitivity ratings, they're usually paired with big SS amps to control the bass. You can find many other speakers with the same xdb rating that are an easier load on the amp. And its those differences that will have an effect on volume without altering sensitivity.

Sure there can be perceived differences when using different speakers on the same amp, but that doesn't change the basic science that I have previously stated. Here is an article that confirms my statement that you seem to doubt, and I hope it helps you to understand,

Let’s talk about dBs, loudness, and sensitivity

Also, here is one of many online calculators that you can plug in the numbers and see that my calculations are correct, within a very slight margin of error.

AllegroSound

So again, the only choice the OP has to get an increase in volume is to use a speaker with higher sensitivity since he can't add more power to the current speaker. If you have another solution, I would really like to hear it.