Harbeths are coherent and natural. The majority of people do not listen to the acoustic music they are made for . Simple .
The Harbeth phenomenon
In my search for a new pair of speakers, I've gone through many threads here and noticed that many owners or fans of Harbeth have almost a love-like connection with Harbeth speakers. It is almost as if the speakers cast a spell upon them. I know many audiophiles love their speakers but Harbeth owners seem especially enamored with theirs. I am extremely puzzled by this phenomenon because on paper Harbeth speakers look average at best and lack many of the attributes that generally make a great speaker.
Their sensitivity of generally around the 86dB mark makes them rather inefficient and therefore, at least in theory, not a good match for many lower powered tube amps, or any amps below 100wpc. Their frequency range is simply inferior to most high-end speakers since they don't go below 40 Hz. This alone should, again at least in theory, disqualify Harbeth speakers from consideration as top high end speakers. And yet I've never heard anyone complain about their bass, while people complain about lack of bass in the Gibbon Nines from DeVore, which is a fantastic speaker. Their cabinets look like a cheap DIY enclosure (disclaimer: I've never seen a Harbeth up close, only pictures). The 7ES-3 is rated B-Restricted, while the smaller and cheaper Usher Be-718 A-Restricted in Stereophile but garners nowhere near the same amount of admiration, praise and following among audiophiles.
So what's going on here? Is this a big conspiracy plot by the company that paid off a few hundred of people to infiltrate audiophile internet forums and a few reviewers? I am of course joking here, but the question is serious. How can speakers so average on paper be so good in real life? I know the opposite is often true, but you rarely see this phenomenon.
Please speak up.
Their sensitivity of generally around the 86dB mark makes them rather inefficient and therefore, at least in theory, not a good match for many lower powered tube amps, or any amps below 100wpc. Their frequency range is simply inferior to most high-end speakers since they don't go below 40 Hz. This alone should, again at least in theory, disqualify Harbeth speakers from consideration as top high end speakers. And yet I've never heard anyone complain about their bass, while people complain about lack of bass in the Gibbon Nines from DeVore, which is a fantastic speaker. Their cabinets look like a cheap DIY enclosure (disclaimer: I've never seen a Harbeth up close, only pictures). The 7ES-3 is rated B-Restricted, while the smaller and cheaper Usher Be-718 A-Restricted in Stereophile but garners nowhere near the same amount of admiration, praise and following among audiophiles.
So what's going on here? Is this a big conspiracy plot by the company that paid off a few hundred of people to infiltrate audiophile internet forums and a few reviewers? I am of course joking here, but the question is serious. How can speakers so average on paper be so good in real life? I know the opposite is often true, but you rarely see this phenomenon.
Please speak up.
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I have the Harbeth C7es3 which I bought precisely for the reputation of low fatigue. On average I find they are not optimal for electronic music (and I am pursuing a second set of speakers that will optimize for that style) but I find that they work very well as stereo AV speakers for almost everything except heavy bass effects (I’m not an explosion junkie so ok to make the compromise) but for a well recorded soundtrack (voices, ambient sounds and music) they create a very natural, coherent and compelling backdrop even if they do not shake the room. |
I found an exciting compromise myself. Took on trial, a pair of JBL 4429’s to replace a litany of uber expensive speakers that all inevitably left me cold. The 4429’s give me a nice full sound, filled with dynamic drive and extension without harshness or compression. They shine particularly well on live recordings, exhibiting all of the attributes that make this hobby thrilling! |
I’ve been to several thousand live classical concerts in the last 50+ years . I heard some Harbeths at a dealer friend of mine and they sounded like you said . I had him switch from a 135 watts a side amp to a 400 a side one, they moved to a live concert . I never met a real audiophile myself that bought inoffensive etc speakers .Perhaps the crowd I hang with . Obviously you have no problem accepting others decisions , just has to be one you agree with . |
I as well attend live concerts, mostly classical. Been through many systems over the years...ridiculous amounts of money! There are many paths to satisfaction, various priorities and expectations. My current humble system delivers one of the most accurate and dynamic presentations I have heard. There is no BEST...just “variations on a theme!” BTW, my 4429’s are of the Synthesis lineage. They are much appreciated in the Far East, home of many exotic musical contraptions. For me, coming from a musicians perspective, if a system can not faithfully reproduce live music, it is of little value. |
I agree and have been down the same path . JBL’s just poped to mind , The "elevator crowd" is generally a slur on the elderly which I don’t appreciate .IMO it has to be un-amplified music but perhaps not .My route is the power one mainly as a matter of money and I’m positive that Harbeths can do what can be done with symphonic music but it takes power . A symphony has ten times the dynamic range of a rock concert , takes lots of power or a a lot of efficiency .An EE Prof at Wisconsin showed me Maggies need 400 to really sing as a min in his lab .. |
Hey jtg82, So glad to hear from you and, that you are still enjoying the M30s! It was great meeting you (10+ years ago) and hanging out one evening listening to some good music over an audition. Interestingly, I went back to Harbeths (the super HL5) in 2012 after moving away from the east coast; that move kinda forced me to sell my Verity Parsifals as I did not have the flight cases (aghh!) On balance, the Harbeths do so much right when comes to tone, timbre and musicality. This past year I stepped in the world of SET amplification with Devore 0/96s. Anyway, I could easily with live with any of the above speaker options. They share many common traits. happy listening! |
Good OTL's are astonishing in the way they deliver a lively, immediate and vibrant sound. But, as Jsautter mentioned, most require a speaker with a high and/or flat impedance curve because the output impedance of these amps are high (the only way to reduce the output impedance of an amp without a transformer is to parallel in more output tubes). The other issue is that there are so few available that one has limited options in terms of voicing. I like the Atmasphere amps, but, they are on the somewhat lean side, so they may not voice properly (for my taste) with speakers that are on the leaner side. For example, the Devore O/93 or O/96 are on the warmer side and they do tend to be a bit sluggish sounding so the M-60 might be an ideal combination. Would that be the case with the Devore Gibbons (a leaner sounding speaker)? Who knows, one just has to try the combination. |
I am a recent Harbeth convert(M30.1) & anyone who checks my past threads & replies will see I am no easy mark.I am frugal,believe highly in the laws of diminishing returns as well as Trickle Down Tech and value a highly organic,natural tone.I have owned highly regarded speakers from Sonus Faber,Dynaudio,Vandersteen,Fritz,Dali,Nola and many others as well as demo’ing units costing up to $100,000.00+... While I do listen to some elevator music(very late & very early hours)I am also an old rocker.Musical taste runs pretty much to every genre except maybe rap/hip hop & most country & I have NEVER in my life had this high a level of sound reproduction in my home!!!Anyone who listens to Harbeth and doesn’t hear an electrostatic clarity and to die for tone either needs his ears cleaned or the playback system checked! |
"Anyone who listens to Harbeth and doesn’t hear an electrostatic clarity and to die for tone either needs his ears cleaned or the playback system checked!" Nice...freediver- May I ask what amp you use. My winding road has featured Thiel, Mirage, Wilson, Avalon, Verity, Kharma Eggleston, Vandersteen 5A, DeVore Nine, DeVore 96, Altec Valencia (Werner crossover).....Favorites of the above: Verity, 96, Altec.... Would like to hear Vandy CT. I have owned, and enjoyed Harbeth P3's. |
Our local music club met at one of our member's homes last night and we listened to his Harbeths. We started off with the p3esr and spent most of the evening listening to the Super HL5plus which were supplemented by high end JL Audio and Rel subs (I don't remember which models). It was one of the best sounding systems I've heard and I can see why people fall in love with them. |
In one post dave_b stated "There are many paths to satisfaction, various priorities and expectations." And in another he states "
If you can’t energize a room with lifelike sound levels and maintain low
distortion/low compression then a table top radio will do!"Surely there are many "paths to satisfaction" between the two extremes. |
Sorry Valinar...forgot the IMHO!! Did not mean to cast that net over anyone else. I did go to my dealer to listen to the H40.1’s. They are very good, smooth and clear with great tone (Macintosh gear). My original thoughts were still validated however. They just dont allow enough energy to come through, especially at higher volume levels. Perhaps another room, diffèrent cables or electronics? |
No problem at all dave_b. As a past owner of Compact 7es3 and m30.1, and presently own SHL 5+ 40th anniversary and P3esr 40th anniversary I tend to agree with your characterization of them at higher volumes (although contrary to Alan Shaw’s advice I use an integrated amp rated at 70 W/8ohm). My wife and are season ticket holders to the Illinois Symphony Orchestra and I sometimes slip into musing about recreating the dynamics and scale of the music at home while listening live at the hall. I know better. However I find daily delight listening at home in the living room to the SHL 5s driven by my LFD NCSE MK2+, rarely past 80db. Cheers |
Hearing the real thing is always humbling. I used to be a drummer, so I have that “live” sound engrained in my DNA! Dynamics, clarity and an uncompressed sense of ease are first and foremost with me...tone and texture also must ring true. We all want to hear what will satisfy our expectations. Audiophiles tend to have “Great Expectations “, wherein lies our torment and our bliss. Reconciling our desires with reality is the razors edge upon which we dance. Keep dancing 🕺 |
@actusreus I owned a pair of Harbeth 30.1 for 2 years, I fed them with 150watt/channel solid state amplifer. I have to admit that the mid-range is very very pleasant , absolutely non-fatiguing. However, 30.1s tends to put a "Harbeth signature" on every records. I mean 30.1s makes all songs have the same pleasant signature. If I listened for a long time, it’s very easy to get bored. A big issue with 30.1s is bass section. In my setup, I found they failed to reproduce the texture and strength of plucking in double bass when listen to jazz. Other problems I don’t want to go into details are small sound stage, slow speed and amp-unfriendly. A good thing about Harbeth 30.1 (and other Harbeths, I guess) is when you buy a used Harbeth pair, then you decide to sell them in 1-2 years, they can keep the value (in dollars) extremely well. I guess because Harbeth name is so famou in US. Everyone is willing to buy it without audition on used market. In my case, I was lucky to make $150 profit after selling them (since I bought the pair from Germany, where Harbeth speakers are much cheaper than in US). Devore Nines is the pair I bought after selling 30.1. Nines don’t sound as pleasant as Harbeth but still non-fatiguing and very enjoyable. In short, they solve all the problem I have with 30.1s. They have their sound signature but not as strong as Harbeth. To me, Devore Nines do a great job in balancing details and musicality. In conclusion, if you are going to buy Harbeth, please audition (the same for Devore and other brands). Best, Huy. |
Huy, Thank you for posting this. I have never owned Harbeths so have never heard them in my rooms, but I found the models which I have heard all shared this same "pleasantness". So based on my experience these speakers are not natural nor are they accurate but rather they are pleasing and very forgiving to the program material. |
My experience with the Harbeths in terms of soundstaging/imaging is that they seem to achieve a large soundstage in a large room, but could not in my smaller 13' x 15' room. (I had the SuperHL5Plus). I've had tons of different speakers in my room and love a speaker that can do great soundstaging/imaging, and I've never had any problem achieving expansive soundstages. But the Harbeths consistently had a somewhat foreshortened depth and width. They "disappeared" nicely and imaged far better than their looks would imply, so I think they do great imaging generally speaking. However, when I hear the same Harbeths in the very large, open showroom floors of a local hi-fi store, they can sound much more expansive. In fact, last time I heard the SuperHL5plus it was in a very large show room, with subwoofers, and the speakers spaced quite far apart. The soundstage was absolutely massive, with very nice depth. |
@actusreus It's fun to see that this thread had been 10 yrs! I wonder if the original poster had an opportunity to audition or own harbeth speakers, and would love to hear his thought. For my experience, I pulled the trigger of a used pair of SuperHL5plus and PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP tube integrated amp 1yr ago. The Harbeth showed its merits just like it's known. I listen to mostly vocal music in genres of, blues, soul, r&b, jazz, country, opera, classic, sometimes, rock and dance, and the Harbeth driven by tube amp was soooooo seductive in my small listening room (11x10 feet). I am enjoying my music ever since. However, it's definitely not perfect, compared to my Focal Stellia headphone, the bass doesn't go super low, and it lacks some minute bass texture, and is not as detail as the Stellia. Don't get me wrong. SHL5plus has sufficiently satisfying bass to my taste and is quite transparent and reproduces details. I am comparing to one of the best high-end headphone, which is known to be the best in detail retrieval and amazing bass) |
I have heard all of the Harbeth models. They have a family sound that is extremely attractive. Warmth is a word that comes to mind with these speakers...which, although something of a dirty word these days in high end, is where I believe a lot of gear fails. Without a certain warmth, I think there is something missing when we try and compare the sound of live instruments to what we hear in our listening rooms. Some will say we need neutral, which is fine, except most gear these days really is not neutral, instead it tends to be hyped and etched, IME. Harbeths are not for folks looking for the ultra resolving speaker that portrays every little detail and can err on the side of brightness. Instead, imho, they are quite realistic to what a lot of us hear when we attend a live event...just in a much smaller scale. If I didn’t already own a speaker that I think can do the Palpability trick so well, these would be on my short list...making sure the room is taken into consideration in regards to the model. |
I will love Harbeth…. I always had British speakers...I lived 30 years with the Tannoy Dual Gold...Now I lived with the Mission Cyrus 781...They are very different speakers, the Tannoy being potentially the more sophisticated but needing some more fine tuning in the higher frequencies... The Mission being smaller needed also some fine tuning in the bass frequencies...The 2 sound natural and warm... Warm but very detailed with surprizing bass( I never connected for more than one hour the sub-woofer I bought for the Mission which I no more needed after the fine tuning,I dont like trembling walls) Now i am afraid to upgrade to anything, except Harbeth but I am not even sure and the increased in price will be very uphill compared to Mission used ( 30 bucks) :) But never mind the speakers, 80 % of S.Q. comes from anything except the speakers: the 4 controlled embeddings being acoustical (passive and active) the mechanical (resonance) and the electrical house grid....Alas! Not most " audiophiles" know it really, and usual listeners dont know it at all... Then whatever the speakers.... |
I own a pair of 30,1 and I liked their tonal accuracy and staging, I listen to a very large variety of music at live volumes and yes they are very tough to drive at these high levels in particular... I added a pair on JL E110 to complement, made a huge difference for stage and room dimensions and to recreate live experience. I also owns pair of Magico V3 on my main system and they are in another league altogether (price wise too) I would suggest tube preamp and SS amp to people interested in buying Harbeth 30,1 even more so if they use a digital source as their main source, they can be clinical and dry with revealing DAC combined with poor recordings... Although I like my Harbeth I do not qualify as a dye hard fan, so many good products out there, musical preference will affect your choice |
Boxy Harbeth is very old school looking and not nearly as much competition there as in other newer designs. . I think that is part of it I’ve heard the latest 40.2 model in a very good dealer setup and liked the sound and looks but would be hard pressed to go for the asking price. Not to say I would not at least consider it. |
big_greg Sorry, I edited my post. The UK price from two retailers is 3700 pounds. Don't know how negotiable they are, but that is a decent gap. |
depending on the model and tax added (UK tax already in the price) in the US harbeths do seem considerably more damaging on the pocket, to be expected to some degree, the P3 and compact 7 seem for some reason to be less inflated than the 30 and 5. There are other variables no doubt but the upcoming prices on the XD line make me wonder how competitive they can be vs. other speakers. |
harbeths are very balanced, very listenable and coherent top to bottom, have great midrange and very good highs and lows ... it is a speaker that may not impress immediately but has enduring qualities both in looks and sound it is true that speakers of this nature, harbeths, spendors, the like have a bit of a tendency to homogenize the sound, but that is both a plus and a minus - i also really love proacs, they have a brighter ’clearer’ more open, noticeably edgier sound, but they wear out my ears sooner, esp, with solid state amplification qualities that make you say ’wow’ when first hearing a speaker are often the same traits that makes you grow tired of it over time, listening for many hours or repeatedly over time |
jjss49, Excellent post. I think listening to loudspeakers can be a bit like listening to people. Sometimes those you find immediately impressive can later turn out annoying, and sometimes the opposite can happen if you're patient enough. As for innumerous glowing reviews, my guess is they are probably quite relaxing for reviewers in comparison to other designs which may have a touch of the tiring shouty 'me too! element' I've only heard the SLH5s but there was an immediate lack of excitement or a Wow! element. There was nothing immediately impressive about them. I think Alan Shaw once wrote that a Harbeth loudspeaker can be likeneded to a watercolour painting as opposed to a comparitvely garish pastel print. For successful long term relationships it must be a balance between excitement and comfort. Maybe, for some, Harbeths do this the best. |
