glupson, I hereby bestow upon you the Laughing Cow award for funniest posts of the week.🐮
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
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glupson wrote, My case, point by point. 1. Actual disassembling of the amplifier was so simple that it left no room for error. Cover off and out of the room (I actually did that on purpose). 2. I used the fist around the screwdriver. Otherwise, I am not the best for the finest fine motor work, but this required nothing of that kind. >>>>Did you disconnect any cables or power cord before removing the cover? 3. The whole point is that even the lousiest system can reveal differences. That is why tweaking is done, I think, and old Sherwood receivers and similar items used. Mine is nothing spectacular, but it works in general. It shows differences when a piece is changed. >>>>>>I’ll be the judge of that. Your opinion is kinda irrelevant. Works in general is not what we call ready for Prime Time. We are throwing your results out. 4. Everything seemed to be working as expected. No hum, buzz, nothing unusual. >>>>>>Well, working as YOU expected. See the problem? 5. I doubt that, although it is of course possible. I hear all the frequencies with a small dip in acuity at 14000 or 15000 Hz (I forgot which one it was about two months ago) and have no hair over the ears. >>>>>Of course hearing as a skill has very little to do with frequency response. Especially a self appointed anti audiophile. This is obviously your first rodeo. It’s not mine. 🤠 6. That one is hard to measure, but I, in fact, wanted to hear the difference. If anything, I was more biased towards confirming than rejecting the hypothesis. Aside of that, there was another pair of ears (much younger and completely unbiased, practically not even being aware of this thread) that also could not hear any difference. I have left that fact out until now to be one to one level comparison. >>>>>Whatver. 7. The day was beautiful. Points 8 and 9 are impossible to evaluate for an ordinary person. Tuneland experts and me included. We have to assume that those were equal at the time of testing. Next stop Bora Bora. Everything sounds better when the floor is of volcanic origin. Much better than maple. >>>>>Keep a log. Solar flare and sunspot activity is undated daily on: https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/solar-activity Obviously folks would rather sweep this issue under the carpet. quick summary: pretend all the variables don’t exist. Then demand your negative results count as much as positive results. |
@jf47t Of course it doesn’t. The can of worms that keep getting opened on this thread are from the trolls making claims that their questions don’t get answered. Ok, that’s your spin. Now try on for the moment putting it the honest way: In this thread Michael Green has made claims about how altering certain features of a piece of gear changes the sound, and some people have asked reasonable questions about those claims which Michael Green has not answered. Really, just try even saying that out loud. Being able to speak the truth is good for the soul. Instead, you continue to imply that those of us noting Michael’s evasions are "trolls," where in fact, we are simply reporting the fact Michael hasn’t answered the questions. A fact you can't show to be wrong, so you continually resort to name calling. What is it that you have against basic decency and honesty? Why can’t you just admit the questions I asked of Michael - e.g. on what technical basis do capacitors change the sound signal when untied and are there measurements to verify this? - have not been answered by Michael? They are simple, obvious, basic questions any "engineer" making a technical claim, or anyone familiar with empirical science, would expect to be asked and would have an answer for. Imagine an engineer in a professional engineering society makes the claim that untying capacitors alter the sound signal. He can absolutely expect, as sure as day follows night, to be asked questions like "what is the technical basis for that claim, what technical parameters change, and what measurements support this claim?" The fact that Michael Green refuses to answer these simple, logical, normal empirical questions - not "demands" as you need to characterize them - speaks volumes about his insecurity in the face of such questions. The fact Michael may have ever measured anything before - e.g. resonant qualities of X material, or taking room measurements after placing room treatments - does NOT justify every claim he makes. So pointing to some other incident of Michael measuring something does not answer the specific questions about, say, the capacitor tweak he claimed in this thread. On your...sorry...Michael’s...thin-skinned account that my asking such questions is what a troll would do, then engineering and scientific community would be comprised of "trolls" because they...gasp...."demand" answers to these types of questions. Let’s try an empirical prediction: If this post is answered by jf47t, we can expect something along the lines of "Michael, The Great Empiricist, answers those questions ALL THE TIME!" Yet we can predict he will not, in fact, answer the questions I’ve asked. Nothing evil is going on here from the other side. Just simple, normal questions like "can you give more information in support of that claim?"But jj47t/Michael Green have painted "themselves" into a corner from the start by first calling out people asking such questions as "fakers" and "talkers" and trolls, Trolls, TROLLS! (I’ve never seen such liberal use of that epithet!). So now they can’t answer these questions in an honest way such as "I don’t have such measurements, but here is why I think the claim has a basis in reality..." because that would be to answer to trolls...Trolls...TROLLS!!!!!!! This really is the strangest performance I’ve ever seen from a manufacturer. |
Uh, demands for proof and demands for measurements are the tools of the obstreperous and irascible troll. Whether trolls think of themselves as trolls is a philosophical question which is worthy of a thread all by itself. Of course, trolls portray themselves as honest law abiding skeptics, devil’s advocates or a friendly helpers just trying to provide positive criticism. Trying to rid the world of scammers, hoaxsters, charlatans, purveyors of the paranormal, Quantum shysters and evil doers. Protectors of the realms of decency, Science, and religion. Kind of the George Bushes of the audio world, if you will. On a campaign, a crusade, to exterminate anyone who looks cross-eyed at them. 🏰 |
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geoff Uh, demands for proof and demands for measurements are the tools of the obstreperous and irascible troll. I love it! The enterprises of engineering and science becomes, on geoff’s account, "trolling." I’m sure it would perfectly suit geoff’s world if anyone could get up to the podium, make a claim, and not be asked for any backing data or cogent theory. "What? You don’t just accept what I’m telling you about my magic pebbles or teleportation tweaks? TROLLS!" It’s ok geoff, we know: You weren’t really impugning the methods of engineering and science. It’s actually ok to ask skeptical questions and measure things in those disciplines. It’s only in desperation, when you don’t have any ammunition against someone’s position, but want to call them a name anyway out of frustration, that you seek any excuse to throw words like "troll" at them. Someone asks a skeptical question, or for any data for a claim? I don't like them: TROLL! But we do understand how critical thinking and skepticism are "the enemy" to folks like yourself, and your "products." When are you joining the Tuneland forum? They need more people who think like you there! (Or...anyone...really...) |
Inside every mild mannered pseudo skeptic is an angry snarky troll dying to get out. The pretense of not finding answers to your questions is touching. But it has become your only mantra. If skeptics really wanted to know something they would have taken the trouble to find out a long time ago. I have not mentioned my products but thanks for including them in your so-called rant. Guess you’re out of ammo again. Gee, I was expecting a tan and rested professor. Instead I get Manfred Milktoast. |
For the on-lookers "An Internet troll is someone who joins an online discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, it is quickly evident that their sole purpose is to upset everyone. They will lie, exaggerate, defame and vituperate just to create a response and derail a thread. Some researchers from Canada sought to find out what type of person would do this and why. Their study, published in the September 2014 issue of Personality and Individual Differences, found that cybertrolling was an Internet manifestation of everyday sadism. Researchers conducted two online studies of 1,200 people. They gave personality tests to each one and surveyed their Internet commenting behavior. They were looking for evidence of what is termed the “Dark Tetrad” of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy and sadism. What they found was that Dark Tetrad scores were highest among people who said their favorite activity was trolling. The study authors wrote that the Dark Tetrad scores were off the charts for Internet trolls and “… the associations between sadism and GAIT (Global Assessment of Internet Trolling) scores were so strong that it might be said that online trolls are prototypical everyday sadists.” But it’s just as likely the annoying troll on your favorite site is simply mentally ill. When you respond, you’re just feeding his psychopathy. The best advice is, if you see one, don’t feed him." Prof & Glupson I truly do feel bad for you but the OP does call you out. Your responses to this has been well documented on this thread. |
jf47t, What’s it like not to be able to engage in honest conversation? What’s it like to want to evade honest, reasonable questions so badly, that all you can do is repeat calling someone names over, and over and over? Have you not given any thought as to the look you are giving your company here? Of course, after implying yet again I and others are trolls for asking questions, instead of showing where those questions were answered (doesn’t exist here) you’ve again produced another empty evasive post simply calling people names. And of course you can’t, and haven’t once, pointed to anything I’ve written that was a "lie" or that was untrue, or unreasonable to ask, or that I’ve "defamed" anyone etc. You are just throwing garbage at this forum, and hoping it sticks. Please...stick to Tuneland for that kind of stuff. You already have a thread going there where you can badly mischaracterize anyone you want and yell Troll! Troll! Troll! without anyone around to push back by pointing to reality. There’s got to be something in you recognizing what you are doing. But, hey, since you can’t help yourself, stay tuned for another look at your troll description again....;-) |
Hi Al Well many reasonable people do and have disagreed with prof and glupson as you can read for yourself. And to some extent some others who have ducked in and out to expressed their spin on what is a simple OP. If you truly felt this was a "useless thread" I doubt you would have taken the time to post. With internet trolling in audio forums being so prevalent the question needs and has needed to be raised (why fake it?). Most HEA folks have left the scene a few years back in disgust that these forums have become infested with internet trolls and people who talk but don't walk or this thread wouldn't have continued for so long without signs of cooling down. |
prof "Ad nauseam is a Latin term for argument or other discussion that has continued 'to nausea'. For example, the sentence "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam" signifies that the topic in question has been discussed extensively, and that those involved in the discussion have grown tired of it. The fallacy is also called argumentum ad infinitum, and argument from repetition." You've bored MG off the pages now you're boring me. |
LOL we did but the professor couldn’t answer them. I believe him and glupson got stuck on the question "can you hear". If I’m not mistaken prof was wondering if listening was his imagination or something real or some kind of rambling like that. After that most of their talk ended up on the troll pile. Glupson only here cause he "is wasting time" and prof because he wants to get into that old can you really hear it spinOrama. |
Huh, I have not checked my favorite thread in a day or two and there is jf47t back. And again, portraying Michael Green as an everyday sadist. For Heaven's sake, stop it. It is really ridiculous. Just stop right there. Talk about music, CDs, soundstage, weather, enjoyment in life, anything, but stop trying to defend Michael Green. It is insulting to even read such incompetent attempts, or maybe defamation of him is your real intent. Stop it, it is painful. As far as hearing goes, it is not a skill. Hearing is a sense that most of the people are born with. For the last time, results of my tuning/tweaking experiment are relevant, real, and are the only relevant ones I know. Get used to it. Whoever does anything similar can hold her/his results as true and relevant. prof, The reason answers are not coming may be a bit more complex than just there being no known answers. This is not the place to chat about them, though. Your questions are perfectly reasonable, but your expectations are not. This thread has always been interesting for any reason, but sound reproduction. Nothing to be learned about that. Are there people on Tuneland? |
"Well many reasonable people do and have disagreed with prof and glupson as you can read for yourself."It would be acceptable and even welcome to disagree. It would, in healthy environment, enhance the discussion and bring new ways of thinking. However, I am puzzled by many reasonable people who have disagreed with prof and me. It is fine, but how come they have not done it publicly? |
geoffkait, >>>>>Keep a log. Solar flare and sunspot activity is undated daily on:Despite our differences, I am glad that you found the link I provided for you helpful. However, I thought it gets updated daily. |
@glupson, with every nonsensical post, jf47t/MG/cult leader is doing more to damage any credibility that the Tuneland forum may have had here than any other poster. His constant "I know you are, but what am I?" and "..."troll, troll, TROLL!" schtick got old pages ago. But, I have to say, it is quite entertaining to read his responses every time you and prof give him a beatdown.... |
glupson geoffkait: “Kind of the George Bushes of the audio world,..." Planck, Einstein, Kim Jong Un, and now we have a newcomer on this thread. How do I seriously show this to anyone and claim it is a thread on an audio reproduction forum? >>>>You have a very limited view of audio forums in particular and the internet in general, or so it would appear. Of course, you could be faking. If you are faking you’re doing an excellent job! |
glupson geoffkait, >>>>>Keep a log. Solar flare and sunspot activity is undated daily on: https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/solar-activity Despite our differences, I am glad that you found the link I provided for you helpful. However, I thought it gets updated daily. >>>>Huh? I’ve been providing the link to spaceweather.com here for at least 15 years. Your log’s pages are empty, Mr. Clean Slate. |
"For the on-lookers..." To those who have visited the Tuneland forum, especially the Tuneland thread devoted to this Agon thread, have you noticed something kind of odd? Something...missing? Is there ANYONE we've seen more enthusiastic about Michael Green, and more involved with that MG is doing and thinking 24/7 than his fervent devotee jf47t? It was jf47t who has mostly taken over from MG here and who posted the links to the Tuneland thread about this thread, and has constantly updated and reminded us about that Tuneland thread. And yet, jf47t doesn't seem to appear anywhere as a participant on that Tuneland thread (or, as far as I can see, anywhere in that Tuneland forum subsection). Isn't it....odd...that MG's interest level in this thread remained so high as to create his own ongoing Tuneland thread monitoring this one, and to have jf47t continually show up to interact here and point to that Tuneland thread as it updates, and yet when you leave Audiogon and go to that Tuneland thread, "jf47t" seems nowhere to be found and it's only MG posting? (With a couple comments from one other participant who doesn't seem to be jf47t)? Maybe it's worth asking: jf47t, given it seems you post so often in this thread, and seem just as enthusiastic as Michael about discussing the "trollish" behavior here, and clearly continually visit the Tuneland thread you keep linking to: why do you show apparently zero interest in participating in the Tuneland thread? Couldn't Tuneland use more participation from folks like yourself? |
My system is posted on Tuneland. I genuinely wanted to learn more about this tuning thing. Thus far all I have learned is that Tuneland is a very sleepy place and no ideas or help thus far. Heck, I tried to purchase some tone-wood footers and could not even get that done. Seems little talk and no walk. Not impressed. I am most open minded and like to learn how others obtain great sound. Seems Tuneland has nothing to offer but vague language and strangly cluttered listening spaces. |
That's too bad grannyring. You certainly struck me as sincere in being open to Tuning. Though I doubt anyone who visits Tuneland will be much surprised. Michael Green's posts on Agon foretell what you would likely find there. It's long on talk...but with very little substance or precision. Mostly just self-promotion posts by MG from what I can see. |
prof, (writing to jf47t) "...why do you show apparently zero interest in participating in the Tuneland thread?"Michael Green, who is the host of the Tuneland forum (not associated with the video game, I think), a long time ago did mention that trolls are not allowed at Tuneland. I am still puzzled by these links and invitations to go there. It does not seem like a good match for most of the people from this thread here. jf47t calls me a troll and then in a post addressed to me puts the link to Tuneland. If there is a logic to it, it is well-hidden. |
"I was pretty sure that would go over your head as soon as I said it."It might have gone even higher above you, geoffkait. I am rarely the shorty in the room. "I’ve learned I really enjoying interacting with clean slates."I aim to please, enjoy these free gifts provided by me. If you were willing to consider what others are telling you, you could learn much more about yourself. There is room for improvement. You have knowledge, but it gets annihilated by personality that strives for conflict in the safety of this virtual world. Many of us would appreciate if you changed your approach. |
While your smug sarcasm and keen psychological analysis is sort of an improvement to your usual droning and whining in terms of entertainment value I’m still not sure I completely understand exactly why you’re still here. You’re kind of like the dude who gets emotionally involved on a Football forum who doesn’t even like football or know the rules of the game. I suspect all you have left in the chamber are more personal attacks and idle questions. When you can’t win the technical arguments you huff and puff and try to win the personal arguments. Bring it on! I trust I will not be billed for your psychoanalysis. |
grannyring My system is posted on Tuneland. I genuinely wanted to learn more about this tuning thing. Thus far all I have learned is that Tuneland is a very sleepy place and no ideas or help thus far. Heck, I tried to purchase some tone-wood footers and could not even get that done. Seems little talk and no walk. Not impressed. I am most open minded and like to learn how others obtain great sound. Seems Tuneland has nothing to offer but vague language and strangly cluttered listening spaces. >>>While I have not gone to Tuneland so can’t comment I do think that these days Audiogon is very active compared to most if not all other audio forums, with a wide range of topics and deep analysis of just about anything you can think of. Many audio sites that were once very active are dead or dying. There is no substitute for Action, gentle readers. All you often need to learn how to obtain great sound is right here in your own back yard. Playing hard to get ne’er won fair maiden. |
prof That’s too bad grannyring. You certainly struck me as sincere in being open to Tuning. Though I doubt anyone who visits Tuneland will be much surprised. Michael Green’s posts on Agon foretell what you would likely find there. It’s long on talk...but with very little substance or precision. Mostly just self-promotion posts by MG from what I can see. >>>>Translation - There no measurements. AND if there are any measurements they’re not to within 0.1 dB or 1 Hz or out to 3 MHz or whatever. Whatever that would even mean. In other words, Substance = measurements. Precision = measurements. Measurements, you know, the things for people who can’t hear and Doubting Thomases. Or Doubting Glupsons. No, glupson I don’t mean the hearing you’re born with. The demands for measurements and proof continueth unabated, gentle readers. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...oh, never mind. |
"Thus far all I have learned is that Tuneland is a very sleepy place and no ideas or help thus far." Really? I’ve let MG know. I see something different on TuneLand. In the last 24hrs for example I’ve seen posts from Malaysia, Singapore, Norway the US of course and other parts of the world all doing the tune an interacting with Michael and each other. |
@jf47t The question put to you earlier jf47t was: If the Tuneland forum is so wonderful and such a font of interaction and information, and you seem to be visiting there so often as to tell us what's been posted over the last 24 hours: Why don’t you seem to participate in the Tuneland forum? Don’t you have anything to ask...or to offer there? Especially: why aren’t you showing up in the Tuneland thread about this thread? You sure like discussing tuning and us poor trolls here; why not there, where you have a thread devoted to us that you continually link to? |
