This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
Regardless of others' views of music vs. sound, what Authority were you appealing to when you mentioned...
"He was a musician, first oboe in National Symphony Orchestra, DC."
It seemed like a reasonable statement of facts that served its purpose of describing the situation very clearly. Who would have thought that it had hidden meaning, too.
"...who was apparently unable to hear properly or didn’t know what he was listening to."
I understand that you disliked what you heard there, but may it be that said musician simply had different preferences than you did? Or, may it be, that his perception of sound is biased because of the position and surroundings, not to mention loudness level, that he frequently finds himself in while playing music himself?
Gee whiz, glupson, you’re over thinking again. I judged his system sucked. No hidden meaning. That’s the advantage of knowing the difference between bad sound and good sound. I realize as I’m typing you probably have no idea what I’m talking about. 😀 I know what’s coming next. But what about this, what about that? 😛 look, I’m going to help you out. Here are some suggested questions,
1. What makes you a better judge of sound than a professional musician?
2. What if your hearing is actually bad and you’re deluded?
3. How can you be so sure of your hearing ability? Don’t you have any doubt?
4. Can you prove your hearing ability in a blind test?
"I know what’s coming next. But what about this, what about that?"
That is kind of funny. I do not have more questions of that kind at this moment, but am glad that you think of me that way. After all, isn't it you who thinks one should never be content and should always try to improve? I will take it as a compliment. Thank you.
Hidden meaning I was talking about was you saying that your mentioning of the oboist was an appeal to authority. It did not come across as such. It came across just as a plain easily-understandable sentence. I was obviously underthinking.
>>>>Let me answer with a question. Why are the very hardest cones have the best performance and the softer cones like brass and carbon fiber sound the worst?
Depending on geometry - the shapes of cones will always vary performance greatly. The hardest cones according to your opinion have the best performance referring to Mohs’ scale as some type of scientific proof that hardness is a finer conductor for resonance where that relationship is extremely subjective at best.
Depending on material - brass is manmade where the chemistry and metallurgy varies greatly from supplier to supplier. There are quite a few choices when it comes to brass selections used in production that adds another variable in establishing performance criterion for comparison sake.
Depending on metallurgy - where a cheaper imported brass might look the same and even have the same “certifications in print” and are told it is the same material however we have gone through this process and will state otherwise. Metallurgy is critical to our product’s performance. Star Sound purchases a premium grade of brass and acquires it from a single source here in the States hence we benefit from thirty years of consistency in performance. We cannot speak for others.
Depending on the cost of the cone - comparing a $25 part to a higher priced item establishes a disadvantage although in some areas of the marketplace the lesser cost remains the stronger performer.
Depending on what the cone is resting on - a piece of wood will not yield the same result as any type of steel, copper, acrylic or carbon, etc shelf material. You make statements based on your analogy that somehow always relates to some type of chart or experiment having nothing to do with audio and/or sound.
You can classify the brass cone as being part of your worst sound however the history and longevity supporting the Audio Point™ tends to prove otherwise. Keep in mind, our particular brass cone is but one part involving the geometries used in our platforms, mechanically grounded studio environments and musical instruments so it’s not just a cone but serves multiple purposes.
Pop Quiz: Why is seismic vibration much more important for SQ than acoustic vibration or induced vibration? Especially for vinyl playback.
Where on Earth does one acquire testing data that could possibly support an answer to such a loaded and highly subjective question as this?
You forgot to include mechanical and electromechanical vibration in your question as these two also play a significant factor in the “importance role” of the formula but before any attempt to answer is even considered we need to know...
Are we talking day to day every minute mini earthquakes, close proximity vehicle traffic, extreme SPL in a pressurized environment, low noise levels in a recording studio, seismic as in trains passing by, air conditioners on/off, etc.?
Next - does your data or test methodology state how mechanical and electrical noise within all the electronic chassis was managed?
Next - what was the turntable resting on? A wood rack, an acrylic, a combo of lots of materials rack, a Sistrum Platform™, they all have very different performance values. The equipment rack is the foundation that either excels, limits or reduces the potential of any sound system and affects the outcome of all testing methodologies including what the test equipment itself is residing on.
Next - what facility was used for the testing and what was the test criterion used to produce your findings other than your own opinions?
Next - a biggie - what footer system factory or otherwise used to support the turntable or turntables? As you related to above there are differences between material, hardness and shapes govern audible performance where a simple factory turntable footer now controls the outcome and sonic results no matter what testing formula, equipment or methodology you used to set up this unanswerable question. What if the turntable footer is inefficient or less of a sonic performer - does that make the data and/or your opinion less relevant?
Finally - how did you make comparisons between seismic and airborne resonance?
Extra credit: Why is the material of the top plate of a vibration isolation stand relatively immaterial, to use a word?
I presume you are talking about an electronic controlled isolation stand such as Kinetic Systems Bench Mate - correct? Otherwise we refer back to question one and two - refrain, refrain, refrain.
We are limited by experience using these devices in audio applications as isolation is not a focus for our Company. In music reproduction we do not study nor rely on what is best for aerospace, biosciences, laser supports, etc. We do not study the effects of resonance related to electron microscope stability. Audio environments involve higher sound pressure levels that establish heavier amplitudes of resonance in comparison to what is generated in a clean room or scientific testing laboratory.
Since isolation and resonance energy transfer methodologies are entirely different so is the sonic performance created from each product. We have experienced Kinetic Systems in comparison with our products at a local dealer where the sonic reproduction using the same turntable, speakers, racking, electronics and cables remained the same for comparison between both devices. The result in sound performance was extremely diverse.
Two different theories, two different products (isolation and mechanical grounding) yield two very different sound qualities. It’s not like comparing two amplifiers of the same power and cost where one may point out minor differences in sonic. The differences are extremely audible where the listener will immediately know what performance is best for their sound - the differences are not subtle whatsoever.
Try placing a Sistrum Platform under the isolation table. Your previous listening results and information from the table are now also subject to change.
In closing:
When you can answer those questions you will answer your own question.
We will never be able to answer ‘those’ questions due to the vagueness of ‘those’ questions. I was hoping you would answer our initial question.
At some point, you should take us up on our offer to provide you a Sistrum Platform for your review. It might change your opinion on a few old school standards.
I kind of went the way of MG’s Low Mass System concept, more by coincidence really, inasmuch as I downsized about 3 years ago to the point where there is no more amplifier, no more World’s Most Modded Oppo CD Player, no more House AC, no finicky AC Ground, no power cords, no interconnects, no speaker cables, no big toxic transformers, no more fuses, no multitude of electrical connections to worry about, no chassis to fret about.
And because I went to a headphone system there is no more concern about room treatments, at least the usual ubiquitous ones. I do actually employ many thousands of the unspeakable type of treatments around the house as you can perhaps image. Perhaps not. 😬 In any case, my current system of Made in Japan Panasonic portable CD player and naked Grado SR-80 headphones are pretty light. Just to be on the safe side the Panny is up on a highly specialized isolation platform which is mostly glass crystal and glass and glass micro beads for high mass, all of which are up on some springs of my design.
The Crystal Palace or Palace of Solitude as I like to call it comes in around 50 lbs. so, I kind of doubt there would be a place for a Sistrum but I appreciate the offer. I suggest you try some springs directly under whatever component you have sitting on a Sistrum. You know, for isolation. Never up, never in. Besides, doesn’t MG use springs?
Did you buy Grado 80 after not-so-long-ago mapman's recommendation to you to upgrade from SR 60, or you had had them before that and he was incorrect in assuming you had SR 60?
On a more important note, what model of Panasonic CD player is it that you have and why did you decide on that one?
As fate would have it they were Grado SR-80s the whole time. Duh? You were probably napping when I mentioned it earlier somewhere. As fate would also have it, I picked up brand sparking new Grado SR-60s just three days ago for $5 which I’ll be using for my portable cassette player. Once I get rid of the abominable ear pads and foam, of course. What was Joe thinking? See, there’s my perception of sound thing again.
Thanks for asking. 😬 Questions, you have questions? Shirley, there must be some others.
Grado sr80es are very easy to drive and are amazingly detailed and revealing especially for their paltry price. Can’t do better perhaps in regard to being able to listen into the music for <$100. I use them mostly with portable devices (ipad, Iphone) and often but not always with Chord Mojo DAC/amp which tends to up the game of most things it is used with.
Thanks for the explanation. As fate would have it (I hope that is not copyrighted), I attempted to listen to SR-80 at the store that was so noisy that the only thing I was able to conclude is that they do not isolate from the store noise that well.
geoffkait,
I must have been in deep sleep when you mentioned about SR-80. I apologize for redundant question and am thankful for answer.
However, what Panasonic CD player do you have? And, while we are at it, what Walkman?
I have SONY D-421SP. Do think neutrinos are wreaking same havoc as in geoffkait's Panasonic? I heard that SONY used more labile photon protection against such pests.
Yes. Michael is an equal opportunity tuner. With the rising number of listeners moving from higher to lower mass systems the original audiopoint that MG introduced in the early 90's worked well with some of the amps of that time, but by the time the mid 90's were here the brass "zing" was becoming obvious as products changed their component materials. This is when MG changed the configuration of the cone and the way the outer surface was done. Along with this MG designed and or used other MTD's (mechanical transfer devices) to work better with the newer age of components. If you look at TuneLand you can see the evolution of components and the need for several different types of mechanical grounding methods and tools.
As the changes in materials being used for listening continued to evolve so did the need for different transfer devices. This meant other materials needed to be used along with brass and of course so did the shapes used.
Yesterday MG showed me what happens to the sound as he introduced an Audiopoint MTD Harmonic Spring AAB-R and LTR Block into the system. Pretty remarkable differences. MG is about the variables and took me through 3 recordings and showed me how different they are as well. After we took a break Michael then showed me what happens as a transformer is tuned in relationship to the capacitors in a CDP and Amp. That was a revelation. He explained that only CD Players that use very small and low mass transformers should be used any where near the chips and bigger transformers in CDPs corrupt the signal. MG is giving the system time to settle and after is going to show me what happens when brass is put close to the chips and transformers.
tomcy6 Geoff, Where do you place the Brilliant Pebbles, Super Intelligent Chip, Codename Turquoise and other products of yours in your new system?
>>>>There is no place in the system now for Brillisnt Pebbles. Mostly Brilliant Pebbles is for room acoustics. In the old days the original Intelligent Chip was placed on TOP of the CD Player. Then a CD was played for two seconds to treat the CD. My SUPER Intelligent Chip is designed to be placed inside the player where the reaction to the laser light is more intense. For a portable CD player the chip is attached to the inside top the case. For an ordinary player it’s usually placed on the Mini CD tray just below the CD tray. I do not use the chip myself since they are somewhat labor intensive. The chip is intelligent because it knows when a CD has already been treated. It is not smart enough to know when it’s run out of hits, but I know. 😀
Codename Turquoise covers the top and bottom areas inside the case.
I also use Flying Saucers for Windows, Flying Saucers for Unused wall outlets, Blue Meanies for walls, Green Meanie for ceilings, Quantum Temple Bell, Morphic Message Lables (I go through many pages of labels per month). And of course the Clever Little Clock, the more the better. One customer of mine has about twenty now. Many customers have more than one.
I use a boatload of other things that are not my products, like Mpingo disc, Graphene TC and DH Cones, but many are not in scope of this question. They fall under the category of Unspeakable. Also cryogenics I still do after all these years. I also just dug out my Liquid Resolution CD treatment I had stashed away. Heh heh
tomcy6 Did you phone yourself for the Teleportation Tweak and did it make a dramatic difference if you did?
>>>Every time I do the Teleportation Tweak for a customer I also treat my own system as as consequence. The TT is very dramatic but mostly for the customer. There is only so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange. 🍊 When a customer gets a new phone he usually calls back for another TT. Or if he has more than one phone. When the TT first started it was for myself only. Then it occurred to be it might work long distance. Then the technique started to evolve.
Hey, this thread reminds of the days not that long ago with MG et al over on Stereophile forum, where we dooked it out for months on end, right along with May Belt, who it turns out was sitting next to Peter (RIP) at the computer whilst typing. We did the Mash, we did the Monster Mash. It caught on in a flash. Much fun was had by all, including the moderators. 🤡
Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the whole world. It was the humble spring that allowed scientists to finally be able to observe gravity waves, which are quite camera shy and hard to see, especially given their amplitudes of what, about the diameter of an atomic nucleus? But are springs really mechanical transfer devices? Or are they isolators? They cannot be “grounders.” You are the decider. 🙄
So called audio isolaters should be called restrictors or retainers. Ligo may succeed in restricting all forms of motion and hence no sound. In audio you need motion for reproduction to be heard. Audio isolaters cannot discern the difference between a wave direction needed and one that should be reduced or grounded. Tom
theaudiotweak So called audio isolaters should be called restrictors or retainers. Ligo may succeed in restricting all forms of motion and hence no sound. In audio you need motion for reproduction to be heard. Audio isolaters cannot discern the difference between a wave direction needed and one that should be reduced or grounded.
>>>>>I don’t know what you’re talking about but what I’m talking about is Springs. Specifically mass-on-spring isolation. This is not rpt not some wild unscientific theory or crazy audiophile idea. To argue that isolation is not possible or that Springs are not isolators is rather short-sighted, to say the least, perhaps even a lot more. This is what happens when folks Stove Pipe. They are hyper focused on whatever and neglect to see what is going on in the rest of the world. Stovepiping oft leads to bizarre and fallacious conclusions.
Do not be mad when someone gets interested in what you have to say. Most of the people here do not take you seriously, but I decided I will pay attention.
When folks don’t take me seriously I simply think, there but for the grace of God....no skin off my nose, Troll. You obviously ran out of ammo a long time ago. Why can’t there be more of me? 😳
Sorry I blew your cover. At least it’s nice to know who the people are MG was referring to in his OP. Fakes. 😀
I wonder if you started rethinking before posting. Those more technical posts are still worth reading and thinking about them from time to time. Remainder of communication seems to have improved lately. There have not been cows, grasshoppers, and who would remember what other animals assigned to other members in a while. Not even questions about target customer flow. Thank you for that.
You’re right, you’re not faking being a troll. But not an entertaining one or one with good questions, even your loaded questions are pedestrian and rather dumb. All the lonely trolls, where do they all come from? 👹 👹 👹 Are trying to bore everyone to death? ☠️
Ok, I will stop and I will be honest. I just wanted to see how you will react if someone treats you in a similar, although much more polite, way that you often treat other people. When tide turns, in a sense. Some kind of empirical testing. Maybe it was not fair, but you got annoyed too quickly. Well, remember the feeling. I will not bother you anymore.
So let's recount for a moment, in case anyone has forgotten:
Someone starts a thread talking about empiricism vs theory, criticizing "talking" vs walking.
Then at some point he starts making claims - "talking" - about things like capacitors changing sound when untied.
He's then asked reasonable questions such as:
1. What measurements can you present to support your claim there are changes between a tied and untied capacitor?
2. How do you relate those measurements to audibility?
3. How did you test this hypothesis while controlling for variables like imagination and bias?
Then the OP runs away from those questions. And has an underling take his place in continually avoiding any tough questions, supplying instead constant over-the-top praise of the OP.
Leaving us to question the OP's actual commitment to empiricism and "walking."
do not take it that close to the heart. It is what it is.
My curiosity led me to the Tuneland forum, just as a reader as I have nothing to contribute. Not that I contributed much here, either. It is interesting there. It really is. Not so much about music, but overall approach. You got a honorable mention, I think. I was quoted. In a negative context, though. Misunderstood, too. Anyway, just like this thread ended up being a lot about personalities (with Michael Green being cited the most), the thread there is also very much about personalities here. Mostly in a subtly demeaning manner, but it brought couple of thoughts, too. One is the claim, or whatever it could be classified as, that most of the guys here are retired people who have nothing better to do (maybe not the exact quote, but something like that). I wonder if that is a fair assessment of demographics here. I cannot even try to guess which one of you does what. Nothing wrong with being retired, but is it really true that most posters here are retired?
Now, don’t go to Tuneland and then lose your cool. It is interesting there, but only if you can control yourself.
As an observation, at least two posters there make same spelling mistakes.
This isn’t meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I’ve seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It’s not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don’t we see this happen?
I’m not asking for peoples credentials, and I’m not asking to be trolled, I’m simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I’m also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we’ve all heard it been there done it. What I’m asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
kosst_amojan Why’s there this sideways expectation that folks aren’t legit audiophiles unless they indulge in all the snake oil?
>>>>>Well, in glupson’s case, it’s because he’s told us he isn’t a legit audiophile. He even said last night he’s just an onlooker, that he has nothing to contribute. Duh! 🙄 In the case of some of the others here, I suspect they’re either disinterested, overly skeptical or don’t get good results with what little they do so they give up. Sound familiar, Costco?
I’m walking, Through streets that are dead Walking,..
>>>>See, why is it always the talker who feels compelled to respond to every single post? Come on, people! Snarkolepsy is a misunderstood malfunction. If I can be a little snarky myself glupson sounds a bit like a Cub Scout ogling a Playboy magazine.
Snar-ko-lep-sy A psychological disfunction in which the person is sleepwalking but still snarky. Often found in trolls and wannabes.
1. What measurements can you present to support your claim there are changes between a tied and untied capacitor?
2. How do you relate those measurements to audibility?
3. How did you test this hypothesis while controlling for variables like imagination and bias?
Then the OP runs away from those questions. And has an underling take his place in continually avoiding any tough questions, supplying instead constant over-the-top praise of the OP.
Leaving us to question the OP’s actual commitment to empiricism and "walking."
>>>>All of which makes no sense because empirical implies either measurement or observation. Duh! So this whole Strawman argument is just another troll. Prof hasn’t done his homework, even his Uber Skeptic’s arguments are flawed. It’s SO obvious. Demands for proof and measurements are the last resort of the dedicated pseudo skeptic. 😡
I tell you I can visualize it all This couldn't be a dream for too real it all seems But it was just my imagination once again runnin' way with me Tell you it was just my imagination runnin' away with me
It is true that it is hard to know if something is snake oil, or not, before hearing it yourself or, at least, from someone you feel you can trust. Different issue is why is it so important to be in a category of "audiophile" or "walker". So far, in over a thousand posts, we have not agreed, or even attempted to clarify, what "talking", "walking", "faking", "audiophile" is for the purpose of this thread. I tried asking a few times with no response so I started considering those few words a "snake oil" of their own kind. Maybe my questions have not been read or considered worth answering, but they are the basis for discussing a topic as vague as the title of this thread.
As for the above question about a "talker" having to respond to questions, it is due to an open nature of the forum. It should be acceptable as long as it does not cross the line of polite behavior and insults we too often read here.
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