Technics SL 1200 GR

@prashanth14485 

What cart and phono you end up buying? 

westcoastaudiophile haha, i don't doubt it. I hope I can upgrade to the 1200G at some point. For now, I am totally blown away with the 1210 GR.

@prashanth14485 SL1200GR is like BMW with small motor.. go to SL1200G and enjoy the music! there are plenty of good carts to comply with SL1200G ARM. 

@lalitk haha.. I just set it up and played Dire Straits Brothers in Arms original master recording. Boy, I'm simply blown away.  So happy with the sound. Such a good recording. Thanks everyone for all the inputs.. my vinyl journey has just begun.. can't wait to try diff carts and see how much better they can sound.. cheers!

@prashanth14485

You’re a bad influence bud! I may buy this for shits and giggles :-)

https://youtu.be/V6o2G5N_R8w?si=os0qrP2VDWXIPson

Thanks for clarifying @kahlenz.  I'll keep in mind. I'm pretty sure it won't be long before I wanna upgrade the cart. Lol

Thanks @lalitk. I’ll check out the Parasound.

The AT cartridge will arrive today. I bought one that’s already installed to a head shell. Its supposed to be pre-aligned. My stylus gauge and protractor doesn’t arrive until tomorrow. Should I wait to make sure i have the accurate tracking force and alignment or trust the cartridge alignment and Technics tracking force knob?

@prashanth14485

Congratulations on SL1200. If you find Marantz phono inadequate, check out my recommendation on Parasound phono. This phono will drive pretty much any cart out there, I paired it Hana ML. 

https://parasound.com/products/zc-zphonoxrm

Any MM cart, including the Mofi MasterTracker and the AT540 will be fine (not optimal) with 39 kohms loading.  The Hana needs higher resistance to be optimal, but will work (it will be a bit constrained running into 100 ohms).  I would look into something like the Ortofon Quintet Blue MC for a better match and save some $$.  Look into better MC carts when you are ready to upgrade your phono pre (or just get the Hana, which is exceptional for the price, knowing you will eventually want to upgrade your phono pre).

Don't discount MM carts.  I love them!  Even the Ortofon 2M Red at $99 sounds great (they get better as you go up the line, the 2M bronze would be the one I would shoot for with your amp).  The Grado Prestige carts are also cheap and cheerful and sound fantastic (Grado has a cool house sound you may like).  At this price point, MMs are in their wheelhouse, and you can try a bunch of them!  If I am being honest, I like my MasterTracker MM better than the HanaSL for casual listening (the Hana IS more resolving, but only when I am listening carefully and not distracted by anything going on around me).  But when I am partying and drinking beer with friends it is MC all the way!

@kahlenz Thanks for taking the time to validate my decision to purchase the 1210 GR. It really means a lot to me. also, the recommendations on Carts.. I am still trying to understand what’s required to run LO vs HO MC carts vs MM carts.

My Marantz PM KI Ruby states the following for input sensitivity/Input impedance:

• PHONO (MC): 250 μV / 100 Ω/ohms
• PHONO (MM): 2.3 mV/39 kΩ/kohms

Is this what I should be referring to when deciding whether or not my marantz is good enough to drive for example, the Hana SL? You’ve mentioned minimum of >400 ohms..looks like my amp is nowhere near that mark.. lol and its not even good enough to run the Mofi MM that requires 47 ohms?

The Technics SL1200GR is a great turntable for the money, especially for a low fuss user who isn't inclined to go down the rabbit hole (plenty of time for that later). I am currently using that table with assorted carts and have no reason to upgrade until I am ready to spend significantly more money ($5k plus for table, $5k plus for phono-preamp, and $2k plus for cart – plus hours of time).

My favorite carts for the SL1200GR are a Hana SL (.5mv output) running into 1kohms (the cart needs >400 ohms minimum, but opening it up can sound better in some systems, some people run them wide open but I find that a bit harsh).  I also really like my Mofi MasterTracker MM (3mv output), which of course I run wide open (47kohms) and can be run using a standard MM phono pre input. (that Mofi MasterTracker is similar to the AT cart you are looking at but has better build quality).

The Hana ML has lower output and will require a better phono preamp to a step-up transformer to extract its value.  You have to decide how much you want to spend on a phono pre.  I'm satisfied with a $1.7k Odyssey Suspiro for my modest carts; you will need to spend considerably more if you are looking at high end ($2k plus) carts.  The HanaML is a great value cart if matched with the right phono-pre, without the right pre you will likely not notice a difference between the ML and the SL.

Everybody talks up the Denon 103, but it is too heavy for the medium compliance arm on the SL1200 GR.  If you want to go that route, do your research on tone arm compliance.  I can get my Shure V15 III to work, but it really needs a high compliance, lightweight arm to work well.  The arm on the SL1200GR works with a wide variety of modern carts, including ATs, Ortofons and Grados.  The removable shell makes it easy to swap carts!

Guys, the table arrived yesterday and its simply stunning. Love how it looks and feels. The heft and weight feels solid compared to the Rega (which felt quite light to be honest). I'm not saying it in a negative way, coz I know Rega is all about its engineering but the weight of the 1210 gr does feel nice.

@newfzx7 thank you.  the AT cartridge will arrive today. I bought one that's already installed to a head shell. Its supposed to be pre-aligned.  My stylus gauge and protractor doesn't arrive until tomorrow. Should I wait to make sure i have the accurate tracking force and alignment or trust the cartridge alignment and Technics tracking force knob?

@helomech thank you. I am extremely pleased with the table and i don't doubt it one bit. Can't get better than this for the $$. 

The GR is the best sounding table I’ve encountered anywhere near the <$3K price point. 

You really must step up to a $5K^ belt-drive table or the 1200G to get a worthwhile improvement. Even with a $5K belt drive you might have to sacrifice some pitch stability when it comes to sustained notes.
 

I think you'll be pleased with that AT cartridge.

Here's a common sort of stylus gauge...

Stylus gauge Amazon

On my SL1200 I use a tracking force of 1.8g for my 540ML.

Technics advises to set the antiskate to the same value as you set the tracking force. That's done using a small dial near the back end of the tonearm. 

@pennfootball71 Interesting..  could it have been the acoustics, rest of the chain or something. Coz I really liked how the P6 sounded.

Also, what's a budget value for money phono interconnect? Or is the stock cable good enough?

I can’t believe you were mesmerized by a P6! I had one it was a total meh meh meh I couldn’t wait to trade in for something else.

@mbmi Ah, interesting point of view. I've always felt that the opposite is true with most things. For example, I'd much rather buy a top of the line spacious Acura instead of an entry level cramped for space Audi or Mercedes or BMW.  This may not be the case with Hifi but I already ordered the Technics.. so not a whole lot I can do.. haha

Go with the Least Expensive model TT of a High End TT Mfgr. like EAT or Michell. You get a better made TT than the upper end tables of a mfgr. that makes $400 TT's.

@zazouswing haha, that went right over my ignorant head. I guess I'll stick to the AT cart for now and revisit the Denon and other MC carts a few months down the road.  I hope the AT won't be too disappointing, esp given that I haven't heard that many turntables sing. Its been a 100% digital until now. Excited and nervous at the same time. 

And it helps to know that I don't need a weight gauge at this point. Thanks again!

As far as a weight gauge, it’s used to set the tracking force. With the Techniques, they will tell you to mount the cart and zero out the counter weight when the arm floats above that table. Then, based on what the cart manufacturer recommended for down pressure, adjust the counter weight. The stylus gauge lets you confirm this number by taking an actual reading instead of using the marks on the counter weight. I have never found the table to be off by more than a 10th of a gram- so really not needed unless you end up with several carts and head shells and need to switch them out often. I have one brace I listen to a lot of mono and 78’s - so 5 carts for me in rotation depending on the albums. 

I’ve never heard the AT so unfortunately I can’t give a good comparison. I know there are reviewers out there who swear by the Denon 103 and review carts costing 4K+. 
 

I looked up your amp. It appears to have a MM and MC setting only. There doesn’t appear to be any resistance loading options. When it comes to MM vs MC Lo, the physical install complexity is the same, but electronically they are very different. A MM cart puts out about 4mv, and required about 45db gain to get it up to line level. A MC Lo puts out about .3 mv and requires a SUT or about 65db gain to get it to the same level.
 

assume (assume being the key word) that your amp’s MC input is preset to about 60db gain and maybe 100 or 400 ohms resistance. There is a formula used for determining the appropriate resistance for an MC cart. The 103R has .25mv output and 14ohms impedance. The 103 has .3mv output and 40 ohms impedance. The formula is to determine the step up ratio required (5mv / cart output mv), square that value, and divide it into 47,000 ohms. This gives you the natural impedance of the input. The cart wants to see 10 times it’s internal impedenece. For the 103R, this means a 1:20 step up ratio and about 117ohms natural loading - and the cart wants to see something above 140. That’s about right. For the 103, this is a 1:15 step up and about 177 ohms natural input loading - but the cart wants to see more than 400 - that’s not normal. Normally, if your above the resistance, you’re OK. If your below, the cart gets ‘pinched’. 
 

What does all this mean? The 103 is an OG cart and best uses if you have control over the resistance. The 103R has more normal specs and is probably more forgiving. Reviewers tend to say the 103R provides more ‘high end sparkle’ - if that’s what your looking for. 
 

Needless to say - this is complicated. It’s more complicated than what o have here because the 103 is an unusual cart with a lot of history and folks who tweak the load to suite their tastes. Ideally you could find out what the load is on the MC input of the amp and let that be your guide. Better yet, someone else has heard both and can make a recommendation. 

Also, what's the difference between the 103 and 103R? Latter is a $150 bucks more. 

@zazouswing Just realized that I can still return the cartridge (perhaps have them cancel the order if they haven't shipped it yet).  Do you think the Denon 103 will sound considerably better?  Meaning it will do better given I don't have a dedicated phono pre-amp (just the Marantz Integrated) and that its a MC cart? Guessing its LO?

@lalitk

Sure, I'll go ahead and get these. I am guessing the tweezer is used used to connect the cartridge to the head shell?  If so, hopefully I won't have to put it to use immediately as the AT 540ML comes with a headshell.  Curious what's the Stylus Force Gauge used for?  I guess I could do a google search.. lol

Thank you so much!

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your inputs.  I really appreciate it.

@zazouswing: after going through yesterday's comments and doing some research, I ended up ordering the AT VM540 ML (with a head shell). It had very good reviews and part of me wanted to make this a journey. 

My understanding is that a change in Cartridge can bring about the biggest change, so starting with the AT will give me something to look forward.  I'll better understand why Hana, MC or even some of the MM cartridges are as expensive as they are.  

I have a 1200G and several of the carts being discussed. Generally, I have found MC carts to be more resolving than MM carts. The problem is with the phono pre-amp. Any preamp being asked to produce 65db of gain runs the risk of adding noise. The Hana is a great cart and I am using one now, but if I were in your shoes I may start with a Denon 103. Great bang for the buck and you can get a read on your preamp before laying out the major cash. If you can tell us your loading options, that may help. Once you start down the MC path, cartridge loading is key. 

Other than the cartridge, no upgrade on a turntable is going to bring about a night-and-day improvement.  So don't believe that the Technics or P3 isn't future-proof.  The Technics does have a removable headshell which to me is vitally important as I like to flip cartridges around.  I even replaced my expensive Luxman table for a low end Technics for that reason.

@prashanth14485

As daunting it may seem but Installing cart is relatively an easy task. Don’t over tighten the screws..lol. Here are couple of must own accessories that will make your life easier, both of these accessories are available from Elusivedisc.com

1) Audio Additives Digital Stylus Force Gauge 
2) Nasotec Headshell Lead Tweezers

In addition to the Nagaoka JT 80 Black, which I have, I would also recommend the Nagaoka MP-500. Both are excellent carts. The MP-500 will give you more transparency and perhaps keep you from wanting to upgrade down the road. 

Cartridge options in no particular order:

• Hana S MC Cart ($750, not ideal)
• Grado Opus 3 MI ($300)
• AT VM540ml ($250)
• Orotofon Blue or Black

What do you guys think about the Nagaoka JT 80 Black? Also, in that <$500 price point.

Thank you so much for your help!

@lewm @yogiboy @newfzx7  thanks for your inputs. I went ahead and placed the order with more confidence. I'm super excited to see this beauty in person.  

@willyht thank you so much. for sharing your experience. I just placed the order. I have to now decide on the cartridge.  I'm leaning towards a similar journey to that of yours.  Start with a simple budget cartridge (ideally <$500 or $750 at the most - perhaps the Hana recommended by @lalitk) and gradually work my way up over time. 

I'd prefer something that's plug and play given my little to no knowledge and experience. lol

@lalitk Thank you. Quick question, is installing the Hana MC cartridge straightforward or will it require some adjusting etc. Keep in mind, I have very limited knowledge and would prefer not to have any complications.. I hope you understand where I am coming from. Scared of making stupid mistakes and potentially damaging.. lol

I had an SL1210 GR and have nothing but good things to say about it. I started with an Ortofon Blue MM cartridge ($200), and then an Audio Technica VM540ML MM ($200), but ultimately went with an Audio Technica art9xi MC cartridge ($1,500), which brought the sound to a new level.

Truth be told, I upgraded to the SL1200G, out of curiosity, but other than pride of ownership, and next-level build quality, I can’t say the sound difference was night and day better. Bottom line, the SL1210GR is a classic table and it’s friendly with a lot of headshells/cartridges. I guarantee you’ll be happy with it. Imho, when you're at the quality level of an SL1210GR, the choice of cartridge is a much larger contributor to the sound than the table.

“what do you think are the shortcomings of the SL 1210 GR?”
@prashanth14485

Nothing major other than being limited on upgrade path. Other than cartridge, there isn’t much you can do in terms of upgrading the SL. If you own a good turntable, you can always get a meaningful upgrade from upgrading the tonearm and isolation feet or platforms. But that’s getting into deep $$$$ territory which can be explored later when you have a bigger budget. 

Check out the Hana S MC Cart -$750.

 I moved from a Clearaudio Concept to a SL1200GR because of it's removable headshell. I thought it would be a lateral move sound quality wise, but it wasn't, the direct drive Technics sound floor is more quiet and the speed is always dead on.

Other pluses for the SL1200 is the included cartridge alignment tool makes set up easy, you can change the anti-skate on the fly, the VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) is also easy to change and accessible. 

I started with an AT VM540ml on mine, it's an excellent lower cost MM cartridge.

That Technics with this 300 dollar Grado Opus 3 MI cartridge would make a fine setup! You don’t need to spend more than that!

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/grado-timbre-series-opus3/

If it’s P3 vs GR, go with GR. You’ll be satisfied for years to come. Or even vs P6.

@lalitk thank you so much for your advise and suggestions. When I said future proof, I meant something that will allow an upgrade path for a few years to come.  Also, best as in best my money can buy at the moment.  I know what you mean and how I wish I had $5k to splurge.  But that's just not my reality right now.. lol

Just curious, what do you think are the shortcomings of the SL 1210 GR? Are there alternatives you'd rather I buy in the same price range?  Again, I am not trying to buy the best, simply the best that I can afford.  

I will definitely look into the Hana ML but prefer something in the range of $500-$750 at the most for cartridge.  Idea is to upgrade down the road. Thanks again for your help.  Cheers!

“the idea is to get a future proof turntable”

I hate to say it but SL1200 is not something I would consider a future proof TT. If you want to dip your toes into record playback, go ahead with SL1200. If you’re the type that prefer the best then you need to budget around $5K. Alternatively, look for used bargains on TT’s.

A good analog setup requires serious commitment and $$$$.

My reference for start up cartridge is Hana ML MC Cartridge - $1200. Your built-in Marantz phono EQ would suffice for now but eventually you may end up upgrading to a better phono. When I started with analog few years back, I was pleasantly surprised by modestly priced Parasound ZPhonoXRM - $249. It was so easy to use and sounded incredibly good with a $3K TT and Hana ML Cart.

Basic products for cleanup….depends on whether you’re digging records through bargain bins at local thrift stores or buying new records 😊

Be patient and soak in all the advise coming your way from some of the experienced members here and then plan your purchase.