Teach me about cartridge 'retipping'

Okay, I stumbled across my name being mentioned so I signed up. I just want to say a few things as a retipper. First of all, it’s not for everyone. Chakster’s mind is clearly made up about the subject and he takes a dim view. There are a lot of assumptions to what he says, namely strict uniformity and perfection to be found with any factory made cartridge as well as zero error and perfect tolerance. The basis of his reservations go like this: Every single cartridge ever made by any manufacturer is perfectly thought out and engineered to the highest degree of precision. Any change to this formula is a degradation. Okay. We get it. Makes sense. Now, to poke some holes.

I’m not interested in weak cartridges or average level carts, those inferior cartridges can be upgraded like those cheap oldschool broadcast Denon 103, but I am talking about very good cartridges, exceptional performers and you can’t upgrade them (or you can only pretend to upgrade them, if fact you can return them back to life at certain cost if the owner willing to pay that, you’re biased to sell this service).

I often referring to exotic MM cartridges, re-tipping or refurbishing MM is not worth it because original styli available (sometimes very hard to find, but available from time to time), the rest is degradation and waste of money. If one MM is broken then another top quality MM can be even better (definitely better than refurbished MM).

Regarding some old MC cartridges I don’t understand why anyone have to proceed with a third party re-tipping or refurbishing service if another working cartridges available for sale? Maybe those Koetsu owners suffering, because the cartridge is extremely expensive and they can save a lot on a third party re-tip, but why then buy a Koetsu if you can’t afford factory service in Japan from Koetsu? This is just an example of strange human behavior.

Chakster himself says to buy a slew of the same model of cartridge to get an idea of what the cartridge is supposed to sound like. Hidden in this advice is Chakster’s own observation that many individual examples of the same exact model of cartridge are going to sound different from each other even though they use all the same parts, are built by the same people and must have the same degree of quality in their construction which is higher quality than any retipper can provide.

But if this is the case, then how does one explain why these cartridges that should all be uniformly exactly the same and perfect sound so different from each other?

If a cartridge from one manufacturer sound different from sample to sample then this is a very bad manufacturer. I’m happy to buy many samples of rare vintage MM because they are exceptional and I like the way they sound. To make sure those models are top quality I have to buy many and compare them to other MM, MI and LOMC. I’m looking for cartridges in perfect condition like new or even unused NOS. Never owned two samples of one NOS cartridge that can sound different.

Next assumption: Cartridge manufacturers use exclusive parts that are available only to them. This is partially true. I have never been able to get the gold plated tapered boron cantilever that Audio-Technica offers except by purchasing an Audio-Techica stylus at retail.

You’re not able to buy not only exclusive Gold-Plated Boron PIPE cantilevers made for AT only, I want to remind you that Beryllium cantilevers are no longer available for anyone in the business. You are not able to get short Dynavector prism Ruby or DIAMOND cantilevers, because it’s Dynavector’s exclusive. You can’t buy Boron cantilevers with attached Pipe in font of it, because it’s ZYX exclusive. What else? SONY Diamond cantilever and stylus tip is one piece of diamond. I can remind you about extremely rare Grace Ceramic Pipe cantilevers exclusively made for Grace in the 80’s, but i’m sure nobody even know it’s exist.

Glue on the tip: All manufacturers use glue. The very idea that there is no glue holding a diamond into place on any cantilever assembly save the solid diamond/stylus feat of engineering by Yamaha or Sony whoever it was is just not the case. Manufacturers often use less glue than a retipper will, but manufacturers will also turn their backs on you if a diamond falls off, and they do fall off. A retipper wants to make sure the diamond stays on and a retipper knows that the extra epoxy is of such low mass that it’s not going to affect the ETM in any meaningful way.

Namiki uses wads of glue to hold their Micro Ridge onto a boron cantilever. So do retippers. The diamond itself is so small that the glue is negligible. If under testing I were ever to notice tracing issues, then I would use less glue. But the only stylus that is really fussy about keeping things extremely low mass is a Pickering or Stanton stylus. These really need someone who can work to the absolutely lowest mass repair possibly or you will have sibilance. This is why the aftermarket styli are often not so great.

Modern cartridges is not what i;m talking about, some of them are indeed got cantilevers/styli from the same suppliers, but there are an exceptions too.

Reto Luigi Andreoli (trained by Garrott Brothers) is not the one who will buy any parts for his Bluelectic cartridges from well known suppliers. How about his Synthobionic cantilever ? Many cartridge designers doing their own thing and very proud of it!

I’m sorry, but you can’t do this like the Japanese manufacturer 30 years ago. This is SONY Boron pipe with press-fit diamond. Where is the glue here?

Another example of the Boron PIPE (not available for any manufacturer nowadays) is Grace - LEVEL II BR/MR, again press-fit and it’s Boron, no glue. Technics did nearly the same and what makes those MM cartridges so special is extremely low effective mass (because of the very special cantilever and stylus combo).

In my opinion it’s weird to retip MM cartridges like Stanton or Pickering or any MM cartridges, because original styli are still available NOS.

Titanium pipe cantilever and no glue again. It’s Victor X1IIe. How anyone can re-tip this ?

I take enormous pride in my work. I really enjoy retipping and getting cartridges to work again. I can go on and on and on on this topic, but I only wanted to address a few points since I was sort of summoned and I have read chakster’s opinions a number of times and I just wanted to respond to some of them. They are the kinds of arguments that are made when someone insists on a type of perfection that simply does not exist in this world, even by their own observations which they choose to simply ignore.

All pictures above made by myself using my own cartridges and I have many more. I have nothing against your job, hobby or business. I want to spread the light a bit on rare and exotic cartridges that simply impossible to re-tip without degrade the quality in my opinion. Re-tipper of refurbished carts like that are no longer unique. There are some exceptional vintage MM cartridges, some of them are not very expensive compared to modern LOMC.

Suspension wear and age: well overstated. I have retipped probably thousands of cartridges by now, many of them decades old. There are a few examples of particular models with known issues (Shure V15 Type IV is a big one), and some others to a lesser degree, but otherwise, suspension rubbers are basically stable. Some have fragile suspensions that will likely break if the cantilever is ever broken, like the Denon DL301 MKII and almost any Audio-Technica, and others just go soft over time like some Yamahas whose suspension donut simply liquifies and actually evaporates. Supex SD901 Super (but not the SD900 Super or any other Supex in my experience, all of which are extremely stable) just turns to goop most of the time. Storage conditions are more of a predictor of whether a suspension will be bad. But most people will store a broken cartridge in a dark, cool environment away from moisture, like the sock drawer, as a matter of instinct.

All those are mediocre level cartridges, except for Audio-Technica, and I disagree that AT have weak suspension, I bought so many AT moving magnet carts (top models in many samples) from the 80’s and they are all just fine, no problem with suspension (AT-ML150, AT-ML170, AT-ML180).

All you need to know, explained well by Jonathan Carr (Lyra) on this forum long time ago, I will just copy paste here again: 

  "Changing only the stylus will alter the sound less than if the cantilever material is changed. When a cartridge is designed, the designer will consider the moving mass (sum of the stylus, cantilever and coils), the resonant character of the cantilever, and the (sonic) propagation velocity of the cantilever (affected by the cantilever's mass and rigidity), then choose the suspension and dampers accordingly. If you change the cantilever material, you are effectively throwing the original designer's calculations away. There is much more (far more than what I have written above) to rebuilding a cartridge than affixing a new stylus or altering the cantilever. In over 30 years of involvement in the phono cartridge industry, I have not seen one retipper who has presented the entire story, who has effectively said "Here are the all of the considerations. Here are the cons as well as the pros. Make a wise choice that is best for you" ... " (J.Carr, 2013)

Could you explain why do you need a retip of MM cartridge if you can buy NOS Grace stylus, even F14 (RS14) which is huge upgrade over F9 (RS9) of any kind, the RS14 styli from Grace can be Boron/MicroRidge, Sapphire, Ruby and even Ceramic cantilever. Grace made Aluminum with MicroRidge too. This is the best diamond profile you can get, life span can be 2000 hrs! They are rare, but well worth the investment, I collect all Grace styli. Never re-tipped any of my Grace cartridges (I have many of them). SoundSmith actually rebuild Grace, it’s not a re-tip, he can install whole new cantilever with stylus tip. Re-tip is just a tiny diamond replacement on a cantilever using glue. This is original Grace Ruby, try to find any glue (more here). This is SoundSmith Ruby with glue (more here).

The situation with MC cartridges is another story, you’d better read what cartridge designers think about third party re-tip if you want to know the truth, find Jonathan Carr’s comment on this forum.

Re-tippers will always accept any cartridge for re-tip, this is their job and you will pay for it (very high price). On the other had we have people who have no idea what they are doing and always comment that re-tip is better than the original, at the same time you will find tons of re-tipped MC cartridges on ebay with less than 50 hrs on it (why people are selling them? Think about it).

Here is a typical example of SoundSmith glued stylus tip on Boron Rod cantilever (image from his site again).
And this is a factory job, nude diamond on boron rod cantilever (image under my macro lens).

What re-tippers can’t get today is Boron Pipe cantilevers (just one example), they can’t mount their styli like this. Do you see any glue? This is super riggid and super light mass construction (hollow boron pipe and stylus mounted through the laser etched hole). This is how top of the line MM or MC were made in the golden era of analog (not today). I could add more different images I made myself, but I think it’s enough to understand what I mean. Here is the side view on Boron Pipe cantilever with Nude Diamond. Like Grace it is a high compliance MM (SONY). Same Boron Pipe cantilever you can find on the best Grace models. Extremely low moving mass! Another example is Beryllium (Victor X1II), just look at this. 

Remember Technics best cartridges, this is one of mine under macro lens. Technics made the lowest possible moving mass MM cartridge (Boron Pipe cantilever). See why it’s better.

According to this Technics research:

"Somewhere in the high frequencies, every cartridge has an undesirable resonance point. Undesirable because there the frequency response curve climbs a sudden peak. If that peak is in the audible range, your records sound not as intended. That resonance frequency is determined by the total effective moving mass of the vibrating system - the summed masses of the diamond stylus and, most importantly, the cantilever and magnet, etc. To shift that harmful resonance frequency up into the high supersonics, the effective moving mass must be reduced to the lowest possible minimum. Also, too much effective moving mass increases the mechanical impedance, thereby negatively affecting the cartridge’s tracing ability."

Retippers can’t do anything like that, they don’t even have an access to those cantilevers, they are not available today (boron pipe, beryllium). What they can do is to buy what’s available and install it. Or they can glue a new tip on old cantilever, but glue will add mass etc. Re-tip or rebuild is a compromise, most likely degradation of the very special cartridge (if you have a very special one). This is why a very special cartridges must be shipped back to the manufacturer for rebuild or upgrade with a new one.  

As the owner of many vintage cartridges I must say that compliance is measurable with Hi-Fi News TEST LP. Based on my experience with more than 60 cartridges I can say that a high compliance is always a high compliance and a low compliance always a low compliance.

Stiff suspension is a myth, softened suspension is a common problem for some well know cartridges, just don’t buy them and you’re fine.

I think Lewm is not a hunter for vintage cartridges even if he has some at his vaults.
SoundSmith Grace stylus has advanced stylus profile, the original is elliptical.

But when you will try an original Grace with original MicroRidge you will not find anything better than this.

Grace offered MR styli in the 80’s with F14 and LEVEL II cartridges, your F9 is from the 70’s.

Grace upgraded the whole line of cartridges in the 80’s - they are the best from Grace.

For a person who think that every vintage cartridge must be rebuild because of that myth (about suspension) my advice to pass on it and stick to the new cartridges. Very simple.

People are buying top vintage cartridges not because they want them to be rebuild by someone with new parts. Buying many different samples of the same vintage cart is the best test, after purchasing many samples of the same model you can judge about the quality of this model. If you can’t do it yourself you’d better ask those who purchased many and tested many. A top vintage cartridge is valuable ONLY when it’s perfect. Some people sell junk, don’t buy from them. Audiophiles (not dealers) is the best source for used cartridges in best condition, they you will get exactly what you paid for (not a junk sample with dead suspension).

New cartridges can have many more problems than an old ones!
Suspension collapse quickly even on $5000 LOMC made today (if you think all new is better then how can you explain that?)  

My advice: NEVER BUY RE-TIPPED CARTRIDGES! (exception is a factory retip/rebuild by the manufacturer).
Always search for the original sample even if it will cost more. Only an average cartridge can be upgraded with different cantilever/stylus, a perfect cartridge can only be downgraded with different parts coming from a third-party vendor. 

P.S. SoundSmith cartridges is not the answer to all questions, they are not the best in the world, some of them in the new line are so ugly (sorry, previous design was aesthetically much better in my opinion).  

Speakers can be upgraded with different parts. Amplifiers, CD players, phono stages, turntables, tone arms- even speaker cables, power cords and interconnects can be upgraded in the aftermarket. Only phono cartridges cannot.

Re-tippers can buy only what’s available from Namiki or Ogura (or maybe some others), while the cartridge manufacturers can order exclusive parts patented/manufactured for their own cartridges only. But the question is not even a quality of parts, but a calculation of mass, resonances etc that only original designed can do manufacturing/voicing his own high-end cartridge. Sometime this is a long process and they try different parts before choosing what they are using. Why do you think re-tipper in his garage can do better if he don’t even have an access to those exclusive parts manufactured only for the specific cartridge designers?

You can upgrade weak parts in the products (like amps whatever), not sure how you can upgrade a reference class, you can only change something pretending for upgrade, but only certain kind of people have this habit, most of them are very strange, the best of them design their own products instead of upgrading others.

Cartridge is the most important part in analog chain.

Everyboby knows JICO, their stylus SAS (bury, boron, sapphire) replacements for old MM cartridges is an upgrade for mediocre cartridges, but not an upgrade for top of the line reference class cartridges. Many original styli are much better than best SAS replacement. With MM you can immediately change your stylus and compare, with MC people are waiting for their cartridges from a re-tipper for a 1-5 month and they can’t compare re-tipped and the original, but i think it’s very important to compare side by side the original and re-tipped sample (I did that with some very rare re-tipped/refurbished MM).

Another weird habit is to invest over $1k to a $300 cartridge, some people love it. Denon 103 is one of them, instead of buying a nice $1500 cartridge they are happy to invest $1000-1500 into a $300 cartridge and raving about the result they are hearing. 

Could you please recall exact models you’re talking about. And why don’t you explain in details what are you talking about? What new ideas, materials, please tell us.

Because I can simply recall the best MM cartridges that are unbeatable today and the materials used in their design also not available today!

This thread is about re-tipping, don’t forget. Cartridge designers like Jonathan Carr explained why you altering the sound when you change a tip or the whole cantilever,

If you want to go off-topic:

Let me know if you ever tried this brand new cartridge or that one.
Very interesting design, the only problem is the price, this is how people sell new ideas today, are you willing to buy $14 000 cartridge ?

No one can provide any information about this new material for cantilevers, can you tell anything? It’s NEW, do you think it’s better ?

Probably everyone agree that Boron is one of the best material for cantilever, but nothing new here. Also nothing new in the shape of the diamonds, same old thing. What else ? A coid wire ? Also nothing new. A low impedance MM, or high impedance MM... Moving Iron, Induced Magnet, Moving Flux whatever, nothing new.

I really want to read what is new in MM/ MI design today that wasn't there in the 80's ? 

Question for @chakster - I know you favor vintage cartridges, I have a friend who is also a big believer in them and says he is able to find old stock cartridges with little to no wear. Leaving aside the difficulty of determining this without a microscope and the knowledge of what the stylus shape should be in the first place, how does one avoid the hardening of the suspension parts over time?

You cartridge can be inspected by PRO if you wish to (for about $30), but i trust my ears, if a cartridge sound great I don’t need an inspection under microscope, I have a several macro lens for iPhone, my ears, some nice test records and music (and a bunch of amazing cartridges to compare one sample to another in a proper sound system or using headphones).

My passion is MM or MI cartridges, not vintage LOMC (even if I have some). Out of about 60 cartridges only 2 used samples were bad - this is my own experience (one of them is Technics EPS 100 and 205 series, another one is Glanz 71). The rest of the cartridges is a pure joy!

Nothing wrong with rubber damper if you know the right manufacturers. You must look for specific models of cartridges or certain brands. It’s about experience and knowledge.

You can make a stop list of cartridges / brands too. Technics is one of them! Suspension is softened, not hardened. Those cartridges must be avoided. At the same time most of the vintage MM are high compliance, if you believe that rubber damper can be stiffer in time then put your cartridge on Hi-Fi News TEST LP and measure resonance (and compliance). Even if (in theory) an old 40cu cartridge is 30cu now, this is still high compliance and nothing wrong with that! If you think a low compliance cartridge suspension is too stiff over the years then i want to remind you about FR-7fz which is a very low compliance LOMC with sealed suspension that last forever! One of the best low compliance LOMC in my opinion.

If you think a high compliance MM cartridge became a low compliance (which is impossible) then throw away that junk stylus, buy original replacement stylus in perfect condition and keep on using this cart. Maybe you lose $300 on that OG stylus, but a third party re-tip will cost about the same. 

I must admit that my journey into the world of vintage top of the line cartridges started after I tried some of the most expensive high-end LOMC cartridges with a price tag up to $5k.

On audiogon many people referring to vintage MM cartridges they bought and used 40 years ago, this opinion is irrelevant today, simply because of the faulty memories (it’s impossible to remember a sound character of a cartridge you tried when you was 30 years younger, also the system at that time is not what we have today).

I read this comment all the time on forums but not one customer has ever said, “Great work! But it sounds different than it did before and I wish I bought a new one instead.” That has happened exactly zero times. Quite the opposite. People are very very happy to have their cartridge back.

People often know nothing about cartridges, turntables, tonearms ... etc.
Most comments are irrelevant and can’t be used as evidence that re-tipping or rebuild with different materials are any better (if the original cartridge wasn’t entry level model like those 103 that are so easy to upgrade). People suffering when their only cartridge is broken and they want to get it back to life quickly, that’s it, they are happy once it’s back to their tonearm and they can continue to enjoy their music. Most of them are even more happy when they can pay less than retail price of a brand new cartridge. But they are not an experts, they are average users of analog systems. Reading comments from such people when they are raving about retipping/rebuild you’re quickly realize that it might be their 5th cartridge in entire life (or probably first MC). Those comments are useless for those who really understand what is a good cartridge and why certain original cartridge is so special.

it would seem to me that if a retipper/rebuilder has a good idea of the exact specs of the old cartridge cantilever and tip and suspension, to the extent materials are available, he can basically try to mimic the original spec, correct?

Do you think they can look at the cartridge and understand everything about design of the cartridge and copy all the calculations made by the original designer? How?

This is why a re-tipper is not always a cartridge manufacturer or cartridge designer, some of them can’t even design their own cartridge.

There are cartridge designers and they are not a re-tippers, they do not even re-tip their own cartridges.

of course never ever perfect, but i should think they can get fairly close unless unobtanium exotic materials are called for...

There are unobtainable parts almost in every high-end cartridge from the past.

Not sure there ever was a gold-plated boron pipe cantilever in production to begin with If there was, it’s the first I’ve heard of it.

Gold-Plated BORON Pipe ..
and Gold-Plated Beryllium PIPE ..
are Audio-Technica exclusive during the late 70’s- early 90’s period, but no longer available! This is one all time favorite model and this is another (even better). Let’s get closer. Very few people know that top of the line AT-ML180 was made in two versions, as you can read on the boxes one version is Gold-Plated Boron Pipe, another version is Gold-Plated Tapered Beryllium ...

Another example of Beryllium cantilevers from different manufacturer is Victor MC and MM.

Dug up this old thread when a friend recently was trying to get me to buy a Glanz MFG610LX

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/glanz-mfg-610lx

In it, I stumbled across this entry by Chakster. I couldn’t believe it. I still wonder if I am reading this incorrectly. I’m new here.

“The Azzurra Esoter comes with spherical/conical stulus and that’s why it is not expensive, but the MF generator is the same on all Glanz models, it’s is probably equal to Astatic MF-300 or MF-400. But Azurra is unknown and that’s why it’s cheaper than Astatic or Glanz. I got one as a present from Nandric last year, i have tested it and i was impressed, mainly because it’s easy to re-cantilever and te-rip them in Germany by Axel to upgrade this cartridge to another level! Axel can easity repair suspension as well (just for about 60 euro, i did it once with my NOS Glanz 71L).”

Seems like at one point, you were all for retipping rare and different cartridges, @chakster. In this thread you are gushing about it. What changed your mind?

I’m talking about specific models of Moving Flux cartridges from Mitachi in that topic. The reason I think all those models can be upgraded is because I tried them all myself and all of them are weak compared to their top model, one of the reason why the top model is indeed TOP is different cantilever and stylus. Axel tuned suspension on my 71L (with this huge prism aluminum cantilever) and I sold it, because the 61 was absolutely amazing (with completely different original cantilever and stylus tip). And Glanz 31L with classic aluminum cantilever was different too, better than 71L, but inferior in comparison to the extremely rare Glanz 61. So I think this particular MF series deserve a Boron Rod cantilever and it’s a huge upgrade, that type of Boron Rod is exactly the same cantilever you can see on many high-end MC from Japan in the 80s and even today. As I said from the start an inferior cartridge can be upgraded by re-tippers for sure, but a top of the line cartridge can’t be upgraded by re-tippers. You can put a Boron Rod cantilever with advanced profile on $150 Azurra Esoter MF (aluminum / bonded conical) cart from Mitachi and probably it will be like $1500 Glanz 61 then. But what you can do with Glanz 61? Probably nothing to make it better.

I'm not sure what a re-tipper can do with this this broken sample of the best AT moving magnet cartridge? I don't think re-cantilevered unit can be as good as the original, believers in proper refurbishing could try :) 

P.S. All carts (and pictures of them) are from my own collection.