Two audio components no one really talks about
1. The room
2. Your hearing
First the room. I have bookshelf speakers in the living room with a sub and I love the sound it all creates (won’t go into detail about specs, not the point here). It’s beautiful and I love it. Then I have a system in the basement and the sound is completely different. The living room gives an open and spacious sound and moving the same system to the basement gives it a focused and not spacious sound. The tones and detail is good just not as grand a sound as in the LR. Secondly, the sound was horrible in the basement until I put the speakers against the long wall. My point is the same system in two rooms sounds completely different and a choosing a different wall made a monumental difference but still can’t match an open room. I’m a Vandersteen owner (basement system) and i know all about speaker positioning and optimization. There has got to be diminishing returns on a sound system when your room is limited in what it can do with the acoustics.
Hearing. I recently had a hearing test and found I had hearing loss (a couple of decibels) in the mid frequencies (low and high were fine) and that it wasn’t due to age or damage but rather something I was born with. So what I hear and what you hear is different. I’m sure most of us have variations in our frequency responses. So when someone gives their endorsement on a amp or speaker or whatever, that sounds good to them and might not sound good to you. There is something to be said for tonal adjustments and for me in the 1kHz range. The point here is you need to decide what sounds good to you and you might not like that component someone swears is the best.
I’m always amazed and the amount of money people drop on systems and maybe they don’t need to spend that much money due to limitations mentioned above.
It’s not a fun topic but you have to admit there could be a lot you can do with the room to make the sound better. But maybe there is nothing you can do and no amount of money on equipment will change that.
Rooms are important and frequently discussed here. I lucked out and my audio room is amazingly good (see my userID). I was really lucky more so than good. We can probably lend a hand helping you tweak your systems if you show your systems under your ID. Virtually all of us have very compromised hearing in comparison to our spouses. Women have much better hearing. I always bring my partner along when auditioning components. She can’t describe a single aspect of sound quality like I can… but can hear much better. She hates anything brittle, digital, noisy, or with high frequency distortion. Anyway, most of us have some hearing impairment of some kind. But unless it is very substantial, it just doesn’t mater. A better system sounds like a much better system. Sounds like your hearing is outstanding… from an overall perspective. Forget about it. Enjoy the music, choose components that sound good to you. |
"Women hear differently from men." .... Art Dudley http://www.enjoythemusic.com/listener/v7no4/editorial.htm
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Rooms are frequently discussed on audio forums I assume this one is no different, but no one ever accused philes of being good listeners. Big room, reflections farther from the side, feels spacious. Small rooms, reflections arriving close enough to main sound, more focused. If you want spacious, put a 2nd pair of speakers closer but along the wall (wider angle to you) and feed them a delayed version of the main signal (get rid of the bass). If that is starting to sound like one of those spatial modes on your home theater AVR, it is. It is fake, but so is your spacious setup. If that is your enjoyment, then make the most of it. The first rule of phile club is no one talks about wasted money. Of course most of the money spent is a waste due to limitations mentioned. You are not supposed to say it out loud, no more than you are supposed to say a lot of the money is spent on very expensive single function equalizers. They often come packaged looking just like other pieces of audio equipment.
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Dealing with one's listening environ will likely be the most difficult challenge one will face, since the answer will either ask for a new purpose-built one or treatments that one's significant other will hate in most cases.... Dealing with your ears will require aids or headphones dialed into your personal response curve. Your grey matter and how it responds will need a 'sea change' or a hammer. Good luck with either or all....*L* |
@doogabayne Don't worry about your couple of dB loss in the mid. Your speakers can't reproduce that flat. But the worst is the big hearing loss that can come with old age. The best hearing aids in the world are a very poor substitute for your own good hearing. My late father had bad loss in both ears as a very old man. He loved music and had a good if vintage system. He bought the best aids available but said that music no longer moved him. He didn't listen at all in the last decade of his life, moving mainly to BBC Radio 4, the best talk radio in the world. Make sure you enjoy it while you can Dooga |
In total agreement about the room, even the slightest correction with treatments makes a major improvement as does figuring out how your speakers respond to placement, toe in, etc.. I personally found by switching from bookshelves, (Triangle Comete’ EZ’s), to dipoles (Maggi .7’s), I was able to enjoy music again. I went back to listening rather than hearing what the speakers were and were not doing. As we age and after years of exposure to loud sounds weather we produced them or were from some external source, adjustments in our listening must be made to accommodate our hearing and the rooms we grow into to get us back to how we think things used to sound or should sound. One thing to I need to keep in mind as I go crazy chasing how I remember things sounded, is back in the day I heard music, today I critically listen and my current speaker choice, room correction and the advice I often get from fellow posters here on Audiogon has allowed me to continue enjoying this hobby as long as I don’t look at my credit card bills… LOL As for Hearing & Listening… Not to change the subject but… How many times has the wife come in at the part of the song you’ve waited for and starts talking and thinks you hear what’s saying, then says you’re deaf for not responding? … LOL Didn’t hear my wife because I was listening to the music…. |
I have two systems, the first is in a bad room with some treatments and the second is in an okay room with just a little conditioning. The speakers are different, the amps are different the preamps are different, most of the wires are different, the sources are different, so of course they will sound different. And as for my hearing? I can hear just fine as far as volume, but I’m sat to say, I can’t hear much above 11k. |
From the OP, "There has got to be diminishing returns on a sound system when your room is limited in what it can do with the acoustics." |
Long ago I sold a decent system to a gent who lived in a Brownstone on Commonwealth Ave in Boston’s Back Bay. It was a spacious room with high coffered ceilings, a huge oriental carpet, was lined with walnut woodwork, well filled bookcases, overstuffed chairs, a baby grand piano… you get the picture. The system was a pair of KEF 104/2s and an NAD 7155 integrated receiver and matching CD player. The wiring was 16ga. zip cord, like from the hardware store. Patch cord was what came with the player. He was into opera. When I finished hooking it up the first disc he chose was a Georg Solti London set of something by Wagner with I think Nilsson singing soprano. I had heard these speakers in the store extensively and owned a pair myself but nothing prepared me for how amazing they sounded with no break in in this room. Completely convincing sound stage, tonally uncolored, seemingly unlimited dynamics. |
I built my system in our living room. We have hardwood floors throughout the first floor and a large 10 x 13 Persian rug. I think we have the right balance between hardwood floors and Persian rug. I think the hardwood floors help to brighten up the sound and improve my sound stage. The real game changer was when I added two REL SHO's. Suddenly the soundstage presented itself. It is critical to make sure you blend the subwoofers with the towers to play more like woofers. |
In my experience (on these pages): it seems when one brings up another's, "hearing", or: "aural acuity"; as a variable in their perceptions, the reaction is often denial. AS IF everyone's senses don't vary in acuity, to one degree or another. Then again: denying reality seems a trend, not only on these pages, but... Anyway: If were truly OCD, there are more of my own posts on the subject to reference, and A LOT of other folks as well, if you type, "aural acuity" in your SEARCH DISCUSSIONS box. The listening room is an obvious MAIN variable and: one's hearing is another. BUT: when acuity, the training of another ears, or: HOW they listen are brought up, it's taken much more personally (silliness).
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I figure if you hear a live concert such as The Dead’s "wall of sound’ or any live outdoor venue using equipment by Altec, JBL and McIntosh then to hear it as you experienced it complete with the inherent coloration of transducers, boxes etc. requires the same playback equipment consisting of Altec, JBL and McIntosh. |
agree - great forum topic and one that hits home for me 1. I think everyone in this hobby appreciates how impactful room acoustics are to the listening experience. IMO, no piece of gear/equipment (regardless of price) can totally correct a bad listening environment - maybe improve what we hear in terms of "noise floor" or "speed/detail". 2. Hearing loss is bitch. And hearing aids really remove the beauty of the "sound of of the music" when I wear them. So now, I'm mainly listening "for things" like a specific instrument or a background artifact. But I prefer not to wear them so I can enjoy the tonality my system provides for frequencies I can hear rather than that washed-out amplfiied noise in my ears. |
