Tekton Double Impacts

Charles, yep agreed. 

Well, I didn’t even bother unpacking the second Vidar and sent it back to Schiit. 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms is WAY MORE than enough power. Especially when you factor in the gain from using the tube stage with Freya.

Vidar is dual mono back to the transformer. Power used by one channel does not affect power used by the other. So there really is no significant advantage to running two Vidar amps other than it is cool. The downsides to running two Vidar amps include more tube noise and less granularity in the volume control.

These speakers sound great and I haven’t even played around with room placement or toe-in yet. I can’t wait to hear how good they sound after 200 hours and I get them placed properly.

How much toe-in are you guys using?

Charles I have a layer of tubes in the Preamp I have on order. I am certainly going to keep an open mind.

Porscheracer,
For your bedtime reading you will have to read all 1,450 some posts to get your answer.

Alright, just kiddin.  Many of us have the central tweeter axis intersecting slightly behind our listening chair.
The DI's are forgiving on room placement.  I an big on sound stage so I have mine 1/3 out into the room and listen at the 2/3 mark from the front wall.
Have fun!

How much toe-in are you guys using?

None pointed straight ahead works best for me.

@porscheracer  Toe in similar to what @corelli stated.

4 feet from the front wall. 5 feet from the side walls, 8 feet apart. 8-9 feet to listening position (all measurements approximate).

Not surprised on your only needing one amp. Looking forward to hearing more about your impressions with the DIs and your system.

Porscheracer, 
Congratulations on acquiring the Double Impacts and please continue to post listening impressions as you fine tune your system.  It will only get better with additional hours is my belief. 
 
Bullitt, 
I don't doubt for a moment that you have an open mind. We all hopefully configure our audio systems in a manner that support the ultimate goal,  superb sound quality 😊
Charles 

To answer david_ten's question about the MZ2's output, David B told me the MZ2"s max output occurs at 3 ohms, and I can't remember if he said 1.3 or 1.7 watts, this is another contributing factor in how the MZ2 drives the DIs handily.

I will be taking my MZ2S to a good local friend that mainly rebuilds and upgrades vintage SS gear and he has all the equipment to measure output and distortion.We are also going to drive some vintage Jbl 220 speakers and also some Cornwalls and see how it does.

I'm very curious myself and would like to know.

Kenny.

audionoobie,
someone in NJ has a brand new pair of DI’s FS on the Emotiva Forum-

" How much toe-in are you guys using?"-porscheracer

I talked to Eric about toe-in yesterday; he says toe them in

so the Speaker axis crosses 2-4 feet behind the listeners head (so there is an illusion that the inside front and back edges of the speaker appear to be about 1" wide, if you can picture that). At a listening position 8 ft. in front of the speakers, the axis should meet 10-12 ft. from the speakers.

pawsman

In my room I found virtually no toe in to sound best. I only have my DI's 6' o.c. so that might lead to them not needing to be toe'd in. My listening position is 7.5' from the speakers and the speakers are about 5' out from the back wall and 4' in from the side walls. The DI's don't seem especially sensitive to room placement but fine tuning them and your listening position will pay definite dividends. In smaller rooms like mine room treatment played a bigger role in sound improvement than speaker position.....but both lead to better sound and we're all after that!

Well after realizing that I have not bought a pair of speakers since 1990, I bought Tekton yesterday. I went against this current and chose the Electrons, because of size and weight even with some assurances that the D.I.'s would work in my 11X15X8 dedicated. 

And now some breaking news!  Eric told me when ordering that the Electrons now come with 8" bass drivers, no longer the 6.5". O.K. not earth shaking but it is fairly new information.

I went into this purchase with the understanding that I wanted to match an amp purchase with the Tektons too, and with opinions of people on this forum who I respect with way, way more knowledge than myself had helped me to decide on a 2A3 SET amp. The general consensus of this type of amps presentation coincided with my musical taste extremely well.

So now I should live happily ever after (at least in my audio world) right?
Wrong, now I have a problem that I learned today (isn't it the way things so often seem to go?) that my line stage which I am completely satisfied with which is a Truth with no gain at all will-might compromise the performance of this set up. 

Thoughts and possible directions from this group will be greatly appreciated.

       LP

@lpretiring,
Have you listened to the Electrons in your system? Tektons are highly sensitive loudspeakers (at least from the specs on the site). You should have no problem driving these with your Truth. What is your "source"? I say this because even I have a passive and can easily drive my average sensitivity loudspeakers with the preamp.
What is your rest of the system?

Called Tekton today. Eric was tied-up painting, but Karma tells me it looks good for my DI SE units to be built next week. That's the good news. The bad news is, the non-SE DIs I have now are broken-in and are really sounding great. I almost hate to send them back! But I'm sure the SEs will be worth the temporary step backward.

Welcome milpai

Is this thread not suspicious anymore?

Yesterday you posted: " I have not heard the Tektons, but that huge thread and the same people recommending the speakers over and over again is making me suspicious."

Milpai,

I ordered the Electrons yesterday, so I feel it will be about 3 weeks before they arrive. In talking to Eric about my desire to use a 3.5 watt 2A3 SET he said it would be no problem, but I forgot to mention the no gain Truth I use. He is very busy and it was hard for me to remember everything I wanted to tell him when pressed for time.
Today I will talking to Triode Labs about possibly building an amp for me, and he mentioned a really good pre-amp with gain would be a better match for my set up.
I only listen to redbook c.d. with a Musical Fidelity A-5

     LP

Milpai,

To clarify here is the quote from his e mail today.

"The Truth-it will be alright, my 2A3 will provide most of its gain and drive...the Truth will only be work as a volume control in the most neutral/accurate way, because its a passive design and does not +/- to the sound. It is better than most active circuited pre-amp-again, most are mid fi stuff only....and there is rarely a real high end tube preamp out there on the market we seen. But with a good tube preamp-you will get more power, and juice out more info/details-everything/every aspect will be better...."

I took it to mean that because of the low power of the amp and no gain of the Truth that it's just not going to be as good a combo as I envisioned.
Maybe I should be looking for a more powerful tube amp to get the most from the Electrons?

    LP

Schiit Audio Freya is a nice tube preamp with gain. It also has a passive mode and a JFET mode. Check it out. I love mine.

I believe the Electrons are slightly less sensitive than the DI's. Not sure if that will be of significance or not. I personally would go with the LTA MZ2-S, which is probably the most popularly satisfying preamp on this thread. Especially if I had a 2A3 amp in mind. I believe that teajay favored this particular combo over all others that he tried.

Two excellent products based on word of mouth , the Truth and the M2Z-S. Given the "many" exceptionally positive comments on the M2Z-S it seems like this is about a sure a bet as one could probably find. There appears to be much evidence to suggest that it is a superb active line stage. It is a question of is the additional gain needed in your system.

Another option to consider the Truth with the LTA ZOTL 40 a 40 watt el 34 based amplifier. Or for very similar cost the Line Magnetic 508ia which is a 40 watt 805 tube SET with the passive Truth. Of course it depends on the total gain provided by the respective power amplifiers. 
Charles

In my existing system which is powered by a BEL 1001, 26db (1 volt=50 watts) gain and the Truth, driving my Spendor SP-1's 86.5db sensitivity the last thing I would say is it needs more gain, dynamics, openness, or authority. 

So is the concern to drive the Electrons properly primarily one of gain, or does the smallish power output of the 2A3 factor into the potential problem as well?

Can this even be answered with this level of information available?

My best laid plan was to build my new system around the Truth and now along with the Electrons.

     LP

 

@david_ten ,
Still is.
I was providing some advise on "passive preamps", which not many people use. So this was a helpful post. You have issues with helpful posts?

milpai

Still "is" what?

I asked you a simple question about a previous post. 

Did you see a question or response or any comment to the post you made here on 7/19?

I don't. Do you?

II woul get in touch with Triode Labs and ask them how much gain does the 2A3 SET provide (knowing your current amplifier has 26 db as a reference). With the much more sensitive Tekton speaker you may be perfectly fine using the Truth.
Charles

You may want to check to be sure the 2A3 will handle 4 ohms. It says 16 or 8 on their site and Eric doesn't like to build 8 ohm versions. He believes all his effort to build efficient speakers goes out the window with that version and if an amp won't handle 4 ohm, you need a different amp. His opinion, not mine.

Lpretiring, if the specs on the 2A3 amp you would be purchasing correspond to those of the 3.5 watt SET amp described in this Triode Lab datasheet (which is indicated as providing 4 ohm output taps), it can be calculated from the 3.5 watt power capability and the 500 mv specified sensitivity that the gain of the amp to the 4 ohm tap is about 17.5 db. The sensitivity of the Electron is spec’d at 95 db/2.83 volts/1 meter, which given its 4 ohm impedance corresponds to 92 db/1 watt/1 meter.

So assuming these specs and those on your existing speakers are reasonably accurate (which is not always the case) you would gain about 5.5 db due to the speaker change and lose about 8.5 db due to the amp change, for a net loss in gain of about 3 db. Not a great deal, which on a typical rotary volume control, viewed as the face of a clock, corresponds to less than 1 hour of rotation.

Also, while I haven’t looked into the specs of the Truth, the 100K input impedance that is indicated for the amp on the datasheet I linked to should be a fine match for most and probably almost all passive preamps.

Good luck as you proceed. Regards,
-- Al

Hi Bullitt,
Your conclusion/speculation regarding the 2A3 Triode Labs amplifier and Double Impact pairing is interesting and the polar opposite of what Teajay achieved  in his main/reviewing system ("best combination yet in his system "). Another poster who visited and hear Teajay’s system with this combination said that the sound was fantastic. Their comments were posted earlier in this thread.
Charles

P.S. to my previous post: If the following page corresponds to your Truth preamp, it has an active output stage which in terms of impedance should have no problem driving pretty much anything.

http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

@lpretiring : You may want to check with @almarg before proceeding. Edit: See that @almarg has already responded.

Charles,
Thank you for a path to begin to figure this out. I will find out the gain of the amp.

What I don't understand is the relation between the 3 factors of wattage-sensitivity-gain as it applies to the pre amp amp and speaker.

I understand in general that a more sensitive speaker requires less power to reach certain decibel levels but then how does the gain of the pre amp and amp factor in? 

Does anyone wonder how I could have been involved in this hobby since the late 60's and understand so little?

 Please don't answer that last comment.

Bullitt

Triode Labs as far as I know is custom made only. He will build with 4 ohms no problem. But again as far as I know, no auditions, no returns. Ouch!

   LP

   

Hi Al,
So although the Truth has an active output stage it’s still considered a passive preamplifier due to zero gain? Is this a "buffered" component?
Charles

Hi Charles,

IMO a preamp having an active output stage but providing no gain should not be referred to as a passive preamp, but as you know terminology is often applied with varying degrees of looseness.

And btw, I would infer from the page I linked to that it probably also has an active input stage.

Best regards,
-- Al

Hi Ipretiring, 
Gain is related to volume level potential.  The more sensitive your speakers (increasing db for a given output usually 1 watt@8 ohms) or sensitive the power amplifier  (the lower the value in volts the more sensitive). As sensitivity increases the "need" for gain decreases as it isn't required to obtain higher volume levels.  Al can explain it better 😊
Charles 

Hi Al,

I just want to mention one thing that's kind of bizarre about the Truth. The volume control only goes to about 2:00. Until you get to about 10:00 you hear almost nothing. At noon it's to low for real listening and then begins to accelerate. Everything happens between 1 and 2 o'clock.
Very sensitive from like 1:30 going up. With that being said I never maxed out the volume.
Not sure if this comment is of any value pertaining to your comment of losing about 1 hour of volume.
And thank you for the effort you had to put in to help.

   LP

Hey, I'm just repeating what I've read on the amp mfg web site and what Eric related to me. Didn't mean to cause ripple in the matrix.

@kdude66   Kenny, hows your LTA experiment progressing? :)

@bullitt5094  Neo is still the one. No worries.

Or is it MZ2S and Triode2A3 are the one... : )

No ripples Bullit just wanted you to know what others have actually heard with that specific amplifier and speaker match 😊
Charles 

Al,
I agree with you that the Truth isn't a passive in the strict sense of the term if it utilizes active circuitry. 
Charles 

I am interested as well, EXCEPT there is no midrange dedicated driver, its all tweeters?  why?

Hi Al, 

The amp you sent the specs on is the same MKII version but Triode told me the input impedance is 220K. They said they can make it 100K but it would hurt the bass.

The Truth recommends 100K or more if I remember right.

Will that be a benefit for volume or other performance factors with a higher input impedance?

Thanks,
   LP

Arcticdeth,

There are actually two sets of drivers handling the midrange. Only one of the tweeters is handling the highs, the other six handle the upper mids and there are two 6" drivers handling the lower mids. The DI's are exceptional at conveying midrange......and bass.....and highs ;)

Lpretiring, is the Truth that you have what is described on the page I linked to above?  If so, its very low output impedance would make any reasonable load impedance (i.e., amplifier input impedance) a non-issue.  Impedance compatibility issues, btw, if present may affect tonality, bass response, and other sonic characteristics, but would not affect volume levels to a significant degree.

In any event, aside from certain unusual circumstances higher amplifier input impedances are preferable to lower input impedances, so 220K should be fine.   

I'm not sure what to make of your characterization of the unusual action of the Truth's volume control.  But assuming as I said that the specs on everything are reasonably accurate you'll probably find that to achieve a given volume level with the new speakers and amp you would have to set the volume control higher than at present by an amount that with the present equipment would correspond to a small but readily noticeable volume increase.

Regarding your more general question about gain, sensitivity, and power, the gains of the preamp and power amp, the sensitivity of the speakers, and the output level of the source component will together determine the position of the volume control at which a desired volume level is reached.  Assuming, that is, that the desired volume level is obtainable without exceeding the amp's maximum power capability, or the power handling capability of the speaker. 

The power capability of the amp together with the sensitivity and other characteristics of the speaker and the room, as well as the listening distance, will determine the maximum listening volume that can be generated without the amplifier starting to clip and distort, as it starts to run out of power.  The setting of the volume control at which that maximum volume capability is reached will in turn depend on the gains, sensitivities, and source output level I referred to in the previous paragraph.

All that being said, in general the main concern I would have in using a 3.5 watt amp with 92 db/1 watt/1 meter speakers is not having enough power, rather than not having enough gain.  For me that combination would be a non-starter (see my two posts in this thread dated 7-17-2017), but depending on listening distance, preferred volume levels, room size, and the dynamic range of the recordings that are listened to I'd expect it would be suitable for many listeners.

Good luck.  Regards,
-- Al
 

articdeth,
to add to what mac said understand the 6 tweeter array extends far lower into the midrange  than you would ever guess.  That is one of this speakers key design elements

articdeth,

I am interested as well, EXCEPT there is no midrange dedicated driver, its all tweeters? why?

Because the 6 outer tweeters play down to 480hz,and the center tweeter is crossed over at 10k to 30k.The 2 6.5 inch midranges are crossed at 250 hz or maybe a little lower and play up to 2k,if I remember correctly from memory when I tested them.

The 2 10 inch woofers are low passed from 250 hz and the speaker has a in room measurement of 20hz in my listening room.

The tweeter array acts similar to a coaxial speaker but is much faster,more coherent,more delicate when the music calls for it,and obviously much lighter in mass.

This is where the magical sound from the DI's is coming from and Offcourse Eric's patented design.

Kenny.

David,

I do believe I have found my "Holy Grail" in preamp,which is the MZ2S.For pwr amps I'm torn between the Zotl 40 and the First watt sit2.

They both are that good giving a slightly different flavor and sonic presentation.

The F7 is good but not really that great.

More evaluation needed overall.

I will be testing the MZ2S on Friday for It's true pwr output and distortion specs.

Enquiring minds need to know.Lol.

Kenny.

Kenny,
When you changed out your woofers do you recall the exact mods you made to the crossover as far as component values of resistors, caps, etc.
Thanks

Enquiring minds do want to know, no argument there. It will be interesting to see your testing results Kenny.  It was a pleasure speaking with you on the phone yesterday.  You have a wealth of experience and knowledge my friend. You have owned and heard an array of excellent power amplifiers. 
Charles 

Hi Al,
Great back check to the 7-17 post.

I'm sure I fit into the don't utilize 105db peaks at my 6' seating positions. It sure would have been easier with all of this if I would have just choosen the D.I.'s. instead of the Electrons.

Several risks for me with this approach. But now I have a much clearer view of what's ahead.

Thanks again to Almarg and Charles 1 dad, two gentlemen who devote they're time to the benefit of others.

   LP