The Lifespan of an LP?

I heard it is not a good idea to play a record more often than once a day. They say it needs time to 'recover', whatever it is.

Inna, that’s what people thought in the ’60s. playing Sergeant Pepper’s or Surrealistic Pillow over and over again was certain to wear it out in no time. When I first started getting into vinyl again in the last decade I researched the question because I wondered if it was actually true. I never found anyone currently professing to say that that is the case although it was widely believed at one point in time.

The older the vinyl the better so it’s not surprising that stuff from the late 40s the 50s and the 60s hold up so well. I’m really not so sure about the endurance of the flimsier vinyl starting approximately in the ’80s. It’s obviously a less hard and durable material. Much more prone to surface noise.

I can tell you that one of the best things to look for are mono recordings from the late 50s and early ’60s. Many of these were played very little because once stereo came out people just put them away and never played them again thinking that it was an inferior format. Over time I have found incredibly pristine mono recordings from this time period and they really are something special to experience.

Hmm, so it remains a kind of hypothesis.
I listen to some records often enough but not every day or every other day. I also clean them after 10-15 plays. For background music I listen to Nakamichi tape deck.

Been buying vinyl record since 1964. When Capitol records state that they've sold 8 million copies of Sgt. Peppers my audio collector friend and I say hogwash, between the 2 of us, we've owned that many.........
Many of the answers and yes, even opinions stated here are quite true. It depends. Just up from here it was mentioned about playing a record more than once a day. If you've ever seen a microscopic video of a stylus passing in slow motion thru a record groove it gives the appearance of a tire going thru water. Even though vinyl is considered a solid, it's not. It is a very dense liquid state and the 1.5g stylus is making waves. I wish I could provide a link for this but alas I cannot. If someone can find this anomaly, please share.

Right, vinyl is not solid, stylus disturbs it and damages it a little, I suppose. 

The problem with vinyl is usually not out-and-out wear from too much playing. The problem is that a record needs to be treated with respect.  Don't eat fried chicken before you take a record out of the jacket to put it on.  Don't leave them out in direct sunlight to bake n' warp.  Put 'em back in the jacket after you've played 'em. If you see dust, cat hair, or sand on the surface, gently wipe it off with a clean soft cloth or dedicated record brush. Similarly, if you see schmutz on the turntable platter, clean it off.  Don't play 'em wet. Try not to zoom your tonearm sideways over the record when you're hunkering down to cue up the track you want to hear.  Don't stack them in a random pile.  Don't stack them horizontally, either.

Sure, all this stuff is pretty much common sense.  But if you're buying a used record, who knows where it's been?

Like Inna,
a Nakamichi cassette player becomes my musical source to cut down on my use of records.  I also 
Place Last record preservative on 
all new records.  Cd’s are also 
a source of my music.

When we were kids and the record would skip, someone told me to put a penny on the head shell. I'm sure that helped wear out the record! 

jnovak -- As an audiophile even back then, I'd put a dime on the head shell instead. A more expensive solution but less weight.

L.A.S.T. [Liquid Archival Sound Treatment] is a fluorocarbon-based record preservative and lubricant and leaves no discernable residue, adds no noise, and in my experience has rescued many a garage-sale disc from the trash. overall noise levels dropped by at least a record grade, formerly distorted records became more listenable. i am no chemist but it is claimed to add more elasticity to the top layer of molecules [supposedly 10 deep] in the vinyl groove, which help to reduce distortion and noise. one warning, NEVER leave the bottle cap off of it, as it will evaporate and it ain't exactly cheap. 

The Library of Congress did a study of archival audio storage in the 1980s. In this study they concluded that laminated media like tape and CDs had lifespans that were measured in years and a couple of decades, depending on storage. Non-laminated media, like LPs and the stampers that made them (if stored properly) will last decades and well into a century. I have LPs from the early 1950s that play fine- and are now 70 years old!

The Library of Congress did a study of archival audio storage in the 1980s. In this study they concluded that laminated media like tape and CDs had lifespans that were measured in years and a couple of decades, depending on storage.

Ralph, The CD is about to turn 40 next year and so far there have been very few reports of CDs failing.  I know that I have CDs from the 80s that still look and play just fine.  So I think we can scrap that LOC study.

I have a CD that was.....recalled (yes, you read it correctly). Years later, it still plays just fine.

You will wear out your stylus before you will wear down the vinyl. I have some records that are over 40-55 years old and still sound great..

I also use LAST tape head preservative before playing each cassette. Takes only a few seconds to apply. Great stuff. Again, slightly better sound and most important - virtually no wear of the reproduction head. Of course, I also clean the head every 10 hours of play or so.
8 molecule deep, LAST vinyl preservative. Trust Walter Davis of LAST, he knows the way.

The CD is about to turn 40 next year and so far there have been very few reports of CDs failing.

?? I've had a few of them fail for no good reason. I think everyone has- heck, I've bought a couple brand new and found them to be unplayable.  If something happens to the TOC the disk becomes unplayable. At any rate, you can add my report to those few that you know of.

1+ Ralph, I have had plenty of bad CDs. Plenty of bad records also. Back in the 70's there was a lot of trouble with HCL gas coming from the break down of PVC during the molding process creating little bubbles in the plastic.  I must have returned 25-30 records back then. All American. Never had this problem with a European label although I have gotten a few noisy Phillips and DGG discs over the years. 
@antinn , thanks for the links!

?? I've had a few of them fail for no good reason.

1+ Ralph, I have had plenty of bad CDs.

I'm thinking that the return rate of CDs is probably lower than that of LPs.

In this study they concluded that laminated media like tape and CDs had lifespans that were measured in years and a couple of decades, depending on storage.

It's not clear from the line above exactly what the study concluded about CD lifespan, but if they meant that CDs had a lifespan of 25 years, they were way low.  If CDs from 1996 and before were failing in large numbers we would be hearing a LOT more about it.

I'll certainly never look inside every jewel box(?) to check, but whenever I pull a CD from the shelf to play, the disc is fully laminated. It plays, too...even the more scuffed up ones. 

I'm thinking that the return rate of CDs is probably lower than that of LPs.

Yes- as far as new media is concerned, CDs do just fine.

It's not clear from the line above exactly what the study concluded about CD lifespan, but if they meant that CDs had a lifespan of 25 years, they were way low. If CDs from 1996 and before were failing in large numbers we would be hearing a LOT more about it.

This is entirely reasonable. Of course we are hearing about it but its not been a big deal. I don't recall how they did the aging study but a minor error in that process could throw things by a good number of years. Time will tell; in the meantime the CD seems to be going extinct in favor of more compact storage.

FWIW I had a CD fail or more properly the aluminum started to corrode on the outer edge.  The corrosion was under the label and above the polycarbonate.  Has yet to infringe on any of the music.  It was an early '80s disc as I recall. 

Regards,
barts

I have many LPs that were bought new in the 60’s/70’s. As my system improved over the years I thought that a couple of them had “worn out” and replaced them with modern high-mass “audiophile” pressings, only to find out that in most cases the sound wasn’t improved (in some cases it was worse). My system had just improved to the point where I was hearing the limits of the initial recording/production. So, at least in my experience, vinyl wearing out is not much of a problem. 

Haven't read all of the responses to this original question but, obviously, the answer(s) is one of those "it depends" kinda things. Everything heilbron alludes to, and then some, is important: not the least of which is proper care and maintenance of the cartridge stylus and consistent use of something like a good quality carbon fiber record brush. Where the stylus meets the groove is where the magic happens.  So, it's critical to take good care of these two components and keep the stylus clean. Use of something like an Onzow type cleaner, a liquid type cleaner or something more high-tech before and after every play of every record side is very helpful. Some recommend use and proper application of a liquid stylus cleaner occasionally, even when using an Onzow type stylus cleaner. Some recommend use of a stylus treatment like "Last Stylus Treatment", as well. Use of "Last Record Preservative" after records have been properly cleaned, including new records, is also helpful. Yes; new records should be cleaned before playing them in order to remove mold release agents and other residues left from the record pressing process.

Obviously, 50 and 60 years ago, the technology we have now did not exist. At best, audiophiles back then used things like the Watts Disc Preener and the Discwasher with D3 or D4 solution. The records I have from back then still sound great and they have been played a ton. They sound better still, after an ultrasonic cleaning and treatment with Last Record Preservative. My entire collection is stored properly and every record I have is stored in high quality antistatic sleeves (e.g. Mofi's Original Master Sleeves) inserted into the record jackets with the sleeve opening to the inside of the jacket; not facing outward. I also use high quality outer sleeves, as well, but those are mainly to protect the jackets.

The fact of the matter is, even if you only did a few of these things or none of these things, as long as you didn't go out of your way to abuse your records they would still last a very long time. However, sound performance is the audiophile's holy grail. I have records from the 30s & 40s that I inherited from my parents. I wouldn't dare play them on my turntable without cleaning them, first. I'm sure they will still sound, at least OK. The records I bought in the early 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. still sound very good and sound even better (i.e. excellent) after a good ultrasonic cleaning and treatment with Last Record Preservative. This is largely because I have always taken good care of my records. Some sound better than others, of course, but this is a factor of the sound engineering at the time and the quality of the record pressing process. As one commenter put it, if you take good care of your records they will outlast you and continue to sound great. The wear that happens at point of contact between the stylus and the grooves is miniscule. If you take good care of your records they will outlast you and your children, so long as your children take good care of them, as well.        

Many of my LPs are from the 60's and still sound great. Obviously vinyl quality varies. The thin stuff from the oil crisis is an example of some of the shoddy pressings around. The real risk is unintentional damage taking out the LP, putting it on the turntable, applying the stylus etc. Secondly it's the risk of using a damaged, worn out stylus, it happens.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed how silly LP prices are becoming. I am selling off my most of my modest collection of about 2500 albums. I don't want to burden my kids with getting rid of them, when I fall off my perch eventually. A friend who is a record dealer is doing it. The Dylan "Rolling Thunder" box set went for over £400 and Alison Krauss and Union Station Live, for £310. That's just Crazy.

Yep me too. May records I have are from the fifties a new sixties and still sound better then many reissues. Lifespan? With something like 5k, until I’m tired of hearing it

Like 199a6 I have used Last Record Preservative and Last Power Cleaner on all new records worth keeping since Last first appeared in the late '60's or early '70's.  Cleaning a new record with Power Cleaner often removes a layer of "grunge" that new records have, and the Last Record Preservative (which claims to prevent 50 playings) lives up to its hype.  I can take a record from 1970 and it can sound brand new (better than new, actually, because it was Power Cleaned first.)  I have never bought a wash machine because I have never felt the need for it.

When cared for properly, likely far longer than your lifespan. 

 I'm 69 years old.
I bought the "Best of the Animals in 1965".
It still sounds good now when I play it on my LP12.
We had a Magnavox console stereo growing up. Luckily, it wasn't trashed with that old heavy tonearm, and cartridge.

Don't play your most valuable records at all. Put the music on tape and leave the records alone. Then they will last maybe for centuries.

@millercarbonThe sage of Agon. You can always count on him to explain the basics, because that's all that he know.

@millercarbon, The sage of Agon.

You said it. Not me. Does have kind of a ring to it. Just might catch on. If it does, thanks!

Early CDs were so bad to begin with that I wonder how one could tell if they were lately deteriorating, except by visible criteria.

As great an honor as it is to be a sage, the Oracle of Audiogon has more of an alliterative ring to it, doncha think? Also what does an Oracle do anyway but give sage advice? So yeah, Oracle. Definitely.

How about "Auricle of Audiogon"?

If you question hearing your record anew vs much wear, consider getting a needle that tracks higher or lower in the grove than the previous wear pattern.  (Keeping in mind that tracking lower in the groove necessitates extremely clean vinyl)

Vinyl is tough stuff.  Consider that a diamond stylus incurs wear (i.e., has to be replaced) against vinyl, and not the other way around.  Vinyl flexes, gives up its detail, and then returns to normal after a diamond is dragged through its trench.

Your great grandchildren will be listening to them. You can’t wear out a record. 

Okay, Whart is 100% correct.  Inna is wrong!   Sorry, the vinyl record, if of good quality or near 100% virgin vinyl, is an elastic medium.  Once played, it requires about 24 hour rest period prior to returning to it's original shape.  Hence, I have LPs that I have played 100+ times which sound as good (or better with upgraded room and electronics) as long as I treat the record with care. 

I have 28,500 LPs.  The last three collections I purchased include120 LPs from a guy who only bought 25¢ to $1 LPs, often damaged, always used, 2500 LPs from a guy who took great care of his LPs but also often purchased used/abused LPs, and 800 LPs from a guy (major record/CD producer) who had 200,000+ LPs but didn't discern condition (sometimes perfect, sometimes dreadful, mostly used).  So, buying collections or parts thereof are not so full proof.   Oh yes 3 years ago I purchased an opera & classical LP collection of 1200 LPs which were in mint condition.  The owner was fastidious and did not play them very often.  That's the quality of a collection everyone wants.

Also, cleanliness of the stylus, condition of the stylus and turntable set up is paramount to maintaining one's collection.  

Usually after about 20 plays or so I start hearing some small pops. They are still negligible. Maybe after 50 or so, the play noise is readily noticeable, and that’s the time for ultrasonic cleaning. After cleaning, it gets a little bit better, but the small pops do not completely go away, which means the damage is permanently done. However, I would still rate those records as Mint- or VG+++.

The damage is mostly due to badly setup cartridges, old/damaged cartridges, and playing dirty/damaged records. So, if your cartridge set up is near perfect and if you clean records each time you play with needles in good condition, the record will remain in VG+ condition after hundreds of play.

You don’t have to clean each time, it’s audiophiles craze. Cleaning is for dirty records (very dirty). Once they are clean you need carbon fiber brush (before each play). 


If you can hear any degradation in sound quality after 50 times then throw away your worn cartridge or stylus. It’s impossible with a good cartridge (stylus). 

Don’t like the nature of vinyl? Stick to your CDs or files (they will die before your vinyl for sure). 

I don't do ultrasonic clean or spin clean every time. 
I do carbon fiber brush clean each play.
However, after 50 times or so play after a few years without spin/ultrasonic clean, I start hearing more pops. With a regular brush clean I can easily see tiny dusts entrenched in record groove. After ultrasonic clean, the record plays with less pops, and usually sound better.
There is a chance that the records were damaged due to misalignment, because sometimes the cartridge force changes and need readjustment.

I purchased a newly retipped Ortofon MC20 super a few months ago, and I still hear pops on those new albums I purchased several years ago. I have about 10 cartridges used in rotation with four arms, but maybe I need another brand new cartridge to experiment with. 
By the way, even after over 50 times of play, the sound quality remains almost the same. Only a few more small pops. The fact though is, every time a record is played, the record wears out, however small may it be, and it will be noticeable sooner or later depending upon how the record is cared and the turntable is set up.

Maybe you can hear what other human brings can’t hear. 

Another reason may be your re-tipped cartridge. 

Records will outlive us. Don’t worry about them not lasting unless you don’t put them away after playing and just stack them amongst drinks and cigarettes. I don’t know of any such behavior personally😆

I have played records with scratches on my old Denon DP62L just to hear the music and despite the crackles, they don’t sound bad. I won’t play them on my main rig due to being OCD about wear on my pricier cartridges. 
I have those 78rpm shellac’s that I play on my Victrola and those are from the 1930s and 1940s.  

@fleschler,

Nice 78rpm collection. I think I have roughly 500. Bought some boxes filled with 78s and many were given to me while living in Europe. I am estimating that my normal LP collection is about 8500 and growing. Have a bedroom dedicated to the library. 


Yes, I certainly agree, that with a higher resolution system one is apt to experience musical bliss, despite a few minor scratches. I learned through varied experiences that better tonearms due in fact help with damping scratches. Combined with your high resolution system, and voila, it’s magic. 

@audioquest4life  Thank you very much.  Many of my post 1925 78s of jazz/pop and vocals are especially lifelike and dynamic as they were the original direct to disc records.  Many people (non-audiophiles) tell me that they enjoy listening to records with pops and clicks because it sounds real to them.  Then they visit my listening room and find out differently, that the silent surface LPs are really better.   

I too have a dedicated music storage room in my new home but recent acquisitions have required a Tuff-shed in the backyard for 5,000 LPs and 1,000 78s I haven't heard yet (mostly classical and opera & duplicates).   I keep my 7,000 CDs in steel drawer cabinets made by http://www.can-am.ca/ 18,000 LPs and 6,000 78s are in custom built-in wall cabinets in the storage room.   In my previous home, the listening room was 600 sq.ft. and I had similar cabinets lining the walls 8' high.  Much better separating the listening room and storage room.

Indefinitely for all practical purposes as long as you: (1) keep the record and stylus clean, (2) don't play it with a worn stylus, (3) and keep tracking force low (2 grams or preferably less).  Records I purchased in 1967 and played with a spherical Pickering cartridge in a Garrard record changer still sound pretty good  (which tracked closer to 3 grams a bit too heavy) when played back with today's more sophisticated tip geometries, especially because they ride in a different part of the groove than the old spherical tip.  Records I purchased from 1978 on and played with a Shure V15 types III, IV, or V with elliptical or micro ridge tips sound as good as ever with my latest Jasco stylus or with my latest Shure M97xE.  The effective tracking force with the Shure V15's was 1 gram.  I'm sure that some of my favorites were played many hundreds of times.  Not only that, until around 2000 I played them on a  Techniques SL 1650 record changer in auto that I purchased in 1978 and still use today.  Yes, I stacked 6 records at a time for over 20 years and never had a record degrade.  Now, since the changer function has stopped working, I use the same turntable as a semi-automatic.