Shear only travels in solids. Tom
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
Showing 50 responses by theaudiotweak
Speakers cones generate shear and polarities of shear before they generate a pressure wave. Thats how speakers work. Polarities of shear on a cone for example travel on all surfaces of the material shape..they also travel thru that material shape. The speed and direction are much determined by that material and shape. Shear can return to the point of emination or the wave launch..this is what we call interfering energy. There are ways to eliminate this interference in vibrational objects that re corrupts the original intended signal. Some methods are easy to see and hear others must be dealt with in new and unique ways or just a new look and understanding of what had always been there. And it has always been there..The best method is the use of a select material contoured with no 90 degree angles and contains a shape angle where shear can be rejected and not allowed to re enter. Some here wish to cancel or eliminate all polarities of shear. If you do so you will reduce all amplitudes of the resulting sound wave.Selective identification of shear polarity and its return into the signal path is what is crucial. Kill all shear..no sound. Resonators work because they capture a pressure wave and change that motion into shear. The size, shape and material's shear velocity determine the sound and perceived quality of the acoustic waves output off of that solid object.Thats why brass, gold and silver objects of the same exact shape generate a different sound out come. Also thats why most everytime you see resonators they are attached to a solid surface or very near the surface. There is an action reaction between a flat material surface :drywall: and a resonator where the pressure wave that impacts the wall and becomes partially shear and travels thru that solid :drywall: That now altered pressure wave encounters a resonator of some size shape and material alters how the molecules of that original pressure wave actually reacts and sounds to our ears brain and body. This continual rotation between compressive and the shear world is what makes sound..and what makes things sound different. Our ears are also shear generators because of material structure and shape we each interpet the compressive wave in a similar but unique way. Oh and then there is the skull and bone structure and mass. Later on..Tom |
amg 56..here is how and why it works..and with further additions pertaining to strapping caps.. theaudiotweak1,676 posts05-16-2018 9:48amSpeakers cones generate shear and polarities of shear before they generate a pressure wave. Thats how speakers work. Polarities of shear on a cone for example travel on all surfaces of the material shape..they also travel thru that material shape. The speed and direction are much determined by that material and shape. Shear can return to the point of emination or the wave launch..this is what we call interfering energy. There are ways to eliminate this interference in vibrational objects that re corrupts the original intended signal. Some methods are easy to see and hear others must be dealt with in new and unique ways or just a new look and understanding of what had always been there. And it has always been there..The best method is the use of a select material contoured with no 90 degree angles and contains a shape angle where shear can be rejected and not allowed to re enter. Some here wish to cancel or eliminate all polarities of shear. If you do so you will reduce all amplitudes of the resulting sound wave. Selective identification of shear polarity and its return into the signal path is what is crucial. Kill all shear..no sound. Resonators work because they capture a pressure wave and change that motion into shear. The size, shape and material's shear velocity determine the sound and perceived quality of the acoustic waves output off of that solid object.Thats why brass, gold and silver objects of the same exact shape generate a different sound out come. Also that's why most everytime you see resonators they are attached to a solid surface or very near the surface. There is an action reaction between a flat material surface :drywall: and a resonator where the pressure wave that impacts the wall and becomes partially shear and travels thru that solid :drywall: That now altered pressure wave encounters a resonator of some size shape and material alters how the molecules of that original pressure wave actually reacts and sounds to our ears brain and body. This continual rotation between compressive and the shear world is what makes sound..and what makes things sound different. Our ears are also shear generators because of material structure and shape we each interpet the compressive wave in a similar but unique way. Oh and then there is the skull and bone structure and mass. Later on..Tom and then my response to the tie down of caps..for that matter anything. You can interchange the word drywall above for the words horrid,glue and sawdust below. The following applies to all material surfaces especially 2 or more dissimilar materials of varied shapes. Adjusting the surface tension changes the surface shear speed of the materials ..becoming either separate,combined or somewhere in between. The result is more or less interfering energy being transferred back and forth between these surfaces in intimate contact or from the compressive world onto a solid then becoming shear. So in many examples of using gucci caps tied down to horrid materials made of sawdust and glue you will have the sound of that cap altered for sure by the larger mass of the material it is forced upon. The size and mass of the same substrate will also give you a different result.The tie down material will also become part of the sound of the cap. As we know vibration is all around and cannot be isolated. We can make vibration a useful tool and most pleasant. Just need to know the why and how..Tom .. Star Sound Technologies and Tone Acoustics |
Back in the day early 1980's a friend of mine had a statement speaker that used Ed Longs patented TA time aligned technology. A short time later the predecessor to the Bag End subs that operated below their resonance were devised.. The 2 10's spec'd by Ed Long and built by Eminence were integrated into this small baffle speaker system. I used a Mcintosh mq101 a Dahlquist LP1 and an Apt Holman amp to control and power the 2 pr of 10's...I owned this speaker system and it was installed in my first home. Huge soundstage and to this day probably the best bass I ever heard in a home. All the drivers were designed to spec by Ed Long except for the tweeter. The 4 cone drivers were shallow in shape as Ed said at that time these drivers would maintain their TA over a wider frequency range versus the deep dish variety. We also used a calibration and measurement system sold to us by Ed and probably Ron to measure the other speaker systems my friend built. The TA/ nearly Bag End system was not a pretty site..and was not a viable product for sale..Sure sounded great and learned so much from these engineers as much of this was cutting edge back then. Tom |
Walk but no talk. Just asking was this you too? What happened in Nasville? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/8nerve/8nerve.html |
The clubs are not made of select tonewood but rather cheap wood both will go out of tune under tension or stress..What about water content in the air and temperture in the space ? Not like your holding a string instrument in hand that can be easily retuned. Instead you have blocks of wood under electronics and speakers, no 2 have the same cellular symmetry..or mass. So with different structures which vary in content by the hour and the day you will go mad wishing for what you had previous. When was that wonderful adjustment made to each block..you forgot didn’t you.Wait until fall you may recover what once was as the leaves change in color and moisture content. Tom |
So called audio isolaters should be called restrictors or retainers. Ligo may succeed in restricting all forms of motion and hence no sound. In audio you need motion for reproduction to be heard. Audio isolaters cannot discern the difference between a wave direction needed and one that should be reduced or grounded. Tom |
Geoff Your springs present no exit path for resonance to vacate the parts or the chassis..Ours do and furthermore they reject energy from below that attempts to re enter either by hard contact or by reflection onto the Audiopoint..Our brass coupling discs maintain impedance and transfer speed, the disc shape diffuses interference the tip geometry rejects the left overs. MG has no clue how these devices work. Butt now after 30 years and reading this post he might..well maybe not..Blocks of wood sound better when they are used in inconjuction with and grounded with our points and discs as are cello and bass. Tom |
Glupson, Always in search of materials and shapes to speed the removal of unwanted resonance from a component, speaker or musical instrument. Also working with material shapes and concepts that act to limit energy from returning up and back into the exit point and shape. The understanding and limiting of how returning energy can corrupt the signal path is fascinating. I would expect this to always be a work in progress. Mitch 2, I dont make springs or use them. By nature they restrict resonant energy from leaving a component or speaker and may even increase interference under a device in motion..such as a turntable and speaker. Tom |
The variable is the weather and how it changes by the hour and the day. Wood is affected by the weather, and like the weather wood of any type changes in composition and content. Springs are not linear in their reaction to compressive waves nor shear waves that only travel in solids. They provide no clear direct path for shear energy to exit. Othèr than those 2 things I suppose their okay. Tom |
All examples of resonance transfer of shear waves from one surface in contact with another material and shape. The resonance outcome of both materials and shapes are unpredictable I think. How their motion results in a different compressive sound is also unpredictable. Experience with materials and shapes maybe the best tool under the ear. Probably why the Mpingo discs work in some places for some and others not as much. Also a experienced listener and tweaker may find a better result in a shorter amount of time than the less experienced.Tom |
Geoff, I know how they work. Your brain only works in the compressive world same as you think the Shakti Hollographs only do. When a compressive wave passes across the solid surface of the varied forms of wood of the Hollographs that wave turns into a shear wave ( only in a solid) . That shear wave motion causes the solid to move slightly.. the air around that shape to vibrate and the fact that there are 2 different species of wood of over basically 6 different sections and lengths you now have a change in the compressive wave 6 different times per single unit. Now that 6 times does not take into account the boundary areas where the twisted pattern in the wood is held at each end..nor does it take into account where it appears there 2 different species of wood joined together at their intersections..All those areas now included have a different shear velocity as do the 2 different species of wood as do the different sectioned lengths that cause a change in air motion and that is what you hear when those waves come in contact with other solids like the wall surface and your eardrums..they too resonate and cause a change in air motion... So how many times are those shear waves in all those materials and shapes make for change in your compressive world? Tom |
Glupson, Shear waves only transmit in solids not air or water..Air and water have very loose connections, solids have very tight connections. I suppose molten metals or molten lava would behave somewhere in between a state of liquid or solid and that would change as the material cooled into a solid state. Tom |
Another summer rerun on a hot Monday night . Quoting From the Lost Wages Harold News... ""Like with some others on this thread we haven't seen StarSound take components down to the basic signal passing bones. Robert saying he likes big transformers obviously tells us on this thread you have not tested the placement of transformers in relationship to other parts hosting the audio signal. If this is indeed the case there are literally thousands of empirical listeners who have gone further than you. The proof is something you do gentlemen, not something you talk about as if you have done. Walking guys, we're talking about walking."" Really jf47t or Harold or whoever you are? I would hope that many thousands have gone further than us as that guarantees HEA evolution where previously, located on another thread MG prefers to say HEA is dead. In our meager defense to this statement containing a ton of bull manure, Star Sound has experimented and sold to the public under the Harmonic Precision™ brand name forty chassis of a mono block amplifier. The circuit was designed by Steve Keiser (B&K fame) where every part was mechanically grounded to the chassis via Live-Vibe Technology™. Likewise the Caravelle Loudspeaker project was sold for public consumption as well with all parts mounted via Live-Vibe protocols (Google it). These were two case studies involving the longevity of parts as the developing technology and goal was to establish higher levels of product operational efficiency noting the reduction of heat as one of the positive takeaways. We are a research and development company - not an amplifier or speaker manufacturer. How many of those infinite chassis styled amps as seen in all those images did you guys sell? The primary difference between your company jf47t or Howard or whoever you are is Star Sound prefers to rely on geometry, physics and material science and engineering to advance Live-Vibe Technology. The products are based on technology and not just experiments and more experiments and even more empirical experiments. You guys cannot define how your product functions in technical terminology. Too bad for you as empirical can only go so far. Example: This product took us twenty years to bring to market where sales are expanding rapidly across the globe. This product is affixed to a musical instrument expands the sonic, increases stage presence and volume without affecting the character or signature of the instrument. Those accomplishments probably mean nothing to you guys but that’s OK. I would not expect you to comprehend our accomplishments as you primarily reside in the empirical world of experimentation.™ Please refer to the end pin and coupling disc located on the cello as our product description. These products are protected under US Patents. http://toneacoustics.com/Video.php Are we walking yet? Again, jf47t, you do NOT define “basic signal” in your rants so we have no concept about passing bones, passing gas or any other jargon you continue to post in attempting to sully our company and reputation. There is one difference HERE that I am sure the readership has witnessed by now and that is…. There were no complaints filed forcing the removal of your derogatory posts unlike those of thinner skinned individuals like you who continuously report posts when presented challenges by having them removed from the conversation. ""Robert and Tom saying your company has an absolute is the same as marginalizing your contributions to a variable subject. Or do you not think audio "is" a variable science?"" Show me where I ever stated “ABSOLUTE” - hint ↑↑↑↑. You are again falsifying, assuming or unjustifiably attempting to sully our company without effect. I cannot waste anymore time defending our company from slingers of mass such as yourself. Audio reproduction is a science and art form. Hire a real engineer and not one of those fictitious versions blessed with a silver tongue as a real engineer will help explain your products function and stop relying on the bearded wonder and photoshopped images pawning you into positions where you become the target of obvious stupidity. Just our opinions of course and means nothing really… just talking. Robert--Tom |
Geoff We the dudes here at Star Sound have a woman on staff who has added to our science of materials and shapes as they relate to actual resonance transfer. She received a Bachelor of Science (BS) in Math and Geology from Portland State University and a Masters of Engineering (ME) in Geophysics from Colorado School of Mines. She is a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) in Colorado and a Registered Geologist (PG) in Wyoming. For over 30 years she interpreted seismic data (mostly compressional waves - acoustic waves if they are in air) as it pertains to exploring for hydrocarbons. She has authored and presented 14 papers on different aspects of interpretation and understanding compressional waves to the Society of Exploration Geophysicists (SEG) International meetings, European Association of Exploration Geophysicists (EAEG) meetings, Australian Association of Exploration Geophysicists (ASEG) meetings, SEG Summer Research Workshop and to SEG chapter meetings. Many of these papers were invited and some were awarded best paper. In addition, she taught a three-day course on seismic interpretation requested by the SEG. She has also worked as a Geotechnical Engineer in the housing industry. She also has a patent on a device that removes interference from string instruments making them more responsive and easier to play. Tom |
Mikey is out of his hollow tree trunk dialing for dollars all over again. Must be tough competing for attention amongst other valid products of substance that actually make a difference and can be returned if they don't satisfy. Perhaps he does not know. Everything in free space or attached to another material surface makes for a physical change in all objects within or proximity to that space. Nothing new here...What may be new here is to experiment and figure out the cause.Once you know the cause then you can build for a better result. Most of the changes we hear are because of a select material's mass, geometry and shear wave velocity and how that material reacts in a particular atmosphere..and with other materials contained in that space. That is the beginning and the end result of what we hear. Tom |
Mike explain the physics of how sound is made and even make an attempt to explain why all materials sound different. Oh and why someone will need to retune each and every material that has a variable absorption rate or is not in stasis..some as often as once a day? I know that while your out to lunch when you come back it will again be out of tune. Tom |
I expect you didnt write your own response as it has a style unlike anything else you may have written here. The other truth is the Michael Green Audio Point was designed by AMD and manufactured in Nebraska and not by you..so your on the coat tales..The fact that your device is hollowed makes for a less effective waveguide because its wall thickness will not support all frequencies. As I have now said many times you don't even know how your own products work even those you claim to be of your origin..not..Your agenda here is just a store front..Dialing for dollars..you do as you always have ..when you need some jack you show up with all your smoke. The only thing you mentioned that won't go out of tune in a matter of hours is the Audio Point..which is not of your making or understanding. Tom |
So this guy shows up here in March of 2018 and begins his dialing for dollars and self promotion tour..No other threads or answers given except for own self promotion. Has he ever been a benefit to Audiogon in terms of adding money to their pockets ? It appears he has ridden this gravy train for free for these many months. Another thing...how does he hold our negative posts hostage and has them deleted when he adds nothing to the pockets of Audiogon...How could and how does that happen. Zero benefit to Audiogon the company and zero benefit to any of its members. Its all about himself. Tom |
And here at Star Sound we have a published list with prices for over 60 products.. not zero, none or just 2..We have reviews and show awards on several of our designs. We offer products that serve to enhance the sound and physical performance of select string instruments. These devices are highly considered and reviewed from players around the world. Here at Star Sound and Tone Acoustics we test and share our science and art to benefit both the high fi system in your home as well as the live performance on stage. This becomes our mutual proving ground. It is our goal to merge the sound of the live performance venue and bring that reality into your home and studio. The previous may sound like an ad..well we have paid for banner ads as well as posted for sale items in several different catogories going back more than a decade..Some im post ers have paid zilch over that same decade. Are they just freeloaders and users not givers? They may talk but not give. Tom |
A reduction in grain structure along with an increase in grain directionality will reduce shear wave interfererence entering the amplified signal path. Some materials have a lower prefered shear velocity than others. Fuses are a part of the path so the purity of the conductor as well as the solder and its melting point and residual leftovers increase resistance and therefore audible change in direction from end to end.Tom |
And while we are not speaking of wood I will bring up the term grain oriented or grain matched. All woods will have their own shear velocity a couple of factors being the mass another being their grain structure. The non alignment of grain against the grain and higher mass of another wood will result in more interference as well as acting as an acoustic brake on any signal transfer. Example may be butcher block or the absolute worse wood/would be sawdust infused with gluuee. Tom |