Teach me about cartridge 'retipping'


Thought I would throw this out there for comment by long time vinyl aficionados...

We all have cartridges we love, some are pricey treasures... but they wear out eventually even with much care and diligence in use.

There are still some good folks with excellent reputations doing retip services of various makes - Peter at SS, Andy Kim in WA, Steve Leung in NJ etc etc... not to mention some of the manufacturers of course, who still do them. It would seem to me these old craftsmen may or may not be passing along these valuable skills to younger apprentices.

I have bought a couple Grace F9 retips from Peter Ledermann - they work wonderfully. No longer having a fresh factory F9L I will never know whether they sound different.  But they sound great.

Curious to hear comments about how these retips are done, and whether they can reliably reproduce the original sound signature of the cartridge. I wonder, for instance, about how the cantilever is removed and reinstalled, relative to the suspension of the original cartridge, etc etc.  Is the suspension replaced?  What is a suspension comprised of, for example, in a typical higher end MC cart like a Dynavector a Lyra a VDH...

Of course, as time passes, the original cartridges age and I can imagine suspensions in them eventually get compromised as well...
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Showing 12 responses by needlestein

Okay, I stumbled across my name being mentioned so I signed up.  I just want to say a few things as a retipper.  First of all, it's not for everyone.  Chakster's mind is clearly made up about the subject and he takes a dim view.  There are a lot of assumptions to what he says, namely strict uniformity and perfection to be found with any factory made cartridge as well as zero error and perfect tolerance.  The basis of his reservations go like this: Every single cartridge ever made by any manufacturer is perfectly thought out and engineered to the highest degree of precision.  Any change to this formula is a degradation.  Okay.  We get it.  Makes sense.  Now, to poke some holes.

Chakster himself says to buy a slew of the same model of cartridge to get an idea of what the cartridge is supposed to sound like.  Hidden in this advice is Chakster's own observation that many individual examples of the same exact model of cartridge are going to sound different from each other even though they use all the same parts, are built by the same people and must have the same degree of quality in their construction which is higher quality than any retipper can provide. 

But if this is the case, then how does one explain why these cartridges that should all be uniformly exactly the same and perfect sound so different from each other?

Next assumption: Cartridge manufacturers use exclusive parts that are available only to them.  This is partially true.  I have never been able to get the gold plated tapered boron cantilever that Audio-Technica offers except by purchasing an Audio-Techica stylus at retail. 

No one else to my knowledge uses anything but off the shelf stock production items by the cantilever/diamond manufacturers with the exception that Lyra uses a 3/70 micron Ogura diamond on many of their cartridges, which is a diamond formula that is contractually exclusive to Lyra.  I can't buy them from Ogura without causing Ogura to violate their exclusive contract with Lyra in other words.

But are the diamonds really 3/70 in every case?  Consider that most diamonds, if you read the QC reports when you order them, shows that there is a lot of variation when you order.  If I were to order 4/70 from Ogura, which would not violate the exclusive contract with Lyra, then I would probably end up with a couple of 3/70.  But who would know?  I wouldn't. 

The Audio-Technica MicroLine is no different than the Namiki Micro Ridge except that it could be that those Micro Ridge that come out of production conforming to a 2.5/75 whatever it is dimension will be shipped to A-T but all the rest will be sold as Micro Ridge.  So if a 3/80 comes out, it's a Micro Ridge.  If a 2.5/75 comes out, it's a MicroLine.  But what about a 2.5/80?  The reality is that these are tiny tiny objects produce to tolerance like anything else and they aren't all the same and I could get some that are close enough to original that you wouldn't know the difference.

Retippers don't consider the spirit and identity of a cartridge: Jonathan Carr says supposedly, "In over 30 years of involvement in the phono cartridge industry, I have not seen one retipper who has presented the entire story, who has effectively said "Here are the all of the considerations. Here are the cons as well as the pros. Make a wise choice that is best for you" ... " (J.Carr, 2013)"  Look at Sound Smith's page.  Perhaps Jonathan has never seen it, but it was there in 2013.  Retippers like Peter will tell you more about the truth of cartridges than cartridge manufacturers ever will.  Cartridge manufacturers want you to think that much of what they do is exclusive, but it's an industry like anything else and there are suppliers.  Just like with cars of all different makes and models all riding on the same tires, or starting with the same Bosch starter, most cartridges use parts sourced by the same suppliers.  There are five that I know of that supply to the manufacturing industry.  Ogura, Namiki, Gyger, Synton and Nagaoka.  That's it.  Synton in Switzerland makes all the bonded diamonds--pretty sure on that.  They also now make the black nude diamonds.  Some speculation exists that Jico has a Japanese source for bonded diamonds, but I haven't found the evidence other than they do offer bonded line contacts, a source of which I have not been able to uncover.  But it could also be that they purchased supplies for decades and stockpiled and so will have them for decades to come even if none have been manufactured in many years.  A million bonded diamond tips can fit into a box the size of a cigarette pack.  

Glue on the tip: All manufacturers use glue.  The very idea that there is no glue holding a diamond into place on any cantilever assembly save the solid diamond/stylus feat of engineering by Yamaha or Sony whoever it was is just not the case.  Manufacturers often use less glue than a retipper will, but manufacturers will also turn their backs on you if a diamond falls off, and they do fall off.  A retipper wants to make sure the diamond stays on and a retipper knows that the extra epoxy is of such low mass that it's not going to affect the ETM in any meaningful way.  What might affect it is that the length of the diamonds sold as bare replacement diamonds are often longer than the originals--at least with Ogura.  Typical diamond for Ogura in a boron prong fitting is about .5mm whereas the loose diamonds are .6 to .7.  This makes the glue blob look bigger.  Ogura can supply them shorter, but if it ever were to become an issue, which it hasn't, then maybe I would insist.

Namiki uses wads of glue to hold their Micro Ridge onto a boron cantilever.  So do retippers.  The diamond itself is so small that the glue is negligible.  If under testing I were ever to notice tracing issues, then I would use less glue.  But the only stylus that is really fussy about keeping things extremely low mass is a Pickering or Stanton stylus.  These really need someone who can work to the absolutely lowest mass repair possibly or you will have sibilance.  This is why the aftermarket styli are often not so great.

In order to keep a half size diamond butt jointed onto a boron or sapphire cantilever, I have developed a six stage process that has taken me much trial and error to perfect.  I get maybe 1 in 50 returned to me for falling off.  That's better than the manufacturer's record.  I'll keep doing what I'm doing, then.

I take enormous pride in my work.  I really enjoy retipping and getting cartridges to work again. I can go on and on and on on this topic, but I only wanted to address a few points since I was sort of summoned and I have read chakster's opinions a number of times and I just wanted to respond to some of them.  They are the kinds of arguments that are made when someone insists on a type of perfection that simply does not exist in this world, even by their own observations which they choose to simply ignore.

Design and build process: I touched on this earlier.  There are as many ways to build a cartridge as there are cartridge manufacturers.  The evidence I see over and over again is that there are fewer parts than manufacturers.  Most manufacturers don't make their own dampers, I suspect.  They certainly do not make their own wire for the tie wires or the wire for their moving coils.  They do not make their own magnets.  The don't make their own aluminum tubing.  They certainly do not make their own diamonds.  What's left to make?

Like anything, many cartridge engineers I would say are like those in any industry.  They specify parts made from a certain very limited array of materials over and over again.  You can have a damper made from about four different formulations of rubber, all by the same precision rubber manufacturer.  Ortofon might make their own dampers.  Audio-Technica probably makes their own unique moving coil assembly.  Most other manufacturers probably buy them from Excel or somewhere else, but there's not a lot of competition there.  So as much as some people imagine that cartridge engineers have access to an unlimited palette of materials from which to specify, there are many aspects to the design of cartridges that come down to a process that is more like any other industry.  If I'm designing plumbing, I can have this pipe or that pipe, but I'm not going to actually have pipe designed from scratch for me.  It's the same with cantilevers, dampers, magnets, etc.  Of course there are exceptions.  Koetsu is the only manufacturer supposedly to have access to the manufacture of platinum magnets.  Okay, well  most retippers don't need platinum magnets anyway because they aren't replacing Koetsu magnets.

And I can buy my own parts too.  I have wire, I have tension wire, I have rubber dampers, magnets, cantilever tubing, diamonds, etc.  I will even have my own sapphire and ruby rods in .28 mm soon to which I will install my own diamonds.  I even have diamonds no one else has because I found old stashes of stock from defunct manufacturers and stockpiled whatever I could and I am always looking for more.  A good retipper can take your cartridge to the next level, just like a good mechanic can improve your car even if he doesn't use the exact same parts to repair your car that the dealer uses.

Speaking as a retipper, I can only offer that I endeavor always to do the best work I can.  Whether it is attaching a new Micro Ridge diamond onto the chipped end of a diamond cantilever on a Koetsu Coralstone Platinum or installing a bonded elliptical diamond factory mounted to a standard aluminum cantilever on a Denon DL-110, you get the same level of craftsmanship from me.  I know that audiophiles don't like to see much glue at all and so I keep the glue as limited in amount as I feel that I can possibly get away with without risking creating a faulty repair.  After all, I want my customer to be happy with the visual appearance of my work even if in my mind and experience, you can't hear the cement.  And I certainly don't want the diamond to fall off the cartridge when it's back with the customer, maybe somewhere halfway across the globe from here.

Retipping allows people to enjoy favorite cartridges again.  It allows people to upgrade them if they want to, and also allows them to downgrade them if they need to.  If it weren't a valuable service, I wouldn't be here.  It allows me to allow people to experience cartridges they probably never would have been able to otherwise.  The Micro Acoustics range of piezo cartridges is a great example.  User replaceable styli for these have dried up.  Without retippers, the opportunity to experience a beryllium cantilever on a piezo cartridge would simply continue to disappear.

Suspension wear and age: well overstated.  I have retipped probably thousands of cartridges by now, many of them decades old.  There are a few examples of particular models with known issues (Shure V15 Type IV is a big one), and some others to a lesser degree, but otherwise, suspension rubbers are basically stable.  Some have fragile suspensions that will likely break if the cantilever is ever broken, like the Denon DL301 MKII and almost any Audio-Technica, and others just go soft over time like some Yamahas whose suspension donut simply liquifies and actually evaporates.  Supex SD901 Super (but not the SD900 Super or any other Supex in my experience, all of which are extremely stable) just turns to goop most of the time. Storage conditions are more of a predictor of whether a suspension will be bad.  But most people will store a broken cartridge in a dark, cool environment away from moisture, like the sock drawer, as a matter of instinct.

In the end, going with a retipper is a personal decision.  Some people will always advise never to use a retipper or to buy a retipped cartridge.  Okay, fair enough.  Perhaps they had a bad experience with retipping.  It happens.  A bad retipping experience got me started in this trade, so I actually have bad retipping to thank, ironically enough. 

But many would advise it and do advise it based on positive experience because it can be extremely positive and should be.

Okay, that's it for me.  I chimed in a lot more than I had planned to and I could have a lot more to say, but I'll just end here.

Okay so we disagree on a lot of points, but your claim that you are only talking about really out there one-off cartridges is not supported by your posts.  You started by questioning why someone would retip a Grace F9 when NOS is available.  To many people a Grace F9, for no other reason than it’s moving magnet, is a cheap cartridge that no one should bother with.  One who shares these views would not bother with that cartridge at all whether NOS or not.

Also the number of original F9 styli in the world is very limited.  It just makes sense to keep them going if you can.  The exact replacement diamond is still available from Ogura, so what’s the difference?  An NOS stylus can be bad too.  A retipper will check performance of the completed stylus.  You can’t get that with a sealed NOS.

By the way, I press fit diamonds in and out of cantilevers.  The glue is insurance.  Other designs don’t allow for press fit, like boron or gemstone.  Glue is used in the trade by the manufacturers.  End of story

Anyway, I’ve said all I need to say.  Those who think retipping is a good idea will agree and those who think retipping is madness will not be persuaded.  Everyone enjoys their hobby in different ways.

The feedback I receive from happy customers is phenomenal and I feel great helping them to get the most out of what their idea of enjoying their hobby is.  I’ve never been someone to race cartridges against each other and determine a winner.  I think that’s an asset when I can find something to like about just about any cartridge.

I went from retipping the diamond cantilever on a Koetsu Coralstone Platinum Diamond with a Namiki Micro Ridge to retipping a Decca Deram with a .6 mil bonded conical set into a self-made enlarging sleeve as the very next assignment.  Original Decca Deram styli are highly valued and the aftermarket ones are made out of the wrong kind of material to work well.  No one else bothers with these cartridges or styli to my knowledge.  The Deccas cantilever is just as odd and different and unique as the Koetsu’s.  I enjoyed repairing both immensely.  That’s what’s in it for me.
Couple more points: there are no gold-plated boron pipe cantilevers available to anyone unless they find NOS somewhere. Not sure there ever was a gold-plated boron pipe cantilever in production to begin with If there was, it’s the first I’ve heard of it.

To criticize a Koetsu owner who doesn’t have the money, or maybe who does have the money but who doesn’t believe their cartridge needs to be completely stripped out and replaced as demonstrating “strange behavior,” is just snobbery. What if a Koetsu owner knocked their diamond out during initial set up? In fact, most damage happens at this critical phase. Sending the cartridge to Koetsu for their outrageous pricing to do work that is totally unnecessary: please explain to me how that is not strange and wasteful human behavior.

And a Koetsu is hardly an exotic cartridge anymore. The cantilevers and diamond they use are purchased directly off the shelf from Ogura. I can buy them and so can you. These are not third party parts. There are no third party manufacturers of nude line contact diamonds, period. The only finished diamond manufacturer that even comes close to the definition of “third party” is Expert Stylus Co. since they manufacture the “Paratrace” knock offs of the van den Hul 1 and van den Hul 2. But even those aren’t knock offs because they also manufacture the actual van den Hul 1 and van den Hul 2 for van den Hul. They get to make the Paratrace for themselves under the licensing agreement which is highly unusual, but shows the kind of power the manufacturer of such a scarce item can wield.

So, ignoring the very recent emergence of the Swiss black nude diamonds, to suggest that inferior nude diamonds could even exist shows a lack of basic knowledge of the state of the industry. I can buy the OEM diamonds from Ogura, Namiki and Gyger and so can you. Same even for other cartridges like the top of the line Dynavectors and others. So why not use a retipper who can help you, get you excellent service and fast turnaround? And why criticize and put people down as strange who make choices that you disagree with, particularly when you don’t have the imagination to conjure up a situation where spending thousands of dollars on unnecessary work doesn’t make sense, and conclude that the truth comes down solely to a lack of money. That’s ridiculous.

Incidentally, I would not be at all surprised if the black nude diamonds continue to be refined to the point that they start competing in the high end OEM marketplace as well. There’s is no reason why Synton can’t continue to develop that item into having the same level of quality as Ogura, Gyger and Namiki. The elliptical they produce already has a contact patch more like a fine line than an elliptical as it is, and the shaping and polishing is definitely more true ellipsoid.  The block is pretty large though.  If they could reduce the mass, which they probably will, it could be as good as anything else on the market in time.  

You also said it makes no sense to retip any moving magnet cartridge when original styli are available. If they are not, buy a new cartridge.
Why? Here’s something you are missing. Since the M97xE went out of production, there are people who want a new stylus but spending $150 or $200 which is the price they go for now is too much. Also, lots of people don’t have the ability or notion to remove their cartridge or set it up again and align it. They maybe don’t have the vision, the dexterity, the knowledge, the time or the inclination. They can send me their stylus and for a good price they can have their original N97xE retipped to a nude Ogura PE on an upgrade aluminum cantilever and install their stylus again without having to realign the whole set up. The customer feedback has been outstanding and appreciative.



My experience is limited. I had an old Monster Cable Sigma Genesis 2000 LOMC that was my favorite cartridge of all time. 
This is another great reason.  Some cartridge are just special to some people and a new one won’t do it.  Had someone recently send me one of these with a missing diamond.  They sent me a message about how they heard bad things about retippers, how it won’t sound the same, how the quality is poor, how it’s hit and miss, but he just loved the Sigma Genesis 2000 and he didn’t have any other alternative.  So, reluctantly, but hopefully, he sent it to me.  I put a new nude elliptical onto the end of the original boron cantilever that was only a little bit broken at the very tip—retaining 98% of its original length.  As soon as he got it, he sent me a glowing email about how happy he was to have the Genesis 2000 playing again and he said it sounded the exact same as before.  His skepticism all those years, he felt, was unfounded and he’d only wished he’d retipped it sooner.  I have a million stories like that.
Dug up this old thread when a friend recently was trying to get me to buy a Glanz MFG610LX

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/glanz-mfg-610lx

In it, I stumbled across this entry by Chakster.  I couldn’t believe it.  I still wonder if I am reading this incorrectly.  I’m new here.  

“The Azzurra Esoter comes with spherical/conical stulus and that’s why it is not expensive, but the MF generator is the same on all Glanz models, it’s is probably equal to Astatic MF-300 or MF-400. But Azurra is unknown and that’s why it’s cheaper than Astatic or Glanz. I got one as a present from Nandric last year, i have tested it and i was impressed, mainly because it’s easy to re-cantilever and te-rip them in Germany by Axel to upgrade this cartridge to another level! Axel can easity repair suspension as well (just for about 60 euro, i did it once with my NOS Glanz 71L).”

Seems like at one point, you were all for retipping rare and different cartridges, @chakster. In this thread you are gushing about it. What changed your mind?



Raul,

Even the very top models today still use the same diamonds from the same big three manufacturers.  I have replaced the worn Gyger S on many Jan Allaerts cartridges.  If you want Jan to do it, be prepared to wait a few years in line.  This is what I am told.  
I hear also that Lukaschek is not repairing/retipping Benz anymore, either.  Not a big deal as Benz uses Namiki Micro Ridge and Gyger S and FG2.

Dynavector DRT XV-1S uses an off the shelf Ogura PF 8/30 micron 0.08 x 0.14 Vital that Ogura sells to me, too.  I can also upgrade. 
People who live near me have the ability to meet me in person and hand the cartridge off to me personally.

As to whether a cartridge will sound different or not, I can’t honestly comment.  I can tell you that a cartridge with a worn diamond sounds much worse than a cartridge with a brand new diamond.  But I don’t get the benefit of hearing the cartridge I am repairing when it was brand new, so how should I know?  I read this comment all the time on forums but not one customer has ever said, “Great work!  But it sounds different than it did before and I wish I bought a new one instead.”  That has happened exactly zero times.  Quite the opposite.  People are very very happy to have their cartridge back.  

I find Mr. Carr’s statements in the topic to be overly conservative as well as a bit fanciful.  There are many examples of ranges of cartridges or replaceable styli that have nothing different about them but the cantilever and diamond.  So to say that in every case that a diamond and cantilever are chosen and resonant characteristics so carefully considered and then the suspension damper chosen accordingly makes it sound like there is an infinite number of bespoke formulations of compounds and materials available free to be mixed like pigment into a medium.  But that is not the case and certainly not the prevailing practice.  Perhaps in Mr. Carr’s world there is such fine scrutiny, but I don’t think it’s even possible.  To consider the resonant characteristics of a diamond and cantilever as a starting place leads right back to the fact that there are, in fact, very few combinations of diamond and cantilever combinations to consider, and fewer today than there were a couple decades ago.  There were many more manufacturers of diamonds and many more cantilever options regarding material selection and shape.  Besides if one is not replacing the suspension or the damper, what difference does it make?  Regardless of which damper is chosen and what diameter suspension tie wire the designer chooses, the cantilever for a Lyra is still going to be a solid boron cantilever and Ogura 3/70 diamond.

A cartridge manufacturer is in the business of selling cartridges.  One of the drawbacks of the Lyra design is that it lends itself easily to repair.  Mr. Carr has warned that even the Washi tape affects the compliance of the suspension and affects the sound.  That’s total BS.
I’m sure he was, but if you aren’t messing with the suspension or the cartridge motor, it makes no difference.  If you are messing with the suspension and the motor, then you aren’t retipping. You are rebuilding.  In that case, then, yes, lots of things can happen that would affect sound and operation.
“Exactly an that’s the main subject on what I posted about that came from JC and that's a very high advantage for the top Lyra model owner because he will receive his cartridge with the latest up-date that no re-tipper can does because not even know what the cartridge designer made it, it is a " propietary " up-date.

R.”

Are you convinced by this argument?  Lyra doesn’t even retip their own cartridges anymore from what I understand.  So the point is moot.  I’m guessing the only “proprietary” updates that would really be happening at the retip level and not the rebuild level would include something like the installation of Lyra’s exclusive 3/70 Ogura Vital stone.  Or maybe someone would send in a model with a Namiki Micro Ridge like an old Delos.  Lyra doesn’t use the Micro Ridge anymore, so the proprietary update would be, what exactly?  A different stone anyway?  I can play that game, too.  Want a Lyra, but you’d really rather have a Fritz Gyger FG2 on it or maybe even an FG S?  Send it to me.  I’ll take care of you.  Want a 2.5/75 Ogura that is 0.5 micron finer on the tracing edge and 5 microns longer on the scanning edge than a standard Lyra?  Send it to me.  I’ll take care of you.  
Guys who hot rod cars and motorcycles don’t fall for these arguments to only use genuine replacement parts in their projects.  That’s the fun of hot rodding.  These manufacturer arguments that hot rodding is always bad practice are pretty thin, don’t you think?  What if you want a sapphire cantilever?  You seriously aren’t going to do it because Jonathan says not to?  I have personal insider information that Jonathan likes rebodied and retipped Denon DL-103s.  So he doesn’t take his own advice.
I’m not saying he’s a liar.  I’m saying that he proposes an argument that is either convincing or not to you.  
Well, I can’t say I disagree.  When people want me to retip an Audio-Technica that has a missing gold plated cantilever I’m up front with them that I can’t get the part and I leave it up to them.

Also, I advise them to just buy a new AT OC9ML/II since I can’t retip those for the price of a new one—although the price has gone up now.  Those were once selling new for as little as $250.  
On the other hand, if they just need a diamond, I have put a new diamond on plenty of tapered gold-plated beryllium and gold-plated boron cantilevers.  My view is those are so rare—especially any beryllium cantilever these days, that it’s always a great idea to keep it going.  You can’t get beryllium anymore.  And gold plated?  Forget about it.  
With Audio-Technica, you also have to readjust the suspension.  They harden over time and often will not show separation greater than 20dB or so.  They have to be adjusted again and they will show 30, 35 and higher dB.  For this reason, an AT33ML OCC that I retipped with a tapered hardened aluminum cantilever was declared superior in sound by an AT33 aficionado and collector to an original NOS.

So, I do think that the above illustrates that just because a cartridge is NOS, original and untouched, doesn’t automatically mean it’s better and going to sound better than the same cartridge retipped with inferior materials by a conscientious and skilled retipper.   
The collector in that case sold off his NOS and kept the retip.  I think that says something because he was quite skeptical at first.  I can back this all up with emails.