I installed a SR RED Quantum fuse in my ARC REF-3 preamp a few days ago, replacing an older high end fuse. Uhh ... for a hundred bucks, this little baby is well worth the cost. There was an immediate improvement upon installation, but now that its broken in (yes, no kidding), its quite remarkable. A tightening of the focus, a more solid image, and most important of all for my tastes, a deeper appreciation for the organic sound of the instruments. Damn! ... cellos sound great! Much improved attack on pianos. More humanistic on vocals. Bowed bass goes down forever. Next move? .... I'm doing the entire system with these fuses. One at a time though just to gauge the improvement in each piece of equipment. The REF-75se comes next. I'll report the results as the progression takes place. Stay tuned ...
Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?
If I have my equipment on stand by mode, are the PC’s considered to be breaking in or do I need to physically turn on my equipment and let music flow from my system?
Fazee, in most cases the current drawn through a power cord by the component it is connected to will be very small in standby mode, and will therefore contribute little or nothing to whatever breakin effects may eventually occur in the power cord, if any. Although in the case of your HAP-Z1ES that current won’t be very much even in operate mode, especially given that you are operating from 230 volt AC. Also, as with most source components (and also most preamps) its current draw will be essentially the same in operate mode whether music is being played or not.
The power amplifier section of your AVM C9, though, operates with class D bias, which means that its current draw (and consequently the current draw of your power conditioner, if the amp is plugged into it) will be considerably greater when music is playing than when the amp is operating but not playing music. (That would also be the case if the amp was a class AB design, although to a lesser degree, but would not be the case if the amp were biased in class A. An amp biased in class A will draw essentially the same amount of current through its power cord whether music is playing or not).
How all of this correlates with the duration and effectiveness of the breakin process, however, is not possible to predict with any kind of precision IMO. But you may want to consider accelerating whatever breakin effects may occur by temporarily connecting the power cords to a refrigerator and/or to other devices that draw a large amount of current much of the time, and leaving them there for a few days.
The Montgomery Bros. was recorded from the LP. Sorry for the surface noise, especially on the first cut. That record is approaching 60 years old now. I found it in a used bin at a record store back in the 1970's. My favorite cut is "Bobbles Bangles and Beads." Buddy really rips it on the vibes on that cut.
On the Spanish Cello Music disc, my favorite cuts are from #6 on.
Please let me know what you think of the Israeli Percussion Orchestra recording. The first cut is amazing. Its one of the very best recordings I've ever heard. Its a private recording and was never released to the public. So ... only a few specially selected people have been deemed worthy enough to have it. :-) If I'm not mistaken, I believe you and David are using low powered amps ... I hope it comes across with all the dynamics that are on the disc.
fazee ...
I believe you have to have current flowing through the PC's. Patients is the key ... good things come to those who wait. :-)
Woo-Hoo ... !! The mailman (oops, I mean the postal person) just dropped off enough of Herbie's tube dampeners to do the preamp. Good sounds ahead for this evening. :-)
If I have my equipment on stand by mode, are the PC's considered to be breaking in or do I need to physically turn on my equipment and let music flow from my system?
Sorry for the newb question but that's exactly what I am :(
Hello Frank, I just received your CDs today. 7 of them! I'll be doing a lot of listening beginning with the Montgomery Brothers later tonight, I must hear Buddy play the vibraphone. Frank thanks so much for taking the time to do this favor. Sincerely, Charles
Not to worry, fazee. When I ordered my four, Level 3 PC's, they sent one with a note saying that they had to build the other three. I got them in about 10 days from the time the first one was delivered.
Amazing product, by the way. The build quality is suburb as is the sound. They keep improving over a 200 hour period as they break in. They killed the PC's I was using before right off the bat, and the ones I was using before were no slouches at all.
dlcockrum: I am glad you have tried the fuses. They made a wonderful improvement in my system. The music is flowing at my house this weekend! Enjoy and expect the fuses to continue to improve during the next week.
I just got a black PC (Thanks ronrags!). It replaced the stock cord from the wall to my Tara Labs Powerscreen. It shows great promise right off the bat. The improvements are very similar to what I heard with the black fuses. Now I just have to endure the break in process.
My CEC TL-5 CD Transport, AN Kit 1 DAC and ASL Tulip amp are plugged into the Powerscreen with old MIT PCs (my ASL TX-1 preamp is an autoformer passive). Assuming the black PC settles in and continues to sound at least as good as it does now, I plan to upgrade the MITs next.
For my ARC/magnepan system, the uef black power cables sound incredible. my CD player and pre have the 12 gauge, and the poweramp has the 10 gauge. Im sure as you go up the line into the atmosphere line, improvements are there, but those power cords are out of my budget. I am verry happy with them. I too got them because I was so impressed with the black fuses. I know I could go back to not having them.
^^^ Haven't tried the other levels. With the 30 day return policy, perhaps you could try them out and go from there. You'd only be out the return shipping.
The SR Atmosphere level 3 PC's were a game changer for me. Prior to the change, I was using some of Dave Magnan's experimental PC's that were mighty, mighty fine. Had them in the system for years. The Magnan PC's are now residing in a friend's system. He loves them and so did I, but they are no contest for the SR's.
I haven't compared the Atmosphere's with the UEF Blacks, but my understanding is that the UEF Blacks are a real bargain and they get you some of what the Atmosphere's achieve for a LOT less money.
Who here has the Black UEF Power Cord? Now that I've replaced all my fuses with the blacks, I think that's my next step.
The Black UEF Power Cord is a great cable for it's price. It's not as good as the more expensive SR cables but it's much better than their previous entry level power cables. I actually own the Black cable and planning to replace it with the Atmosphere power cables that oregonpapa has highly recommended. If you are interested in the Black please let me know.
I have blacks in the mono amps and DAC. I have Beeswax SHD in the pre and the analog PSU. So I don't have direct comparisons but the gap'heard in the pre and PSU are superiors to the gap heard in the amps and DAC. They all replaced hifi tuning supremes. Less demonstrative, more fluidity, more musical is the way I like. These impressions are intended inmy system, my room and my Preferences. I don't pretend that will be true for everyone. The first Beeswax was already better than the black in my opinion and the SHD is one or 2 steps beyond in SQ, but it is my own feeling. Less hifi, more Music.
"If you pile enough technical jargon in one place you can pretty much use that as copy to sell audiophiles just about anything but, Geoff, you don’t need me to tell you that.
This is not quite the most fun I have had today but it is probably about time for this thread to return to its regularly scheduled programing....it was doing so well before the negative waves crashed the party again.
Why don’t you knock it off with the negative waves, Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here, Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change, - Oddball to Moriarity...Kelly's Heros"
Finally, we agree. So, my question is, if "the testimony of one thousand audiophiles" is not fact or proof, then is it "mere group hysteria?"
Geoffkait:
"How is marking cables or fuses for direction a marketing ploy? Share, share..."
Actually, my comment was that "confusing evidence with proof" is "the essence of audio cable marketing 101." In the marketing of audio cables and accessories, "evidence" is sometimes mistaken for science and "testimony" for fact. Audiophiles like tweaky science stuff like green pens, magic dots, crystals, 6-degree of motion footers, quantum tunneling, cryogenic treatment of anything using nitrogen, or the poor man's version of cryo - i.e., putting CDs in the freezer, the concept of grainless boundaries, draining vibrations and line-noise to an "earth-ground,"
ultra-purity materials using as many 9's as possible without someone calling BS, anything harder, denser or stronger than something else, exotic materials such as palladium, graphene, resin, and any materials used in space shuttles, advanced military rockets or nuclear submarines, oh, and they like the idea of "transforming" the sound of their rigs by something so simple as orienting a cable or fuse in its "proper" direction. If you pile enough technical jargon in one place you can pretty much use that as copy to sell audiophiles just about anything but, Geoff, you don't need me to tell you that.
This is not quite the most fun I have had today but it is probably about time for this thread to return to its regularly scheduled programing....it was doing so well before the negative waves crashed the party again.
Why don't you knock it off with the negative waves, Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here, Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change, Oddball to Moriarty....Kelly's Heroes
Geoffkait: "I suspect you’re confusing evidence with proof."
to which Mitch replied,
"The essence of audio cable marketing 101....Mad Men"
How is marking cables or fuses for direction a marketing ploy? Share, share...
Geoffkait:"I also imagine you are dismissing the testimony of one thousand audiophiles as mere group hysteria."
to which Mitch replied,
"Don’t confuse testimony with fact."
testimony is not fact or proof. Never said it was. What I did say is that it’s evidence. Hel-looo! Next up, a tutorial on the difference between proof and evidence.
mitch2 1,296 posts 10-08-2016 2:06pm contradictory views and evidence against them...
Geoffkait: "Many high end interconnects and speaker cables are marked for directionality and have been for 25 years. High end fuses have been marked for directionality for more than 10 years."
To which mitch2 replied,
"This is evidence of nothing other than ink on fuse covers and cable jackets....Perry Mason"
Easy there, Perry. I suspect you’re confusing evidence with proof. I also imagine you are dismissing the testimony of one thousand audiophiles as mere group hysteria.
contradictory views and evidence against them.....
Many high end interconnects and speaker cables are marked for directionality and have been for 25 years. High end fuses have been marked for directionality for more than 10 years.
This is evidence of nothing other than ink on fuse covers and cable jackets....Perry Mason
Al, your comments are an excellent example of the Backfire Effect. The Backfire Effect is the stubborn refusal to change ones views no matter how much evidence to the contrary piles up. The Backfire Effect is, ironically perhaps, the clinging to one’s ideas and beliefs even more strongly when confronted with contradictory views and evidence against them. Let’s see, Audioquest says all wire is directional. Most high end fuses are either marked for directionality or are reported to be directional, even when the manufacturer says they aren’t. Many high end interconnects and speaker cables are marked for directionality and have been for 25 years. High end fuses have been marked for directionality for more than 10 years.
Regarding the measurements described in the HFT paper (which Nonoise was
kind enough to link to earlier in the thread) which purport to support
the notion of fuse directionality:
1)Resistance measurements
related to directionality were provided for 16 different HFT fuses,
having current ratings ranging from 1.6 amps to 20 amps, as well as for a
few competitive fuses and standard glass and ceramic fuses (the
specific make of the "standard" fuses being unspecified). The
differences in resistance for the HFT fuses in the two directions ranged
from 0.000002 ohms to 0.000120 ohms. The differences in resistance for
the competitive fuses were a bit greater in some cases, with the worst
cases generally being the standard fuses, for which there was one
isolated case having a measured difference of 0.005200 ohms.
IMO those numbers are so miniscule as to be:
(a)Laughable.
(b)Very
possibly attributable to changes in the voltage of the battery in the
measurement meter, from measurement to measurement (each measurement
imposing a slight drain on the battery), and from minute to minute. Or
if the meter was AC powered, to the very slight differences in AC line
voltage that may occur from minute to minute, as various loads are
turned on and off at nearby locations.
(c)Very possibly
attributable to differences in contact pressure and contact area between
the meter’s probe tips and the contacts on the fuse. The paper presents
separate measurements of fuse resistance as measured in a fuseholder
(for just one direction), indicating that the direction-related
measurements were performed by touching the meter leads directly to the
contacts on the fuse.
(d)Perhaps even contributed to by
differences in the resistance of the measurer’s body, that would have
been paralleled with the resistance of the fuse if he or she had fingers
on the probe tips and/or the fuse contacts while the measurements were
being taken.
(e)If Geoff’s comments about all wires being
significantly directional are to be believed, then these differences
would be totally swamped by both the resistances and the alleged
direction-related resistance differences of the vastly longer associated
wiring. In the case of mains fuses, that would include the power
transformer and the power wiring in the component, as well as the power
cord and the AC wiring in and outside of the house.
I’ll say
also that the comments I provided on the HFT paper in the "Fuses That
Matter" thread (linked to in one of my posts earlier in this thread) do
nothing to provide confidence that these measurements were performed in a
methodologically scrupulous manner, that would rule out the kinds of
extraneous variables described in (b), (c), and (d) above.
"Regarding the measurements that have been published by HiFi Tuning, I provided detailed comments earlier in this and other threads. The bottom line being that they provide no information that would be useful in predicting directionality, or that is even supportive of its existence when looked at quantitatively."
Al, actually that's not true. Not even close. Let me direct your attention to the conclusions provided on the HiFi Tuning Data sheets.
HiFi Tuning fuse data sheets - Interpretation of results (excerpt), taken from the data sheets
1. There were measurable differences in fuse direction for all fuses measured, including HiFi Tuning, Isoclean and non audiophile off the shelf fuses.
2. Measured differences were in the range of 5%.
3. Cryogenically treated fuses gave the best results.
4. For DC applications use solder type fuse or cryo’d HiFi Tuning fuse.
5. Differences were measurable and audible. Fuses sounded better in one direction than the other.
6. Measured differences in fuses don’t explain the sonic differences (which were greater than what the measured differences would suggest). (My editorial comment)
7. Fuses with smaller dimensions gave better results than larger fuses of the same value.
8. High end fuses gave better results than ordinary off the shelf fuses.
Okay, so does that mean that the "proper" direction of a fuse can be measured?
Based on the comment and findings provided by Atmasphere that I quoted on 8-3-2016 on page 49 of this thread, and consistent with the second of the two comments by Warren of ARC that I quoted in my previous post (dated yesterday), in most (but not all) cases I would expect that if a fuse is tried in a given component in both directions the direction in which the least voltage exists between the two terminals of the holder would be preferable, if a difference in voltage does in fact exist in a particular case. However, implicit in Atmasphere’s findings is a strong possibility that that direction may not turn out to be the same if the two insertions are repeated and re-compared.
Regarding the measurements that have been published by HiFi Tuning, I provided detailed comments earlier in this and other threads. The bottom line being that they provide no information that would be useful in predicting directionality, or that is even supportive of its existence when looked at quantitatively.
oregonpapa OP 1,192 posts 10-07-2016 2:11pm ^^^^ "geo ...
Thanks for the input.
I know ARC does not use after market fuses in their products. Its my understanding however, that the fuses they do use are oriented in the proper direction by Warren before the product is shipped to the customer.
Your comment:
" The electricity and the electromagnetic field (audio signal) prefer to travel down wire that is oriented in the correct direction. It measurable and audible."
Okay, so does that mean that the "proper" direction of a fuse can be measured?"
We’ve covered all that in earlier chapters. But seriously, we’ve discussed the HiFi Tuning data sheets and their published measurements of fuses on the fuse threads here this year ad infinitum. Fuses in proper direction, fuses in wrong direction; fuses with cryo, fuses without cryo; various HiFi Tuning fuses, various other brands of fuses. Fuses in DC circuits, fuses in AC circuits. Hel-looo!
I know ARC does not use after market fuses in their products. Its my understanding however, that the fuses they do use are oriented in the proper direction by Warren before the product is shipped to the customer.
Your comment:
"
The electricity and the electromagnetic field (audio signal) prefer to travel down wire that is oriented in the correct direction. It measurable and audible."
Okay, so does that mean that the "proper" direction of a fuse can be measured?
"Also, is it possible that a manufacturer such as ARC could/would determine through R&D the directionallity of the wire they use internally in the equipment? In other words, would the proper direction of all of the internal wiring inside of a preamp or an amp improve the sound of the finished product?"
Bingo! One can’t help wondering if ARC installs their fuses in the correct direction or uses aftermarket fuses. Obviously if the wire in fuses is directional ALL metal wire is directional. Therefore, all wire in transformers, in speakers and electronics, including capacitors, resistors, and internal wiring, is directional. Everyone and his brother has known this for at least 25 years. Hel-loo! I would also suggest the issue with the end fuse caps is simply a distraction from the real issue. LOL There are many issues for audiophiles related to fuses, including RFI/EMI and vibration.
BTW the correct orientation of the wire, any wire, can be determined by listening to the first bit off the spool then marking the entire spool. It’s not rocket science.
You reported,
"Warren said that its a metallurgy situation and not an electrical one."
I would phrase it a little differently. Because it’s a metallurgical situation it’s actually an electrical one. The electricity and the electromagnetic field (audio signal) prefer to travel down wire that is oriented in the correct direction. It measurable and audible.
"No matter how much you have in the end, you would have had even more if you had started out with more." - old audiophile axiom
Hey Brownsfan, never thought I would so completely ignore my dac/transport, but having my own personal jukebox with 7,000 tunes (so far) at instant disposal and great sound is addictive........random play is my favorite way to listen to all that music these days. Will keep an eye on the MW site for special promotions, thanks again for all your input.
Butler, The stock HAPZ1 is indeed very good. The stock HAPZ1 was on a par with my ModWright Sony 5400 ES player, which I found very surprising. The ModWright upgrades are a no-brainer if you want a one box plug and play music server with excellent performance. The big question is going to be, at 5K, what else is out there? For me, I really like having my entire library at my fingertips. No searching for CD XXYY that I didn't put back in its proper place. I've never had a regret about buying the HAPZ1 and doing the upgrade.
Thank you Al. I'll address your questions with Warren the next time we speak.
As you know (hee, hee), I'm not technically inclined at all. EC's just look at me an shake their heads with disdain. Pity, really. But, I was thinking about your comments above and I was wondering if the wiring leading into the fuse from outside of the house and through the wall outlet, would really have an effect on anything entering and coming out of the fuse and subsequently into the power supply. Also, is it possible that a manufacturer such as ARC could/would determine through R&D the directionallity of the wire they use internally in the equipment? In other words, would the proper direction of all of the internal wiring inside of a preamp or an amp improve the sound of the finished product?
According to Warren, when metal is extruded (drawn) to make wire it affects the direction of the grain in the metal. When the fuse is orientated in the direction of the grain, the sound will be the best. When the fuse is in the opposite direction, it will sound as though the system is out of phase.
Hi Frank,
If you have an opportunity to speak with Warren on this question again, you might ask him why any such effect is not completely swamped by the randomly oriented grain directions of the vastly longer lengths of wire that are in series with the fuse, that are conducting exactly the same current. Especially in the case of AC mains fuses, where the AC wiring in the component and in the primary winding of its power transformer, and the wiring in the component’s power cord, are all conducting that same current. Not to mention the wiring inside and outside of the house, which are also conducting that current in addition to other currents.
I also asked him about the rotational position of the fuse, and he said that it has nothing to do with the wire. He said that each fuse has a position where the contact point of the end caps is best. Find that best position and the sound will be at its best.
Agreed. See Atmasphere’s comments that I quoted on 8-3-2016, on page 49 of this thread, in which he indicated that he has found this effect to be both measurable and audible.
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