Technical assistance and recommendations needed

Thank you all for you suggestions will try some options presented. Stray _cat's seem like easy good ones to try .Now its time to tune in turn on and give a listen.

Hi Scott, when you say you are using a schiit eq I'm assuming you run the analog outs of your CD into the Technics. Instead of that, you could replace it with an ifi itube2 or some other tube buffer made by Decware or Fosgate?

My bought new itube2 has been in service 24/7 for a little over 5 years now. Highly recommended but you might have to buy used. I paid $375 and one of my best buys for musicality yet still highly resolving that songs or dialogue on TV, words were much more coherent but only use in unity gain otherwise the upper mids slightly harden (no sibilance, just a sense of hardening). Highs and cymbals still so natural no hint of fatigue and I wouldn't say mids & upper bass was warmish, but body of instruments fully fleshed out.

Alternatively, have you tried using the CD coax out into the coax input on the Technics, thereby using the Technics' DAC. You could then experiment with different Coax cables which *DO NOT* present music or sound the same. I use an active powered Acoustic Revive, the best depth and layering I've experienced in digital but they are hard to find these days. It was revelatory compared to Silnote, Hi-Fidelity Cables Reveal, and others I can't recall now.

Even as audiotroy says your Cantons can be bright, you might be able to flesh out more musical body out of them. Best of luck!

The JBL Studio 590 on sale at 50% off:

https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+590.html

Looks like I gotta replace the speakers, for something detailed with body for around 2 grand+-.

Wharfdale Lintons will be just the ticket with your gear. 

I have a Shitts EQ and sometimes it's helpful for really bad recordings but other than that it makes everything sound like a 1970's Pioneer receiver. I put it on line very sparingly.

Those Monster Cable interconnects aren't helping you much either.

Try a tube DAC for your CD player, a non over sampling one would help give you a more analog sound. I have a Kora Hermes NOS/Tube DAC that I absolutely love.

There are a few reasonably priced Tube/NOS DACS out there or maybe look for a used Phillips/ Magnavox CD player that has been modified (its just a switch setting) to NOS mode.

That could be the least expensive way to upgrade your sound.

All the best!

Why trash the Canton when you have a Shiits EQ? You can back off the Highs and Mids to get that warm sound you want. Some Audiophiles do not like EQs, but like them and they serve the purpose for me. 

"There was no happy medium as every recording reacted/sounded different to the new setting." nonoise

Yes thats another matter altogether. As you see I’m a CD based system and honestly the biggest influence on the music sound is the quality of the cd’s recording. Bad CDs sound worse on good reveling systems,( and that Technics is revealing) good Cd sound great.

So we go full circle it’s the goal to maximize the synergist interaction of components to our own location and ears within the financial resources available.

You guys have been helpful your insights appreciated, and it was a fun (for me) exchange.

@scott22 

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I just turned 69 and my hearing has a deficit around the 2.5Khz area and goes back up and supposedly, I can't hear above 14Khz but I do hear what I hear. 

I think that what we're hearing as too forward or edgy lies in the upper midrange and not in the treble so much. Until I got my new speakers the sound above the mids was too engaging and almost glass like and I think it's the metallic drivers used. I have pots to trim the mids and highs on the JBLs and when I got the edge down to where it was acceptable, I lost everything else in the range that needed to be there. There was no happy medium as every recording reacted/sounded different to the new setting.

@asctim 

I think you're right about Technics doing things differently than others. There are similar brands that use digital amps but not in the same way as Technics. 

All the best,
Nonoise

I've heard relatively cheap class D sound plenty warm. Maybe we're using the word "warm" to describe different things? 

Unfortunately that is the problem with these discussions. There is no way to know what these descriptions mean. Warm can mean different things to different people. 

nonoise your spot on about the amp and as you know it is dead silent. I'm beginning to wonder, if it is my 75 year old hearing. Interesting a few years ago I went to an audiologist and had marked loss in hearing if I can remember back I believe I'm in the 14000hz range max. so I wonder why the system(cantons) sound lean I would think the highs would sound rolled off to me.

If kenjit had a brain decent system, he could relate and make sense when he trolls contributes to a thread. There's nothing like real life experiences to go by instead of reading something, somewhere.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise 

I'm really intrigued with that Technics. It sounds like a drastic improvement over the early Panasonic amps, which despite their low cost seemed to be doing something right in a way I'd never quite heard before.

@kenjit 

I've heard relatively cheap class D sound plenty warm. Maybe we're using the word "warm" to describe different things? 

My old JBL 4319s had Al/Mag tweeter and midrange and no matter the amp, they could wear on you. The sound was big and bold but it was those drivers that took their toll. 

You should have had them retuned. Perhaps send them over to Danny Boy over in Texas and he would have sorted it out?

Class D are never warm. They are very cold clinical amps. If you want a nice rich sound you must use class AB. Class D are wrong.

@asctim 

I find the Technics to be anything but thin and light in its presentation. In fact, it errs ever so on the warm side. Pairing it with the right speakers makes a big difference. It's also is bold and rich sounding with great insight into a recording. One Absolute Sound reviewer on YouTube said it's a taste of the ultra high end at 1/10th the price just for its resolving capabilities. 

My old JBL 4319s had Al/Mag tweeter and midrange and no matter the amp, they could wear on you. The sound was big and bold but it was those drivers that took their toll. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise

Interesting. I haven’t heard the SUG700 described as bright, but definitely not warm. Thin and light is what I read from various reviews and it matched closely with my impression of earlier, similar amps made by the same parent company. Really beautiful in their own way but not particularly warm. The class D amp I switched to was so warm in comparison it was almost too much. In any case, you do agree that these amps could make a difference. I’ve never heard this particular speaker he’s using, let alone tried it with various amps, so you could be right - the speaker is hopeless.

I've read the technics SUG700 is a very good integrated but I've not heard anybody describe that as warm sounding, more light and lean. I'd try auditioning a different integrated amp before giving up on your speakers. I've not used that particular amp but I've used amps with similar pure digital circuitry before and I'd describe them as thinner, leaner sounding than a more traditional Class a/b or even good class D amps that work with analog input. I'd bet a different amp might warm things up enough for you. When I switched from pure digital to an analog input class D, the perceived difference in lower midrange upper bass was profound. The image that comes to mind is light molasses pouring from a bottle compared to carbonated water. Like you, I was unable to fully change the character of the amp's sound with EQ. This is a fascinating topic to me because I don't know why the EQ doesn't seem to work. There might be a way to EQ them warmer but it seems consistent that these kind of amps tend to have a lighter, leaner sound. 

First, don’t listen to kenjit. The Technics SU-G700 is not a Class D amp in the sense that others are defined by that. It’s a true digital amp. Besides, my former Class A/B integrated was a Marantz Reference PS15 S2 and it was way more brighter than the Technics. I have the M2 version of that integrated and it’s a beautiful sounding amp when partnered with the right speakers.

Second, don’t listen to kenjit as no two ICs sound the same. He’s just in this for the trolling measurements and not the resultant sound. If you can swing it, try some entry level Darwin Cables.

Third, don’t listen to kenjt about retuning your speakers. HIs facts exist in a space that only occurs between his ears. It seems to be your speakers and nothing can really be done to cure/tame that edge your hearing short of getting a different pair of speakers. I was in the same boat and thought nothing would work until I landed on a set of speakers that actually cured the edge yet had more air, detail, ambience, etc.

You’re not going to like this but if you can part with your Cantons and retain 70% of their value when new, get a pair of Revival Audio Atalante 3 monitors, pocket the savings, and call it a day. It’s what I did.

All the best,
Nonoise

Speaker grills detract from the overall sound to my old ears. Looks like I gotta replace the speakers, for something detailed with body for around 2 grand+-.

I do have to look into upgrading the interconnects to see what they may bring to the table. LOL I can see how this all plays out.

The Rolling Stones - (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction (Official Lyric Video) - Bing video

Can your Schitt equalizer help with the brightness?  How about speaker grills on versus off?

If permissible, pull the speakers out from the back wall to a minimum of 3 ft measured from the tweeter/baffle to have more SS depth and to avoid the reflected sound mingled with the direct sound.

I hate to burst your bubble but the aluminum tweeters in those speakers might be the problem that you are describing. I doubt that any IC will warm them up!!

+1 for the Cardas speaker cables. You can buy the 4s11 in bulk and do your own pretty easily. No cable is an equalizer, but proper mating can really make a difference. My Klipsch Heritage speakers have all benefited from a Cardas cable of some sort over the years. Bang for buck comes to mind. Enjoy your system and get lost in the music.

As said Canton’s are bright

yes indeed

 a bit more body to the sound

So with the WAF we will forget about adding diffusors on the side walls or the ceiling. I found the Add-Powr products unlike other power or cable related upgrades in that they add more harmonics and decrease the noise floor. Noise you didn't even know existed but recognize once its gone. You can check it out here:

https://add-powr.com/technology

I forgot to mention married guy sooo room full of hanging and standing plants in the corners so they're my bass traps, also drapes behind the gear covering windows. it is a very well damped room.

The speakers are 8 feet apart and 8 ft from sitting position and  5 ft from side walls. 2 ft out from back wall but back side of speak only about 12 inches or so from back wall, consequently DOF not great but imaging is very good as good as recorded. It just needs a touch more tenor tone( a bit more body to the sound) for lack of a better word. Don't get me wrong it sounds very good on axis. 

If you add bass traps in the corners and absorption panels on both the front and back walls it will tame the highs. Carpets and furniture are fine but placement is key. Everything you want to achieve can be done with room treatments, equipment changes are a crap shoot (and you can sure lose money the same way).

As said Canton’s are bright. You have a nice system it’s a shame you went with those speakers. I use Dynaudio with my Pass integrated and that combo has a lush meaty midrange. Not one iota of harness. As suggested try some cardas cabling, or if you can find some used Harmonic tech cables. Those are the cables I use mostly. 

Hey thanks guys in short your collective recommendations are spot on audiophile that is sell  the system and start over. Seriously I appreciate your feedback it has given me direction. I'll upgrade cables if that's not the solution,  I'll move the integrated. I like that "Due" tube and ss combo powered sweetness sadly a bit out of my reach$ and a bit to quirky with the controls per review. I like the Cantons for what they bring to my near field listening just need to be a bit warmer,the EQ does not seem to do it. kenjit that what I've come to understand about class D a little light,so your saying I can't make a silver purse out of a sows ear. To paraphrase  form the Treasures of the Sierra Madre; Speaker tuner,I don't have no speaker tuner, I don't need no speaker tuner,I don't have to use no stinkin speaker tuner.

My prior system was all Adcom cd,pre/tuner,amp, driving Snell C2s after some decades I figured I try an integrated and stand mounted.In all respects the current system is better except for the smother(rolled off) sound of the big Snells. The tube systems I've heard (few and far between) were to me a bit unnaturally smooth,but not AR,thats  great gear and  I will keep my eye out for it used. Thanks again 

@kenjit  tuning the room works better.

all interconnects are the same. Ive just had a look at your amp and its a class D so you will need to get rid of that and buy a class AB. Next you will need a speaker retune by a speaker tuner. There are not many of those around thesedays. 

Its not what you wanted to hear but those are the facts. 

For an interconnect solution, I recommend Cardas cables. Their lower end interconnects are specifically designed to be a bit warmer to help make up for brightness typically associated with more modest gear.

Longer termed I would look to upgrade your integrated amp… to a higher quality / warmer… tubed would be good. You might audition an Audio Research and Pass integrated. The ARC is very warm (yet still detailed). The Pass is slightly warm and very detailed and musical. Also, Luxman… but I find these a bit analytical.
 

You have made significant investments in your system. It is probably worth a trip to a big city to audition these components. Call ahead and make an appointment so they can have the equipment ready for you to hear.

Canton speakers are bright

adding something with tubes will help

you could get a large upgrade by getting a unison research due a hybrid integrated

whicheven has a great dac

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect  nj

Unison research dealers