Hi Gwalt,
Your experience with the SR Red fuses makes sense to me in that these outcomes are all individual in nature with the numerous variables.
As you note, fuses are no different than comparing cables or any audio products, results will vary. In your system another fuse may be an ideal fit.
The Red fuses have been stellar in my system and a wonderful discovery, so I'm very curious to hear the Black version in my system. The Reds contribute to a full bodied tonality and very fleshed out harmonic overtones and are beautifully 3 dimensional. So for a multitude of factors results will be diverse among listeners. Good luck with your searce.
Charles, |
Search I meant, not searce. |
Jafreeman
Interesting thoughts.
I suspect the new phase of A/B-ing Red-Black-Red-Black we’re entering will be more problematic than the revelatory first hearing of the Red. I think the vagaries of A/B occur because we tend to overlay what we’re hearing with what we previously heard, so instead of being an insightful measuring device, the brain is singing along, blending memory of sound with what’s being currently experienced. It’s also true that our minds make us conscious of something newly perceived, but can ignore something that fades because memory can fill in what fades. If we’ve been hearing “The girl with colitis goes by”, but the Red reveals the lyric is actually “The girl with kaleidoscope eyes”, then we’re going to hear “kaleidoscope” regardless of whether we go back to old fuse, or forward to the Black. So what we hear is often cumulative, and what is lost is often ameliorated with memory. I think this is why A/B tends towards “can’t tell the difference” when switching back and forth.
In my case, my initial perception was that the Reds were presenting more information through a clearer window, which turned singers into imperfect humans—sometimes struggling, instruments with more of the discordant overtones, and percussion with more “hitting something hard with intent.” I can understand why some systems would portray the effect as “lean” or “cold,” but I think most systems are warmer and more resonant than reality. I really couldn’t go back to the less revealing sound, but I was aware that in choosing the Red, I was choosing a more naked portrayal where I perceived things as sounding authentic, but sometimes less “easy listening.” I found that there was a different pleasure from the realness of the Red portrayal versus the pleasure of pleasant sound such as tube glow or accentuated punch. Naked can be off-putting, but also euphoric :-)
I’ve heard tubes change, but in general, I’m not confident I have the ear to discern burn in, or can attribute changing perception to a physical object, so the initial perception of the Black being “hard” is a cautionary tale for me.
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The Synergistic BLACK fuses were installed in the Antelope DAC (uses two) and in the SET Type 45 tube amp. Speakers are Terasonic high efficiency. Since the DAC has a digital volume control, I will leave the system on but no sound from the speakers until critical listening this Saturday. That way I do not listen to any break in changes and temporary impressions that may cloud my listening.
I may find I like an all BLACK system, a combination of RED and BLACK or an all RED !
I plan to have FUN and enjoy listening to the sonic changes.
David Pritchard |
David ...
You gave me an idea for tomorrow. I'm going to swap the RED fuse in the phono amp for one of the BLACK fuses in the CD player in the morning. There's still something that's not right with the two BLACK fuses in the CD player. In the meantime, the CD player remains on "repeat" overnight again.
The black fuses show promise, but so far compared with the red fuses, the presentation is boring. What they are doing reminds me of a system I heard years ago. It consisted of stacked Quads and really good tube electronics. The owner was totally into transparency first. Yes, his system was one of the most transparent systems I've yet heard to date. Upon initial listening I was blown away. But ... 30 minutes into the listening session I was thinking of how I could gracefully exit his home.
I heard another system one time that retailed for over 200k. The owner kept emphasizing how well he "got the rear corners of the stage." I kept thinking ... yes, but where's the emotional connection to the music? 80 grand for a pair of speakers and another 150 grand for solid state electronics ... to get the rear corners of the sound stage? Not me .. I want to hear Sarah Vaughn's chest and throat. I want to hear the natural tone of a soprano sax. I want to hear the beautiful resonances of a bow being drawn across a cello. I want to be made to hold my breath while the music just flows over me in waves of beauty.
The black fuses so far are leaning toward audiophile-ism. they ARE improving, but man, this is one hell of a break in period. I'm going to continue working with them just to see if they finally come around to the musicality of the red fuses. It would be wonderful to have the transparency of the black fuses with the musicality of the reds. We'll see.
Charles' last post hit the nail right on the proverbial head.
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Oregon, I think you should turn both blacks around before you mix in a red. It is best to evaluate a directional change as a single variable before you confound your trials with reds that may also be directional. You are providing the first account of the blacks--they may be more directional than the reds, which to me, sounded so good, I did not want to turn them around, and I have three applications in which to try turning. They just sound so right where they are, I have not turned them. It seems we don't know enough about the blacks in this respect.
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I agree, flip the black fuses. |
David,
Might be a good idea to have a short listen are get the fuses correctly oriented before breaking and leaving them to further burn in for the weekend. |
How many combinations of directions for two fuses?
First fuse in WRONG direction, the other in WRONG direction.
First fuse in RIGHT direction, the other in WRONG direction.
The first fuse in WRONG direction, the other in RIGHT direction.
Finally the first fuse in RIGHT direction, the second fuse in RIGHT direction.
POP QUIZ: How many combinations for three fuses?
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I agree with changing the direction of the Black fuses prior to mixing them with the Red fuse. Oregonpapa I value your listening impressions, we share the same musical priorities. Audio products that diminish rather than enrich the emotional connection with music aren't for me. It will be very interesting to see how the Black fuses evolve.
Charles, |
Geoff, I have 4, 10A fast-blow fuses in my big amp. I have a better chance of winning powerball than getting all the directions correct at the same time, and there is no f'in way I am going to sit around and try listening to every permutation. The amp manufacturer used Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in the amp, and showed me which way to orient them based on their arrows and the direction of electricity flow. If the SR fuses had an orientation indicator (i.e., arrow) then I would know how to orient them.
If SR is going to charge $100 bucks for a fuse, it seems they would take the time to test which direction their fuses sound best and then label them. I am not saying they should test every fuse but, IF this direction thing is true, there must be a reason they sound better in a certain orientation and it must have to do with manufacturing since the parts at each end are the same. So, what is left, wire direction, which end gets soldered first, which direction they run their
2,000,000 volts of
Quantum Tunneling
electricity, what else? If SR can figure out which of those things affects directivity, then they would know which direction to paint an arrow on the fuse since they are all presumably manufactured in a sequenced manner. Some might say the absence of an arrow on their fuses indicates they think the orientation issue is BS. OTOH, watching audiophiles fumble with the direction of fuses probably gives them a laugh or two. |
It's simple enough for me to reverse the fuse direction and just listen. Either you hear a meaningful difference or you do not. I do hear a distinct change(but not drastic ) in the sound. If you don't then just leave things as they are.
Charles, |
Yes, Mitch is right! Why can't SR print the best direction on the fuse? Are they unable to keep them in line during manufacturing? Let's hear from all the users who have an opinion about the correct direction, and tell us what it is.
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Charles: I agree with your post and is essentially my point. it becomes system matching with just one component out of place. I am going to put more time on the REDS down the road to see if there is any improvement. I have heard the difference in reversal and it was clear that in the VAC the wording should be backwards left to right. My preamp. is on 24/7 during the winter months. As for now I installed the beeswax fuse last evening and will report what i got down the road with more time.
Thanks, |
Question? If AC changes direction 120
times per
second or 60 cycles per second [60hz]... how then can a change in fuse
orientation make a difference in sound quality if there is a constant cycle change in the flow of
current? Am I missing something here?
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Galt
Does your VAC have fuse holders that push in on the back? If so, what does "backwards left to right" mean since it seems like it would depend how you held it? I'm kind of dense.
Thanks |
koestner201 posts01-26-2016 9:18amYes, Mitch is right! Why can't SR print the best direction on the fuse? Are they unable to keep them in line during manufacturing? Let's hear from all the users who have an opinion about the correct direction, and tell us what it is.
I think it's on SR site ... direction is how you read the label on the fuse. |
Mitch wrote,
"Geoff, I have 4, 10A fast-blow fuses in my big amp. I have a better chance of winning powerball than getting all the directions correct at the same time, and there is no f’in way I am going to sit around and try listening to every permutation."
I have some good news for you. The odds are pretty good are 2 of them are already in the right direction. You just have to figure out which ones they are. ;-). In fact statistically the odds aren’t terrible that all 4 are already in the right direction. A lot better than winning Powerball.
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"Question? If AC changes direction 120 times per second or 60 cycles per second [60hz]... how then can a change in fuse orientation make a difference in sound quality if there is a constant cycle change in the flow of current? Am I missing something here?"
The current doesn't carry the signal. Even if it did we only care about the direction toward the speakers. We don't care about the other direction.
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Okay ... Thanks for the suggestions, guys. l'll try flipping the fuses tonight. In the meantime, they continue to burn in with the CD player set on "repeat."
While I'm at it, I want all to know that I'm not trying to disparage SR in the least here. I think SR has come up with a fantastic product, evidenced by the raves from most here on the RED fuses. All I'm interested in is getting the most musical enjoyment out of my system (and investment). I really WANT these black fuses to succeed. As I've stated in several posts now, they show a lot of promise in various ways. I'm just looking for that same presentation provided by the red fuses ... in spades.
So far, I have heard exactly what Charles describes in his assessment of the red fuses when I had the reds in the CD player. Not there yet with the blacks. I'm keeping hope alive.
Stay tuned ... |
electrslacker: When I face the VAC from the back there is a fuse holder that pulls out from the IEC on the power supply. The correct orientation for the fuse to be inserted was left to right reading RS A4T. In other words backwards worded left to right. Gwalt |
I’m wondering if any of those who have experimented with fuse directionality have tried simply removing a fuse and then reinserting it in the same direction, but such that it is rotated through a significant angle (such as perhaps 180 degrees or so) about the axis corresponding to its length. Or perhaps simply removing it and then reinserting it without any apparent rotation.
The point to that experiment being to determine if the differences that are perceived may simply be due to minute differences in the physical contact between the fuse and the contacts on the holder. While that may seem to be an unlikely explanation for differences that may be perceived and attributed (or misattributed) to directionality, from a technical standpoint it strikes me as nevertheless being a less unlikely explanation than the essentially infinitesimal differences in various parameters that have been reported to have been measured between the two directions in a couple of papers that have been published, for example, by HiFi Tuning.
Of course, even that kind of experiment would not rule out the possibility that other effects might be in play, such as sonic differences that are sometimes reported to result from simply turning a component off and then on a few minutes later.
Regards,
-- Al
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I’m not sure we don’t already have an answer to the whole wire and fuse directionality issue. In fact we hd the nswersgoes about 25 or 30 years ago when cable mnufacturers first began putting arrows on their interconnects and other cables. And how do they know which way the arrows go? They know because they have done the experiments and found that one direction - as the wire comes off the final die - or as the wire comes off the big spool - sounds better than the other. It’s not really all that subtle. Anyway, once you find out the orientation of the wire as it comes off the spool that sounds best as a manufacturer you simply keep track of the manufacturing process of all future wire, even the wire for fuses. If you are not manufacturing the fuse yourself as the manufacturer but modifying a stock fuse you simply don’t put arrows on the fuse and let the customer do the listening test. For interconnects and other cables or even hook up wire it’s ridiculously simple to keep everything straight. It’s also rather easy to eliminate the contact issue from the equation. Not that the conract surface isn’t an issue. Any old fuse is directional, even stock fuses respond well to flipping them.
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Fascinating Fuse thread.
The problem I have is I can change nothing and things may still sound subtly different to me day by day, listening session by listening session for reasons unknown.
But the differences are subtle and seldom ever affect my end enjoyment. I suspect my own mood and perhaps mindset of the hour to be a factor especially when it comes to any emotional response to what I hear. "Dammit Spock, I’m a person not a listening machine." Probably a good thing.
I do not have time to dabble with fuse directions normally. If there was a problem to start with and I thought it might be that, I probably would. but I can’t even account for how things that vary regularly out of my control like weather, air pressure, humidity electricity etc. are affecting what I hear exactly at any particular time versus another.
Or how can I even assume my gear always works consistently and that there is not some natural audible variation over time? There is a lot of complex technology in these toys.
So I just throw in the towel and be happy I like it as much as I do regularly. Not the "audiophile" way of thinking I’m sure.
I guess if you flip or change fuses enough with enough a/b tests the results become obvious.
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On the Subject of Fuse Direction.
The synergistic Research Fuses are Quantum tunneled in one direction-
from the "S" of the word Synergistic towards the "h" in the word Research. So at least this corresponds to the arrow of some other fuses. You want Current to flow from the capital "S" towards the other end of the fuse where the last letter "h" is.
So on some fuse holders ( like the tray type holder next to power cord connectors) , it is easy to figure out the "hot" side and the "neutral" side and put the fuse in in the optimum position on the first try. The other spots one has to experiment for optimum results.
I hope this helps.
David Pritchard
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Mapman...Your common sense is a breath of fresh-air...
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Hi aolmrd1241,
I think there's been an abundance of common sense provided on this thread based on actual listeners experience with their systems. The point that's been made repeatedly is , simply try and hear for yourself. The beauty of these fuses is the simplicity of their use. Pop one in, take it out and compare with another. Listen for a while in one direction, reverse direction and listen again, very easy to do. Afterwards determine if you did or didn't notice/hear a difference. Results may not be uniform amongst all listeners.
All I can report is what I hear with various fuses in my components. They go well beyond subtle but fall short of "jaw dropping to the floor". I relate to Oregonpapa's written comments because my listening impressions are nearly identical to his. This is as easy as rolling various tubes, yet the potential change (of fuses) is greater in some cases. Compared to cables and many audio products the premium fuses are inexpensive yet yield very noticeable improvements. This has been my experience and I'm very happy to have them. No doubt YMMV. Charles, |
Hi Charles,thanks for your reply. Don't get me wrong,I do appreciate this thread. I am just trying to soak it all in. How a single fuse can make so much of an impact on ones sound system is beyond my comprehension. But,I am here to learn...I want to thank everyone for their time. Please...carry on.
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I prefer the Red over Black in my DAC for the same reasons oregonpapa mentioned. The Red is just more involving and fun to listen to. |
macdude, I believe the Red vs Black fuse preference is going to be system/component(and listener) dependent. Not earth shaking news
I realize. Sometimes when an audio component/part is designed for "ultra" detail and resolution, musicality and emotional connection can be sacrificed. It doesn't always go this way but there's a fine line of trade offs most often. I notice this particularly with speakers. I'll see which direction things go when I get my Black fuses. If I prefer the Reds,the Black fuses will be returned. I look forward to hearing the comparison. I can honestly say that in my case the Reds improved transparency/clarity but also increased the emotion expression/ musicality/organic aspect as well. That's usually easier said than done. Charles, |
Charles, mmm, you are going to compare the red's vs black's? , if so, I look forward to your impressions, and appreciate your efforts. |
Charles1dad:
Still experimenting with two of the three systems. The BLACK fuses are definitely directional in sound in my systems. At least at the power cord application be sure and try both directions. Put one fuse in at a time and allow it to settle in for 24hrs of play before the next fuse.
I just listened to the Teresonic speaker, Type 45 tube Amp, Antelope DAC system affter the system has been on 24 hours.
Turning the DAC volume up from zero sound to 85% , the music filled the room as never before. There is now a better sense of fullness, detail in instrument location and vocals, and most importaintly emotion.
This is comparing the Black versus RED fuse. A much bigger difference in sound improvement than when I went from the Jadis amp to the Emotion Type 45 tube amp! A bigger change than any tube rolling change I have done.
So in this first system evaluated BLACK fuse > RED> stock fuse.
I do not ever want to go back to a stock fuse.
To all the non Synergistic Research fuse users reading, I urge you to give yourself the present of a BLACK or RED fuse. Try one and send it back if not happy.
David Pritchard |
David,
That's quite an endorsement of the Black fuses impact relative to the Jadis amps versus your 45 SET. I should have mine in about a week. Given your system makeup I know the resolution is very acute . This will permit you to easily hear and distinguish sonic changes.
Charles, |
Hello again, Guys ... Good news! After leaving the CD player on repeat 24/7 for several days the two black fuses in the player have finally broken in. Here's what I'm experiencing: The "pinched" and non-musical artifacts of the unbroken in black fuses are completely gone. What is left is a totally new experience in transparency, focus, air, tonality and realism. The RED fuses, as good as they are, are now relegated to the toy box. How does one describe the sound of "nothing?" In a word ... the red fuses are veiled in comparison to the blacks. Hearing these broken-in black fuses over the red fuses is like hearing a fully broken-in red fuse over a stock fuse. Its that significant. No bull. I could have never imagined that such realism could be attained in one's living room from red book CD's. Both Charles and I have written about the "layering" effect of the red fuses that is so attractive. Well, forget about "layering." I'm now convinced that that "layering" effect is some sort of distortion, even though its quite remarkable in its own right and fun to listen to. With the black fuses, the effect isn't so much the perception of "layering," but more like each instrument/musician has an actual place in the room. I've heard transparency from the black fuses from the get-go, but when things snapped to and really became focused during last night's listening session that transparency was drastically improved ... along with even more musicality and emotional impact than was experienced with the red fuses. Charles ... you are going to love these black fuses. Just wait until you hear Monk! Call me a nut case (and I'm sure wolf-garcia will *lol*) but during last night's session I was so taken by the music that I actually got up and started dancing between the speakers. It was just me and the band in the room. Good grief! I couldn't stop smiling. Head bobbing and toe tapping. The music was back! I know many of you have the Clapton Unplugged CD. Well, Eric Clapton was in my living room last night. I've always enjoyed that CD ... but this was live, I tells ya ... LIVE! Here's the bottom line. Get the SR Black fuses if you want to really hear what your system can do. Keep in mind though ... you have a significant break-in period ahead of you. During the break in period, you most likely will not enjoy your system, preferring to watch the news instead. If you have the patients though, you 'll be in a position to enjoy your system as never before. In other words, don't expect anything until at least the 70 hour mark. Thanks go out to the folks at Synergetic Research for a stellar product and to highend-electronics for their stellar service. Betty and Alfred ... you folks are the best! Robert, my fellow local audiophile, also known in these parts as "Mister Golden Ears," will be coming over tonight for a listening session. He's going to be blown away. Stay tuned ... I'll give another report tomorrow. Happy listening guys ...
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Oregonpapa, glad you have obtained such outstanding results with the black fuses. A question I would ask, though, in all sincerity, is how do you know that these findings were not primarily caused by effects on the player itself that might have resulted from being operated in repeat mode 24/7 for several days?
Best regards,
-- Al
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Al,
Well I suggest that Oregonpapa could put the Red or stock fuses into his CD player, listen and observe if there are changes, and if so what are they. I replaced the SR Red fuses temporarily with my previous 20 fuses to compare. Unequivocally the sound quality and sheer musically is noticeably diminished with the SR Red fuses removed, very stark contrast. As I suspected, the Black fuses needed sufficient burn in time.
Charles, |
Darn,
I meant to say my previous SR 20 Quantum fuses. |
Oregonpapa,
Based on your description of the Black fuses impact, if I have the same results I'll never be able to leave my listening room. 😀😀
Charles, |
almarg ...
I turned the CD player off before going to bed last night. Turned back on this morning at 9am. Still amazing in every way.
Charles ...
I hope the blacks turn out well for you. They are amazing.
By the way Charles ... how would I contact you via your Email or PM? I have something for you. |
Oregonpapa,
charles1dad@aol.com |
^^^ Thanks Charles ... watch for my Email. |
Thx, Gwalt. I had them in right.
My previous concern over the Red's deep bass has disappeared. They sound great. In fact, I begin channeling Gollum, wanting to hold onto my precious Reds. Do I really want to send them back for the Blacks? I have ten days to decide. If there's not consensus that the Blacks are obviously better, I'm leaning towards holding at Red and getting two more for the DAC, but even that seems greedy based on how good things sound now. |
Oregonpapa:
I am glad your fuse settled in and the music is really flowing. I think your description is quite good between the BLACK and RED fuse. In some rooms + systems the "added" noise of the RED maybe psychoacoustically more pleasing than the more accurate BLACK fuse. No different then a live music performance with a dead crowd, a noisy crowd, and an energized crowd.
almarg:
In my system that has had the pronounced improvement, the fuses are in an Antelope DAC that is never turned off and has a music source running 24/7. I certainly hope you will try the RED or BLACK fuses. I have found the changing of fuses to be a facinating and worthwhile project.
IT is certainly cheaper than comparing Psvane to Elrog tubes !
David Pritchard
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Bravo! , the findings of the sr-black's are resulting in what I needed to confirm, very informative thread, enjoyable as well. |
It seems we should arrive at some conclusions based on our experiences with fuses: Stock fuses provide overload protection but degrade the signal path. They are necessary to meet safety standards and prevent costly damage, but they are detrimental to sound quality. This degradation has been discovered and can be improved by inserting a better conductor. Maggie owners who modify have gone even further, saying, "No fuse is the best fuse." They remove the fuse bank that protects their midrange and tweeters and wire directly. Maggies provide perhaps the best opportunity to show how these boutique fuses are far superior to stock fuses. The differences are unmistakable and leave no room for alternative explanations. With due respect to you, Al, those of us who are more "plug and play" audiophiles have sought out the easy tweaks of fuses, cords, cables, etc, and have been rewarded. In a funny way, knowledge has not been an obstruction for us. The drawback to these fuses is how well do they protect? It's buyer beware on that question. A lot of us are getting such good sound, we don't seem to care. I know I will not go back to stock fuses or power cords, not with the superior conduction materials on the DIY market.
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Huh? Are there really ANY cases where aftermarket fuses failed to protect the equipment? I haven’t heard of any, maybe you have an inside track. As for stock fuses degrading the sound they will, like aftermarket fuses, degrade the sound less when they are inserted in the correct direction. There are in fact a number of things one can do with stock fuses to improve their performance including addressing RFI/EMI, vibration and magnetic fields as well as employing a better fuse holder and employing contact enhancer on the fuse caps.
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I can understand the reluctant position that some people have towards fuse upgrading There hasn't been a clear and acceptable technical explanation provided. This will conflict with the logic and use of reason for technically oriented people, I get that. In audio I've come to recognize that there are outcomes and results confirmed via direct listening that lack satisfying explanation.
This disconnect doesn't bother me as it would some other listeners. I just accept that you can not always explain the why or the how of certain phenomenon. I don't even attempt to explain why the Red fuses have the effects that they clearly do. I just don't know to be blunt, all I can do is tell others what I hear,that's as far as I can go. Something is happening on a technical level for these fuses to contribute in the way they do.
I trust what I hear and acknowledge I can't tell someone why they work so well. I'm simply very happy these products exist and I'm able to buy and enjoy them. To be able to tweak and improve your current system without spending multiples more money in changing components is a legitimate cause for celebration and appreciation.
Charles, |
@charles1dad;
I totally agree with your comment above.
Similar to the way interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and AC outlets etc, can make ones system sound different in a positive way or negative way. I also can’t explain why, but I know what I hear. |
I don’t know how it works but works it does! What almost every reviewer says about whatever tweak or device he’s reviewing. I find it a little bit hard to believe that none of the aftermarket fuse manufacturers provide any explanation for how their product works. We already know for example that wire directionality is part of it. Anyone wish to take a stab at other things aftermarket fuses do better than stock fuses? Thimk, thimk!
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Oregonpapa, how many hours would you guess you put on the fuses before you felt they were broken in? |
