Tekton Double Impact & Comb Filtering

I too doubted the Tekton "hype". I purchased and put the DI on trial against my long loved B&W 804s in my home. The DIs were clearly superior at less than half the price. I now have the Ulfs on order from Eric. Some of us backup our first-hand testing and knowledge with investments in products that prove their worth. Some of us are just trollboys.

What I don't get is why Tekton is withholding the  frequency response graph of their speakers, so prospective customers can see how the speakers compare with their own, or with other brands.  

Zu Audio did the same thing as far as not releasing measurements. When reviewers started to release the measurements and they weren't favorable, folks who value objective measurements turned on Zu and began smearing their name.

If John Atkinson of Stereophile were to release poor measurements, then the Tekton's would be the high SPL equivalent of a Zu product. Some folks would feel duped while others would say that their ears are all that matters.    

Oh, wow, this is so true, I mean, B&W, Magico and Martin Logan all publish FR graphs !!! << face-palm >>

No, no they don’t. It is not common practice at all. What is with this continuing onslaught of FUD not to mention double standards being pushed for this brand? Sheesh.

Best,

E

John Atkinson did publish Tekton Measurements, this was the Enzo XL a few years back. I'd say we passed his tests and John had overall good things to say about the Enzo XL. And KEY to this dubious thread is no-comb-filtering reflected in John's measurements.  

Eric Alexander - audio designer

Once again, and for the record... why I choose to not publish measurements:

"I've discerned over the years, the biggest gripe the critical types have with me is my decision to not publish measurements and/or extremely detailed loudspeaker specs. This really sends the tweakers into orbit! I design and build 'audio engine's'. Roger Penski, an internal combustion racing engine master said: "If you say anything to anyone, it's like cutting your paycheck in half." I appreciate his sentiment and wisdom."

Eric Alexander - audio designer

I rather agree with Eric.

Also, this BS phase / comb filter issue is easy to test two ways

1. Play music. Sit in sweet spot. Stand up. Sound weird? No? No problem.

2. Play music. Walk across the sound field. Sound weird? No? Then no problem.

The basic FR measurements would not cover this. Off-axis measurements would, and all speakers have some of this. However had Eric really flubbed the tweeter array, it would be absolutely obvious to any listener. This isn't a hidden attribute only the best listeners could hear. ANYONE could hear it if present.

Best,

E

Two Erics agreeing, there must be some kind of good karma wrapped up in that. :)

As to the statement that no measurements are published, there are several published on each Tekton model, save one. Hey Eric, publish what you want, it’s your company. The Enzo XL, which Stereophile measured, went up to 6 decibels to the plus and minus, which adds up to a 12 decibel swing.

So one thing can be certainly said, those speakers will color the sound, and change the music from what the artist intended. And since Tekton withholds this spec from every single model, one can assume that all of their speakers color the sound. Not my cup of tea.

PS: B&W do indeed publish the frequency response, which is what I’m referring to. frequency range with - or + decibel range. So then I looked at the Martin Logan site. Same thing, they include the decibel range, not sure what point you’re trying to make, Eric S.

So one thing can be certainly said, those speakers will color the sound, and change the music from what the artist intended.

This is not necessarily a bad thing as one can argue that hifi is getting things better than the original recording. Of course that's a preference. 

It's common for some hifi brands to voice a rising response from 2-7k to give the speaker it's over detailed sound. The "I'm hearing things in the recording that I've never heard before" is a clue that you are listening to boosted speakers. A dip in the presence zone from 7-8k helps the speakers "disappear."

IMO, this is part of the fun of hifi. If we wanted super accurate speakers, we would be talking about our Genelec Studio monitors, which were probably used in the studio by the recording engineers. But these speakers are no fun to listen to...no extra sparkles, dips, or sweetness.

At the end of the day, the recording engineers go home and listen to the sweet lies of their hifi systems.  

213runnin

1) Your post said "frequency graph" and not range or response. So that is why some people said that you are wrong about other manufacturers posting graphs. 

2) You are wrong again. 
     Tekton does include frequency numbers on some of their speakers. As an example on one, the DI. 
+/- 1dbl 70hrz - 20krz. Range 20hrz - 30krz. 
On another it is +/- .05dbl with the same measurements. 
Yes, the +/- range below 70hrz is not stated. But I highly doubt it is not in an acceptable range. 

I think what Tekton is trying to stress is that these two speakers are ruler flat in the most critical areas. 

Also l must say that you either have an agenda or are trolling because you continue to mention the Stereophile review which is about A DIFFERENT MODEL. You continue to bad mouth the design and the build. But you have NO personal experience with them. 

Look, you're not entitled to SAVE everyone from themselves. 

Just my opinion. Except the measurements. 

This idea that measurements don’t matter is nonsense from people who don’t understand them. The best kits out there always measure well. Look at the measurements done by Soundstage network at the NRC. The THD measurements alone say a lot about how clean your speakers will sound trying to reproduce massed strings and such. But nobody wants to talk about that.
Then again if all you listen to is badly recorded rock, death metal and electronica, you don’t need to worry about measurements, Cerwin Vega type stuff will do nicely.

As far as I am concerned I believe that measurements do matter...to a point.
If measurements were all that mattered then tube amps and preamps could not compete with the SS versions as they do not measure as well. Also LPs would not compete with CDs or digital files. But I would never tell someone that prefers tube equipment or LPs that they are wrong and the measurements prove it. They like what they hear and that matters. It would be nice if all we had to do is look at how something measures to know how it sounds but audio is not an exact science as some believe it is. It is complex and we think we know all that can be known. Yet we continue to find that we do not.
Just a few years ago jitter did not matter...then jitter below a certain level did not matter...both proved wrong. There are plenty more depending how far back you want to go.
Of course if something measures very poorly then it most likely will sound poorly. But NO one here knows exactly how the DI or the Ulf, etc measure, yet. And the one speaker that the nay sayers mention, the Enzo, did not measure poorly and JA said so in his overview of the measurements that he did of the speaker. Yes, it had an issue here and there but nothing that would be considered bad. And other areas were very good. So you have to look at it overall. 

213runnin, don't you own Totem Rainmaker? Check the Stereophile measurements on them. The same 12 db swing in frequency response you are blasting Tekton for (-5/+7 db). Totem's specs state +/- 3 db, which are off by 100 percent. What good are those specs? Lots of really bad cabinet resonances too. I thought that kind of coloration wasn't your cup of tea. I have never heard Rainmaker so I can't comment on how it sounds, but the measurements do not look very good. But I have heard Arro, and liked them well enough for what they do. 
I am not a Tekton fanboy. I don't own any and have only heard the Pendragon when it was being hyped. They did some things I liked, but I would not buy them based on what I heard. Does that rule out the DI or Electron for me? Absolutely not. I would have to hear them first and decide from there. Too many people have said they are really, really good for me to dismiss them out of hand. I would certainly never disregard them based on a single audition of another model of the same brand. In the same vein, I would never dismiss them based on measurements of a different speaker. That would be foolish.

mr_m -- The problem with taking one report, and extrapolating it into an overall performance evaluation of a product - is that setup for speakers is important.  At times, it can require the entire room to be rearranged or treated acoustically as can be attested to by countless people who have had to put baffles, sonic treatment, etc. into a listening room for specific speaker / room interactions.

I had the experience of listening to Watt Puppy model 7's in a less than optimal setting.  If you sat in a single chair located at a specific point between the speakers the effect was three dimensional.  If you moved less than two-inches in any direction the sound went flat.  Should I extrapolate that to mean that the Watt Puppy speaker is no good and I should be wary of every buying a Wilson speaker?

Or, more rationally, should I acknowledge that the room and speaker placement were simply not optimally setup for Watt Puppy?

I think a more logical assumption about the Tekton speakers in ONE ROOM at a show is that the speaker placement in the room and room itself may be affecting the speaker's performance.

Well, well, well. It looks like comb filtering might not be a problem...it may just be the secret sauce!!!

If you are familiar with panels then you will know the sound of comb filtering. If you use a flanger or reverb on a guitar you will be familiar with the effect too.

It is hard to describe but comb filtering makes the sound seem to come from a wall of sound rather than a defined point and of course this would only happen in the upper treble with the Teckton DI design. It gives a bigger Soundstage. Large ribbons do this too.

Here is a demo - notice how the sound shrinks as comb filtering is removed (microphones close) and how it feels expansive (microphones apart). These effects are on recordings already but a speaker that naturally does this will add a bit of this characteristic to all music played through them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6JK721OpLko

It is hard to judge but the distance of about 9 inches separation on the video is the sort of enhancement you might expect with the DI. It is a very pleasant enhancement and no surprises it is used a lot in music production!

Here is another example of how comb filtering effects drum sounds (in this case the sound is bouncing off the ceiling and combining with the direct sound to produce a comb filter) In fact any two devices recording the same sound or producing the same sound will produce these effects if they are physically separated a greater distance than the audio wavelengths concerned)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4qgmY8jIGi0


 Report thisshadorne5,855 posts08-27-2017 6:42pmMore examples of comb filtering - hopefully you now know what to listen for - it is certainly not always a bad sound - quite often it is desirable in pop/rock and electronic music. The faux stereo effect is perhaps the most impressive demo on the link below

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zic2eNbxNmY

And when you buy your own pair you can tell us all about it.

Kenny.

You know... I really wished you all could grasp what I'm doing here. The clairvoyance going on here is crazy. Respectfully, comb-filtering was an element I carefully accounted for to avoid at all cost.

The "secret sauce" is the patent. That's it! Nothing else. Mitigate the moving mass and align things properly and the results speak for themselves. People are discerning the proper balance of harmonic content compered to the fundamental tones in their music.

Question: do you want to hear all of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club or just most of it?! If you want to hear it all were the only ones that can do it and we have the patent that proves it. I find it fascinating that audiophiles will spend over $10K for a DAC that is precise and accurate and they pipe it through loudspeakers that literally dumb it back down.

Let me reiterate... no loudspeaker in the history of audio has been designed like this and it doesn't take cluster of tweeters to accomplish it - stay tuned for more.

I was so excited about the design that I reached out to John Atkinson at Stereophile as soon as I was confident we had an amazing loudspeaker created. Sadly, I haven't received a reply from John to date.   

Eric Alexander - audio designer 

@seanheis1

Secret Sauce LOL

Nothing new about anything I mentioned - all this has been understood for 50 years and more. Most conventional loudspeaker designers go a long way to avoid comb filtering - careful driver placement and steep crossovers as well as time alignment of drivers - this is in pursuit of the most accurate portrayal of the source sound. However, companies like Zu and Tekton are defying convention and making designs that offer advantages for those who like a certain style of presentation. The same can be said for tube coloration - much of this coloration is already on the recordings but if you like more of it then get a tube amp and drive it a little into distortion and you get nice harmonics. If you really like the sound of phasing and flanging then a design that adds a little comb filtering will enhance your enjoyment of everything.

As a trick - if you have conventional speakers but suspect you like comb filtering then you can try placing the speakers right up against the side walls so the tweeter is within 3 to 9 inches of the wall.

I would expect the comb filtering on the Tekton DI to be quite subtle and modest - remember that this mostly effects the reflected sound (25 to 40% of the audible sound) as the drivers are all aligned when you listen from directly in front.

All I can say for now,
If you want to hear every little nuance and really hear into the inner detail of your recordings than a Tekton design might be your speaker.

Taking in consideration of the info that has been posted here on the comb filtering issue in the next few days I will wear my audiophile hat and do my best to sort this out.I'ts going to tough to keep that hat on because my system is so engaging in sonics and musicality though.

Kenny.

Sean,

You have so much to say about this and to the best of my knowledge you've never called nor have you made the purchase - the reason you started this thread. To the best of my knowledge you haven't auditioned the DI's either. I encourage everyone to call me directly over just making the online purchase. You also keep lumping me with ZU. Respectfully, I'm questioning your motives here. I think it's time that you make the purchase or move on. At the very least you should call me to discuss the nature of the design and loudspeaker fully. 

Zu and Tekton reside in Utah and that's it. We have ZERO in common with ZU - nothing.

Eric Alexander - audio designer
801-836-0764   

Mr. Eric, I have actually said very little. I have posted the opinions of others, who are much smarter than myself...they don't have the innate knowledge of your loudspeakers like you do...but they understand the math and physics stuff and don't appear to have any conflicts of interest. 

My definition of hifi is improving the original recording. If that means tubes, vinyl, multibit DAC, or a bit of comb filtering to get that feeling of being there in the presence of the music, then in my book that's a good thing. 

There are a lot more speakers that I want to listen to before making a decision, but yours are by far the most interesting and I like the custom colors. 

Much, much, too much nincompoopery here and it is not from Eric Alexander or kdude66. I need to stop reading this particular thread. Best, mikirob

Sounds good Sean.

Eric 

Geez, and all this time I've been thinking Peter Walker got it right with his Quad ESL back in 1957. Apparently not, as Eric Alexander now proclaims "If you want to hear it all were (sic) the only ones that can do it". Yeah, you and Trump.

213runnin, don’t you own Totem Rainmaker? Check the Stereophile measurements on them. The same 12 db swing in frequency response you are blasting Tekton for (-5/+7 db). Totem’s specs state +/- 3 db, which are off by 100 percent. What good are those specs? Lots of really bad cabinet resonances too. I thought that kind of coloration wasn’t your cup of tea. I have never heard Rainmaker so I can’t comment on how it sounds, but the measurements do not look very good. But I have heard Arro, and liked them well enough for what they do....

csmgolf, 2 things. First, that review is from 2004, and the Rainmakers have gone through some changes since then. Totem is both revered and hated for improving their speakers from time to time without so much as a "V2" in the upgraded speaker. So a measurement from 2004 is not going to be an accurate representation of the current sound. Also, the Rainmaker was specifically designed to have the "U" shaped frequency response that was first made popular in the 70’s, by a British speaker I believe. Either way, at least Totem put a decibel range on the frequency response, unlike Tekton.

Second, the Rainmaker is a 1200 speaker. At that price is it made in North America, the cabinets alone take 2 hours to complete. The parts are all from non China based manufacturers, as Totem is one of the few that tries to stand against all manufacturing ending up in China. So one will pay a premium for that stand. Bottom line, the Double Impact is a $3000 speaker, and shouldn’t have the same compromises WRT cabinet resonances and wider than usual frequency swings.

Look, buy what you want, and like what you want. But this over-the-top defensiveness for anything Tekton is silly. Personal attacks against me and my Rainmakers(I’ve owned about 15 different pairs of speakers in the last 3 years) is also silly. Just accept the fact that not everyone will love the speakers you love.

csmgolf was only pointing out that your rainmakers measure worse than the Enzo which is not even the speaker being discussed here.Totem's specs state +/- 3 db which is not even close to what Stereophile measured. I don't really see that as over the top defensiveness nor an attack against your rainmakers. He doesn't even own Tektons and said he didn't really care for the ones he did hear all that much. 

And the nincompoopery just keeps hitting the fan. Some folks are insufferable.

Mofo, the defensiveness and attacks I was referring to were coming from several posters, not just one. I’m sure CSM can answer for him or herself.  Miki, no one is forcing you to read a thing.

It's hard not to notice the similarities between this thread and the several on fuses. 

213runin, maybe some people are looking at it that you are being combative and attacking. Think about how you express your critic.

1) The thread is about the Tekton Double Impact. But YOU continue to refer to the measurements of the Enzo, a TOTALLY DIFFERENT speaker.

2) You continue to bash Tekton that they do not post +/- dB frequency response. But I have showed that they do in an earlier post.
Below is the current Raimaker (only use this one because you mentioned it as the one you have) frequency response.
  42 Hz - 20 kHz ± 3 dB
Now the one posted on Tekton for the DI.

20Hz-30kHz frequency response

Ultra-linear frequency response with ±1dB deviation from 70Hz-20kHz

Notice the 2nd bullet point? +/-1dB
Yes, it would be good to know what it is below 70Hz.

3) You take issue when someone takes your speaker, Rainmaker, measurements from an old review but yet you seem to have NO problem using the Enzo measurements vs the DI. 

4) You state that the Rainmaker is made in "North America". Why don't you just say Canada?
The Tekton is made in North America, the USA.
No offense to anyone here but we live in a WORLD economy so deal with it. Otherwise you better start walking everywhere because no matter what car you buy some of its parts are made in another country. And that is one example.
Hey, I have no problem if someone wants to buy and/or support American made or manufactured products. I do it, within reason. 

5) " (I’ve owned about 15 different pairs of speakers in the last 3 years) "
 REALLY?!? FIFTEEN!! In THREE years!!
That is FIVE speakers on average per year! About one speaker every 2.4 months. With setup time and tear down time and everything that goes with it that does not leave you with much time to truly evaluate them does it. Even a professional reviewer could never do justice to that many speakers in such a period of time.
I believe you, it just seems...well lets just say WHY. 
I am curious, did you try as many amps, preamps, DAC's etc?

6) You get all defensive and tell people to buy what they want and to like what they want and then add that that not everyone will love what they love.
That is what others have been trying to tell you.

And no one is forcing you to post.

213runnin,

uhh yeah you were directing it directly at csmgolf.  Did you read your own post? I get the feeling you have never been wrong! Must be a wonderful feeling being so enlightened. For you to spend so much time on Tekton threads runnin your mouth about things you know nothing about is very comical, ridiculous, and ignorant. 

Mofojo has it exactly right. I was just pointing out the irony of your posting. Clearly, that concept is far over your head. I don't know what makes you think that I am defending Tekton, I made that clear in my last post. I also said I would never buy a pair until I got to hear them and that I was not overly impressed with the pair I did get to hear. Not so hard to understand if you can comprehend English.
You can defend the measurements of the Rainmaker, but they are clearly worse than the Enzo. If you check Stereophile measurements often, you will note that most of the bass rise indicated in all of their measurements is caused by the way JA measures the speakers. He states this often in speaker measurement text explanations, even in the text of the Enzo measurements. IOW, most of the 6 db rise in the midbass can be discounted. So that leaves a regrettable, narrow band, notch at 2000 hertz. Other than that notch at 2k, the measured frequency response is not too bad, and JA says so at the end of the review. Take the midbass hump from the Rainmaker and they still measure poorly with a 12 db swing. BTW, the Enzo xl is a $2100 speaker, not $3000. You keep crossing models up. By your logic, no one should be Forest because Rainmaker measures poorly. Hey, I wasn't the one who said I couldn't live with a speaker that has a 12 db swing in frequency response because it was too colored, it was you. And guess what, you own one. Do you get the irony of your complaint yet?

Wow, how is it that grown adults can get into such a lather over some comments they don't agree with made by some complete stranger on the internet?  

here is Eric's patent on loudspeaker design. https://www.google.com/patents/US9247339

I am not in a lather at all, quite the contrary. I find you pretty humorous. Not in a flattering way to you though. 

213,
I am not at all surprised that you did not respond to csm's well written logical post.

here is Eric's patent on loudspeaker design.

Seanheis, what are your thoughts on that patent, I'm unfamiliar with some of that  legalese language.

Me too, so I asked a smart person what they thought and this is what they said: 

"Yikes, patents can be dreamy but this one is pretty out there.
The invention is predicated on (a) the relationship of transducer moving mass versus whatever is resonating in the instrument and (b) harmonics not being accurately reproducible in a traditional dynamic loudspeaker.

re a: String instruments and loudspeakers are damped entirely differently, it's not just moving mass. What does this say about brass instruments that don't have a moving mass?

re b: a dedicated "low-mass" driver specifically for overtones sounds novel. It sounds like the inventor wants to solve IMD but creating an overtone crossover capable of separating the orders of harmonics is likely impossible. Instead, a 4-way (or greater) network can be employed to push the overtones up an octave to the next driver anyways.
btw, Eric Alexander, the author of this patent is the designer for Tekton."

Yeah, it sounds pretty out there.  Talking about present drivers being unable to produce something called "the overtone spectra",   contained in music?  There are many that frequent live performances of all types of music that would vehemently disagree with this idea .

But I guess a guy's gotta make a living, and if you come up with some loudspeakers that look different, and you're a good salesman, well the sky's the limit in the USA.  It keeps reminding me of Bose.  I imagine when Tekton was starting out, they needed  investors, and of course would need more as the company expanded its lines.  No doubt those are around, pumping up the company in different ways.

Puke

I'm wandering if anybody knows if the big Ulf speaker will require 2 patent's because of the double tweeter array's.


Kenny.

Kenny, why don't you look into what patents were needed for the Bose 901 speaker, then report back?

I have but the 2 different speakers are like comparing apples to oranges when it comes to all that technical stuff.

I'm a open minded kind of guy and I'm being serious and I do my best to respect other people's opinions for the overall learning experience but I honestly don't see anything in common between the 2 completely different speakers other than that each have quite a few more drivers.

Kenny.

You have?  It doesn't sound like you have looked for how many patents the Bose 901 has.   I'm not saying there is or is not a single thing in common between the two speakers. 

I'm wondering how many patents the 901 had.

Why don't you look it up and you can tell us all about it?

Google is your friend.

Kenny, not sure why you brought up the Ulf speaker or how many patents it may have.  

Mofojo, are you all done with your puking?  Hope you're feeling better.

And I'm really curious how many investors Tekton has.  Are they pushing The owner to sell, sell sell!?  And what activities are they partaking of to pump up sales themselves?  Enquiring minds want to know!

213runnin, REALLY? Your "new" take is to call out Tekton because it has "investors" (and you have NO WAY OF KNOWING if they do or do not) and they MUST  be "partaking" in "activities" "to pump up sales themselves". 
Obviously everyone who praises Tekton are shilling for Tekton and must be an investor. 
I had to take myself off the floor from laughing so hard. Wait, please give me a minute, no, make that an hour...I am still laughing 😂. 

And even if Tekton had investors who cares other than you. 

Kenny brought up a very valid point and one I was also wondering about. This is a thread about Tekton after all. 

James, the multiple driver array reminds me of Bose.  It's something that they have in common.  It's just a visual thing.  If you want to learn more, you'll have to do it on your own, I'm afraid.

And hifial, me thinks you protest too loudly!  

213runnin, please, stop, you are making me laugh way too much.
The troll thinks I am protesting too loudly because I am calling him out, lol!
Why don't you stop leaving your troll droppings on this and other threads about Tekton.

I have NO financial or any other business interest with Tekton. I just find the impressions of the speaker of interest and also the design. Might I someday buy a pair? Yes, I might, but I could say the same about many other audio products.  

But full disclosure I am brand Ambassador for Sound Galleries and Taiko Audio. Just in case you want to hold or use that against me.