Talk but not walk?

Speaking of Tuning blocks has anyone experimented with Mpingo discs? I have. A lot. Now, I don’t know whether you classify a Mpingo disc as a tune or a tweak but it is without question one of the most amazing devices in the history of audio. The reason you find so many folks who report negative results with these smallish 1 1/2” ebony discs is because it often requires a lot of trial and error to find a location where the sound jumps up very noticeably. In many locations, even some locations where you’d think it would definitely work, it doesn’t. In some locations it can hurt the sound. With care many Mpingo discs can fit into a room. 

One reason the Mpingo disc is so tricky is because it’s very directional. It’s directional top to bottom and the around the azimuth, as the disc is rotated. You can also get a sense of how powerfully these hardwoods by leaning a one foot plank of ebony or almost any type of hardwood up against the wall and observing how just one plank affects the sound. It’s like with crystals. Which, incidentally, one of which is placed surreptitiously inside a Mpingo disc. 😳

Interesting.

Geoff, Have you ever tried discs made out of other types of wood instead of Mpingo discs?  How about other shapes and sizes?

Glad you asked. I was going to say before that I have been using many types of wood for like forever. For my first iso stand I used cherry, oak, maple, and Baltic birch for the strength member. For the next iso stand Promethane I used mostly maple but also Baltic birch for the plates. I also experimented with a range of hardwoods to gauge their effects on the sound, like the foot long planks against the wall. I think the next thing that happened after than was I discovered crystals. 😬 of course others have experimented with various woods, e.g., Shakti Halographs, Myrtle wood blocks, and I can’t recall the dude’s name who roamed CES back in the day demonstrating his contraption made of many different types of wood. There are also other Shun Mook devices that employ ebony other than Mpingo, but the idea is the same - highly resonant wood that exhibits directionality. Spatial Kit, Diamond Resonators, Shun Mook record weight. Sugar Cubes from Franck Tchang are also wood.

All examples of resonance transfer of shear waves from one surface in contact with another material and shape. The resonance outcome of both materials and shapes are unpredictable I think. How their motion results in a different compressive sound is also unpredictable. Experience with materials and shapes maybe the best tool under the ear. Probably why the Mpingo discs work in some places for some and others not as much. Also a experienced listener and tweaker may find a better result in a shorter amount of time than the less experienced.Tom

Sorry, Tom, wrong again. Resonators do not have to be touching anything. They could, it might be convenient, but it’s not necessary. They can be just hanging there in free space. Like the Shakti Hollographs. Or they can be located where there is mechanical vibration where they convert the mechanical energy to heat. You know, like the Dampers I used for twenty years to allow energy to exit the system. Your Polarity of Shear theory has run aground, as it were. But I enjoy watching you trying to guess how something works. Very entertaining.

theaudiotweak,

"All examples of resonance transfer of shear waves from one surface in contact with another material and shape."

Could, for this purpose and in some theoretical ("talking") sense, a fluid be considered "surface"? I mean, does what you are proposing have to be two hard mediums or any of them could be fluid? It may seem off-topic, but it is not in the longer run.

Geoff,

I know how they work.  Your brain only works in the compressive world same as you think the Shakti Hollographs only do. When a compressive wave passes across the solid surface of the varied forms of wood of the Hollographs that wave turns into a shear wave ( only in a solid) . That shear wave motion causes the solid to move slightly.. the  air around that shape to vibrate and the fact that there are 2 different species of wood of over basically 6 different sections and lengths you now have a change in the compressive wave 6 different times per single unit. Now that 6 times does not take into account the boundary areas where  the twisted pattern in the wood is held at each end..nor does it take into account where it appears there 2 different species of wood joined together at their intersections..All those areas now included  have a different shear velocity as do the 2 different species of wood as do the different sectioned lengths that  cause a change in air motion and that is what you hear when those waves come in contact with other solids like the wall surface and your eardrums..they too resonate and cause a change in air motion... So how many times are those shear waves in all those materials and shapes make for change in your compressive world?  Tom

theaudiotweak,

Thanks.

Oh, brother! And glupson thanks you. Priceless.

Glupson,

Shear waves only transmit in solids not air or water..Air and water have very loose connections, solids have very tight connections. I suppose  molten metals or molten lava would behave somewhere in between a state of liquid or solid and that would change as the material cooled into a solid state. Tom

theaudiotweak,

I suspect I understand your points, but am at the same time, for my own exercise, broadening it and considering different media borders (for lack of better definition, wherever different density material meets) and what would and could happen there and how the transmission would change. Again, probably off-topic at this point, but most of the things on this thread are not related anyway. And I mean, thanks. Regardless of if you will be 50 years from now proven right or wrong.

Glupson,
So many materials, densities, shapes and angles and intersections all make for differences in perceived sound. And more..Thanks for thinking out loud !  Tom

Yeah, right, Tom. Pearls before swine, eh? 🐷

Are you referencing yourself as which, the swine or the pearl?  In reference from the Bible or your favorite comic book? Tom

theaudiotweak,

I have a feeling that swine was for me.

Gee whiz, guys. It was a joke. Lighten up! It’s onky a hobby. 🤡

Michael Green,

With some delay, I looked at that thread on Tuneland that was mentioned by jf47t and I am glad I did.

It shows your perspective for some of the things and I could agree with some of them. More places to actually listen in is a big missing piece in whole story and, unfortunately, you have not been successful at promoting it (according to your writing). Too bad. Instead of that, we are now left with reading reviews and buying equipment (tuning blocks are also equipment for this purpose) we have never heard properly or maybe even seen outside of the computer monitor. I wish you succeeded.

You did put a definition of an audiophile and elaborated on some of those aspects, but missed to emphasize the difference between "audiophile" and her/his related field (audiophilia?) and HEA (High End Audio). It does read as if audiophiles are somehow lower class than those leaning towards HEA. What would be a definition of HEA? No, I am not trying to "troll" you. It seems that difference is significant in your view, while I thought those would be at least overlapping, if not mostly synonyms.


Regardless of what HEA is, mention of the "cult" in this thread had nothing to do with HEA itself. It was clearly referring to participants’ views of Tuneland forum style. Nothing about music reproduction. Nothing at all. Nothing even about audiophiles or HEA. Just the view of the Tuneland dynamics. Right or wrong.


It is great that you posted all those pictures. Finally. I know, someone will ask for addresses, etc. but for less picky it was great. It brought some idea of what is being done. Well, it also answers the question why there is no wider acceptance of it. No matter how good it sounds, it looks practically unlivable with. Some may do it, but most will have to pass just on the basis of that. Not everyone is retired (surprise!!!) and some have children or pets who are not compatible with that kind of equipment. Their loss, we could say. Would putting some inert material around those exposed electrical parts be really detrimental to the sound? If you could work on that, it would broaden the reach.

I will skip commenting on many of the sentences from the post at around 3 am (June 18). I am only afraid that prof, when he comes back from his vacation, may have a heart attack. Which brings me to another piece.

You state...

The trolls on that forum even went as far as to warn readers not to come check out TuneLand …….So why is it they didn’t want readers to visit here? The answer to that one is simple. They don’t want people to come here, because here is where we "walk" the hobby.

where I happen to be the only one who recommended that Audiogon crowd does not go to Tuneland and forums stay separated and therefore I am the "troll" referenced in your post. You did pick some of my words, changed them a bit, omitted my explanation, and presented your adjusted opinion as firm truth. Had you not done all of that, you could have put me as a spiritual co-author of your sentence in which you explain why two forums are better left separated...

I don’t want to be as personally involved or bring that bad karma over to the pages of TuneLand from any place that might be wanting to sow bad seeds.

I will give you a credit, but you should remember where you read it first and decide if following "troll’s" thoughts makes one a "troll".

Speaking of "trolls", you use that word to an extent that dilutes anything you are trying to convey. It is not the case "if you repeat it enough, it will become the truth". It sticks out like a sore thumb and appears like desperate whining. Don’t do it.

By the way, I am not sure if a person can "troll" her/himself, but according to description of "troll" you provided on Tuneland, you would have qualified on this thread on more than one occasion. It is easy to do it, the definition is too broad.

Goodnight and Happy Trolling everyone!

Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued? 

Michael Green,

There is a picture of four men on Tuneland (this latest thread you have there) in which a taller one has sunglasses and one wears a vest. I am mentioning it just to identify the picture. Are those guys anyone we know from this thread? Just trying to put a picture together with words.


Also, there is a picture or two on which electronic equipment with silver faceplates, looks like an amplifier and maybe a CD player (resembles Audio Research design, but not clear from the picture) seems to have all the covers in place. Is that correct? Pictures are a little blurry and items relatively far. Other equipment seems to have covers removed. Is there any story behind it? Why did you decide to leave these particular covers on? Or did I see it incorrectly, which is about 50% likely?

tomcy6
Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued? This could be a whole new product line for you.

>>>>Actually the possibilities aren’t endless. And I didn’t say ebony was the only beneficial wood. Don’t put words in my mouth. Maybe you should go back and read what I said, Mr. Snooty Pants.

No matter who feels they are right the only way to actually know is to "walk" (do).

Definitely true. However, a person can make the process more efficient by talking before, or even during, walking. Then there may be no sadness about a lifetime not being enough.

jf47t,

Thanks,

Pictures are really interesting for someone with no previous exposure to such things. They may not make a person a convert, but they do add another dimension. Until now, it has all been fully talk. Not that pictures prove anything, but why would anyone doubt it anyway?

tomcy6
Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued?

>>>>Yes, my curiosity was piqued. Wasn’t yours?

I already outlined the logic behind wood, especially the highly resonant Mpingo wood. The Mpingo discs are not used as feet. Other parameters besides the type of wood are important. E.g., when wood is used for a top plate of an iso stand or a self it should be a minimum thickness to resist bending forces.  I also outlined my logic for choosing non-wood materials for coupling, I.e., extremely hard materials for grounding components and iso stands. The logic included ranking the best to worst materials for use as coupling cones, from NASA grade ceramics and diamonds to brass and carbon fiber and wood on the lower end of the hardness scale, corresponding to the best sound to worst sound. Perhaps you were daydreaming and missed it.

BTW,

on mpingo discs:

I had done some “walking” with the Shun Mook products in the past - their Speakers which I thought were terrific, and their mpingo discs.   I tried the mpingo discs in the ways they instructed.  Didn’t hear any effect whatsoever.
 
But of course negative results never count. I’ll just let geoffk add that to his Prof Can’t Hear arsenal of jibes.  There you go geoff: a free gimme :-)

In case anyone is interested, the article that jf47t referenced regarding my question about people on one picture brings some unique view I had never expected to see anywhere. It is the first time that word "bureaucracy" appears as something positive what we should be grateful for. It may not help the sound, but dead ears do not hear so it may be a fair trade off.

As Michael indicated when I interviewed him regarding the studio designs, significant barriers to new ways of thinking are encountered when one comes up against the bureaucracy. In this case, state fire codes prohibited using the kind of wood materials for the walls and floors of the studio that were originally intended.

Michael Green,

There are a few pictures in that 2006 article that jf47t referenced. One of the pictures shows the ceiling vent opening close to one of the devices you had placed (it says "The Steinway with microphones and PZCs" under the picture although I think it is not related to the picture itself). What do you do about it? Wouldn’t the air coming from the vent forcefully throw all the preconceived theories away? All the ideas and drawings would be wiped out as irrelevant in this case. Is there any secret to managing that?


I might have missed it in the article, but was that set-up and your involvement just for that particular recording or was that studio arranged by you for the longer run?

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue23/green.htm

prof
BTW,

on mpingo discs:

I had done some “walking” with the Shun Mook products in the past - their Speakers which I thought were terrific, and their mpingo discs. I tried the mpingo discs in the ways they instructed. Didn’t hear any effect whatsoever.

But of course negative results never count. I’ll just let geoffk add that to his Prof Can’t Hear arsenal of jibes. There you go geoff: a free gimme :-)

>>>>No surprises there. I said it ain’t easy. There’s also the thing to consider your attempts with lots of things like, you know, vibration isolation, oft go awry. 😛 No wonder you’re just a big skeptic! What do they call that? Oh, yeah, a self-fulfilling prophecy. 😀 Would I be taking a cheap shot by saying you could be the poster boy for operator error? 😳

How did my attempt at vibration isolation “go awry?”

You’re kidding, right? Nothing you try seems to work. You’re the poster boy for All Thumbs. You talk a good game though, for a tweakaphobe.

“There’s a fine line between suspicious and skeptical and superstitious.” - audiophile axiom

Geoff,

I’ll try once more to elicit content from you:

You claimed my attempt at vibration isolation went awry.

How?

C’mon, show you can do better than Michael Green and support your claim. 
:)

As I recall you said you couldn’t really hear the fruits of your labor. It was in the same post in which you mentioned my name as giving some advice or whatever. About three months ago. Hearing the results is really the most important thing, no?

Lizzie, you might not have OCD, the jury is still out, but you do have something else. It’s called having more money than brains.

A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into audio nirvana as a 🐫 has of passing through the 👁 of a needle.

Re geoff’s comments on my isolation project,

The project he refers to is one I’d made a thread detailing .

The building of the isolation base was occasioned by trying to add re-enforcement and isolation to a flimsy older Lovan rack, to accommodate my new and very heavy full aluminum transrotor turntable.

This is was not a rack I trusted with my turntable in the first place so I had to redo it before even setting up my turntable.

I ordered and checked out a large number of isolation materials and products, eventually making sure I used the ones that I could measure as having significant isolation. Hence I ended up with a thick maple wood block base, atop a sort of “layman’s” version of constrained layer damping, held up my Townsend isolation pods (springs).

The result was at the very least a very obvious reduction of gross external vibrations - both by hand feel and measuring with a seismometer app.

Place a hand or iPad with seismometer app on one of the lower “untreated” shelves and one can very easily feel foot fall near the rack, and the seismometer registers huge, ringing spikes of vibration.
But place a hand atop the isolation base and you feel no vibration transmitted even stomping the nearby ground. The seismometer app also registers almost nothing. (Even these results are welcome as my youngest son stomps through our house like Godzilla).

I finished my thread by pointing out that this situation of having to rebuild my rack before listening to the turntable meant I had no before and after reference and could not rightly tell anyone the sonic dividends the base may, or may not, have rendered. I also pointed out that not being an expert in these issues, and not having been able to carefully draw a line via more rigorous testing from anything I employed to a sonic result, the honest position for me was to admit this and not make any such claims that I couldn’t back up.

But that nonetheless it was fun and interesting playing with all of this stuff, learning what I could to the extent I did, and that it was a DIY project that Was satisfying in its own right.

Now...THIS^^^^^ is what geoff would like to spin into a project “gone awry.” And in geoff’s world of making grand unsubstantiated claims, being honest enough to refrain from making overreaching claims counts as abject failure.

Something to contemplate when reading his never ending attempts at barbs and insults.

And of course Michael Green would still never acknowledge any of those effforts as “waking” instead of “talking” because: 1. I didn’t use little tuned wood blocks or tear apart my equipment and 2. Acknowledging my efforts as “doing/walking” wouldn’t fit the narrative he has going that I’m just a Faker/Talker.

@geoffkait

"A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into audio nirvana as a 🐫 has of passing through the 👁 of a needle."

Is audio nirvana a club? Is there a doorman? Do you have to bribe him with an mpingo disc or a shiny pebble or crystal? If Lizzie can’t get in then who can? Are you, MG, and jf47t members....are you on the board....who is chairman of the board? Is Robert a member or is he MG’s guest? Maybe audio nirvana a state of mind....or mindlessness....or mind numbing insensibility. There are so many rules to follow it is a wonder anyone has a stereo system anymore.

prof,

Do not get into it. It seems that the option for you not hearing the difference being no difference somehow got missing/

How does one define "rich audiophile"?

elizabeth,

My sentiments are in hearty agreement with yours! There’s a limit to how much energy I’d want to put into just being able to listen to music, and dialing endless audiophile tweaks sounds like drudgery. Especially the keep tuning, tuming, tuning per program material of the MG school! Let alone tearing apart much of my gear. The Tuneland photos are to my eyes aesthetic nightmares and it seems pretty obvious why, even if effective at all, it’s going to have a very limited audience.
You can’t show rooms like that to anyone and claim “I’m just all about the MUSIC, maaan!”

No. You really aren’t. Normal people, especially musicians, can happily enjoy music without tearing their equipment apart in the worry that every errant vibration may be diluting the sound quality.
This is the sign someone really is in to THE GEAR and tweaking. And there is nothing wrong with that, either!

I have my own lines to draw about where I want to spend my time and mental energy, and I would NEVER try to draw them for other people. (And call people “talkers” because their efforts don’t align with mine).

I am already well into “kooky” territory in my efforts relative to the non-audiophile (and I continue to experiment with things like room acoustics etc).

That’s why I’ve continually supported in this thread any Tuner’s hobby. If they get a kick out of opening up their gear and trying Michael’s ideas, more power to them. I hope Michael’s techniques really work out for them.

@prof (intellectual provocateur) - just to close the loop:

whatever.

glupson
prof,

Do not get into it. It seems that the option for you not hearing the difference being no difference somehow got missing/

>>>>>>pseudo intellectual support group captain, at ease! AKA “the clean slate.” AKA “what about this, what about that?”

prof wrote,

I have my own lines to draw about where I want to spend my time and mental energy, and I would NEVER try to draw them for other people. (And call people “talkers” because their efforts don’t align with mine).

>>>>Gosh, that’s deep. That’s sort of the blah blah blah MG was referring to if I’m not mistaken. Can we take your efforts to basically mean no efforts, at least no successful ones? 😛 By the way, nice to have a quorum again for the talkers side.

J Edgar Hoover: I don’t go all the way.

Shirley Temple: Either do I.

glupson
How does one define "rich audiophile"?

>>>>How do you define rich audiophile? How you define rich? How do you define audiophile? How do you define audio Nirvana? How do you define camel?

Without knowing what is what, it is all just an empty talk. In this thread, we have not even agreed what constitutes "walk" or "talk", yet it gets fiercely argued. We only know what a "troll" is. Everyone we do not like or have no ability to discuss with in a civilized and logical manner.

I propose that anyone on this thread who calls another person "troll" be "officially" pronounced a "troll".

glupson - if you are so naive and gullible not to know what I mean by rich audiophile I ain’t going to tell you. Since I was addressing Lizzie when I made that remark why don’t you ask her?

Never wise up a chump or give a sucker an even break.