Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
kosst_amojan Why's there this sideways expectation that folks aren't legit audiophiles unless they indulge in all the snake oil?There is no such expectation. |
jf47t, Posting the OP yet again! I wonder what you think you possibly gain by reposting the OP like a brainwashed bot who can only Praise The Guru and mindlessly repeat His Words? That MG is apparently looking over your shoulder on all this stuff speaks quite a lot to the type of Followers He is looking for and the level of discourse one will find in His Method. I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, That was MG’s "talk." Yet when asked to "walk" and show his claims would hold up to the scrutiny one would find in "empirical testing labs" and among "science folk," ....MG suddenly evades, evades and then vanishes. It was just talk. |
@geoffkait In the case of some of the others here, I suspect they’re either disinterested, overly skeptical or don’t get good results with what little they do so they give up.Good point Geoff, I plant my flag firmly in the "disinterested" camp (although somewhat amused....and not retired) Snar-ko-lep-syDon't leave out "walkers"....Snarky Walker Alert.... https://static2.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/walking-dead-decaying-zombies.jpgOk, in all seriousness, based on @glupson 's recommendation, I visited Tuneland including the products pages and forum, but not the "members only" section. Unfortunately I came away with more questions than answers;
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mitch2, Your questions were exactly why I thought Tuneland may not be the best place for most of the people from this thread. It raises too many questions that are better left unasked. Did you also find the part of Tuneland you visited not overly educative in terms of tuning? There is a lot about how great it sounds, but not much about how to do it. Maybe I just did not find it. The point #7 is a little puzzling. Was I so naive to think that everyone here has already thought it was like that? |
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To jf47t: Which one of you two are making this stuff up? With the rising number of listeners moving from higher to lower mass systems the original audiopoint that MG introduced in the early 90's worked well with some of the amps of that time, but by the time the mid 90's were here the brass "zing" was becoming obvious as products changed their component materials. News Flash! Material science, manufacturing materials and manufacturer’s financial operating budgets which control materials selections change every day of the year and not every half decade. Your statement bears no merit. To the best of our knowledge this storyboarding cannot be supported or verified by Industry so, do you really expect us to believe this philosophical rhetoric? And... Nice attempt at boxing the Audio Point™ into a small corner - zing! This year we are predicting to succeed a half million units sold, so it is obvious the AP’s continue to work well in a lot of speaker applications, OEM and DIY electronic and chassis modifications including “modern day” electronic equipment packages to boot! Regards to the ‘lower mass systems’ portion of your statement - what exactly are you attempting to convey? Is the lighter mass better than greater mass? Does mass reduction sound better? Is the so called move to lighter mass a result of Industry or public trending? We never knew of this phenomenon taking place and truthfully would never consider it an issue of any importance. When you analyze a well ‘engineered’ mechanically grounded racking system, the equipment chassis weight or materials chemistry makeup being placed on the platform is not a concern. If the device weighs two pounds of plastic or two-thousand pounds of metal alloy - the platform performs as geometry and material science determines function. You can place a speaker, transformer, electric fan motor, industrial machine, CD player, turntable, grand piano, vibes, or any “amplifier from the early 90’s” on top where the product operational efficiency and performance increases remain remarkably consistent. If you look at TuneLand you can see the evolution of components and the need for several different types of mechanical grounding methods and tools.
You will always be making different tools for all types of components and speaker systems because wood is an extremely inefficient material for conducting resonance to ground. Any material of any size or shape will have an audible effect (positive and negative) when positioned between any components or speaker chassis contacting a wood surface or any surface for that matter. We are of the opinion that racking designers who choose wood as a shelf material for mechanical grounding or isolation rack designs attempt to match the resonant frequency of the component and footer system to establish a desired sonic in combination with the audible sound of the wood shelf vibrating. This process becomes rather difficult when the equipment has different types of footer systems. Correct us if we are wrong in this theory but someone has to take a shot at explaining in basic terms how ‘tuning’ works. The variable adjustment or tuning process works towards matching the resonant frequencies of the equipment, footer systems and audible sonic of the wood shelf into one sound by applying tension (compression and expansion) altering the harmonic structure of the whole. Manufacturers who do not use the variable adjusting methodology generally apply a greater mass of wood to dissipate and/or absorb resonance and/or apply damping materials such as rubber, sand, metals, etc to attain their desired product performance. If mechanical grounding is still the determining philosophy on how OP’s racks work then making a host of additional blocks, spheres, cones, springs, etc., will equate to a never ending ‘racking accessories for sales list’. Which ones do or should I purchase to use with what application? The gambit begins... If any component footer outperforms another, the reason is directly related to the rack design or medium on which the footer resides. The difficult part is manufacturing a footer that is well accepted by a majority of listeners, becomes and remains popular for use in multiple applications and stands the test of time. Jf47t, what you describe as a better sounding product may not be the case when considering all the various racking, resonance management techniques and shelving systems available in today's marketplace - zing... As stated earlier, there is never a sonic reference point established using a variable adjusting methodology as everything related to sound reproduction remains in a state of flux.
Everyone here is participating on the "AudioGon Forum". Why not provide direct links to your planned destinations as this will save listeners a lot of time in searching and navigating your site. The down side is you would not have to sell and resell and now more than ever - over sell your website on this forum. Plus it would stop a lot of public confusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuneland We are still waiting for an address location where that tunable recording studio is located; remember the one you recently bragged about with the three variable rooms where all the covers are removed from all equipment including the mixers. Robert PS - I spoke with any old touring friend of mine who worked live sound as an FOH Engineer for thirty years prior to retiring from the road. He is an Industry specialist and repairs both sound reinforcement mixers and elaborate recording desks (one of the few in the country that can repair any make, model, etc). He works out of Bauder Audio Systems in the greater Philadelphia, PA area. I told him the story about the covers being removed from the studio mixers and the response that followed cannot be printed here ⌣. I am definitely under the opinion you will not gain too many followers or walkers from that part of the “plug and play” industry. |
Uh, Robert, we’ve already covered the dodgy subject of why low mass systems have advantages over, you could even say they’re superior to, high mass systems. Your friend and humble scribe laid out all the gory details the other day. Were you on holiday? Here it is again in compressed form. I am not trying to put words in Michael’s mouth, by the way. He almost certainly has his own words. These are my own observations with my own low mass system. Ooops, there’s that word again! Observations. Low Mass System Advantages No big honking 🦆 transformer or one that has been removed and relocated elsewhere. No big capacitors that vibrate and shift the phase. No large chassis that vibrates. No fuse to worry about. Minimizes internal wiring, about 50% of which is soldered in the wrong direction anyway. Plus there is simply LESS things to distort the signal or vibrate. Lightweight components are easier to isolate from vibration. Cost is much lower. You can spend more on tweaks or whatever. 😄 If the low mass system is battery powered (like mine) you get all the advantages of getting off the grid, eliminating ground issues and power cord issues, including RF coming in on the AC line. Also, no fuse, no transformer, no interconnects, no speaker cable. No more teacher’s dirty looks. 🤨 |
thecarpathian, I was quoted on Tuneland for saying people here have been polite enough not to infiltrate Tuneland. They got named "cockroaches" although for cockroaches better word would probably be "infest". I warned Audiogon crowd would have a field day there and it is better that two sites stay divided. Well, the dam has broken and Tuneland is here now, for better or worse. If nothing else, it will increase the traffic at Tuneland which may be a fair trade-off. |
thecarpathian, Yup, that is what I found, too. Not much I could find about actual tuning and what to do about it, but it was interesting nevertheless. I am glad I was directed there. It could not be used for audio-topic, but in sociology and a few more branches of behavioral science, it would be good for a thesis or two. That is what my "interesting" referred to. A whole new world I was unaware existed. Almost giving up on gaining any more knowledge about actual music reproduction, I read with real interest. What I find either strange or, if it is all real, disturbing is the fact that most non-MG posts are written in the same manner. As if it was only one person writing them. It is probably not true, but having only one-minded crowd around rarely brings any progress. And to be that similar? As jf47t once mentioned in his reply to me....scary. Unless it is really only one person writing. Then it would be a mix of baffling and sad. On the positive side, Michael Green that I know from this thread here comes across as less of a religious figure and more of a person you/I/anyone can agree or disagree with and imagine meeting in real life. In other words, more down to this planet. I have had no complaints about him here, despite some disagreements. In fact, I think he is an asset. I wish he visited more often. He does make me think and consider things from angles I am not used to. |
All this talking and yet as the walking is being done listeners are indeed leaving their high mass systems for lower mass. Mods, please disregard my post alert. thank you For those asking, if you go to www.michaelgreenaudio.net and click on forum it will take you to TuneLand. As the trolls on this thread become more desperate as well as former short term employees of Michael's (guys who didn't cut the grade) they are talking without actually walking. As the OP points out these people are obviously "fakes". On TuneLand you can read start to finish system tuning. |
"thecarpathian This was funny! For Geoff this must be a lot of fun. For example how far off the mark audiopoint is is shocking. It appears Robert has stepped on his own landmine and has indeed backed his own company into a corner. MG has barely said a word but Robert again is one of these guys who can't help himself. I did ask MG earlier today what he thought of this thread and he shared with me what he has been doing on the referencing thread on TuneLand. Funny stuff. |
It seems to me real audiophiles, shall we call them the doers or the walkers, are oft viewed by non audiophiles and anti tweakers, you know, the idlers or the talkers, as kind of kooky or fringe or weird, or even cultish. Nothing new there. Have you ever watched an audiophile perform a ritualistic treatment of a CD before each play? I used to think that was a little obsessive. 😬 Reading glupson’s story of his visit is reminiscent of watching some teetering eighth graders looking through their first Glamour magazine. Hard to believe there are such virgins. 👶 Why, it’s almost like he thinks this is the invasion of the body snatchers. I’m not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame 🔥 in a few hearts. ♥️ - Kooky Burns ”Turn on, tune in, drop dead.” - Alfred E. Newman 😬 Made the scene, week to week Day to day, hour to hour The gate is straight Deep and wide Break on through to the other side Break on through to the other side Break on through, break on through |
jf47t, "On TuneLand you can read start to finish system tuning." Is there any way you could point out where? I tried the link below and under it "more info". The only thing that it did is showed me pictures of a building, including what looks like a dressing/make up room. Is there any other place I should look for info about how to do the tuning? Not the theory, the actual work. https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/about-tuning A few of us have pointed out on a few occasions, the website really needs some reworking. |
jf47t, https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune-rtd2 Slide show on above page (I think it is slide 9) has decibel with capital D, but abbreviation as db. It would be more correctly dB and decibel. Not a biggie, but just so you know. |
No big rush glupson take your time. TuneLand has tons of empirical walking posted all over it's pages. As you guys settled down and start reading some of the different listeners threads you'll be able to see how folks went from finding out about tuning to implementing tuning themselves. You'll see how many different tools Michael Green has designed and his background that got him into the designing. Michael has been asked to make a series of videos so I would think at that time the site will be updated some. Websites never stop being updated that's the magic of the internet. |
jf47t, While you are at that, welcome page, Bandroom Room Tuning, click for more info. The link does not work. "...how folks went from finding out about tuning..."They must have worked very hard. It is not that easy to find it. More like a scavenger hunt. Eventually, you can pick up bits and pieces from the side of the road, but road signs are missing big time. The magic of the Internet is also that it is easy to leave if something is too complicated. It takes about four clicks to get anywhere in that universe. Edit: Actually, it takes exactly 19. From Bandroom Room Tuning (when it works) to donations for extinct rhinoceros. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/any-two-pages-on-the-web-are-connected-by-19-clicks-or... |
Hi Glupson I’ll be sure to share your latest posting with MG. I’m sure he’ll be wanting to include it on the TuneLand thread. Hey your becoming famous glupson. The content your asking about has been moved a couple of times since UMI originally made the Power Point for Michael Green Audio. http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=103 UMI (United Musical Instruments) since bought out by http://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us As you know Michael has worked with and beside a long list of musical instrument companies, would you like their names? |
glupson jf47t, https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune-rtd2 Slide show on above page (I think it is slide 9) has decibel with capital D, but abbreviation as db. It would be more correctly dB and decibel. Not a biggie, but just so you know. >>>>A typical English major comment. “Not a biggie.” You got that right. 😝 |
jf47t, Feel free to use any of my comments for improvement of your website. That is why I wrote them. If Michael had accepted that offer at Oneonda, he would have needed to pay attention to those details and corrected his students so they could improve. However, it is much easier to notice and correct afterwards, the way I just did, than not to make a mistake while creating something. It is easy to overlook details while creating. Also, thank you for that link to the instruments company (Conn & Selmer). It is, in fact, attaining such knowledge that I find this thread useful for. Something I would have never looked up myself and that I have no knowledge about. No use for it, either, but I like learning. If I could give you that fame you say I am acquiring here, I would give it to you in a heartbeat. You seem to crave and need it much more than I do. |
thecarpathian, You must be new on this thread, when you still ask what response is. With a decent certainty, responses to questions about facts here are diverse. They range from "troll" to "trolling". It is, by no means, frequent response specifically from jf47t. It is simply "the response" and used by anyone. |
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@geoffkait,
Solution: I really enjoy the big sound and dynamic headroom generated from “big honking” transformers and high power. There is no need to relocate it. For the DIY or serious learner, simply remove the rubber gaskets and mechanically ground it to the chassis (there is a cone for this application). The majority of mechanical and electromechanical noise will transfer at high speed to the chassis. Then mechanically ground the chassis to the racking mass to complete the high speed resonance transfer process and you are rewarded with more quality of sound, a cooler running temperature and most importantly - layered harmonics and dynamics that will soar through the roof! No big capacitors that vibrate and shift the phase. Solution: Mechanically ground the caps too! The transformer and power supply are the primary culprits for forming resonance. The caps as well as all key parts (outputs and circuit) should also be grounded separately to the chassis. This leaves each part to independently vibrate on its own accord without the influence of vibration affecting other parts and transfer resonance to chassis mass as it forms. The component operational efficiency will increase substantially without affecting the sonic character of the amplifier. Phase issues are a direct result from resonance build up without an effective mechanical grounding plane. No large chassis that vibrates. Really? Even small chassis vibrate. Any device that demands AC or DC power to operate will vibrate and form resonance but you already knew that. No fuse to worry about. Never had any issue with fuse protection for safety reasons. Minimizes internal wiring, about 50% of which is soldered in the wrong direction anyway. Plus there is simply LESS things to distort the signal or vibrate. GK, you can manage vibration - right? I would not know what music would sound like without distortion properties. After all that is how tubes establish their sonic profile as well as musical instruments - they distort! In a perfect world with no vibration or distortion would music have sound? Lightweight components are easier to isolate from vibration. We cannot comment on isolation as that was part of our past where those theories have long played out over time. I know isolation techniques; specifically springs always had issues dealing with various component weights. Need a thin spring for this two pound product and require a different version for that hundred pound device and an automobile sized spring for that three hundred pound speaker has always been the stumbling block. We no longer deal in that realm as weight is never an issue with our technology. In your opinion GK, are we walking yet? My personal tastes require a sound system that generates both mind and physical stimulus. I need to feel the kick drum in my chest and the bass guitar moving my feet where headphones do not satisfy my personal listening requirements. There are no industry related findings or proof that differences between high mass and limited mass systems exist. They all vibrate alike. It appears to be just personal opinions that are being presented here where ‘solutions’ on the other hand appear to be in limited supply. Give me that “big honker” of a transformer, lots of power with a 4 kHz snap in a kick drum and I’ll vibrate the world… ⌣ Robert |
To jf47t who plays both sides of the fence. As the trolls on this thread become more desperate as well as former short term employees of Michael's (guys who didn't cut the grade) they are talking without actually walking. Guess you’re attempting to spout off at Peter or me in referencing your difficulties understanding why we are no longer employees of that guy who has only twenty-five (25) year old images of himself posted on his site? According to your discrediting statement we talk and do not walk however in our meager defense, please examine our list of talkers or whatever name calling you wish to provide today. We are a professional organization in comparison to your extremely limited current vision of audio related talent. Here is a list of our company “runners”. http://starsoundtechnologies.com/aboutUs.php Now please show us yours… Star Sound |
audiopoint, Aside of yours and Michael Green's disagreement here, it Is interesting to see your point regarding tuning. To those who have not jumped on board, and probably never will, it shows some other view. I, personally, wish I had more technical knowledge and time to discuss it deeper, but I am glad I can learn your points. Thanks for participating. |
Robert, you say ground the transformer to the chassis. I say isolate the chassis and everything else inside the chassis from the transformer. Why anyone would wish to drive the circuit boards and everything else with 60 Hz vibration is beyond me. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. To use the LIGO analogy if you ground the surroundings to the mirrors you see the vibration not the gravity waves. Follow? |
prof is on holiday. Remember? Of course if he was a real audiophile he’d at least take a peek on his iPhone. I guess he just doesn’t want to be bothered. 😥 I suspect he probably brought along Zen and the Art of Debunkery to read on the plane. My guess is there will be a sudden flurry of well thought out pseudo arguments soon as he returns. |
Geoff Your springs present no exit path for resonance to vacate the parts or the chassis..Ours do and furthermore they reject energy from below that attempts to re enter either by hard contact or by reflection onto the Audiopoint..Our brass coupling discs maintain impedance and transfer speed, the disc shape diffuses interference the tip geometry rejects the left overs. MG has no clue how these devices work. Butt now after 30 years and reading this post he might..well maybe not..Blocks of wood sound better when they are used in inconjuction with and grounded with our points and discs as are cello and bass. Tom |
theaudiotweak - you really don’t pay attention, do you? We’ve been over this many times before. I never said Springs allow vibration to get out. You’re embarrassing yourself. I feel embarrassed for you. 😬 Head down to your local library and study up on mass on spring isolation. You haven’t leaned a damned thing. Besides, I just got through describing why seismic vibration takes precedence over induced vibration. Were you snoozing? Eat more fish. 🐟 🐟 🐟 🐠 God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. |
