I just heard the Isis and loved it too. I have listened to the XLF in two different rooms that were all top of the line Boulder and DCS, but they didn't' connect with me. There are a few lines that I really have enjoyed recently. The new Proac line is awesome. Very sweet mids and highs. Not clean like VAndys, but an engaging speaker that I could own and be happy with for years. The Avalon line is great too, but distribution channels have dried up and the company doesn't seem to be what they used to be, so it would scare me off a bit. Dynaudio higher end speakers that I've heard are also pretty amazing. Very musical.
In the end, I just validated the fact that the VAndy line is clean, fast and has highly accurate bass in all their speakers. Those carbon tweeters make such an amazing difference from the mids up (My Treo's are the older ones and I wish I had the CT's, lol). I am able to emotionally connect with VAndys, Proacs, Dynaudio adn even the Rockports. Any speaker needs proper room and set up though. All too often I've been hearing speakers like Magico and Wilson's that I COULD like, but they have sounded so different with the same electronics in different shops or homes. I fully understand why folks love them like I love the other lines. I get it, but they just aren't for me. There are only a couple of higher end speakers I'd purchase if I had the money as my room is tricky. Vandersteen's Treo CT's on up are the way I'd go again. When they are set up with the Ayre Twenty gear or Boulder or Audio Research or Aesthetix (all the electronics I've listened to them with) they just do most everything correctly. I have even listened to the D'agastino line on a couple of speakers and they too sound ok, but I can't see why they cost so much other than an amazing case and his name. They don't open up like the aforementioned amps.
DCS and Empirical Audio have been the best DAC's I've listened to (I own the Empirical Audio OSDE/SE). When listening to the highest of end speakers I have heard amazing differences in DAC's to, but that's for another thread. |
10-08-15: Trcnetmsncom
No doubt about it ... Avalon Isis That is a great loudspeaker. |
Acapella High Violoncello II loudspeaker w/ Einstein Electronics |
PMC Fact.8..
With SPec integrate and Music fidelity CDP..
the combination was clean, clear, tons of details, the total presentation was smooth and it can happen only when the total system has synergy.. |
Raidho D5 on all soulutions electronics. Best ever. I left the listening room in a stupor. The late great Dave Baskin put that great combination together and he almost had to put me out because it sounded so good I didn't want to leave his house. |
No doubt about it ... Avalon Isis |
Oblgny what price range are you talking about? |
In my price range...
Thiels
Magnepans
Von Schweikert |
Oh yeah Duane will always be in the loop for all my audio needs. |
09-28-15: Jughead
That he is, and he drinks all my good beer too. LOL! That is his standard fee. Talk to him (or Dale) about room treatments or design elements for your future sound room.... |
I would like to work on room acoustics next but me and my wife are looking into another home, and my present room has to many obstacles. my next house will be based a little on can I treat the room? look for a house that my speakers are comfortable in. crazy ain't it? |
That he is, and he drinks all my good beer too. LOL! |
Nice. It does not hurt to have Duane in your court for setup. He is the master.... |
I'm having great success running a Musical Design t100 amp and the spl preamp, and a pair of REL t9 subs. I have also added a Shunyata ps8 and one of dales entry level interconnects and saving for the Mosaic speaker cable. and yeah these speakers sound like no other speaker I have ever heard every time I listen my jaw hits the floor. |
Jughead, the Summits will compete with most of the speakers referenced on this thread when properly setup and with appropriate ancillary equipment. Dale spends an inordinate amount of time on mechanical and electrical grounding schemes in his speakers, and you can hear it. He said those two elements are far more important than Gucci drivers and parts. They make most other speakers "sound like speakers" with their disembodied and ethereal sound. Its the sound of no speaker. Enjoy.... |
Yeah they can be a scary speaker to have with young ones around. I'm fortunate enough to have them in the basement and my 8yr old doesn't like it down there. and man are they heavy speakers, but the sound is man I cant explain it. UNREAL! |
09-27-15: Jughead
Just bought a pair of Intuitive Design Gamma Summits and these speakers are so amazing I will never get rid of them. Good for you Jughead. I used to own the Summits, and they are exceptional speakers. I sold them as I have young kids, and I did not want to have a 90 lb monitor that was mobile on Stillpoints.... |
Just bought a pair of Intuitive Design Gamma Summits and these speakers are so amazing I will never get rid of them. |
Wim1983
Love your suggestion on what music..
Here are the last 12 i listened to (one of the neat features of Naim unitiserve)
Alison Krauss - Paper Airplane
Cowboy Junkies - Rarities, B-Sides (listen to all but extra attention on last track may tell a bit about time and phase)
getz-Gilberto
L Cohen - Old Ideas
The Band - Music from Big Pink ( MFSL)
Ray Brown - Soular Energy
Wayfaring Strangers - Shifting Sands of Time
"Shorty Krall" - Live in Paris
Traffic - Shootout at Fantasy Factory
Wailin Jennys - Live at Maunch
Lyle Lovett - Pontiac
i dont have any Metal or Garbage, so I may need to get some... |
Ironically, Focal has a reputation just like Magico or Wilson for giving you a haircut with the wrong gear upstream. Depending on your perspective, that can be good and bad. Wilsons can sound great when mated with Lamm. I have heard Magicos sound very good with Plinius last year. The big Focals created a stir not too long ago with VTL. Its just like cooking....
That aside, very few "audiophile" grade speakers can rescue bad recordings. If that is your fair, get an iPod or a Sonos.... |
I completed my quest for a new set of speakers, a week ago received my new Focal Sopra No2's.
During my search, one audio salesman asked me if I prefer speakers which were "analytic" or ones that were "musical". He characterized the Wilson & Magico's as "analytic". Though I feel they make some fantastic products, I just couldn't listen to any of their models for very long before fatigue set in. I found the tweeters in the Wilson's were so "unforgiving" that when coupled with electronics that had any shrillness, I just couldn't listen to them for very long.
I found the highs and midrange in the Focal's to be the most detailed, and the bass to be tight and well integrated with the rest of the drivers. I'll still use sub woofers with these new speakers. I find that the tweeters in these speakers benefit from smooth sounding amplification, would probably be too shrill with some amps on the market.
These speakers have tremendous soundstage and when the music has a "large" sound, they sound much "larger" than anything I've auditioned.
I'm only a week into the break in period, but they already sound better!
Putting a smile on my face! |
09-22-15: Tomic601
how exactly Melbguy1 was my post defensive and boastful ?
what exactly is the garbage in my system ? If you're asking those questions, you're not ready for the answers.. |
how exactly Melbguy1 was my post defensive and boastful ?
what exactly is the garbage in my system ? |
Perhaps the title should change to what music do you listen to and what's the best forgiving speakers to cover almost all your music genre, this is more worthwhile to be put into discussion. |
Well put Agear. I've been around this hobby since '69 and have found most dealers can't set up a speaker to save their lives and/or a room. Most of the rooms do suck as they have to cram so many speakers in there. That's why I make sure to call ahead whenever I can to get them to set up the system in a room with nothing else when they can. Most can't and I think they lose business from folks who know what they are listening to. |
Intuitive Design Gamma Summits and their Mosaic's are the best speakers for me. not bright nor grainy and are so seamless. and with these speakers I have found every seat is a sweet spot. |
09-16-15: Tbg
Melbguy1, now with expensive cables and power cords, I think the notion of a balanced approach is nonsense. I have found that $20k worth of HFCables on an $1800 dac makes it sound like a $35,000 dac. Also isolation and better racks cannot be ignored.
Yes GiGo, but everything is critical for there to be the magic that we can now get. Tbg, I can't speak for HFC cables as I own Jorma Prime and Statement cables. I certainly agree top flight cables and isolation matter and have heard the benefits with my own ears. In fact, the first thing I invested in when I started to build my high end system was cables, so I don't disagree with your view. Though cables and isolation can only take you so far. Then you need to invest in a better amp and front end. I feel i've found the right balance in my system & am very happy with the results. |
"many a megabuck speaker held hostage by the room."
Totally agree with statement by Agear on MEGABUCK speaker. |
Without question the best speaker I ever heard was a beat up Altec coaxial. It was driven by a Western Electronic two 205 tube mono amp. If there had been two such amps, I would still have them today, I think. |
The room is an extension of your speaker, and many seasoned and wise philes have told me its 70% or more of the equation. Most of the speakers referenced are competent, but without proper setup and room engineering, they will suck. I have heard many a megabuck speaker held hostage by the room. The real problem is an industry one. It is easier to sell equipment than rooms. The longest threads on this forum are typically revolve around arguments about equipment. Sad and short sighted. |
Of course everything matters. I too have not heard a speaker that I like better than the Vandersteen 7's and I haven't even had a chance to hear the MK2's. I've heard them many times, in many systems in many rooms and they always sound the way I like music to sound...like music. There are a lot of speakers I have loved over the years, but none have moved me AND given me the fabric of the music, detail, pace, rhythem etc... as the Vandersteen. I will never be able to afford them, but I pushed things and got the Treo's.
That takes nothing away from Magico's or Wilsons or Harbeths or....Too many expensive speakers that get great props in the press just haven't moved me and I've heard most in many systems. That doesn't mean that many don't swear by those other speakers or brands. I just wish that more people would listen with products they own or can afford. Too many just buy stuff they read about or hear about in threads on the net (like this one) and make their choices without knowing what else is out there. I'm just back from a few weeks in Japan and I got to hear a ton of gear that I never get to hear in the states due to what I'm living, traveling etc... They certainly are listening differently that I listen, but that's cool too. I did get into portable audio while over there and got a pair of Noble Savants this week. I have yet to hear most of the iem's out there, but from what I did get to hear, I liked the Nobles a whole lot and I'm sure in a year from now I'll have these sold off and be looking for something else. I've already had folks who like JH audio better, give me a hard time. That's what I love about audio, there is always a great debate to be had.
Fun thread still |
Melbguy1, now with expensive cables and power cords, I think the notion of a balanced approach is nonsense. I have found that $20k worth of HFCables on an $1800 dac makes it sound like a $35,000 dac. Also isolation and better racks cannot be ignored.
Yes GiGo, but everything is critical for there to be the magic that we can now get. |
Roxy54, at the time that I had the Cello gear, they didn't have speakers. I heard the Stradivaris later but never owned them. I don't really recall what speakers I had with the Cellos. It may have been Duntech Sovereigns. |
The soundlab speakers driven by VTL electronics.For a fraction of what you can spend on speakers the way everything in a soundfield is reproduced is uncanny.They have a "spook" factor of 11 on a 1-10 scale.Imagine getting one of the greatest speakers for 10,000 to 15,000 dollars instead of 50,000 to 100,000.That's what you call a freaking steal. |
Focal SM9, it's on a totally different level compared to passive speakers. |
10-13-14: Electroslacker
Doesn’t the “best we’ve heard” depend heavily on when we heard it? When it is outside our control and comparison. When there is some sea change in our assumptions and perceptions where words fail us. For me, it was a pair of KLH Model 5’s driven by a stack of McIntosh tubes. I was just walking down the mall, passed by the storefront, and was captured by a tractor beam, unable to resist the pull. A similar experience came with Apogee Stages driven by the original VAC PA-90’s. I’m sure there were better, just as there are prettier girls, but love is a unique and wonderful response. Very well said..... |
08-03-15: Tomic601
7 MK 2 arrived, setup easy and tuned for room and THE sweet spot. I guess if I "listened differently" I could always turn on the rear firing 901 reflection tweeter...
Boomy bass ? 11 bands of EQ, variable Q and level built in...hmmmm..
Image height, gee Diana is like 7' tall on case of You..I suppose she could really be 10' but how will Elvis kiss her ?
Love Em....but I am into music, do not turn over my gear too much.. That was quite a defensive and boastful reply Tomic. Now here is an observation; your system is completely unbalanced and heavily tipped toward your speakers. I favor a balanced system approach with a commensurate investment in amplification, front end, cables, isolation and AC power. Your speakers are only as good as the rest of the chain; rubbish in, rubbish out. Have a good day... |
@Ctsooner, I like to sit and get moved as well, so when you listen to Magico S5's or newer models such as M Pro or Q7 Mk2 properly setup for synergy, you must be hearing something completely different to me. Each to their own as they say. Incidentally, I am not a fan of Wilson speakers either.
The Ayre 20th anniversary amps by all reports are outstanding amps, though they are not the only outstanding amps out there. I'd quite happily compare a Vitus SS-102 and SL-102 pre to that gear any day of the week, even the new SS-025 stereo amp. But I accept that is a matter of personal preference. |
Thanks Tom, I thought I was the only one on this board who didn't turn over gear monthly, lol. Glad you love them and that they were so easy to set up and enjoy. Have fun with them as I'm sure you will. I'll just read and be jealous, lol...Still hoping and praying I can eventually get the Quatro's.
The thing I love about this thread is how passionate everyone is over their fav speakers. That just shows how differently we all listen and that there is plenty of room for all types, sizes and prices of gear. Personally, I love listening to certain pieces when I read about them on the forums. That way I know which posters have similar likes and dislikes. |
7 MK 2 arrived, setup easy and tuned for room and THE sweet spot. I guess if I "listened differently" I could always turn on the rear firing 901 reflection tweeter...
Boomy bass ? 11 bands of EQ, variable Q and level built in...hmmmm..
Image height, gee Diana is like 7' tall on case of You..I suppose she could really be 10' but how will Elvis kiss her ?
Love Em....but I am into music, do not turn over my gear too much.. |
Bodhi, I heard them with tube gear at Overture. My buddy has the Q5's and uses all AR Ref gear and I just haven't connected to them. That's just me. I don't connect with most speakers out there. I listen for different things than many do. I have a local dealer who was carrying them years ago when they first started out and I didn't get them back then either, but again, I have plenty of friends who swear by them. That's nothing negative against them at all, just me. It's a nice looking and well built speaker. There were many parts of them that I liked a lot, but I had no connection and haven't with any of their models I've heard at dealers like Overture as well as friends houses over the years. Please don't take my post as a negative against Magico. They are highly accurate and I have found that's the part that most of the phase coherent speakers all seem to have. I have sat and listened to the highest end Wilson speakers over the years and I don't get them either, however they are very popular with many audiophiles. Nothing against them, just not for me.
Many don't get the Vandersteen line either and that's all good too. Those of us who do love them, seem to hear the same things. I like to sit and get moved. My Ayre Twenty gear is neither tubed nor SS in sound. To me (and many other's) they sound correct. I love many tube electronics and have owned CJ, AR, CAT, Quick over the years and have even wanted Jadis for the longest time, but now I only have SS other than my Aesthetix Rhea phono stage and eventually I"ll sell that and get a balanced SS phono pre as I run only balanced into my amps.
That's what makes audio so much fun. |
Cello's Performance mono amps (sometimes called the Red Eyes because of their red light in the front panel) put out 350 watts, I believe. Perhaps Mattmiller heard a system using multiple Performance amps; I seem to recall hearing something like that at Gene Pope's studio (Pope Music, which made some excellent CDs) in northern NJ years ago at an NJAS meeting. |
Tbg,
Weren't the speakers called Grand Stradivari? The amps were called Performance I think, but there were bigger and smaller ones. |
Mattmiller, I had all Cello components back then but not speakers. I agree with Roxy54, that my Cello amps nothing near that wattage. It was outstanding but the equalizer and fiddling with it drove me crazy. I put it all up for sale and had five buyers in 15 minutes. I sold it to the firstguy. |
Ctsooner, I have a solution to your problem with Magico speakers...try auditioning them with more emotional upstream gear like CJ Art/Gat or Vitus Sig Series and KS Emotion/Elation or Siltech Royal Sig series cables ;). Btw, the Magico S5's are both time and phase coherent according to Magico. And to my ears they are very coherent, well balanced and non-fatiguing which suggests their claim is true.
I agree 100% with your comments about audiophiles relying on notoriously sub-optimal show conditions to form a view about loudspeakers. That's why I am reserving my judgment on the Vandy 7's as I haven't heard them in a dedicated room, though anecdotally they can have boomy bass and an issue with sound stage height (depending on the room). Whilst the Vandys are known to have a narrow sweet spot (not that that's necessarily a bad thing. It depends on how you listen). My point being, with work and perseverance it is possible to make the 7's sound wonderful...in the same way as the S5's ;). |
Magico, like any other speaker, has their ardent followers. They do make highly accurate speaker, however I have never been able to warm up to them just like many other folks. I need to be emotionally attached to my music and there are very few for me that can do that. I'm not talking about euphonic distortion either as that grates on my from the first note.
Most of the speakers that have done it for me in all price classes have been first order crossovers and phase/time aligned speakers. They are accurate, clean, but most get the the soul of the music for ME. Folks don't need to agree with me and I'm not putting down anyone else's speakers as we all hear and want different things. I had listened to thousands of speakers that have been set up correctly and used with outstanding electronics. Many of them in the 100k plus range, but very few have grabbed me and made me sit and listen all day. There have been a few recently that I have really loved and only a couple haven't been first order crossovers, but they have all been time and phase correct.
I agree with all of you who say you can't tell much at a show. I can tell if the bones are there, but only if I listen in the proper seat with tweeters at the right level. It's not fair to any manufacturer to have posters go to shows and listen standing up or in the doorway or the back of the room and then go on boards and trash their products or even say anything about them. If a product gets best in show, there usually is a reason for it and the reviewers get to hear them without folks in the room and set up their best (or as best you can in a hotel room or two). This has been one of my pet peeves for years. As most know, I now have switched over to Vandersteen speakers as they move me. The whole line does at every price point. I wasn't even going to give them a sniff until a dealer in NJ made me listen to them even though I went into his store to purchase another line of speakers he carries. I heard both and also a third companies speakers. Once I heard the Vandy's, I was in heaven. I was moved, but the soundstage was better than my Proac's as was the detail and everything else I loved listening to. The all Tidal system is pretty darn great too. Very expensive, but honest in it's presentation and it's sold by a wonderful man in PA who loves his music and does a great job.
I remember driving down to New Haven, CT (20 minutes away) and hearing the first set up of the Cello gear at the factory (my ex was one of Mark's attorney's as I got to hear the gear when Tom was demoing it for a few before release). It was so different from anything else I had heard from anyone. I really liked it a lot back in the day. Mark never designed things, but he was such a master salesman. Temperamental to say the least, but he knew how to move gear. |
Mapman, you pretty much nailed it in your description of Magico's latest generation of speakers. Their transparency, resolution & linearity (accuracy) demand much of their owner as their 'honesty' means they will faithfully pass on shortcomings in upstream electronics and wire. And their potential means you're really short-changing yourself if you don't explore their potential with well-matched high end amps, front end, cables and isolation of equal caliber. And like a race car, synergy is very important to get the best out of these loudspeakers. If you accept that, they are wonderful transducers. |
What amps were the Cello speakers using? Even his biggest amps didn't have anything close to that power output, and the biggest speakers he made were not that inefficient. |
I heard a stereo back in the 80's, it consisted of all Cello (made by mark levenson) equipment and 2 huge Cello speakers with granite stands. It pumped out over 4,000 watts a side. Have not seen or heard anything like that since. |
The magicos I have heard set up well are in the top tier of systems I have heard in regards to overall sound quality. The down side is that you will pay a lot to get it. |
