MC cartridges have a wire that extends from the back of the cantilever through the coil. The wire is pulled through a rubber damping ring then through a hole in the rear pole that has a set screw to lock the wire. As the wire is pulled tight the coil compresses the rubber. The tension on the wire is critical as this determines the compliance of the suspension.
I would only get a factory rebuild. Some companies like Elusive Disc will give you a new cartridge for a rebuild price. They send the used cartridge back to the factory. It costs a little more but you get a new cartridge right away.
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Could you explain why do you need a retip of MM cartridge if you can buy NOS Grace stylus, even F14 (RS14) which is huge upgrade over F9 (RS9) of any kind, the RS14 styli from Grace can be Boron/MicroRidge, Sapphire, Ruby and even Ceramic cantilever. Grace made Aluminum with MicroRidge too. This is the best diamond profile you can get, life span can be 2000 hrs! They are rare, but well worth the investment, I collect all Grace styli. Never re-tipped any of my Grace cartridges (I have many of them). SoundSmith actually rebuild Grace, it’s not a re-tip, he can install whole new cantilever with stylus tip. Re-tip is just a tiny diamond replacement on a cantilever using glue. This is original Grace Ruby, try to find any glue (more here). This is SoundSmith Ruby with glue (more here). The situation with MC cartridges is another story, you’d better read what cartridge designers think about third party re-tip if you want to know the truth, find Jonathan Carr’s comment on this forum. Re-tippers will always accept any cartridge for re-tip, this is their job and you will pay for it (very high price). On the other had we have people who have no idea what they are doing and always comment that re-tip is better than the original, at the same time you will find tons of re-tipped MC cartridges on ebay with less than 50 hrs on it (why people are selling them? Think about it). Here is a typical example of SoundSmith glued stylus tip on Boron Rod cantilever (image from his site again). And this is a factory job, nude diamond on boron rod cantilever (image under my macro lens). What re-tippers can’t get today is Boron Pipe cantilevers (just one example), they can’t mount their styli like this. Do you see any glue? This is super riggid and super light mass construction (hollow boron pipe and stylus mounted through the laser etched hole). This is how top of the line MM or MC were made in the golden era of analog (not today). I could add more different images I made myself, but I think it’s enough to understand what I mean. Here is the side view on Boron Pipe cantilever with Nude Diamond. Like Grace it is a high compliance MM (SONY). Same Boron Pipe cantilever you can find on the best Grace models. Extremely low moving mass! Another example is Beryllium (Victor X1II), just look at this. |
Remember Technics best cartridges, this is one of mine under macro lens. Technics made the lowest possible moving mass MM cartridge (Boron Pipe cantilever). See why it’s better. According to this Technics research: "Somewhere in the high frequencies, every cartridge has an undesirable resonance point. Undesirable because there the frequency response curve climbs a sudden peak. If that peak is in the audible range, your records sound not as intended. That resonance frequency is determined by the total effective moving mass of the vibrating system - the summed masses of the diamond stylus and, most importantly, the cantilever and magnet, etc. To shift that harmful resonance frequency up into the high supersonics, the effective moving mass must be reduced to the lowest possible minimum. Also, too much effective moving mass increases the mechanical impedance, thereby negatively affecting the cartridge’s tracing ability." Retippers can’t do anything like that, they don’t even have an access to those cantilevers, they are not available today (boron pipe, beryllium). What they can do is to buy what’s available and install it. Or they can glue a new tip on old cantilever, but glue will add mass etc. Re-tip or rebuild is a compromise, most likely degradation of the very special cartridge (if you have a very special one). This is why a very special cartridges must be shipped back to the manufacturer for rebuild or upgrade with a new one. |
fair points and perspectives so far - thank you
i should have been more precise to distinguish a retip from a rebuild... the difference is of course meaningful, thanks for pointing that out chak...
appreciate other comments that more experienced folks than me may have - am sure lewm, raul, mc and many others will chime in before long |
All you need to know, explained well by Jonathan Carr (Lyra) on this forum long time ago, I will just copy paste here again:
"Changing only the stylus will alter the sound less than if the cantilever material is changed. When a cartridge is designed, the designer will consider the moving mass (sum of the stylus, cantilever and coils), the resonant character of the cantilever, and the (sonic) propagation velocity of the cantilever (affected by the cantilever's mass and rigidity), then choose the suspension and dampers accordingly. If you change the cantilever material, you are effectively throwing the original designer's calculations away. There is much more (far more than what I have written above) to rebuilding a cartridge than affixing a new stylus or altering the cantilever. In over 30 years of involvement in the phono cartridge industry, I have not seen one retipper who has presented the entire story, who has effectively said "Here are the all of the considerations. Here are the cons as well as the pros. Make a wise choice that is best for you" ... " (J.Carr, 2013)
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I have bought a couple Grace F9 retips from Peter Ledermann - they work wonderfully.
Your actual experience then is quite good. Yet we have pictures trying to create the impression that because there's a lot of glue it must be a sloppy job. At least that seems to be the impression. Always hard to tell with innuendo. Ledermann has a whole career built on developing and improving phono cartridges. If you want to learn about cartridges you could do worse than to watch the videos he has up on Soundsmith and YT. Here for example is a fascinating discussion of jitter, (vibration and resonance in all the different parts of a cartridge) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwnN_T_wW8 Just the first few minutes should be enough to understand anyone posting pictures of glue is probably missing the big picture. Tracking a record groove sets in motion a complex pattern of vibrations in every part of the cartridge. The first point of vibration is the stylus itself. One might think its the stylus/cantilever attachment point. That seems to be the reason for the pictures. If so its misleading. The stylus itself is very small but the tip of the stylus, the actual contact area, is microscopic. The stylus itself is bound to vibrate. The better the stylus is supported above the contact point the less of the stylus there is to wobble and flex around. Now look at those photo's again. It would be super easy to put a blob of glue on there and stick the stylus into it. If that's what it was I'd be appalled. But instead what we see is glue perfectly applied in a smooth curve from as low on the stylus as it can go to as far out on the cantilever. https://www.sound-smith.com/sites/default/files/BO-CL1a.jpgThis can't be by accident. Can't prove it, but watch a lot of Ledermann, try and tell yourself this was an accident. Try and tell yourself its anything other than Ledermann building a bunch of these things and figuring out by trial and error this is better than OEM. Compare that now to OEM. https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119490585_4737129112971885_4613339876402529386_o.jpg?_... Notice that not only is the stylus itself not supported very close to the contact area, but the whole thing is projecting out much further from the cantilever. That's a big drawback, because the further it projects out the more mechanical leverage it has to put torque into the cantilever. This would explain why your experience was, "They work wonderfully". Watch a bunch of his videos. There's a lot to learn. If you're impatient, or just want a terrific teaser how good his jitter video is https://youtu.be/WmwnN_T_wW8?t=1220 |
This subject has been done so many times it is now flat as a pancake. There are undeniable facts: If you have an original vintage cartridge, the suspension is old. That per se may affect compliance and sound quality. If it is NOS (never ever been used), then in my opinion it is even more likely that the suspension will be problematic. Not to say it won't work and sound very very good, only to say that you cannot know how it sounded originally. So, why the big fuss about re-tipping? If you re-tip, don't expect original sound quality unless you go through the manufacturer, who usually will just be giving you a replacement new cartridge, for big bucks if MC type. If you use an aftermarket re-tipper, then what you've got might sound wonderful but probably not like the original, and so what, if you are otherwise pleased? Case in point, I own both an original Grace Ruby (sapphire cantilever/elliptical stylus) and a second one that was re-tipped by SS with their sapphire cantilever and OCL stylus. I have often listened to them both in sequential order. The SS re-tip version sounds better but not like the original. I am happy either way but I use the SS re-tipped version much more often. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't go home again. What's past is prologue. Etc.
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As the owner of many vintage cartridges I must say that compliance is measurable with Hi-Fi News TEST LP. Based on my experience with more than 60 cartridges I can say that a high compliance is always a high compliance and a low compliance always a low compliance.
Stiff suspension is a myth, softened suspension is a common problem for some well know cartridges, just don’t buy them and you’re fine.
I think Lewm is not a hunter for vintage cartridges even if he has some at his vaults.
SoundSmith Grace stylus has advanced stylus profile, the original is elliptical.
But when you will try an original Grace with original MicroRidge you will not find anything better than this.
Grace offered MR styli in the 80’s with F14 and LEVEL II cartridges, your F9 is from the 70’s.
Grace upgraded the whole line of cartridges in the 80’s - they are the best from Grace.
For a person who think that every vintage cartridge must be rebuild because of that myth (about suspension) my advice to pass on it and stick to the new cartridges. Very simple.
People are buying top vintage cartridges not because they want them to be rebuild by someone with new parts. Buying many different samples of the same vintage cart is the best test, after purchasing many samples of the same model you can judge about the quality of this model. If you can’t do it yourself you’d better ask those who purchased many and tested many. A top vintage cartridge is valuable ONLY when it’s perfect. Some people sell junk, don’t buy from them. Audiophiles (not dealers) is the best source for used cartridges in best condition, they you will get exactly what you paid for (not a junk sample with dead suspension).
New cartridges can have many more problems than an old ones!
Suspension collapse quickly even on $5000 LOMC made today (if you think all new is better then how can you explain that?)
My advice: NEVER BUY RE-TIPPED CARTRIDGES! (exception is a factory retip/rebuild by the manufacturer).
Always search for the original sample even if it will cost more. Only an average cartridge can be upgraded with different cantilever/stylus, a perfect cartridge can only be downgraded with different parts coming from a third-party vendor.
P.S. SoundSmith cartridges is not the answer to all questions, they are not the best in the world, some of them in the new line are so ugly (sorry, previous design was aesthetically much better in my opinion).
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One can also re-tip by buying pre-made assemblies, from Adamant Namiki.
I get your point, though (chakster).
The nude mounted styli on our cartridges is a namiki aluminum unit. (elliptical, shibata, or micro-ridge. Micro-ridge being akin to micro-line)
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Speakers can be upgraded with different parts. Amplifiers, CD players, phono stages, turntables, tone arms- even speaker cables, power cords and interconnects can be upgraded in the aftermarket. Only phono cartridges cannot.
I do have one question though: is ANYTHING the answer to all questions? |
I just had my Benz Micro Wood M2 cartridge serviced by Steve Leung at VAS. It was very dirty and rusty after 8 years of no use... For $350, Steve did a great job servicing the damper, suspension and lightly polished the stylus diamond to spec as well. I did that not thoroughly researching enough as I likely would have been better off getting the cartridge rebuilt. It does sound great though..
But, I’m glad I didn’t as I changed lanes and wound up buying a Benz Micro LP-S a few days ago and will sell my Wood M2 along with my
Basis 2001 t.t./Rega RB900 arm since I upgraded to a Vertere Acoustics MG-1/SG-1.
But if you intend on keeping your cartridge, I agree, get it rebuilt.
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I apologize if this is a bit off topic, but how many of you remember Needlestein (Joseph) on AudioKarma. He put up so many amazing posts and threads on AK regarding cartridges, styli, detailed pics of needle shapes/profiles, etc. over a period of years. It was extremely useful and excellent information. He unfortunately got kicked off of AK for breaking some kinda rule regarding his retipping carts for people on AK, which he of course charged for. I had him retip a few of my carts, and he always did a fantastic job. He now offers his services on eBay.
The most terrible thing is when he was removed from AK, so we’re ALL of his amazing words of wisdom, his informative posts, and even the phenomenal pics of different stylus shapes and profiles taken with a digital microscope. Just, POOF! Gone! It sucked.
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@technick, I remember him well and he was a wealth of information. I understand why he was kicked off AK and he was warned repeatedly about selling his services in the TT forum. But to delete all of his post was a terrible thing to do.
BillWojo
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Speakers can be upgraded with different parts. Amplifiers, CD players, phono stages, turntables, tone arms- even speaker cables, power cords and interconnects can be upgraded in the aftermarket. Only phono cartridges cannot. Re-tippers can buy only what’s available from Namiki or Ogura (or maybe some others), while the cartridge manufacturers can order exclusive parts patented/manufactured for their own cartridges only. But the question is not even a quality of parts, but a calculation of mass, resonances etc that only original designed can do manufacturing/voicing his own high-end cartridge. Sometime this is a long process and they try different parts before choosing what they are using. Why do you think re-tipper in his garage can do better if he don’t even have an access to those exclusive parts manufactured only for the specific cartridge designers? You can upgrade weak parts in the products (like amps whatever), not sure how you can upgrade a reference class, you can only change something pretending for upgrade, but only certain kind of people have this habit, most of them are very strange, the best of them design their own products instead of upgrading others. Cartridge is the most important part in analog chain. Everyboby knows JICO, their stylus SAS (bury, boron, sapphire) replacements for old MM cartridges is an upgrade for mediocre cartridges, but not an upgrade for top of the line reference class cartridges. Many original styli are much better than best SAS replacement. With MM you can immediately change your stylus and compare, with MC people are waiting for their cartridges from a re-tipper for a 1-5 month and they can’t compare re-tipped and the original, but i think it’s very important to compare side by side the original and re-tipped sample (I did that with some very rare re-tipped/refurbished MM). Another weird habit is to invest over $1k to a $300 cartridge, some people love it. Denon 103 is one of them, instead of buying a nice $1500 cartridge they are happy to invest $1000-1500 into a $300 cartridge and raving about the result they are hearing. |
Chakster,
The other important point to ponder is: not all things are known about how to upgrade a cartridge, nor is all lore and intelligence applied available only to the makers of the past.
New things or new ideas do show up in the now, not just in the past. New thinking can create new advantage, in newer products. It’s not just a rehashing of the old, with a set of now limited resources, all downturn...as you are saying.
As in, all is not lost.
Eg, if I come up with a new understanding and then apply it on a current build or design, there is as a chance or opportunity.. that it may exceed some of the cartridges of old, in some given important ways. Ways that people can clearly hear.
It’s not all about a downturn and forgetting our history, and losing the lore and physical devices, etc...in the mists of time.
Advantage and change and elevation from the old can come from different directions. (delineated specific ways, of course, not some nebulous nonspecific overall)
So, if i say I’ve taken a current design and made changes that elevate it from what is currently at the peak of lets say MM design (that is current manufacture), there is no real credible reason to doubt that to the point of outright dismissal, especially if one has not listened to it.
To say such a thing would be disingenuous and misleading for all the wrong reasons, and none of the right ones. It would ruin the logic of your position by being a falsifiable position. Falsifiable via listening, possibly... but immediately falsifiable by logic alone.
New thinking and new application of said new thinking can/may/might elevate to new levels, it can/may/might make the current deficits less of a problem....if done correctly.
In effect, If someone comes along and is doing their best to take current design to a new level and reclaim some of the older lost ground and quality levels, in some way... where.. if you sit there and say, as a response... "it's no good compared to what used to be available, and that one must try to only buy the very limited number of old NOS cartridges in order to get to the best", well, that's just disingenuous and damaging to the potential of the now, and the future.
It can be interpreted by some, as saying 'only older things are good, all your new stuff is junk'. To judge without reason, in some small to possibly major way, depending on how it is voiced. I personally don't think that is your intent, but it seems to be sounding to any reader as being that way.
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Could you please recall exact models you’re talking about. And why don’t you explain in details what are you talking about? What new ideas, materials, please tell us. Because I can simply recall the best MM cartridges that are unbeatable today and the materials used in their design also not available today! This thread is about re-tipping, don’t forget. Cartridge designers like Jonathan Carr explained why you altering the sound when you change a tip or the whole cantilever, If you want to go off-topic: Let me know if you ever tried this brand new cartridge or that one. Very interesting design, the only problem is the price, this is how people sell new ideas today, are you willing to buy $14 000 cartridge ? No one can provide any information about this new material for cantilevers, can you tell anything? It’s NEW, do you think it’s better ? Probably everyone agree that Boron is one of the best material for cantilever, but nothing new here. Also nothing new in the shape of the diamonds, same old thing. What else ? A coid wire ? Also nothing new. A low impedance MM, or high impedance MM... Moving Iron, Induced Magnet, Moving Flux whatever, nothing new. I really want to read what is new in MM/ MI design today that wasn't there in the 80's ? |
I’ve already revolutionized conductor design by using liquid metal conductors which are, literally, purely a quantum beast. Not seen before anywhere, in anything. so new, it is not yet explored and can produce effects and conditions not yet realized.
For example, if making an inductor out of it, things get bizarre and don’t follow the expected rules.
There’s a thousand new patents and ideas hiding in there, yet people are clueless to the potential that is openly displayed and freely given.
(As an aside, a critical one...the US military made gaseous antenna system for their tanks in the 1990's. the gaseous antennas have no direction limits, no frequency limits, and no multiplexing limits.It disappeared. It disappeared into black ops, black budgets. One of untold thousands like it. Stolen from our collective human future.
This one, liquid metal as conductor ..has similar aspects to it. Think of it as a heavy mass gas.
As... I did it openly, into an ignorant world, and it managed to stay out in the open. For almost 15 years, so far.)
Where ignorance tries to beat me to death in the streets for being a charlatan. Such insanity and projections.
I’’m selling a $229 cartridge, with a return policy, if people don’t like it. It has some new ideas in it.
Just to get started.
It has to start small and pay for itself, as no one in their right mind, would create $500 MM phono cartridges by spending $10 million to get there. Just so a few people with influential opinions about sound quality.. could pass judgement on it ...and make or break the $10 million effort. That would be insanity.
No one, in this market, is going to do that for you. They’ll never recover their investment.
So it has to start small and pay for itself, as it goes...IF it gets the chance to go, at all.
I don’t have to prove anything to anyone, the return policy says it all.
IF I want my effort to take it further, then all you are going to be receiving at this time, is getting a chance to purchase it. You will not be getting the information, or thinking on why it’s an improvement. As that, is the ’thousand free patents’ end of the ideas and thinking pool. Stolen thunder. I don’t owe you that. No one does.
As that that would kill the effort before it begins. All that would happen is theft and loss of my chance to begin and take it somewhere better and greater. Intellectual property theft is a big problem for the start of any enterprise.
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Chak, I am sure you know the phrase “in my opinion “ in English. You should consider using it more often.
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it would seem to me that if a retipper/rebuilder has a good idea of the exact specs of the old cartridge cantilever and tip and suspension, to the extent materials are available, he can basically try to mimic the original spec, correct?
of course never ever perfect, but i should think they can get fairly close unless unobtanium exotic materials are called for...
just common sense reasoning... |
I have an experience of having a Cartridge Rebuilt.
My Investigations and Ordering a Cartridge to be rebuilt, was motivated by the results that I had heard from another Cartridge that is a model that is near unobtainable to purchase.
The closest I got was through fraud offerings as a Sale Item.
This Cartridge had been heard by myself on a Home System as a overhauled Cartridge and was remaining at the Factory Spec.
The Cartridge Owner was aware there was a further work that could be carried out and as a result of ordering this work to be undertaken,
it evolved into a Rebuilt Cartridge, using more update technologies for the internal parts, as well as another Stylus Part.
When hearing this rebuilt Cartridge, I was undoubtedly sure I was hearing a Change, and what I hearing as a presentation, was much more to my liking.
I was sure this was a place I wished to be with my Cartridge Selection,
but was knowing a Cartridge of the Model being used does not be genuinely seen for sale.
Further Investigation on the Subject showed a Cartridge from the Same Brand and of a Similar design could be used as a Donor for a rebuild.
The Technician predicted a outcome that would be very satisfactory, but it would be dependant on the Suitability of the Donor Cartridge.
After a thorough Inspection being carried out by the Technician of the Sourced Donor Cartridge Internals, the Bobbin and Coils were declared in very good condition and a thorough cleaning was required, it was claimed to filthy internally.
I had a rebuild produced at very fair money using modern design materials found on the Brands High End Cartridges.
I also chose a Different Stylus Part.
This build has been totally satisfying and Compared on regular occasion to the unobtainable model that motivated me.
Both Cartridge Owners are very impressed with the outcome of the comparisons, and how close the two Cartridges are, they are not Twins,
but definitely Siblings wearing similar outfits.
I have recently purchased very cheaply, another used Cartridge.
It is a Seven Year Old from new purchase, from the Same Brand, that has a lost Stylus Only.
It is to be used as a Donor Cartridge.
I had carried out Macro Photography to see if I could discover if the Boron Cantilever had broke, or if the Stylus had lost adhesion and separated.
What was very evident was the Dirt on the Cantilever and on the Body as well as entering the Housing by the Bobbin.
The Granular Particles being witnessed was quite a surprise,
I don't know how much they will effect the performance or the SQ,
but witnessing such a build up of Particles has made me rethink if a Cartridge would benefit from intermediate cleaning during its Stylus Life.
The New Donor Cartridge, afaik, has a internal technology that is further improved upon the Model I have in use at present.
I am now in discussion about my Rebuild Options, before it is sent for an inspection to be proven as a Suitable Donor.
The Technician has informed me over time of the Risks of buying in Donor Cartridges and having a expectancy of them being rebuilt.
They will only work on Samples from Brands in a very good condition, with use only wear being witnessed,
a Cartridge with 'third party works undertaken' prior to their receiving the Cartridge, will not be worked on.
They have informed me that many of the models from the Brand I am selecting are returned to their owners as a not able to be re-tipped,
as internal damage is seen on the Bobbin or Coils.
I am not out of the Woods Yet with my new plan, it might not be produced, as a result of a report on the condition witnessed during the Inspection.
It is another part of the wonderful journey into the pursuit of a New and Unique Experience, with my Vinyl Front End.
Not all Cartridge Technicians will accept a Cartridge to be worked on,
because it is their Business to do so.
My Experience is that a Technician will Charge a fixed fee, that a customer will be informed of in advance, the fee is to cover for a Inspection to be carried out, to assess the Cartridge as a Suitable Cartridge to be worked on.
If a work is achievable the Inspection fee will be absorbed into the overall fee, as it will be part of the process of the work being undertaken.
I am happy with how I have chosen to work with a Cartridge that will have been either compromised over time, through Wear, unknown Damage,
or as reported to and recently witnessed a Substantial Build Up of contamination.
To have a Cartridge that is an Obsolete Model and a Superseded Design, brought up to a Spec, where it will deliver a performance that is very attractive and satisfying for a reasonable reasonable outlay,
as well as becoming a Unique Model from a accomplished Technician.
Is from my end a very Nice Experience to be attached to.
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Okay, I stumbled across my name being mentioned so I signed up. I just want to say a few things as a retipper. First of all, it's not for everyone. Chakster's mind is clearly made up about the subject and he takes a dim view. There are a lot of assumptions to what he says, namely strict uniformity and perfection to be found with any factory made cartridge as well as zero error and perfect tolerance. The basis of his reservations go like this: Every single cartridge ever made by any manufacturer is perfectly thought out and engineered to the highest degree of precision. Any change to this formula is a degradation. Okay. We get it. Makes sense. Now, to poke some holes. Chakster himself says to buy a slew of the same model of cartridge to get an idea of what the cartridge is supposed to sound like. Hidden in this advice is Chakster's own observation that many individual examples of the same exact model of cartridge are going to sound different from each other even though they use all the same parts, are built by the same people and must have the same degree of quality in their construction which is higher quality than any retipper can provide. But if this is the case, then how does one explain why these cartridges that should all be uniformly exactly the same and perfect sound so different from each other? Next assumption: Cartridge manufacturers use exclusive parts that are available only to them. This is partially true. I have never been able to get the gold plated tapered boron cantilever that Audio-Technica offers except by purchasing an Audio-Techica stylus at retail. No one else to my knowledge uses anything but off the shelf stock production items by the cantilever/diamond manufacturers with the exception that Lyra uses a 3/70 micron Ogura diamond on many of their cartridges, which is a diamond formula that is contractually exclusive to Lyra. I can't buy them from Ogura without causing Ogura to violate their exclusive contract with Lyra in other words. But are the diamonds really 3/70 in every case? Consider that most diamonds, if you read the QC reports when you order them, shows that there is a lot of variation when you order. If I were to order 4/70 from Ogura, which would not violate the exclusive contract with Lyra, then I would probably end up with a couple of 3/70. But who would know? I wouldn't. The Audio-Technica MicroLine is no different than the Namiki Micro Ridge except that it could be that those Micro Ridge that come out of production conforming to a 2.5/75 whatever it is dimension will be shipped to A-T but all the rest will be sold as Micro Ridge. So if a 3/80 comes out, it's a Micro Ridge. If a 2.5/75 comes out, it's a MicroLine. But what about a 2.5/80? The reality is that these are tiny tiny objects produce to tolerance like anything else and they aren't all the same and I could get some that are close enough to original that you wouldn't know the difference. Retippers don't consider the spirit and identity of a cartridge: Jonathan Carr says supposedly, "In over 30 years of involvement in the phono cartridge industry, I have not seen one retipper who has presented the entire story, who has effectively said "Here are the all of the considerations. Here are the cons as well as the pros. Make a wise choice that is best for you" ... " (J.Carr, 2013)" Look at Sound Smith's page. Perhaps Jonathan has never seen it, but it was there in 2013. Retippers like Peter will tell you more about the truth of cartridges than cartridge manufacturers ever will. Cartridge manufacturers want you to think that much of what they do is exclusive, but it's an industry like anything else and there are suppliers. Just like with cars of all different makes and models all riding on the same tires, or starting with the same Bosch starter, most cartridges use parts sourced by the same suppliers. There are five that I know of that supply to the manufacturing industry. Ogura, Namiki, Gyger, Synton and Nagaoka. That's it. Synton in Switzerland makes all the bonded diamonds--pretty sure on that. They also now make the black nude diamonds. Some speculation exists that Jico has a Japanese source for bonded diamonds, but I haven't found the evidence other than they do offer bonded line contacts, a source of which I have not been able to uncover. But it could also be that they purchased supplies for decades and stockpiled and so will have them for decades to come even if none have been manufactured in many years. A million bonded diamond tips can fit into a box the size of a cigarette pack. Glue on the tip: All manufacturers use glue. The very idea that there is no glue holding a diamond into place on any cantilever assembly save the solid diamond/stylus feat of engineering by Yamaha or Sony whoever it was is just not the case. Manufacturers often use less glue than a retipper will, but manufacturers will also turn their backs on you if a diamond falls off, and they do fall off. A retipper wants to make sure the diamond stays on and a retipper knows that the extra epoxy is of such low mass that it's not going to affect the ETM in any meaningful way. What might affect it is that the length of the diamonds sold as bare replacement diamonds are often longer than the originals--at least with Ogura. Typical diamond for Ogura in a boron prong fitting is about .5mm whereas the loose diamonds are .6 to .7. This makes the glue blob look bigger. Ogura can supply them shorter, but if it ever were to become an issue, which it hasn't, then maybe I would insist. Namiki uses wads of glue to hold their Micro Ridge onto a boron cantilever. So do retippers. The diamond itself is so small that the glue is negligible. If under testing I were ever to notice tracing issues, then I would use less glue. But the only stylus that is really fussy about keeping things extremely low mass is a Pickering or Stanton stylus. These really need someone who can work to the absolutely lowest mass repair possibly or you will have sibilance. This is why the aftermarket styli are often not so great. In order to keep a half size diamond butt jointed onto a boron or sapphire cantilever, I have developed a six stage process that has taken me much trial and error to perfect. I get maybe 1 in 50 returned to me for falling off. That's better than the manufacturer's record. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, then. I take enormous pride in my work. I really enjoy retipping and getting cartridges to work again. I can go on and on and on on this topic, but I only wanted to address a few points since I was sort of summoned and I have read chakster's opinions a number of times and I just wanted to respond to some of them. They are the kinds of arguments that are made when someone insists on a type of perfection that simply does not exist in this world, even by their own observations which they choose to simply ignore. Design and build process: I touched on this earlier. There are as many ways to build a cartridge as there are cartridge manufacturers. The evidence I see over and over again is that there are fewer parts than manufacturers. Most manufacturers don't make their own dampers, I suspect. They certainly do not make their own wire for the tie wires or the wire for their moving coils. They do not make their own magnets. The don't make their own aluminum tubing. They certainly do not make their own diamonds. What's left to make? Like anything, many cartridge engineers I would say are like those in any industry. They specify parts made from a certain very limited array of materials over and over again. You can have a damper made from about four different formulations of rubber, all by the same precision rubber manufacturer. Ortofon might make their own dampers. Audio-Technica probably makes their own unique moving coil assembly. Most other manufacturers probably buy them from Excel or somewhere else, but there's not a lot of competition there. So as much as some people imagine that cartridge engineers have access to an unlimited palette of materials from which to specify, there are many aspects to the design of cartridges that come down to a process that is more like any other industry. If I'm designing plumbing, I can have this pipe or that pipe, but I'm not going to actually have pipe designed from scratch for me. It's the same with cantilevers, dampers, magnets, etc. Of course there are exceptions. Koetsu is the only manufacturer supposedly to have access to the manufacture of platinum magnets. Okay, well most retippers don't need platinum magnets anyway because they aren't replacing Koetsu magnets. And I can buy my own parts too. I have wire, I have tension wire, I have rubber dampers, magnets, cantilever tubing, diamonds, etc. I will even have my own sapphire and ruby rods in .28 mm soon to which I will install my own diamonds. I even have diamonds no one else has because I found old stashes of stock from defunct manufacturers and stockpiled whatever I could and I am always looking for more. A good retipper can take your cartridge to the next level, just like a good mechanic can improve your car even if he doesn't use the exact same parts to repair your car that the dealer uses. Speaking as a retipper, I can only offer that I endeavor always to do the best work I can. Whether it is attaching a new Micro Ridge diamond onto the chipped end of a diamond cantilever on a Koetsu Coralstone Platinum or installing a bonded elliptical diamond factory mounted to a standard aluminum cantilever on a Denon DL-110, you get the same level of craftsmanship from me. I know that audiophiles don't like to see much glue at all and so I keep the glue as limited in amount as I feel that I can possibly get away with without risking creating a faulty repair. After all, I want my customer to be happy with the visual appearance of my work even if in my mind and experience, you can't hear the cement. And I certainly don't want the diamond to fall off the cartridge when it's back with the customer, maybe somewhere halfway across the globe from here. Retipping allows people to enjoy favorite cartridges again. It allows people to upgrade them if they want to, and also allows them to downgrade them if they need to. If it weren't a valuable service, I wouldn't be here. It allows me to allow people to experience cartridges they probably never would have been able to otherwise. The Micro Acoustics range of piezo cartridges is a great example. User replaceable styli for these have dried up. Without retippers, the opportunity to experience a beryllium cantilever on a piezo cartridge would simply continue to disappear. Suspension wear and age: well overstated. I have retipped probably thousands of cartridges by now, many of them decades old. There are a few examples of particular models with known issues (Shure V15 Type IV is a big one), and some others to a lesser degree, but otherwise, suspension rubbers are basically stable. Some have fragile suspensions that will likely break if the cantilever is ever broken, like the Denon DL301 MKII and almost any Audio-Technica, and others just go soft over time like some Yamahas whose suspension donut simply liquifies and actually evaporates. Supex SD901 Super (but not the SD900 Super or any other Supex in my experience, all of which are extremely stable) just turns to goop most of the time. Storage conditions are more of a predictor of whether a suspension will be bad. But most people will store a broken cartridge in a dark, cool environment away from moisture, like the sock drawer, as a matter of instinct. In the end, going with a retipper is a personal decision. Some people will always advise never to use a retipper or to buy a retipped cartridge. Okay, fair enough. Perhaps they had a bad experience with retipping. It happens. A bad retipping experience got me started in this trade, so I actually have bad retipping to thank, ironically enough. But many would advise it and do advise it based on positive experience because it can be extremely positive and should be. Okay, that's it for me. I chimed in a lot more than I had planned to and I could have a lot more to say, but I'll just end here. |
@needlestein, glad you showed up and thanks for your input. Enjoy the music
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Okay, I stumbled across my name being mentioned so I signed up. I just want to say a few things as a retipper. First of all, it’s not for everyone. Chakster’s mind is clearly made up about the subject and he takes a dim view. There are a lot of assumptions to what he says, namely strict uniformity and perfection to be found with any factory made cartridge as well as zero error and perfect tolerance. The basis of his reservations go like this: Every single cartridge ever made by any manufacturer is perfectly thought out and engineered to the highest degree of precision. Any change to this formula is a degradation. Okay. We get it. Makes sense. Now, to poke some holes.
I’m not interested in weak cartridges or average level carts, those inferior cartridges can be upgraded like those cheap oldschool broadcast Denon 103, but I am talking about very good cartridges, exceptional performers and you can’t upgrade them (or you can only pretend to upgrade them, if fact you can return them back to life at certain cost if the owner willing to pay that, you’re biased to sell this service). I often referring to exotic MM cartridges, re-tipping or refurbishing MM is not worth it because original styli available (sometimes very hard to find, but available from time to time), the rest is degradation and waste of money. If one MM is broken then another top quality MM can be even better (definitely better than refurbished MM).
Regarding some old MC cartridges I don’t understand why anyone have to proceed with a third party re-tipping or refurbishing service if another working cartridges available for sale? Maybe those Koetsu owners suffering, because the cartridge is extremely expensive and they can save a lot on a third party re-tip, but why then buy a Koetsu if you can’t afford factory service in Japan from Koetsu? This is just an example of strange human behavior.
Chakster himself says to buy a slew of the same model of cartridge to get an idea of what the cartridge is supposed to sound like. Hidden in this advice is Chakster’s own observation that many individual examples of the same exact model of cartridge are going to sound different from each other even though they use all the same parts, are built by the same people and must have the same degree of quality in their construction which is higher quality than any retipper can provide. But if this is the case, then how does one explain why these cartridges that should all be uniformly exactly the same and perfect sound so different from each other?
If a cartridge from one manufacturer sound different from sample to sample then this is a very bad manufacturer. I’m happy to buy many samples of rare vintage MM because they are exceptional and I like the way they sound. To make sure those models are top quality I have to buy many and compare them to other MM, MI and LOMC. I’m looking for cartridges in perfect condition like new or even unused NOS. Never owned two samples of one NOS cartridge that can sound different.
Next assumption: Cartridge manufacturers use exclusive parts that are available only to them. This is partially true. I have never been able to get the gold plated tapered boron cantilever that Audio-Technica offers except by purchasing an Audio-Techica stylus at retail.
You’re not able to buy not only exclusive Gold-Plated Boron PIPE cantilevers made for AT only, I want to remind you that Beryllium cantilevers are no longer available for anyone in the business. You are not able to get short Dynavector prism Ruby or DIAMOND cantilevers, because it’s Dynavector’s exclusive. You can’t buy Boron cantilevers with attached Pipe in font of it, because it’s ZYX exclusive. What else? SONY Diamond cantilever and stylus tip is one piece of diamond. I can remind you about extremely rare Grace Ceramic Pipe cantilevers exclusively made for Grace in the 80’s, but i’m sure nobody even know it’s exist.
Glue on the tip: All manufacturers use glue. The very idea that there is no glue holding a diamond into place on any cantilever assembly save the solid diamond/stylus feat of engineering by Yamaha or Sony whoever it was is just not the case. Manufacturers often use less glue than a retipper will, but manufacturers will also turn their backs on you if a diamond falls off, and they do fall off. A retipper wants to make sure the diamond stays on and a retipper knows that the extra epoxy is of such low mass that it’s not going to affect the ETM in any meaningful way.
Namiki uses wads of glue to hold their Micro Ridge onto a boron cantilever. So do retippers. The diamond itself is so small that the glue is negligible. If under testing I were ever to notice tracing issues, then I would use less glue. But the only stylus that is really fussy about keeping things extremely low mass is a Pickering or Stanton stylus. These really need someone who can work to the absolutely lowest mass repair possibly or you will have sibilance. This is why the aftermarket styli are often not so great.
Modern cartridges is not what i;m talking about, some of them are indeed got cantilevers/styli from the same suppliers, but there are an exceptions too. Reto Luigi Andreoli (trained by Garrott Brothers) is not the one who will buy any parts for his Bluelectic cartridges from well known suppliers. How about his Synthobionic cantilever ? Many cartridge designers doing their own thing and very proud of it!
I’m sorry, but you can’t do this like the Japanese manufacturer 30 years ago. This is SONY Boron pipe with press-fit diamond. Where is the glue here? Another example of the Boron PIPE (not available for any manufacturer nowadays) is Grace - LEVEL II BR/MR, again press-fit and it’s Boron, no glue. Technics did nearly the same and what makes those MM cartridges so special is extremely low effective mass (because of the very special cantilever and stylus combo).
In my opinion it’s weird to retip MM cartridges like Stanton or Pickering or any MM cartridges, because original styli are still available NOS. Titanium pipe cantilever and no glue again. It’s Victor X1IIe. How anyone can re-tip this ?
I take enormous pride in my work. I really enjoy retipping and getting cartridges to work again. I can go on and on and on on this topic, but I only wanted to address a few points since I was sort of summoned and I have read chakster’s opinions a number of times and I just wanted to respond to some of them. They are the kinds of arguments that are made when someone insists on a type of perfection that simply does not exist in this world, even by their own observations which they choose to simply ignore. All pictures above made by myself using my own cartridges and I have many more. I have nothing against your job, hobby or business. I want to spread the light a bit on rare and exotic cartridges that simply impossible to re-tip without degrade the quality in my opinion. Re-tipper of refurbished carts like that are no longer unique. There are some exceptional vintage MM cartridges, some of them are not very expensive compared to modern LOMC.
Suspension wear and age: well overstated. I have retipped probably thousands of cartridges by now, many of them decades old. There are a few examples of particular models with known issues (Shure V15 Type IV is a big one), and some others to a lesser degree, but otherwise, suspension rubbers are basically stable. Some have fragile suspensions that will likely break if the cantilever is ever broken, like the Denon DL301 MKII and almost any Audio-Technica, and others just go soft over time like some Yamahas whose suspension donut simply liquifies and actually evaporates. Supex SD901 Super (but not the SD900 Super or any other Supex in my experience, all of which are extremely stable) just turns to goop most of the time. Storage conditions are more of a predictor of whether a suspension will be bad. But most people will store a broken cartridge in a dark, cool environment away from moisture, like the sock drawer, as a matter of instinct.
All those are mediocre level cartridges, except for Audio-Technica, and I disagree that AT have weak suspension, I bought so many AT moving magnet carts (top models in many samples) from the 80’s and they are all just fine, no problem with suspension (AT-ML150, AT-ML170, AT-ML180). |
Okay so we disagree on a lot of points, but your claim that you are only talking about really out there one-off cartridges is not supported by your posts. You started by questioning why someone would retip a Grace F9 when NOS is available. To many people a Grace F9, for no other reason than it’s moving magnet, is a cheap cartridge that no one should bother with. One who shares these views would not bother with that cartridge at all whether NOS or not.
Also the number of original F9 styli in the world is very limited. It just makes sense to keep them going if you can. The exact replacement diamond is still available from Ogura, so what’s the difference? An NOS stylus can be bad too. A retipper will check performance of the completed stylus. You can’t get that with a sealed NOS.
By the way, I press fit diamonds in and out of cantilevers. The glue is insurance. Other designs don’t allow for press fit, like boron or gemstone. Glue is used in the trade by the manufacturers. End of story
Anyway, I’ve said all I need to say. Those who think retipping is a good idea will agree and those who think retipping is madness will not be persuaded. Everyone enjoys their hobby in different ways.
The feedback I receive from happy customers is phenomenal and I feel great helping them to get the most out of what their idea of enjoying their hobby is. I’ve never been someone to race cartridges against each other and determine a winner. I think that’s an asset when I can find something to like about just about any cartridge.
I went from retipping the diamond cantilever on a Koetsu Coralstone Platinum Diamond with a Namiki Micro Ridge to retipping a Decca Deram with a .6 mil bonded conical set into a self-made enlarging sleeve as the very next assignment. Original Decca Deram styli are highly valued and the aftermarket ones are made out of the wrong kind of material to work well. No one else bothers with these cartridges or styli to my knowledge. The Deccas cantilever is just as odd and different and unique as the Koetsu’s. I enjoyed repairing both immensely. That’s what’s in it for me.
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joe, i also add my thanks to you for chiming in
always good to hear highly informed/involved parties sharing their experiences and perspectives, divergent as they may be
this forum is at its best when these views are shared and debated, then readers interested in the debate can decide and vote with their feet and wallets |
Couple more points: there are no gold-plated boron pipe cantilevers available to anyone unless they find NOS somewhere. Not sure there ever was a gold-plated boron pipe cantilever in production to begin with If there was, it’s the first I’ve heard of it.
To criticize a Koetsu owner who doesn’t have the money, or maybe who does have the money but who doesn’t believe their cartridge needs to be completely stripped out and replaced as demonstrating “strange behavior,” is just snobbery. What if a Koetsu owner knocked their diamond out during initial set up? In fact, most damage happens at this critical phase. Sending the cartridge to Koetsu for their outrageous pricing to do work that is totally unnecessary: please explain to me how that is not strange and wasteful human behavior.
And a Koetsu is hardly an exotic cartridge anymore. The cantilevers and diamond they use are purchased directly off the shelf from Ogura. I can buy them and so can you. These are not third party parts. There are no third party manufacturers of nude line contact diamonds, period. The only finished diamond manufacturer that even comes close to the definition of “third party” is Expert Stylus Co. since they manufacture the “Paratrace” knock offs of the van den Hul 1 and van den Hul 2. But even those aren’t knock offs because they also manufacture the actual van den Hul 1 and van den Hul 2 for van den Hul. They get to make the Paratrace for themselves under the licensing agreement which is highly unusual, but shows the kind of power the manufacturer of such a scarce item can wield.
So, ignoring the very recent emergence of the Swiss black nude diamonds, to suggest that inferior nude diamonds could even exist shows a lack of basic knowledge of the state of the industry. I can buy the OEM diamonds from Ogura, Namiki and Gyger and so can you. Same even for other cartridges like the top of the line Dynavectors and others. So why not use a retipper who can help you, get you excellent service and fast turnaround? And why criticize and put people down as strange who make choices that you disagree with, particularly when you don’t have the imagination to conjure up a situation where spending thousands of dollars on unnecessary work doesn’t make sense, and conclude that the truth comes down solely to a lack of money. That’s ridiculous.
Incidentally, I would not be at all surprised if the black nude diamonds continue to be refined to the point that they start competing in the high end OEM marketplace as well. There’s is no reason why Synton can’t continue to develop that item into having the same level of quality as Ogura, Gyger and Namiki. The elliptical they produce already has a contact patch more like a fine line than an elliptical as it is, and the shaping and polishing is definitely more true ellipsoid. The block is pretty large though. If they could reduce the mass, which they probably will, it could be as good as anything else on the market in time.
You also said it makes no sense to retip any moving magnet cartridge when original styli are available. If they are not, buy a new cartridge.
Why? Here’s something you are missing. Since the M97xE went out of production, there are people who want a new stylus but spending $150 or $200 which is the price they go for now is too much. Also, lots of people don’t have the ability or notion to remove their cartridge or set it up again and align it. They maybe don’t have the vision, the dexterity, the knowledge, the time or the inclination. They can send me their stylus and for a good price they can have their original N97xE retipped to a nude Ogura PE on an upgrade aluminum cantilever and install their stylus again without having to realign the whole set up. The customer feedback has been outstanding and appreciative.
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@needlestein To criticize a Koetsu owner who doesn’t have the money, or maybe who does have the money but who doesn’t believe their cartridge needs to be completely stripped out and replaced as demonstrating “strange behavior,” is just snobbery. there has been an ongoing pandemic of snobbery on this forum for the last 20-30 years... :) many longtime posters are infected... i myself not immune... see threads of cables, amplifiers, speakers, not to mention things analog to quote the orange man, it is what it is |
I’ve never understood the reasons for objecting so strongly to a cartridge re-tip.
My experience is limited. I had an old Monster Cable Sigma Genesis 2000 LOMC that was my favorite cartridge of all time. It is also the only cartridge in all my years as an audiophile that I damaged - my fuzzy sweater sleeve caught the stylus and ripped it clear off. That was before I realized that a cartridge could be retipped, but long after MC got out of the cartridge biz. (I think the MC cartridges were made for them by Zyx.)
For some reason, I put the cartridge away in a drawer and by the time I found it again years later I’d learned about Soundsmith’s retipping service. Figuring I had little to lose, I shipped it off to Peter & Co.
Memory being what it is, it’s difficult to say whether it’s identical to the original. No matter - it sounds fantastic and is easily worth the few hundred it cost me to have it refurbished.
When it wears out, Ill send it to be retipped again.
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Memory being what it is, it's difficult to say whether it's identical to the original. No matter - it sounds fantastic and is easily worth the few hundred it cost me to have it refurbished. ...and that's the point, ain't it? excuse the unintended pun... and all the egomania and snobbery aside |
@needlestein mentions something really important about building great carts. Grading. Parts have tolerances. If you are building something great , and more than one, a system of grading parts must be implemented. It is my opinion that ALL the great audio gear is heavily influenced by excellent building practice and excellent builders. It takes more than fancy parts to be at the top levels...
Oh and thanks to all the good and dedicated retippers out there!
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My experience is limited. I had an old Monster Cable Sigma Genesis 2000 LOMC that was my favorite cartridge of all time. This is another great reason. Some cartridge are just special to some people and a new one won’t do it. Had someone recently send me one of these with a missing diamond. They sent me a message about how they heard bad things about retippers, how it won’t sound the same, how the quality is poor, how it’s hit and miss, but he just loved the Sigma Genesis 2000 and he didn’t have any other alternative. So, reluctantly, but hopefully, he sent it to me. I put a new nude elliptical onto the end of the original boron cantilever that was only a little bit broken at the very tip—retaining 98% of its original length. As soon as he got it, he sent me a glowing email about how happy he was to have the Genesis 2000 playing again and he said it sounded the exact same as before. His skepticism all those years, he felt, was unfounded and he’d only wished he’d retipped it sooner. I have a million stories like that. |
I’m glad @needlestein jumped aboard here, with some fresh views on a subject that has been beaten to death here with the same old arguments.
Question for @chakster - I know you favor vintage cartridges, I have a friend who is also a big believer in them and says he is able to find old stock cartridges with little to no wear. Leaving aside the difficulty of determining this without a microscope and the knowledge of what the stylus shape should be in the first place, how does one avoid the hardening of the suspension parts over time?
I’ve used various retippers over the years from Peter, to A.J. Van den Hul to Steve Leung, for various cartridges, involving different kinds of work- in one instance, Peter replaced the stylus on a high end moving coil cartridge that was worn but retained the original cantilever.
More frequently, I’ll simply upgrade a cartridge rather than retip it. I did have Koetsu retip a Jade Platinum and when the other Koetsu I have reaches the end of its useful life, I’ll probably have that rebuilt by Koetsu- the cost is high, but is less costly than buying a new Koetsu (it would seem that the more expensive the Koetsu, the smaller the relative cost of rebuild is, no?)
Bill Hart
PS @Teo_Audio-- can you tell us more about this low cost cartridge you are introducing? I checked your website and did not see any mention of it.
Thanks.
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Question for @chakster - I know you favor vintage cartridges, I have a friend who is also a big believer in them and says he is able to find old stock cartridges with little to no wear. Leaving aside the difficulty of determining this without a microscope and the knowledge of what the stylus shape should be in the first place, how does one avoid the hardening of the suspension parts over time? You cartridge can be inspected by PRO if you wish to (for about $30), but i trust my ears, if a cartridge sound great I don’t need an inspection under microscope, I have a several macro lens for iPhone, my ears, some nice test records and music (and a bunch of amazing cartridges to compare one sample to another in a proper sound system or using headphones). My passion is MM or MI cartridges, not vintage LOMC (even if I have some). Out of about 60 cartridges only 2 used samples were bad - this is my own experience (one of them is Technics EPS 100 and 205 series, another one is Glanz 71). The rest of the cartridges is a pure joy! Nothing wrong with rubber damper if you know the right manufacturers. You must look for specific models of cartridges or certain brands. It’s about experience and knowledge. You can make a stop list of cartridges / brands too. Technics is one of them! Suspension is softened, not hardened. Those cartridges must be avoided. At the same time most of the vintage MM are high compliance, if you believe that rubber damper can be stiffer in time then put your cartridge on Hi-Fi News TEST LP and measure resonance (and compliance). Even if (in theory) an old 40cu cartridge is 30cu now, this is still high compliance and nothing wrong with that! If you think a low compliance cartridge suspension is too stiff over the years then i want to remind you about FR-7fz which is a very low compliance LOMC with sealed suspension that last forever! One of the best low compliance LOMC in my opinion. If you think a high compliance MM cartridge became a low compliance (which is impossible) then throw away that junk stylus, buy original replacement stylus in perfect condition and keep on using this cart. Maybe you lose $300 on that OG stylus, but a third party re-tip will cost about the same. I must admit that my journey into the world of vintage top of the line cartridges started after I tried some of the most expensive high-end LOMC cartridges with a price tag up to $5k. On audiogon many people referring to vintage MM cartridges they bought and used 40 years ago, this opinion is irrelevant today, simply because of the faulty memories (it’s impossible to remember a sound character of a cartridge you tried when you was 30 years younger, also the system at that time is not what we have today). |
Dear @needlestein : Enligthed overall information for all of us but for the person you posted because he " forgoted " to tell you he in reality is a seller and that's what he does.
Years ago when I started to buy MM/MI cartridges I bougth " hundreds " of them to test it and discover which ones were the better performers.
All the samples came used or NOS ones and in several models I had to buy 3-4 samples of the same models because even that the sellers said were ok it was not in that way but I had faulty samples ( several. ) not only with the used ones but with NOS/sealed cartridges too.
I bougth too NOS stylus replacements and here some were ok but other did not works at the waited quality levels.
So NOS on vintage cartridges is warranty of almost nothing.
But the interesting issue is that having 2-3 in good working condition samples I started to send some of them ( the better performers ) to re-tippers ( even that the cartridges did not need it because were working fine. ) to find out if with the today better stylus shapes and better diamonds that were better skilled/manufactured than 50+ years ago and using boron cantilever instead than aluminum or beryllium or golden cantilevers and see if could be an improvement and even in the really top MM/MI vintage cartridges as the Technics EPC100C MK4 ( stand alone version. ) in all the re-tipped samples these ones performed and performs way better and I mean by a wide margin that the original cartridges, no exception all the retipped outperformed the originals.
It's an absolute false myth that the original are better that a re.-tipped one, totally false and I can prove it. Obviously that that seller always goes against re-tipping because his busine$$$ can disappears.
Many of the re-tipping wok with my cartridges were made in Germany and through vdH but I use too SS and other re-tippers as Andy to name one of them.
Where I'm against re.tipping is with the top of the line today LOMC cartridges that my advise is doing that job through the manufacturer no matters what.
J.Carr posted years ago that cartridge manufacturers always are thinking how to improve their top designs and at some times they made small changes in those cartridges with out " shout " out there because the changes are so small that does not needs a MK2 version or the like, so he posted that when we send the cartridge to the manufacturer the cartridge we receive in return not only is an original one but comes with those " small " changes that improved his quality performance and that that cartridge sounds in the way the designer planned that he test it through his self voicing work.
So, any vintage MM/MI/LOMC cartridge sample will performs with higher quality levels that before and better than ever no matters what and I'm not selling nothing but trying to help other audiophiles/music lovers that as me want it the best sounds/MUSIC reproduction quality levels.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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@needlestein : About the glue usend to fix the stylus tip you are rigth too but that seller likes to intimidates/distress to the audiophiles with his photos that at the end means nothing.
I had some first hand experiences with top vintage and today cartridges where with out notice one day when the cartridge hits the LP surface we note that something is wrong and what is wrong is that the stylus tip is not " there " any more and we try to find out in the LP surface or around there but we can't see it.
This kind of experience was once with a top Audio Technica LOMC that's a manufacturer I respect a lot and I owned/own almost all its vintage and today MM/LOMC models including the great Signet ones that's is part of the AT group.
Other experience about that comes to my mind happened in the top room/system of an Agoner and reviewer that lives in Houston when I was there for the firts time and he had mounted in his Rockport TT a Lyra Titan top of the line cartridge: when the cartridge been in touch with the LP surface both of us knew something was terrible wrong and he had no explanation about because he was listened the last nigth his system and everything were fine but " today " the problem was that the stylus tip just " gone " and we are talking of a new Lyra Titan.
I remember too that when I bougth my first Ortofon LOMC MC-2000 after less than 60 play hours one day the stylus tip just take a " fligth ".
Not many years ago when Ortofon ( by coincidence . ) puts in the market its Anna cartridge some owners had that kind of stylus tip " disappears act ".
In all those cases there were no mishandling of the cartridges, just happens.
I think that when a cartridge is/was a good performer no re-tipper can makes its sounds bad or with lower quality performance levels that when in original shape.
@jjss49 your re-tipping experiences were very good and in this thread there is no single post where one audiophile said the re-tipped cartridge sounds in poor way . All experiences are good experiences.
Now, a re-tipping job is made by a human been and no one is perfect and around of thousands of thousands re-tipped cartridges that a re-tipper did it could exist a very few that more than by " accident " than for negligence could performs not in the way we are waiting for and it's ok because no one is perfect. So, we can wait that in absolute terms never could happens a " mistake ".
The name of the game is re-tipping or buy a new today cartridge and don't take in count those sellers that want to take money from you and that try to intimidates you against re-tipping job because the origianl sounds better because this is a totally false myth.
You don't have to believe me, just try and have first hand experiences with re-tipping and you will confirm is a very good alternative.
R.. |
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They always sound different when you get them back.
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Dear @vegasears : Yes, always because when you change the cantilever/stylus then the cartridge signature changes a little it's not as: day and nigth.
Even if you re-tipped directly with the manufacturer it will does not sounds exactly the same.
The good news is that never will sounds bad or with lower quality level performance than before be re-tipped.
R.
Nothing is perfect and in audio always exist trade-offs but here the re-tip is a " win to win " choice. !
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I tip only for exceptional service.
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mc
it is not about tipping
it is about re-tipping... |
"I tip only for exceptional service."
Two Buck Chuck. |
Dug up this old thread when a friend recently was trying to get me to buy a Glanz MFG610LX https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/glanz-mfg-610lxIn it, I stumbled across this entry by Chakster. I couldn’t believe it. I still wonder if I am reading this incorrectly. I’m new here. “The Azzurra Esoter comes with spherical/conical stulus and that’s why it is not expensive, but the MF generator is the same on all Glanz models, it’s is probably equal to Astatic MF-300 or MF-400. But Azurra is unknown and that’s why it’s cheaper than Astatic or Glanz. I got one as a present from Nandric last year, i have tested it and i was impressed, mainly because it’s easy to re-cantilever and te-rip them in Germany by Axel to upgrade this cartridge to another level! Axel can easity repair suspension as well (just for about 60 euro, i did it once with my NOS Glanz 71L).” Seems like at one point, you were all for retipping rare and different cartridges, @chakster. In this thread you are gushing about it. What changed your mind? |
Raul,
Even the very top models today still use the same diamonds from the same big three manufacturers. I have replaced the worn Gyger S on many Jan Allaerts cartridges. If you want Jan to do it, be prepared to wait a few years in line. This is what I am told.
I hear also that Lukaschek is not repairing/retipping Benz anymore, either. Not a big deal as Benz uses Namiki Micro Ridge and Gyger S and FG2.
Dynavector DRT XV-1S uses an off the shelf Ogura PF 8/30 micron 0.08 x 0.14 Vital that Ogura sells to me, too. I can also upgrade.
People who live near me have the ability to meet me in person and hand the cartridge off to me personally.
As to whether a cartridge will sound different or not, I can’t honestly comment. I can tell you that a cartridge with a worn diamond sounds much worse than a cartridge with a brand new diamond. But I don’t get the benefit of hearing the cartridge I am repairing when it was brand new, so how should I know? I read this comment all the time on forums but not one customer has ever said, “Great work! But it sounds different than it did before and I wish I bought a new one instead.” That has happened exactly zero times. Quite the opposite. People are very very happy to have their cartridge back.
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Dear @needlestein : "
Even the very top models today still use the same diamonds from the same big three manufacturers. I have replaced the worn Gyger S on many Jan Allaerts cartridges . " In specific with the very top LOMC cartridges the issue is not that re-tippers can't find out the cartridge parts but what J.Carr posted in the past and that makes a difference that no re-tipper can even. Here is what I posted about: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/teach-me-about-cartridge-retipping/post?postid=2069763#206976...Btw, Jan re-tipped my MC2 Gold in only 1.5 month not " years ". I was lucky that time. R. |
I find Mr. Carr’s statements in the topic to be overly conservative as well as a bit fanciful. There are many examples of ranges of cartridges or replaceable styli that have nothing different about them but the cantilever and diamond. So to say that in every case that a diamond and cantilever are chosen and resonant characteristics so carefully considered and then the suspension damper chosen accordingly makes it sound like there is an infinite number of bespoke formulations of compounds and materials available free to be mixed like pigment into a medium. But that is not the case and certainly not the prevailing practice. Perhaps in Mr. Carr’s world there is such fine scrutiny, but I don’t think it’s even possible. To consider the resonant characteristics of a diamond and cantilever as a starting place leads right back to the fact that there are, in fact, very few combinations of diamond and cantilever combinations to consider, and fewer today than there were a couple decades ago. There were many more manufacturers of diamonds and many more cantilever options regarding material selection and shape. Besides if one is not replacing the suspension or the damper, what difference does it make? Regardless of which damper is chosen and what diameter suspension tie wire the designer chooses, the cantilever for a Lyra is still going to be a solid boron cantilever and Ogura 3/70 diamond.
A cartridge manufacturer is in the business of selling cartridges. One of the drawbacks of the Lyra design is that it lends itself easily to repair. Mr. Carr has warned that even the Washi tape affects the compliance of the suspension and affects the sound. That’s total BS. |
Dear @needlestein : I'm not an expert of cartridges as you and other re-tippers or even audiophiles but maybe when @jcarr posted on that issue he was refering to tyny changes on the cartridge motor or in compliance, I don't know but maybe he can clarify about because through the years @jcarr always made precise/true explanations on different audio issues.
R. |
I’m sure he was, but if you aren’t messing with the suspension or the cartridge motor, it makes no difference. If you are messing with the suspension and the motor, then you aren’t retipping. You are rebuilding. In that case, then, yes, lots of things can happen that would affect sound and operation. |
Exactly an that’s the main subject on what I posted about that came from JC and that's a very high advantage for the top Lyra model owner because he will receive his cartridge with the latest up-date that no re-tipper can does because not even know what the cartridge designer made it, it is a " propietary " up-date.
R. |
