Fleschler, some additional input relating to the hypothesis I provided earlier that in some cases might explain sonic differences between supposedly identical CDs. An Audiogon member whose screen-name is Kirkus is, in addition to being one of our most technically brilliant contributors, highly experienced in analyzing and measuring the internal circuits of CD players, transports, and DACs. An excerpt of a post he provided on 7-20-2011 in this thread: Two big conceptual errors I see very commonly are the assumption that any intrinsic jitter related to retrieval of information off of a CD actually occurs through the forward signal/data path, and that any sonic artifact associated with parts upstream of the DAC must be classifiable as jitter.
In reality, CD players, transports, and DACs are a menagerie of true mixed-signal design problems, and there are a lot of different noise sources living in close proximity with susceptible circuit nodes. One oft-overlooked source is crosstalk from the disc servomechanism into other parts of the machine . . . analog circuitry, S/PDIF transmitters, PLL clock, etc., which can be dependent on the condition of the disc.
... One would be surprised at some of the nasty things that sometimes come up out of the noise floor when the focus and tracking servos suddenly have to work really hard to read the disc. Such effects figure to be dependent on the physical characteristics of the particular pressing, the condition of the disc, and the design of the particular playback hardware. And to have little if any predictability. Regards, -- Al |
Results revealed by a tester...."
I've tested these (SR Black) and found these claims to be nonsense, even while providing the weeks of break-in (!). In fact, after my little comparison to the Littelfuse (and other generally stock fuses) products I've used for years, I discovered an SR Black had been left in my amp for months, which I replaced with the original Littelfuse with zero change in tone. Try asking anybody how these little graphene enhanced seriously overpriced tiny wire devices actually work (magically coat the electrons with Special Sauce?) and prepare for scorn. The SR business model seems to be "money paid equals results experienced" even when the products are laughably unnecessary.
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Synergistic fuses are significantly inferior to BUSSMAN and LITTELFUSE products; from my investigations. They are not even reliably rated! Shocking potential... |
Hi Charles, Ivan Moravec was certainly among the great pianists, especially when it comes to his interpretations of the works of Chopin. I have about a half dozen of his recordings for solo piano that were issued on high quality cassettes several decades ago, on the Connoisseur In Sync Label. All are wonderful! I’m not sure if they were subsequently issued on CD, or if CDs that may have been issued are still available. I’m not familiar with the recordings of Ms. Nikolyeva. Regarding the Starker/Sebok Bach recording I mentioned earlier, here is a link to it in LP form ($78 in "used/very good" condition!), and here is a YouTube link presenting two of the three sonatas it contains. I can’t seem to find a CD version, however. Best regards, -- Al |
At the risk of being repetitive and/or argumentative all Mercury Living Presence CDs are in reverse polarity. That's out of phase to you civilians. |
To Al and others who are classical music listeners, I've discovered pianists Ivan Moravec and Tatiana Nikolyeva during my forays into this genre a few years ago. Anyone familiar with these two? I really enjoy both .
Charles |
It's funny how you buy a recording due to the featured or lead musician and inevitably discover other musicians previously unknown to you. This has happened to me on numerous occasions purchasing jazz recordings over the years. As familiar as I am with this genre it still occurs, obviously a reflection of the depth of talent that exists.
The Starker and Sebok collaboration is so pleasing to me that I'm going to seek out recordings featuring Gyorgy Sebok. In doing so I'll likely discover others as well. That's fine with me.
Charles |
grannyring
Gk, good point. My point of reference then would have to be other recordings of same genre. Still subjective based on what I have heard on other recordings. I have not heard MLP recodings on any other sources other then my system which is computer based with Roon/Tidal and ripped CDs.
i used to be a big with a capital "b" collector of Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo LPS and have the latest Mercury box set. I sold my Mercury and RCA LP collection for around $15K quite a few years ago, after I sold my Maplenoll Limited Ed. air bearing turntable with 500 feet of air tubing and two air buffers. All tube electronics with military voltage regulators for everything. I am pretty sure I know what Mercury Living Presence recordings are SUPPOSED to sound like. Mercury and RCA recordings also sound superb on cassette, by the way, full bodied and natural. :-) Tape is a natural medium. It breathes.
Cheers
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Gk, good point. My point of reference then would have to be other recordings of same genre. Still subjective based on what I have heard on other recordings. I have not heard MLP recodings on any other sources other then my system which is computer based with Roon/Tidal and ripped CDs.
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Gk if you are truly listening to MLP recordings on a walkman and headphones, I can pretty much assure you are missing something. That might explain your opinions on MLP. I’m trying to help you out here..... :^)
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mapman
GK if you truly think that about the MLP Cds (I doubt the sincerity of most everything you say) then you may have gotten some bad copies (I have almost 100 and none are bad) or else you may need to check out your Walkman for issues.
Ouch! Too much coffee, Mopman?
Mopman: All releases are somewhat different of course but MLP is consistently excellent.
The word excellent is meaningless. I never said they were terrible.
Mopman: What do you not understand about top notch?
Top notch means nothing to me. It means different things to different people. It’s a meaningless term in this hobby, that’s for sure.
Mopman: Your OCD is getting the best of you again.
ouch, again. Very ouch.
Mopman: You and your alternate facts. I suspect you are pretty lonely in this particular stance oh great seer!
Whoa! Get a grip, grasshopper. Look within. Actually now that you mention it, I don't crave confirmation, you know, like some folks I know.
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grannyring
I find the sound quality of the few MLP recordings I just listened to be full bodied and natural in tone with no upper mid or treble thinness or bite whatsoever. Very nice indeed.
I believe you. But compared to what? All these audiophile terms are completely subjective in nature. My "full bodied and natural" could be even more full bodied and natural than yours, no? I assume you are referring to CDs. If you compare the CD to the original LP I’m pretty sure you would agree with me the LP is more full bodied and natural. And if you take my advice and color the CD you will find the CD to sound more full bodied and natural. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. 😛
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I just replaced the stock fuse in the headlight wiring harness of my old Jeep with a black SR fuse and wow, the lumens are now off the charts.... its even brighter than the LEDs on my other fancy car.....
Just kidding...... but hey why not if it works on audio.... |
GK if you truly think that about the MLP Cds (I doubt the sincerity of most everything you say) then you may have gotten some bad copies (I have almost 100 and none are bad) or else you may need to check out your Walkman for issues.
All releases are somewhat different of course but MLP is consistently excellent and the best ones are among the best commercial recordings out there period.
What do you not understand about top notch?
Your OCD is getting the best of you again.
You and your alternate facts. I suspect you are pretty lonely in this particular stance oh great seer!
I will agree anything can be better. Let's all work on that one. |
I find the sound quality of the few MLP recordings I just listened to be full bodied and natural in tone with no upper mid or treble thinness or bite whatsoever. Very nice indeed. |
Charles & Bill (Grannyring), Sebok isn't nearly as well known as his cellist friend and teaching and recording colleague Janos Starker, but he was a wonderful pianist. I have two of the Mercury Living Presence LP's they did together, of cello and piano sonatas by Bach and Brahms. Both are treasures. Although I haven't listened to them in many years, mainly because both LPs suffered the consequences of being played many times on the "all-in-one" compact system I had during the 1970s, before I knew better :-) Wikipedia has a brief bio of Sebok, and some links to external references. Enjoy! Best regards, -- Al |
mapman
I have 1st 50 cd MLP box set and all ripped at original resolution to music server. It’s a wonderful sounding set with top notch sound quality overall. The sound quality MLP is renowned for is there in spades. Gk once again is spouting nonsense.
Speaking of resolution you clearly have some personal issues you need to resolve. Besides I’m pretty sure "top notch" is an extremely fuzzy way to describe the sound quality of anything. I would choose to say, by contrast, that in general MLP CDs tend to sound whimpy, threadbare, bass shy, two dimensional, honky, piercing, and like paper mache. Relatively speaking, of course.
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George,
I wish I knew how to post links, but I don't. But if you google "PS Audio fuses" you'll find two articles written by Paul McGowan regarding fuses. One is simply titled "Fuses" dated 2/29/16 and the other titled "Lighting the Fuse" dated 12/15/11. I don't share this to be combative, but to offer links showing manufacturers stating their belief that fuses can make a positive sonic benefit. Decware does also. I shall find Steve Deckerts thoughts on them and post them.
Quotes from his "Fuses" article....
"Here's a subject that drives some people nuts, fuses." ( Ain't that a fact!)
" I first became aware of fuses and their sonic differences in the 1980's."
" The point of the story is simple. Fuses matter. But why should they matter in an AC circuit? I don't have a great answer handy."
Quotes from "Lighting the Fuse" article.....
" I can't explain why some fuses with the identical wire whisker size sound differant but they surely do- a lot different."
" If your equipment has an internal fuse, give some thought to upgrading it to a better sounding variety."
So while the head of PS Audio clearly believes fuses can make a positive sonic difference, he's at a loss to explain why. He looks at fuses as a necessary safety evil and talks about equipment sounding better without them....but isn't advocating not using them! He also mentions how after spending so much on power cords and improving our power that it is all bottlenecked by a quarter inch of a whisker wire. Looking at it that way maybe the fuse is more important to than we thought?
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Wow. Listening to Sebok and Starker on The Mercury Living Presence label right now (Roon & Tidal). Brahms & Mendelssohn Cello Sonatas. It is just beautiful. Love to hear about other pieces like this beauty! |
Fleschler just wrote,
"Low bass performance on the Mercury CDs are not lacking at all in any of the 3 pressings. They sound veryI focused, dynamic and tonally correct."
Uh, there appears to be some disparity between your two statements regarding Mercury Liivng Presence CDs. Your first statement indicated some dissatisfaction with at least some of the Mercury CDs, to whit,
"I have two complete sets of the classical Mercury Living Presence CDs (as well as the boxed versions) in which many of them have tonally different sound, one set is generally brighter and more forward sounding and the other more rounded and less forward sounding. It’s a mystery as to why it is that way."
If they have tonally different sound, as you say, they can’t all have accurate tonality, no?
As for bass performance, everything is relative. You maybe perfectly content with yours but all I’m saying it can be improved. Everything can be improved. Can I suggest, as they say in Nebraska, you ain’t heard nothin yet?
Everything is relative. - A. Einstein
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Mapman,
With your 50 CD box set of MLP recordings you own far more than I do. I have a few MLP CDs of Janos Starker accompanied by pianist Gyorgy Sebok and both the music and recording sound quality are fabulous.
Al, I know you are an aficionado of the classical music genre. My classical music collection and knowledge is miniscule compared to jazz music. Gyorgy Sebok was a complete unknown to me up until 2 weeks ago. I spent hours a couple of weekends ago listening to him accompanying cellist Janos Starker, it was beautiful.
Al,
Are you familiar with Sebok?
Do you enjoy his playing?
What is his stature amongst the hierarchy of classical pianist (yes I know, purely subjective)?
Do you have any recordings of him and/or any suggested recommendations? As a classical music novice I really like him playing along with Starker.
Thanks,
Charles |
highstreamFleschler, not here! George, if you think that those of us who claim that fuses can make a difference are just gullible, why are spending your time here? In any case, you've made your point, so please move on.
You need to read my post again, it's not you I'm calling gullible, but the non fuser's that are easily led down the garden path, by the voodoo fuser's that state things like. " I find that the SR black fuses increase the color and certainly the texture of instruments. The added detail and ambience give more life to the music, not just leading edge transients." Still no manufactures links that state improved sound from these fuses. Cheers George |
I have 1st 50 cd MLP box set and all ripped at original resolution to music server. It's a wonderful sounding set with top notch sound quality overall. The sound quality MLP is renowned for is there in spades. Gk once again is spouting nonsense.
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Low bass performance on the Mercury CDs are not lacking at all in any of the 3 pressings. They sound veryI focused, dynamic and tonally correct. I also have about 50 RFR and FR Lps and most of the Golden Presence(?) reissues. The early LPs vary in sound quality much more than the CDs. I highly recommend the CDs and reissues. My primary CD playback equipment consists of an EAR Acute player with early large O getter Amperex output tubes, Stillpoint ultra SS and custom wiring. Even on my Kyocera 310 CD player, the CDs sound great and analog like. |
Fleschler
"I know this could lead to another round of controversy, but multiple pressings of CDs can have variable audio quality from the same pressing plant, in other words, they don’t sound necessarily alike. There is no electrical or physical reason that I’ve found or my friend Robert has found, but the proof in the pudding, listening to one after another. One CD can sound brighter/duller/tonally richer/thinner, etc. than another or they may sound alike. I have two complete sets of the classical Mercury Living Presence CDs (as well as the boxed versions) in which many of them have tonally different sound, one set is generally brighter and more forward sounding and the other more rounded and less forward sounding. It’s a mystery as to why it is that way."
In the case of Mercury Living Presence CDs, I can think of several things that affect their sound, the single CDs or the box sets. One is that the Mercury Living Presence CDs are apparently in reverse absolute polarity. At least according to George Louis, the Polarity Pundit. I tend to agree with that assessment generally, given the lack of low bass performance compared to LP versions, for example, and a tendency to sound rather unfocused and whimpy and tonality incorrect. Also, the area around the spindle hole is usually solid metal, which degrades the sound, rather than clear plastic. A CD with clear center will sound better than the same CD with a metal center, all things being equal. A Drexel tool can be used to remove the offending thin metal disc around the spindle hole. Third, the iconic Black and White label is bad for the sound. Coloring the outer edge red and the inner edge black improves the sound of any Mercury Living Presence CD quite noticeably. |
... multiple pressings of CDs can have variable audio quality from the same pressing plant, in other words, they don’t sound necessarily alike. There is no electrical or physical reason that I’ve found or my friend Robert has found, but the proof in the pudding, listening to one after another. One CD can sound brighter/duller/tonally richer/thinner, etc. than another or they may sound alike. I don’t find that surprising. Assuming (as appears to be the case) that the data on the CDs being compared is identical, a possible explanation relates to minor physical differences that may exist between the pits or other physical characteristics of the two discs. Differences that might have resulted from aging and use of the pressing equipment that may have occurred between creation of the pressings being compared, or perhaps from the use of different equipment, or perhaps just from normal +/- tolerances in the pressing process. Those physical differences could conceivably result in one disc being "easier" than the other for the tracking servos in the player to track, resulting in less electrical noise being generated by the transport mechanism, resulting in less noise finding its way into the D/A circuitry (even if that circuitry is in a different component), resulting in less timing jitter at the point of D/A conversion. Undoubtedly there are other conceivable explanations involving comparably subtle technical effects. As an experienced EE I for one don’t doubt any of the claims or statements in your post just above. I do, however, doubt that fuses are inherently directional :-) Regards, -- Al |
Audio equipment which can measure the same (such as amps), can sound vastly different (unless one is Julian Hirsch). Tubes and wire can measure the same and again sound totally different. LPs which are pressed consecutively using the same stampers can sound very different. Why, that is mostly unknown except for equipment which may mean the measurement of difference was not measured.
As a former commercial real estate appraiser, I made adjustments to sales and rentals based on factual data. Unfortunately, data was often missing which could have influenced the adjustments. I had to make an educated opinion as to which facts were given more or less weight in the adjustment. (Complex properties involved much more complex adjustments than illustrated).
However, my point is that the SR Black fuse in my audio systems has a profound positive musical affect. I do not know why it does so but I (and over a dozen friends and remastering engineers) hear the result. That is why buying LPs on-line is often a crapshoot with sellers often unknowlingly ascribing incorrect condition to them either by ignorance of factors in determining condition or hidden condition (mint looking but poorly manufactured or abused i.e. mistracking, ground in debris, etc).
I know this could lead to another round of controversy, but multiple pressings of CDs can have variable audio quality from the same pressing plant, in other words, they don't sound necessarily alike. There is no electrical or physical reason that I've found or my friend Robert has found, but the proof in the pudding, listening to one after another. One CD can sound brighter/duller/tonally richer/thinner, etc. than another or they may sound alike. I have two complete sets of the classical Mercury Living Presence CDs (as well as the boxed versions) in which many of them have tonally different sound, one set is generally brighter and more forward sounding and the other more rounded and less forward sounding. It's a mystery as to why it is that way.
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Hey! Whoa! I guess this must be another episode of 12 Angry Men. Or maybe Grouchy Old Men.
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GK you are a talking (walking I assume as well) advertisement for whatever sedation of choice others might choose. Doesn't matter though since OP is footing the bill.
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mapman
Just for the record, GK and I are NOT like-minded. :^)
It would appear I dodged a bullet. A mind is a terrible thing to have. 😬
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Just for the record, Gk and I are NOT like-minded. :^)
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jmcgrogan2
"Let’s talk politics and/or religion!!!! ;^)
Or maybe setup another forum for non-believers, like Audio Asylum does with Propeller Head Plaza."
If you think Propeller Head Plaza attracts the non-believers wait’ll ya get a load of Isolation Ward. 😎
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Again, this thread is like a bunch of like minded guys sitting around the local bar discussing a common interest. Every once in a while "someone" has a little too much amber liquid and gets out of hand. Once sobered up, we all hope "he" comes back at a later date and will be civil. So far ... no luck ... Yea, but Frank, its your turn to finally pick up the tab. |
A difference of opinion, and a civil discourse regarding the same, is a good thing ... its the way we learn.
Again,
this thread is like a bunch of like minded guys sitting around the
local bar discussing a common interest. Every once in a while "someone"
has a little too much amber liquid and gets out of hand. Once sobered
up, we all hope "he" comes back at a later date and will be civil. So
far ... no luck.
+1. Well said, Frank. Best regards, -- Al |
^^^ Thanks, Charles. I'll check them out.
Mapman sez:
"
OP I know you are just joking but discounting engineers does not help. You’d have no sound at all in your home without them. Are you defending lack of information? "
Mapman ... I have nothing against engineers. Some of my best friends are engineers ... :-)
And by the way Mapman ... I, for one, do not want you to leave this thread. I enjoy your sense of humor. You don't indulge in personal attacks, nor do you insult people. A difference of opinion, and a civil discourse regarding the same, is a good thing ... its the way we learn.
Again, this thread is like a bunch of like minded guys sitting around the local bar discussing a common interest. Every once in a while "someone" has a little too much amber liquid and gets out of hand. Once sobered up, we all hope "he" comes back at a later date and will be civil. So far ... no luck.
Frank |
Frank, I know you enjoy the vibraphone as much as I do. Here's a list of 4 current/active jazz vibraphonists who are all first rate musicians. 1 Jay Hoggard 2 Steve Nelson 3 Stephon Harris 4 Jason Marsalis I believe you'd really like them. Charles |
Hi Frank, Thanks for the follow up information regarding the 1928 recordings. One thing they had in their favor (by default) DHT tubes powered electronic equipment LOL. Charles |
I certainly don't understand how the SR fuses effect the sound of our components, nor do I understand how it's impossible that they can't do so. Nor do I care. If my investment in the fuses only brought about imaginary acoustical benefits it was well worth it. Measurements and specifications never were real important to me, only the music is.........and to my ears the SR fuses add realism to the music that further my enjoyment greatly.
Conversely, I can understand not being able to believe in that which you can't verify with scientific reasoning or measuring. I can't provide scientific reason as to how SR fuses improve the sound anymore than any scientific reasoning can tell me I'm not hearing what I'm hearing. Seems to be a never ending act of futility for either side to convince the other.
Heres to us believers enjoying our music with the fuses and to those enjoying their music without them. Cheers! |
Isn't that a form of segregation? |
Hey, I got an idea how to end all of this "Taste Great" /"Less Filling", fuse works great/ no it does not debate!!
Let's talk politics and/or religion!!!! ;^)
Or maybe setup another forum for non-believers, like Audio Asylum does with Propeller Head Plaza. |
highstream how about this. I’ll make you happy and leave if everyone else who has listened and formed an opinion does too.
Thing is if I let others chase me off, then those remaining get to further their claim (which has been made) that what is said here must always be true because most or all people here say so.
Attempts to banish opposing views kinda always work out that way. Happens everyday all over the internet in particular with some very important issues that really matter much more than this little obsession of ours..
You should really just stand firm in your beliefs and consider resisting the urge to banish people for their opinions. It could well happen to you someday.
Deal? |
mapman, the test is what you hear. If that hasn't changed, what's the point? Sure, read on if you want to see if an explanation about fuses pops up that satisfies you, and then maybe the jump back in. But even if it did/does, that still wouldn't change what you hear.
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Which leads to a second observation, really a question: mapman, having come to your conclusion, why didn’t you move on?
My results may or may not reflect those of others. Do yours? My mind is still open to learn. Is yours? |
jetter
Actually, and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there were two problems, the smallest was that the results were not measurable, but the largest was that it is not possible for an object not in the music signal path to impact the music signal (sound). Other than the possible impact of allowing more or less power to the unit than the stock fuse.
I could have it all wrong though, and don't want to rock the boat (titanic).
You are wrong. No offense.
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As I wrote, I’ve been working my way through this thread, now at page 22. There’s something I would have written then, an observation - not mediation - that still seems relevant. Namely, lay off mapman - and mapman, what are you still doing here? As to the first, mapman was very clear that he did not hear the differences most others were reporting, and that in his approach he is uncomfortable with changes, e.g., tweaks, that can’t be sufficiently explained, at least to his thinking. That’s a perfectly principled opinion, but wasn’t accepted; a few frequent contributors made clear they weren’t going to let it go. There may be no cult or perhaps clique here, but some people sure started to act like it. And here we are, a few dozen web pages and many months later, and it’s still going on! It’s almost as if there’s little or nothing to talk about if the exchange doesn’t keep on. Which leads to a second observation, really a question: mapman, having come to your conclusion, why didn’t you move on? Perhaps there’s something in the 45 ensuing pages that explains why this continues, but from the discussion now it sure reads like a process - more like a sore - that’s built on itself. In any case, it doesn’t make for pleasant, informative or thought provoking reading to this new entrant (who has three blacks on order to see first how they do in my nearfield desktop system vs. Furutechs).
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Actually, and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there were two problems, the smallest was that the results were not measurable, but the largest was that it is not possible for an object not in the music signal path to impact the music signal (sound). Other than the possible impact of allowing more or less power to the unit than the stock fuse. I could have it all wrong though, and don't want to rock the boat (titanic). |
Atmasphere Almarg and perhaps some other respected EEs here have weighed in. I’d offer an invitation for more EEs that might be out there to weigh in as well.
" Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules. "
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Mapman wrote,
"I’m pretty sure Geoffkait is an advocate and he does that consistently all the time when challenged and shows no signs of ever relenting. As long as he is on your side I guess that makes it OK?"
I advocate for truth. Unlike the trolls, who are in denial. Rule number one for audio arguments - never show up to a gun fight with a knife.
then Mapman wrote,
"The main problem is lack of information about the product to help convince the doubters and settle the arguments.. I think that’s one of Wolfs pet peeves and mine also."
That’s kinda why you guys are in the group that’s the opposite of ADVANCED audiophiles. Even when presented with the information you - like Al, Ralph and Wolfie - either can’t see it, don’t see it or pretend not to see it. None so blind that will not see. Besides you can never change the mind of a pseudo skeptic. It's the Backfire Effect in full bloom. Furthermore no self respecting pseudo skeptic wiped ever admit he was wrong in front of other pseudo skeptics.
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OP I know you are just joking but discounting engineers does not help. You’d have no sound at all in your home without them.
Are you defending lack of information?
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