This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
While studying at school, I had the thought that I would no longer study, since it is difficult, I highly recommend the expert essay writers to you, it will help you, even if you have exactly the same thoughts, any kind of paper writing help is provided by them
After wasting a couple hours reading through this entire thread I can confidently state that never before have I seen so many words devoted to so little substance.
Lizzie would welcome you back too, I’m not 100% but it appears her self-destruct button blew itself up. Anyway, huggies from Lizzie in anesthesia, I mean abstensia.
I've enjoyed watching some of you convert your systems from high mass to low mass this year, from small soundstages to huge and more than anything watching you go from saying "bad recordings" to "I can hear how good they are now". Discovering low mass and Tuning is setting the hobbyist free one by one and more grow interested every day.
The key to all this has been those who decided to explore, and explore more than lip service. Thank you for your emails, facebook visits and PMs.
Someone said to me earlier "good to have you back". Well I'm not back I'm just stopping by to answer the requests and to recruit folks looking and listening for the next personal listening level beyond HEA's over built/over priced dead end.
barbr555 HEA forums are no different from other online places where the exchange of ideas and learning e.g. astrophotography, photography, etc. the participants generally loose focus...
>>>>>>....astrophotography, photography, etc. the participants generally loose (sic) focus. Good one! 🤡
Well said. Methinks too often people get stuck in the weeds and forget
the true purpose of a forum such as this. Tuneland may be the exception
but in general, HEA forums are no different from other online places
where the exchange of ideas and learning e.g. astrophotography,
photography, etc. the participants generally loose focus and go off the
deep end. No one started out in this hobby an expert. They had to
learn from those that came before.
https://www.grademiners.com/
"So Elizabeth, do you consider your pair of 20.7’s (though I own a pair of Tympani T-IVa, I’m envious) a musical instrument? Conversely, is a piano, guitar, bass, or drumset a loudspeaker? ;-)"
Here’s is what I believe. I believe we all have an opportunity to grow closer together or further apart from each other. None of us are going to change what is. We are either going to continue to open our minds up or we will go through life thinking it is the next person that is the one with the closed mind even though we know our ego is resisting being as open as it can.
That’s the truth about talking and walking. The truth sits there and is always available if we choose to take up our walking stick and discovering it. We get stuck looking and listening to each other and it doesn’t take much for that to be our excuse not to take the next steps in learning. Once we get past that we start learning together and off of each other instead of thinking we have the answer exclusively.
In regards to the variables and tuning, it’s nothing we should be even debating and once we get past the debating (talk) we will find ourselves in a new hobby of discovery. Discovery is the act of moving past assumptions. Discovery doesn’t have an ego to let go of that’s something we own ourselves. Something the variables have taught me is, I will always be the student. I might master a few things but I will never stop discovering more.
Thanks for visiting! I would love it if you ended up making TuneLand an extended home, I hope you know you are always welcome!
I wish I had more time than I do, there’s so much to cover and for this hobby (the playback end) tuning has barely been touched, even though it has been around for many years.
"IT is like a dimensional shift. Gee, All I wanted was to dampen out EVERYTHING. And here is this guy writing how that is just wrong. WHAT???"
It’s pretty wild isn’t it? And the fact that I showed the reviewing community Tuning some 25 plus years ago, and even though they agreed after experiencing it, they couldn’t pull the trigger on this big of a change.
Geoff said the other day, he doesn’t believe I have looked at any physics books, little does our friend know. I have had my head buried in physics forever to learn more about what I was experiencing. I’ve had to build my own buildings and everything from the actual musical instrument through to just shy of the human ear to find out what was happening. What I discovered was this massive interaction experiment called Earth. We are living inside of a continuum of interaction. We may think we can hold part of it still but then the clock ticks and we realize even a fixed point in time or sound has moved. Dampening in concept is tricky, just like isolation, but the first step to over come are the absolutes. Once we get our heads around the continuum of motion in time we can then start focusing on the Variables, and that brings us to a different place in our hobby and the control over our hobby and hearing.
We want so bad for these systems to be final but they can’t be, we are on a spinning planet, one that is creating charge and being part of a big system of moving parts all themselves creating and exchanging force. Sounds so cosmic, but it’s just the way it is big or small and audio and hearing just happens to be a part of the interaction.
One by one this hobby will turn to variable tuning as the answer to our listening obsessions. The thought that we live in this particular time in this hobby is pretty special. All the rest is as we have been talking about "talking or walking". And how far we wish to go is on no one but ourselves.
:) so happy you have been taking the steps you have. I’m looking forward to learning with you!
So Elizabeth, do you consider your pair of 20.7’s (though I own a pair of Tympani T-IVa, I'm envious) a musical instrument? Conversely, is a piano, guitar, bass, or drumset a loudspeaker? ;-)
hi orpheus, yes I agree the Heil AMT speakers I had sounded excellent. Of all the speakers I heard back in the day they were my favorites. And that included the KEF 105 and the Dahlquist, the one with five drivers mounted without a box around them. I now have Polk Rtia5 speakers which I like for their smooth laid back quality although I know they are not the best speakers out there, they sound good enough for me. Very easy listening. I also have a pair of ELAC B6 speakers in a closet upstairs.In terms of sound quality for the dollar, these might be the best speaker on the market. Only 250.00 for the pair. TAS said they were the best buy in audio about five years ago and made them their economy speaker of the year. They did an interview in their mag with the designer, Andrew Jones. After reading the reviews in the audio press I bought the speakers.
Let me correct that post; they are as neutral as the sound of an electronics signal with no speaker at all; if a mellow cello is fed to them, that's how they will sound.
Hombre, before CD, I auditioned the ESS Heil, and heard things that I liked, as well as things others describe that I didn't like. That's when I decided to separate the good from the bad; now let us get to the present.
First, I consulted with a cross over design engineer, and told him that I wanted to utilize the Heil-AMT in a pair of custom speakers, and the closest speaker I could find for an example were Theils. We went from there and presently I have custom 3 way speakers with the Heil tweeters, 6 inch midrange, and 12 inch woofer; they are as mellow as a cello.
I have heard the sound you are talking about since the late 70's with audio equipment and have found it not to be digital but field related. Meaning the materials being used in the components interacting with the audio signal and the fields.
My only complaint about the speakers I've had is the tweeters.I've had Polks, B&W, ESS Heil ,(which had a high frequency driver called an "air motion transformer"), Infinity, JBL, (which sounded unlistenable because of their brightness) and I've heard lots of others. IMO the most difficult thing for a speaker to get right are the high frequencies.Every speaker I remember had the same kind of "gritty" sound at the very high frequencies.The only way I can think of to describe this sound is steel ball bearings rolling around in a steel frying pan.It's discernable in the sound of cymbals.Also in some electric guitars. I can't tell if this is caused by the tweeters or if it's an audible artifact of the digital recording and playback process.I don't remember hearing this distortion on the best analog systems I heard forty years ago. My friend had Quad electrostatics and a high-end TT, Audio Research amp and preamp, and the sound of his system was the only I remember that didn't feature this annoying distortion in the high frequencies. Maybe this is an inherent quality of digital? Or have I just not yet heard the right speakers? Has this distortion I'm describing been experienced by anyone else here?
I’ve been doing some listening evaluating over the past few weeks so didn’t visited here. When I came back it was an interesting thing that I noticed. The ego posturing hadn’t changed a bit. The topics were slightly different but I noticed the personalities of the "talkers" were in the exact same place as when I took my break. Time stood still for these fellas, their agendas hadn’t progressed. The script flip to this is I also noticed the "walkers" had progressed. Some more than others but there were signs of life, a pulse.
The longer you’re here the more you can see the agendas of posters on display. I’m guessing people who read and don’t post are the ones most perceptive. They have no ego at stake in these topics and spins. As for the rest of us there’s more exposed laying on the table.
point and case
I was trolled a day ago fairly obviously and typically I would have just sent in my report and come back to find the post deleted (nice job mods). However sometimes I have that desire to place that internet troll in their place using my wit, facts and a bit of their own medicine. Keep in mind that description is me stroking my own ego in the matter and may not be seen by anyone else the way I viewed my return fire. In fact every time I do fire back there’s that thing in me hoping the Mod will delete not only the troll’s post but as well my follow up firing back. What’s the use of my countersuit if the original has been thrown out of court, in other words. It’s all very interesting looking from the Mods point of view, as well I would suppose the non-posting reader.
My biggest challenge through in the hours, days, weeks and months is time. Because of this I’m usually a yes and no man and move on quickly. When in Agon posting mode though I’m a different type altogether because I am in agenda mode. As I write this for example I’m looking at the top of my screen seeing the flashing of notices of people contacting me by PM. I also know that every few minutes there are emails and other communication building up on my to do lists. Do I get to all of them....lol...would be nice.
trolls
"Talkers" are the definition of internet trolls many times. Their egos are feed by the thought of being noticed or even relevant. They probably do have something to add to the conversation, but what they have gets spun into their need to be negative about something or someone. Insecurity and boredom must play big factors in the mind of those. I question why even show up? And I can see their need to not let things progress.
I was reading a thread that was on Class D amps and how the industry was changing the last few days and wasn’t paying attention to the amount of trolling that was taking place. To me the thread read fairly sensible, but here were all these posts referring to the same thread as being inflammatory. I obviously was picking and choosing what I wanted the thread to be about and wasn’t getting into the mudslinging therefore didn’t even notice it. What I figured at the end of the day was that someone was walking and someone was talking, maybe a little of both.
I prefer the cat analogy. I love cats. If I visit you, and you have a cat, I will love your cat, but my cat is the BEST cat.......no matter what you say.
Shows how out of touch I am. I thought they closed up a few years back. They got a bunch of my goodies over in Nashville (same studios right?). I know he had several buildings. My main contact in LA was A&M so after they closed I mostly got calls from private in-home studios but not too many commercial. That area use to be wall to wall recording hot spots. Probably still is, and I know there's a lot of in-home stuff going on.
MG, the one studio I would love to record in is Ocean Way in Santa Monica; a lot of great sounding recordings come out of that place. I believe it is a favorite of Ry Cooder.
In one interview in England, when asked at a press conference what he considered himself, Dylan replied "A song and dance man". He couldn't hold back the wicked grin that then appeared on his face.
As an addendum to my above comments about the spacing of planars from the wall behind them, 5’ or more is no guarantee that the resulting sound will be good. In 2018 I attended the U.S.A. premiere of the new Magneplanar MG30.7 at a retail location (Echo Audio in Portland Oregon), with Wendell Diller himself having set up the speakers. The 30.7’s were quite a distance from the wall behind them---about 8’, though the bass panels were only a foot or so from the side walls. The sound was surprisingly disappointing to me (I own Tympani T-IVa’s, of which the 30.7 is a reinvention).
I don’t want to say any more about the sound, as the digital-only source material (streamed?) was accessed from a handheld remote controlled by the shop owner, almost all of it previously unheard by myself. The electronics were also unknown to me, and the room itself was completely untreated---absolutely no acoustic treatment. The room was constructed of what appeared to be cement, all the walls bare and very reflective, including of course those behind the speakers. Ridiculous!
Corners are interesting. If you ever map out the room for sound pressure peaks, I.e., reflection points, echo locations, standing waves, etc. what you’ll find is that corners are where very high pressure standing waves set up. Using a SPL meter and test frequency generator what you’ll discover is sound pressure levels in room corners are often 6dB or more than the average sound pressure level in the room.
I did a session at a studio in (coincidently) Studio City (in the San Fernando Valley, just over the Hollywood Hills from L.A.) and the engineer instructed me on where he wanted the drumset. That location happened to put the drum throne about 3’ from a cinder block wall, with my back to the wall. After the first "keeper" take the players went into the control room to have a listen, and I was shocked at how bad the drums sounded. All phasey and "discombobulated", the drums lacking body and tone, the cymbals way too "splashy" (they were very nice sounding Paiste 602’s).
While the engineer reconsidering his mic choices, it occurred to me, based on my awareness of comb-filtering, that the cinder block wall might be the problem. I suggested I move the drumset further away from the wall, and the engineer, though dubious, obliged me. We did another take, and went in to listen. Problem solved! Audiophiles know wall reflections can greatly affect the sound heard in a listening room, but this recording engineer wasn’t aware that the cinder block wall would affect the sound of a drumset? How many recordings had he made with drums in that location?!
At a different session (in Hollywood) a young engineer had set up the main mics, and was now considering where to place his "room" mics. When he stuck one right in the corner where two walls and the ceiling met, I knew the guy had no education in acoustical engineering. The corners, the worst sounding location in any room! I said nothing (you don’t want to get on the bad side of your engineer), and we did a take. Listening to the playback, with the corner-located room mic isolated (the engineer wanted to show-off his talents ;-), the sound was just horrid, like a speaker playing in a 50 gallon metal barrel! Instead of being proud, the engineer was embarrassed; he had revealed his ignorance of basic acoustic theory and the physics of sound. Learning on the job.
With anything it takes a few generations to go from hand adjustments to auto tune. But it's on it's way when listeners are ready. Might not happen in my lifetime but I've already designed the automated tunable room and system. I'm sure I'm not alone in this development. I can't imagine younger minds who have tuned are not already thinking how to incorporate what I have done into the next level. There aren't that many dots to connect when you look at auto-tuning for musical instruments.
With the HEA generation the stalling point was when they took a detour away from adjustability, but as you can see that is quickly being reversed. Sometimes old school doesn't meet new school till an innovation is well into the mainstream. I personally enjoy doing the adjustments by hand much like a musician enjoys playing their instrument, and tuning that instrument to a room and other musical instruments. For HEA though the whole plug & play thing was so heavily pounded into the brains of listeners for so long and with such a cult like loyalty the mere mention of anything variable took away from their climb to the top of the marketing food chain.
Tuning was always going to be the end game when it comes to music and electronics, but when you have a hobby that was so strong with personality types such as the EE generation produced, where numbers are God, you can see where the hold up happened and why. Think about it, we had a whole generation in this hobby who put measurement creating above listening. Numbers are a tool but they are not a note being interpreted by the human brain and senses.
"At the end of the day, don’t get stuck on numbers."
Numbers or understanding/developing calculations can help a person be more efficient. It is all really just patterns of interactions. They are numerous so they become inconvenient to predict, unless someone at some point puts them all together and comes up with a formula/algorithm/something that will take all of them into consideration. Until then, if it has not happened yet, we will be sticking planks on the walls and guess where they should be. And then repeat and repeat and repeat until we get the right combination. It may be fun as a hobby but it is very inefficient if someone’s goal is getting the result and not attempting to get the result. Of course, experience may shorten the experimentation, if that is one’s life calling. For those who do not have that much time, nice calculations would be way more useful.
Other fields have gone quite far with such a mathematical approach. I am not sure that room tuning is that high on this civilization’s list of priorities so maybe that is why the current approach seems to be still 15th century.
Having said that, I wrote it yesterday on another thread but it seems to be more suitable here, I just met a person who studied at the college for which Michael Green did some work on a music hall (or something in that sense). It was mentioned ad nauseam earlier in this thread.
Be it what it is, this person, completely unbiased and not particularly interested in anything regarding audiophile topics, is very impressed with acoustics of that place and the sound that is experienced there.
"as it brings to the fore problems of dogma, and the stuff folks just carry around.. preventing them from looking at problems in a fresh way."
I've had clients first starting to tune completely in audiophile stuck world. They were being controlled by home brewed theories this hobby's "experts" wrote up somewhere and became fake facts. Once these same folks started to allow themselves to be their own experts their systems took huge leaps forward.
I have some listeners when they come to one of my places, I just hand them the keys and I enjoy what they come up with and the way that they tune my systems to their sound.
There was a mastering room I was doing some work on in Nashville. The engineer was remastering some SNL shows and had ordered in some new amps and speakers at the same time I was doing my thing in there. The guys from the speaker company and the mastering engineer were sold on the idea that for true staging there was a certain placement formula that needed to be used. Fine, wasn’t my gig so they did their thing and at the end of the day it sounded horrible. No one liked it, but they were determined to stay on course. A day or two later I asked if I could set things up for the heck of it, and after I got some dirty looks they said go ahead. 2 hours later it was like the SNL cast was walking through the room. Everyone was pretty freaked out and one guy super mad suggesting what I just did couldn’t happen :)
I’ve been through this same thing hundreds, probably thousands, of times in person. Same thing happened when I was a mic tech. The only formula that works is the one you create.
another Nashville example
I was tuning up a drum room and the drummer kept getting mad at me the way I was doing the miking on the kick drum. He got stuck in his head that kick drums don’t have a note but instead are raw pressure. (guess he never met "sugarfoot"). It was a long day and every time we went into the control room you could hear the kick was out of tune throwing off the bass line. Stubborn as he was we ended up retuning the room and kick and mics together. You know how I fixed it. A little thing called a pressure box.
A lot of folks in this hobby try to make full range speakers do what a room is telling them not to do. Right around 80hz and down panel speakers (all speakers) start to challenge the rooms walls density. One little move and the speakers will shift upward. You might get your staging just about right and then play another recording and there’s that range shift. People blame it on the recording or start looking for other components or start filling their rooms with traps, instead of realizing the walls in the room are having a conflict with the mechanics of the speakers. Somewhere in that room there is a pressure build up or the opposite keeping the bottom notes from fully forming. Major problem right? Nope, it’s actually an easy fix. You can get a professional Pressure Box made from me, but to take care of the basic problem you can make your own ported pressure box and move it around the room till it activates and restores the pressure in the room to balance.
At the end of the day, don’t get stuck on numbers. Learn how the control pressure. And always remember, your not hearing the speakers, but pressure. Once you start treating your room like a speaker things get a lot easier.
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