Tekton Double Impacts

@bullitt5094  Terrific news!!! A November surprise. : )

@ozzy sorry man! I wish he wasn't this busy bug he is and that's good! Damn

@ozzy

Just a guess, but since it’s November it is only going to get worse as you get deeper into the month. Good Luck and my the schwartz be with you :)

Well I just called Tekton. It seems they have received my previous emails but have been too busy to respond.
Karma was unable to answer my questions. Maybe someday Eric will be able to call me back. If I sound irritated, I am.

ozzy

You know, people are talking about making the mid-bass better with the DIs, though it's the mid-bass that really separates the DIs from many other speakers, which just can't seem to get mid-bass right.

Of course, my DIs were made in September, I believe, so I don't think I would want to touch the woofers, or any of the other speakers. 

@bullitt5094 - that's great news.  Can't wait for your review of them. 

Just got a call from Tekton. My Ulfs are about to ship! Which is great since they'll be here and somewhat broken in when the family is here over Thanksgiving. Very good news today.

@hfaddict - I know, this is about as rowdy as it gets in here. 😂 

Corelli,

The mod would involve swapping the x-over (the disconnecting of all top drives) so it's pretty extensive. The ability to solder proficiently is the main requirement as tweeters can be heat comprised with solder in less than one second. 

They could be sent in for the mod too. 

Eric 
    

@jcaropo No I meant it! Haha it's doing better than some other threads are. 

Ah, sarcasm! Lol 😂

This has got to be one of the most polite and gentlemanly forums around. Good stuff. 

The woofer question is interesting. My speaker did not have the Alpha woofer, but a much deeper dimensionally and over one pound heavier woofer. For me, this is a personal taste thing. The woofer played the deepest notes when there, but bass above say 50-60 hertz seemed missing too much of the time. It seemed like a gap to my ears.

The Beta woofers are spec’d on paper to not go as low as the Eminence bass guitar woofer I think is being used. However, in cabinet performance is a diffferent thing. I did have a chance to A/B both drivers and found the Beta more musical with plenty of mid bass. I happened to find the deep bass satisfying also. Perhaps not quite as much deep bass foundation at times. Eric is right that the Beta has more mid bass. In fact so much so that I found adding some damping to the rear cab wall really helped tighten up things.

When I upgraded the in series cap to a film Mundorf, used thicker gauge wire (Duelund) and damped the back wall of the bass cavity, then the bass became tighter and even more pleasing.

Eric uses a very good stock woofer and frankly I would spend my money and time on the Mundorf and Mills parts along with great thicker gauge wire and back wall damping. For damping you can use acoustic foam egg crate style or even poly batting. Just cover the back up to the top most brace ( right below the upper array sub cabinet)  and be sure to leave the ports free and open.

Eric is also spot on in that I use DSP to boost bass from 20-40 hertz. Now I have plenty of beep bass and nice mid bass.

Great posts today.  Glad you are keeping in touch with our thread Eric.  I bought my DI's back early this year and verified I have an older crossover version.  So I do have interest in updating these at some time.  Maybe not to the degree/parts quality that Bill has done but I would like to incorporate the latest changes to this crossover.

Eric, it was good to hear you say what I suspected regarding the swapping of alpha for beta woofers.  Namely, the larger magnets afford more efficiency/heft in mid bass response at the expense of deep bass extension.  That is what I would have expected with my limited knowledge on speaker design basics.  (I recall someone stating there was "deeper" bass response with the betas.  I suspect they meant "more" bass in reality.)

Bill, I have read your post multiple times and looked at all your pics.  Your efforts here are really appreciated and I see myself taking on this project in steps.  Will start with the easy part--the woofer crossover and I will probably swap out the woofers.  In my room my DI's are very clean and a little more warmth in the midbass may be welcome.  I anticipate a pair of subs in the future so deep bass extension in not a concern.  I clearly will have questions for you in the future and thank you for any guidance you might provide.

"The cool thing that often gets overlooked on threads like this is we’re all passionate about audio - every one of us. We all have so much more in common than differences."

That is so TRUE, Eric.

Thanks Grannyring! Feel free to call to chat anytime too! The cool thing that often gets overlooked on threads like this is we’re all passionate about audio - every one of us. We all have so much more in common than differences.

   ...and I am working on adding a dedicated room in my basement first.

I'm full in with @mac48025 on this, too. Working the science of a dedicated room should do wonders. My only thing is, working on my dedicated room is talking FOREVER! - at least it feels that way. Of all things, the hold up is now the rug for the room. Without the rug, I can't match the colors for the walls. Without the wall color I can't match the color I need for some of the custom art panels.

I was hoping to be done by Christmas, but it doesn't look like it now. Boo! Hiss!

@grannyring  - I hear ya about the XOs. I mean, it HAS to sound better with upgrades all around. I'm not sure about replacing the woofers, but I'm certainly contemplating the internals in the near future.

I might consult with you. Is that cool?

@grannyring 
Ha! +1. I think the interest in these is incredible because the speakers are incredible!! 

Eric I wish I had your knowledge and skills as I greatly respect you as a designer. By the way that LOL statement in my last post was an error. I use voice activation on my phone not sure where that came from. Just wanted you to know that as I don’t want to disrespect you.

I like the fact that you come on here and discuss things with us openly. I like your attitude and open spirit. I enjoy your speakers. They are your speakers and all I am is some DIY Hobbyist that shares the same passion as you. Thank you for the kind words regarding my boards as that really means something to me coming from you.

Grannyring,

It's all good. Know I respect your thoughts/opinions. Your boards look fantastic too. 

Eric

@audioarchon

If this is right, essentially, the speakers would be corner loaded.  In such a setup I believe that you preferred a class D amp over a tube amp.

I do realize tube amps are less forgiving and much more particular in their set-up requirements. That said, members with better environments have sold-off all of their tube equipment after purchasing a class D amp. I can also assure you, the difference in the sound was significant enough where I sincerely believe, even with a perfect room, and all the stars aligned for the tube amp, I would have still chosen the class D. It sounded better with no correction. And if your point is that the class D controls the transducers better than a tube amp, which allows it more flexibility, then my point is made.  

@greg22lz,
It’s all good.

@mac48025,
I agree. And please share your experience with the SE’s when you receive them.

lol Eric, the 10 inch driver is but one small change in the list of many as you know. How do you know which woofers I had? These have also changed over the months as you know. The biggest improvements, yes improvements, came from wire and crossover parts upgrades. Most notable are improvements gained by replacing key position electrolytic caps with quality film caps. The list goes on from there. All these combined upgrades did in fact improve the sound of the speaker in key areas such as resolution, imaging, tonalily, refinement and everything else one would expect from better XO parts.

I did not improve your design, I simply improved the execution through much better quality parts, spacing the inductors further apart (they are too close together in the small cab space) , better wire, damping etc..,

These are things you would do if these sold for $6000. Wait, you do some of this in the SE.

Muzikmann,

I applaud you building a dedicated listening room first. I think you'll find it to be one of the best audio investments you can make. If done right it will provide an environment for all of your components to shine......especially speakers. Good luck with your build. 

I appreciate all of the information shared here and am more excited than ever to get my DI SE's as I feel they will the best possible sound from the DI while conforming to Eric's design intentions. Is it possible that they could be modded to better tailor my personal preferences? Maybe, but that's above my pay scale and I'd most likely do more harm than good! Listening to my DI's now I find it difficult to believe they could sound much better......until I hear something that sounds better and I'm hoping the SE's do just that. 

I very much appreciate all of Eric's time and passion in creating speakers I've been enjoying for over three years now ( from the Enzo's to the DI's and soon the DI SE's) and I can appreciate grannyring's and others desire to tailor their sound to their liking. No right or wrong, better or worse.....just differences in listening preferences. It's all good. 

@muzikmann.  I did not mean to come off against Bill in any way. I don't believe I did but Ido believe that a manufacturer has be consistent in their approach as does Bill. My guess was parts availability as well as sound tweaks that might be driving the differences in speakers. I purchased mine in September and I don't know what parts are in my speakers. If you read my posts you will see that I was basically on the same page as Bill.

@greg22lz,
But Bill was NOT putting down the DIs other than making people aware to accept other opinions regarding sound since there are variants of these speakers with different parts. Is that a bad thing for him to say? Most of us or posters on this thread are here because of a GOOD thing: great sounding speakers for less $$$. Does that mean some can’t pass on meaningful/useful information to others here or make constructive criticism about the speakers?

@tektondesign
Thanks for taking time to clarify things on this thread - it really helps!!  I do not own your speakers yet.  I am considering the SEs, and I am working on adding a dedicated room in my basement first.

@muzikmann.  The question was rhetorical, and I actually have not seen posts to this extent evaluating every aspect of a component builders' methods or reasoning! Have you? I think what I really see here is people love the DI's and are thinking about them in a deep way . Exciting, isn't it?

Wide-polar is for primarily the in-wall version of the Double Impact for home theater and the folks that want a wider off-axis polar response. Background music, room size, unable to toe-in the speaker are all examples of where the wider off-axis might be preferred.

Regarding all of the chatter about the mods being done on here. Every facet of this speaker was carefully thought through and it concerns me when people say how much they’ve "improved" upon the speaker. I’m not entirely on board with this. Especially, for the ones that do not have access to scientific equipment to show everyone exactly what they’ve done to the speaker.

For example, the swapping out of the 10" woofers... accurate simulations and measurements will prove one 'mod' spoken of on here will sacrifice extreme deep bass extension and yield higher mid-bass output. Therefore, the system is now something much different and some of the original ’spirit’ of the design is compromised. Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say the speakers are now different over claiming an outright improvement? Sound is subjective, and I have a hunch not everyone will like it. To be entirely fair... the DSP processing will clean everything up and from that angle about any 10" woofer off the shelf will fit the bill. The problem here is that some of us are pure analog and any changes here will be far more noticeable so extra care is needed when anything is changed.

It’s key to note: good loudspeaker design tends to be primarily about evaluating trade-off’s and what you can do with the sum-total of the parts. I could use the same aforementioned 10" driver in all Double Impacts produced, and have considered it. In my opinion, overall tonal balance, warmth and access to a bit more deep extension all directed me to go with the 10" driver we are using today.

In my professional opinion, it’s more appropriate to for those saying they’ve "successfully completed a ’mod’ to this design" to say they’ve changed the speaker dramatically over "dramatically improving" the speaker.

For those wanting more we have the DI SE. The speaker sounds fantastic and the ’spirit’ of the Double Impact design is intact. All transducers incorporate the biggest improvements possible with drives built to my requested specs; with cast frames for less flux leakage, a bigger motor, reversed venting and a rigid dust cap.

Musicmann, thanks for your comments, and yes... you’re speakers are sounding exactly as I intended them to and they should be sounding really good.

Eric Alexander - audio designer

@greg22lz
I am not sure if you understand grannyring's point.  He is only pointing out that people should expect to hear different sound opinions from others based on the frequent changes to parts on the DI speakers.  While you seem to have a problem with Bill's scrutiny, which came about because he chose to mod his, we should be grateful and lucky to know this, so that we don't blame people's upstream components so much like it has happened on this thread, when someone complains about what they hear with the DI's. 

For me, I just want this speaker manufacturer to succeed in that he is bringing stellar and affordable speakers to the market. However, I hope he takes this in a positive way, and perhaps allow more time on newer designs, and to settle on parts/ sound before launching them.

Very nice of you to come on the thread and answer the questions Eric. I am glad to hear that you have fine-tuned the speaker to exactly where you want it to be now.

I will just assume then that my late August set has pretty much the same design as the crossovers being made today and reflect where you have landed.

Thank you @tektondesign for your response. I wonder how many others have had to weather such scrutiny?

@grannyring  so, there is one part of the equation, outstripped the supply chain, which is absolutely common today in any business. Second, tweaking based on parts available AND sound changes combined. Makes sense to me. To reiterate, I do think the passion of TD and Eric Alexander is to fa exceed anybodys' expectations, which he has clearly done! Is there a "Brilliant Speaker Designer" award?

@tektondesign 

" We're also now producing the wide-polar response version that sounds fantastic."

Can you elaborate on this please?

Mapman,

Thanks for your input. I was about to ask if anyone heard them last weekend. These shows are sensory overload and spontaneous set-up (one day in advance) so I can see how you'd be left wanting with soundstage and imaging.  

Regarding the "tad warmer" comment I'd suggest that's from upstream gear not so much the speaker. 

Eric Alexander  

First: the Double Impact is a year old

Second: it's safe to say nothing like the overall look and design of the Double Impact has ever been done

Third: this is new art and we've implemented no fewer than 5 proprietary (patented) design elements into the Double Impact that I'm not aware of being done prior. 

For the record: any/all changes to the Double Impact design from serial #1 through today are the result of direct customer feedback, design improvements, and voicing improvements from focused listening sessions. The speaker is being driven with every type of amplifier imaginable and in home theaters. The speaker is spot-on, versatile and affordable. As the designer I can honestly state: the overall 'spirit' of the design has never been compromised and all Double Impacts produced have an overall comparable sonic signature. The speaker design has now been fully massaged, honed, and further refined since it's conception. The Double Impact design has been locked down for a while now and I see no need to change anything. We've also been forced to bounce around a bit with capacitors as we've purchased everything available so we've had to go hunting for quality substitutes. 

Also note: within reason we can add/match the upgrades to this speaker as some users have outlined here on Agon - it's no problem. Then, we produce SE model which is my personal statement on how to do this speaker without compromise.

We're also now producing the wide-polar response version that sounds fantastic. 

Anyone sitting on the fence about this speaker... now is the time to make the purchase. 

Eric Alexander - audio designer   

  

I spent a good amount of time listening to some flavor of upgraded Double Impacts at Cap AudioFest last weekend. Did not get the price but they were very enjoyable and well fed off the high quality 10 watt tube amp used. Thumbs up especially for those looking for a larger more efficient and tube amp friendly speaker offering good value.

Pros:

- sound was not thin or lacking in any way but had good detail off a mere 10 watt tube amp (a very good one though)
- soundstage and imaging were good however room was very small
- I remained drawn in and engaged with the music on a variety of tracks for a good while and wanted to hear more
- rhythm and drive was very good compared to many much smaller speakers I’ve heard in similar price range
- a lot of speaker for not that much by this show’s standards = good value

Cons:

- big and bulky. WAF?
- imaging and soundstage was good but in that small hotel room I could hear individual drivers. Would probably blend better in a larger room.
- sound was meaty and a tad warmer than many which could be a pro or con depending on personal preferences.

I really like my Pendragons,and,they do a lot of HT duty as well as just plain Jammin Out..someday I will get a pair of DI's by then I should be able to score a pair used for a great deal..

Yes, you can have differing values. In the cases I point out the change in values reflects a change in the frequencies handled by the drivers they feed. This change in frequencies handled will change the sound especially if all 6 outer ring tweets are playing higher frequencies than another set of DI speakers. This is what is happening depending on the set one has. All will sound good, but the presentation will certainly be different. Some will pick it up fast, others not. That is the world of audio.

Yes, few would pull apart a Magico 😟.  I would however......

Funny thing is that I doubt anybody would be pulling apart their Magico's and comparing notes. The other aspect is you CAN have different inductors and capacitors as your speaker wiring diagrams change, and I don't know the science behind it but Eric surely does!

I assume they do to. I agree 100%.  I would still buy from them as I love his spirit of innovation and product.  I do wish the design was more “finished” before intro however.  Again, I point this out so we know we will hear differences in our DIs.  While the sheer degree and amount of change makes me scratch my head, I don’t think it means the DI speaker is not a great speaker. It is a great speaker and one that is certainly evolving in a speedy fashion.  

I think I would assume the TD continually strives for excellence in his products! 

@grannyring - Ok, got it. If I had known that was going on I may not have purchased these speakers. That's why you pointing this out is so important.

Understood. These changes have nothing to do with price points, cap brands, or upgraded parts like wire and binding posts. Not a question of these things at all. Simply crossover design and wild differences in just a period on months. 1.5uf cap in series with the center tweet vs a cap more than 4x that value! 100uf cap in series with mid drivers vs. 220uf with same value inductor. Additional inductor on some outer tweets not found in other DI sets. All these things CHANGE the sound. Many, many more I won’t mention. Even wiring mids and woofers out of phase on some sets and not others. Trust me I can go on and on. Nothing here to do with price points. Just sharing our DI speakers sound different based on birthdate.  Mine are 08/17 DIs.  

For years, over years yes. But this much change in the initial intro months? Oh my. The builder has a passion to improve and refine so if substantial monthly changes are common without MK status changes, then we know it and refer to our DIs with birthday dates😊

@grannyring I jus spoke with a friend of mine who has worked on Bozac speakers for years and Bozac has a tweeter array as well. He said Bozac changed the inductors and capacitors as well as wiring sequence for years so I guess it is a common thing!

The basic $3000 DI is 4 ohms. What are the downsides of a 4 ohm speaker?
To purchase an 8 ohm DI is an additional ~$450. Why so much more?
Why so many variations of the DI? Kind of makes resale very tricky. Not being able to hear the DI's live puts resale (or return)  squarely on the table.
How does the DI compare to the Klipsch RF7 II or the B&W 683?
Is there any legitimate competition in this price range?
I am trying to read quickly through the 70+ pages of responses so bear with me if these questions are in any way redundant.